237 réponses à ce sujet

[Unrefined-Nemesis]

A Grey Warden's duty is to kill all Darkspawn and prevent any further blights from occurring.



Based on the Calling, Architect's plan to make everyone hybrids so that they can understand each other seems a little extreme especially the cost for it to succeed.



Architect was the the sole reason that the blight had occurred if he had not started the blight, King Cailan would not have died, Loghain would not behave the way he did and Arl Howe would have not wiped out the Cousland. Many lives could have been saved.



The Architect's actions contradict his words, therefore I killed him.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I've spared and killed the architect. When I killed him, my reasons were as follows:



1. He lacks perspective to be trusted to experiment safely.

2. Making darkspawn smarter and freer makes them stronger. I do not strengthen my enemies.

3. His experiments have a habit of turning out disasterous. Even if he decides not to perform the same experiments again, new experiments could still prove disasterous

4. The calling: his ultimate plan for "peace"...I dunno if that's still his agenda or not.

[MagicalSarai]

Actually that's false logic... by making a single assumption that one event spawned a series of other evil events.



Loghain showed what kind of bigot that he was. No matter what, he would always have anger for the Orleasians. Howe was a vicious man, no matter what he would have been after power. The architect tried to do something good for his people and it ended up failing. This provided an opening for evil men to do evil things... had the Blight not happened, this people would have still ended up doing something else. Cailan was idealistic and naive... he would have gotten himself killed eventually, either in battle or in an coup.



Unlike the other people you mentioned, the Architect is willing to not only RECOGNIZE his mistake, but he has been actively trying to fix it as well. A Warden's duty is to combat the Darkspawn threat... by helping the architect make the Darkspawn sentient and capable of decisions... it is the better action in the long run. Remove their taint, their mindlessness, and you can prevent another blight from ever happening. Kill the Architect and you cannot ever have a hope of preventing another blight. Darkspawn will always exist, you couldn't scour all of the deep roads enough to wipe them from the face of Ferelden.

[Zeleen]

I killed the Architect- He is a darkspawn- intelligent but, in my opinion Very Dangerous.

Mother is his product by the way!!  All we need is more of them.

Modifié par Zeleen, 16 avril 2010 - 02:29 .

[hazarkazra]

Well, in my game I did one try where I heard him out because I was interested in what he had to say, but my official story ment I killed him before he had anything to say. Reasons to kill him *which are surely repeated in this thing*



-Most intelligent life seemed to rely on his guidance. There was no way to assure that when the Architect for whatever reason went away they would continue the path he chose

-His path has been filled with a bad understanding of ethics. His experiments could be considered evil. Nothing assures me that later on in the spirit of "furthering his race" he wouldn't do something like that again

-He himself said the creation of the Mother 'clan' was unavoidable due to them having free will. The more darkspawn gain intelligence the greater the numbers of these fallen, the greater threat it would pose to the other races. He even has no way to assure the Fallen might end up being the dominant intelligence Dark Spawn force instead of his.

-He could simply be lying, only using you to create a force intelligent enough to take over the surface.

-Darkspawn rely on the corruption of other races for reproduction. Sooner or later, they will need more of us.



End of the day, the darkspawn no matter how dangerous are a predictable threat. Making intelligent darkspawn makes them unpredictable. Awakening showed how much damage a handfull of intelligent darkspawn can cause. As a Grey Warden commander that risk was too great.

[jenncgf]

(SOME SPOILERS - JUST IN CASE)

I did not kill the Architect. I based this on my PC's 'knowledge' of him rather than anything in the Calling (which I haven't read yet, so that makes this perspective a lot easier to roleplay).

Based on what my PC would know of the Architect, that being only what Awakening reveals, it sounded like he was trying to further a goal that was in direct harmony with what my PC was doing - that being removing the threat of the blight from Ferelden. The problem, of course, is that the Architect never reveals his master plan (assuming his master plan 20 years later would still be to create human/darkspawn hybrids). It does become obvious that the Architect is smart enough to only reveal that which he feels my PC would want to hear (the conversation between the Architect, the Mother, and the PC at the end), but seeing as everyone else seems to do the same thing, I viewed that as a given.

So it was a leap of faith for my PC, but based on the Architect's demeanor (he seemed genuinely regretful about starting the most recent Blight, etc) she let him go, hoping for the best.   The demeanor in addition to the little information she was given convinced her that she needed to give this creature a chance.  (As a side note, she also went after the werewolves turning into humans ending of Nature of the Beast, and she let Zev live when he tried to assassinate her - the precedent was there that if the opposition showed some willingness to learn from past mistakes, she was willing to try and not seek enduring revenge.)

Modifié par jenncgf, 16 avril 2010 - 02:51 .

[Bowie Hawkins]

I killed him, not because of his experimentation (although the possibility that he might have created a phylactery from my blood was worrisome), but rather because he was creating a new Blight by giving darkspawn free will and guidance. And also because, if I let him live, it would only be a matter of time before he created another Mother. She was too great a menace to allow him the chance to make more of her.

[Xandurpein]

I killed him because the Darkspawn are a parasitic life form. They need to capture, violate and destroy females, turning them into Broodmothers to propagate. It doesn't matter is some of them turn intelligent and can be reasoned with. They cannot be allowed to breed as long as that means violating women, and until they volountarily decide to stop creating Broodmothers they must be stopped.

[DragonShepard138]

I've killed him on one characters playthrough, and I've spared him on my other two characters playthroughs.



Reasons to keep him alive:



-he claims to want to end the blights

-he is in a faction of darkspawn that is against another faction

-he helps with the mother battle (one less enemy)



Reasons to kill him



-darkspawn, regardless of intelligence is still a darkspawn, he just may be more cunning and have a backup plan

-one less darkspawn, and a powerful one will be gone if you do kill him

-bloodlust it makes you kill anyone that you can

[JaegerBane]

MagicalSarai wrote...
Unlike the other people you mentioned, the Architect is willing to not only RECOGNIZE his mistake, but he has been actively trying to fix it as well. A Warden's duty is to combat the Darkspawn threat... by helping the architect make the Darkspawn sentient and capable of decisions... it is the better action in the long run. Remove their taint, their mindlessness, and you can prevent another blight from ever happening. Kill the Architect and you cannot ever have a hope of preventing another blight. Darkspawn will always exist, you couldn't scour all of the deep roads enough to wipe them from the face of Ferelden.

You're not removing their taint. The taint will always be a part of the darkspawn. It's flat out silly to claim that working to spread the taint will 'help' as it'll just mean more deaths for all the common races.

You need to re-think what you're saying here. Helping the Architect will prevent another blight in the same way that drowning a patient will stop them from dying of cancer. You're defeating the object of what you're trying to achieve. Grey Wardens don't exist purely to stop blights and only blights.

To be honest, killing the architect was one of the easier decisions of the game. The guy doesn't seem to have a grasp of the collateral damage he's causing and he doesn't seem to understand the concept that people don't really want to be infected with a zombie disease just to help the darkspawn survive. Ultimately, the darkspawn's biggest weakness is their stupidity. Anything that tries to remove that weakness makes itself a big fat target for level 30+ Warden Commander.

[JaegerBane]

Xandurpein wrote...

I killed him because the Darkspawn are a parasitic life form. 

I think that pretty much ends the argument. Ultimately the Darkspawn cannot exist without preying on other races, no matter how you slice it. It doesn't matter what spiel that freak blurts out about free will - ultimately he cannot provide a single shred of evidence as to how the continued existence of darkspawn will benefit anyone but themselves, so he got a blade in the face and a Fireball in the mouth.

[traversc]

I killed him because more loot.

[sleepingbelow]

Go Big or go home.

If you want to be RESPONSIBLE, yeah, sure, kill the Architect.  Boring!  

Also, I hope you're not playing a character that took Morrigan's dark deal.  That dude (or dudette)?  He was Awesome with a capital 'A'.  He risked unleashing the unknown power of a reborn Old God on Thedas to save his life and the life of his or her friend.  Also, how often do you get to save the day by taking off your pants?  It might come back to bite the Warden in the ass, but it was awesome.  The responsible, "My duty is to kill darkspawn" choice is to sacrifice yourself killing the Archdemon to make the world safe.  So if I kill the Architect in a playthrough, I'll either do it with an Orlesian Warden or a female Warden that got suckered at the end by a lovesick Alistair ("See ya, hotness!").

My point is that any character that survives making that choice should be a character that believes in taking big chances.  There are big pros and cons to both sides of the Architect question.  But the big money option rests in a good ol' comic book style team up.

What's that you say?  The big loss also rests on the side of siding with the Architect?  We might have a sentient darkspawn Blight in a few decades?  Well that's awesome, too.  From a dramatic perspective.

What's more interesting?

A)  The Architect?  Oh yeah, that's some guy I killed because he sucked.  Mad scientist type.

 The Architect?  Damn his blighted heart, he tricked me all those years ago!  Now his Darkspawn Under-Empire threatens to consume all of Thedas!  Only I have the power to stop him!  Only I understand him.  It is my responsibility to correct the mistake I made all those years ago.  No matter what the cost.

IS THIS EVEN A QUESTION?!  Characters are more interesting with flaws and baggage and mistakes.  

Sometimes really big mistakes make your character more interesting.  Bioware may never revisit that choice, but the ambiguity and possibility of that story would certainly live on in my mind.  If I imagine a happily ever after for a Grey Warden, that basically means I'm imagining them sitting around and getting fat until they have to go to their Calling.  Which I don't like.

You might say that it sounds like I would cause a catastrophe to make things more dramatic.  Well my character wouldn't.  But I've already given you my character's motivation for choosing to rock out with the Architect.  He's a lateral thinker.  He goes for the big win.

But, as a player, I would.  I'm not my character, I'm helping choose my character's story.  Which is more interesting if he or she doesn't do everything right.  Which is more interesting if he or she chooses to make the BIG choice, rather than the safe one.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 17 avril 2010 - 12:39 .

[sleepingbelow]

Also, I think I have a different view of what a Blight is. People here have said it is a "known" quantity. I feel that EVERY Blight is potentially the end of the world. The more people they kill, the more women they take, the more land they infect, the faster they can pump out Darkspawn. If Fereldan fell at the battle of Denerim, I feel it would have been a lot more clear that it was an apocalypse situation, because the Darkspawn would have changed from legion to horde. Fereldan would have become Blighted so hard it would be like Chernobyl. In DAO, you get crazy lucky by shutting it down early. Taking a chance to stop that from happening two more times might just be worth it, because a Blight is never REALLY a known quantity.

[Kerendar]

Why is everyone ignoring the disciples? I dont get it. Taking up the way you just presented the outcomes, it could just as well go like this:

A) The Architect? Damn my ass for killing him. Should've seen it coming one of his disciples would take up his work and unlike him not care for peace! Now we're being overrun by intelligent Armored Ogres with NO holes in their armor!

The Architect? Bless that beast, took all his fellow brood to the "deeper" deep roads, dwarves love me now! *drinks his xth cup of dwarven ale, looking at the awesome 100 foot statue of himself*

You never know

Modifié par Kerendar, 17 avril 2010 - 09:20 .

[JaegerBane]

sleepingbelow wrote...

Also, I think I have a different view of what a Blight is. People here have said it is a "known" quantity. I feel that EVERY Blight is potentially the end of the world. The more people they kill, the more women they take, the more land they infect, the faster they can pump out Darkspawn. If Fereldan fell at the battle of Denerim, I feel it would have been a lot more clear that it was an apocalypse situation, because the Darkspawn would have changed from legion to horde. Fereldan would have become Blighted so hard it would be like Chernobyl. In DAO, you get crazy lucky by shutting it down early. Taking a chance to stop that from happening two more times might just be worth it, because a Blight is never REALLY a known quantity.

This doesn't make sense. It's true that every blight is potentially an apocalypse scenario. But consider what a blight actually is. It's the onslaught of the taint across the land, the multplication of darkspawn and their manipulation into a directed horde, and it's death to the vast majority of thedas.

Uh.... how does this actually differ from what the architect is suggesting? Beyond the tiny detail that this time, the darkspawn are functioning more like an army than a horde?

Accepting the Architect's proposal is nothing less than flat out idiocy. You have absolutely no reason to trust him and his prior actions so far include setting off blights and improving the intelligence of the darkspawn. You might as well have accepted Uldred's proposal, it would have made as much sense.

[Damoadrthade]

I let him live once to see that prespective on the story and killed him every other time because at the end of the day a Darkspawn is a Darspawn and the pc is a Grey Warden and regardless of there intentions they still spread the taint.

[sleepingbelow]

JaegerBane wrote...

This doesn't make sense. It's true that every blight is potentially an apocalypse scenario. But consider what a blight actually is. It's the onslaught of the taint across the land, the multplication of darkspawn and their manipulation into a directed horde, and it's death to the vast majority of thedas.

Uh.... how does this actually differ from what the architect is suggesting? Beyond the tiny detail that this time, the darkspawn are functioning more like an army than a horde?

Accepting the Architect's proposal is nothing less than flat out idiocy. You have absolutely no reason to trust him and his prior actions so far include setting off blights and improving the intelligence of the darkspawn. You might as well have accepted Uldred's proposal, it would have made as much sense.

It is not idiocy.

The way I saw it, those two Blights are going to happen if you kill the Architect.  It is a given.  It is just a matter of time.  The two Old Gods are out there, and it is improbable that you're going to clear all the darkspawn out of the Deep Roads.

Ignoring the fact you certainly don't KNOW the Architect caused the last Blight when it is time to cut a deal, he's an X factor that needs to be examined closely.  Yes, he's giving the darkspawn intelligence.  Will it have the same directed, single minded aggression of a Blight hivemind directed by an Archdemon?  Probably not.  The darkspawn have been intelligent for what, five minutes and already they're in the middle of a civil war?  But ignore that for a second.  Like the Architect says when the Warden suggests that maybe the darkspawn don't want to be free.  You won't know until you give it a shot.  

And maybe that is a shot that we should give 'em.  Velanna's sister says she has seen them overcome their bestial nature.  Admittedly she was a ghoul, but she seemed articulate and appeared mostly sane, unlike ghouls you had encountered previously.  We know darkspawn are parasites and monstrous, but we also don't really know everything about them.  The Architect sounds like he'd make a pretty good go of leaving humanity alone.  So put on your big boy pants, and let us explore the scary possibilities.

I would tentatively suggest that taking his offer doesn't really hurt your odds that much.  Assume that every "Blight" type event has a fifty fifty chance of wiping out humanity.  Humanity's chance of surviving the two Blights are therefore one in four.  

The Architect may be lying, he may not be.  If he is, he will subject Thedas to a third Blight type event.  Humanity has a one in eight chance of surviving three Blight type events.  But if he isn't lying, you don't have to deal with any of that.  Give that a fifty fifty chance and you're back to the one in four chance of humanity making it through all major darkspawn related events.

I mention this because I think people might suggest the idea that we're risking an extra Blight.  I'm suggesting it evens out more or less.  So we should continue look at things that tip the scale either way.

Yeah, you say darkspawn acting like an army is the worst thing since sliced broccolli.  It is true that the Mother gave Amaranthine quite a hammering.  I say, they were intelligent for like five minutes before they started infighting. Also, darkspawn use tactics anyway when a Blight is happening.  They're controlled by a corrupted god.

Yeah, you've got reasons not to trust the Architect.  You can go ahead and list them if you're not repeating yourself.  You've also got reasons to trust him.  He's exposing himself to you and flying a white flag for no other reason then to negotiate.  If he was really a mastermind, he would have waited until you and the Mother fought, then sent his forces along with Utha to mop up the wounded survivor.  We could list off a lot more indicators that he's approaching you in good faith, but I'm just saying, there are reasons.  If you think there are none, you're not paying attention.

Let's continue to catalogue the various pros and cons, but let's not call it is not idiocy, unless you're calling every companion character that wants to take the deal an idiot.  If you're calling Nathaniel an idiot, thems fightin' words.  You might think they're wrong, but it is still a valid gamble with valid reasons.  Those characters aren't written to be idiots.  The Architect's decision isn't written to be clear cut and thinking that the choice is easy for everyone shows a certain inflexibility.  Allow yourself to think outside the box.

But in the end, not siding with the Architect is yawn-city and your Warden sounds super fat.

Modifié par sleepingbelow, 17 avril 2010 - 07:06 .

[sleepingbelow]

Kerendar wrote...

Why is everyone ignoring the disciples? I dont get it. Taking up the way you just presented the outcomes, it could just as well go like this:

A) The Architect? Damn my ass for killing him. Should've seen it coming one of his disciples would take up his work and unlike him not care for peace! Now we're being overrun by intelligent Armored Ogres with NO holes in their armor!

The Architect? Bless that beast, took all his fellow brood to the "deeper" deep roads, dwarves love me now! *drinks his xth cup of dwarven ale, looking at the awesome 100 foot statue of himself*

You never know

You're right!  I didn't consider that.

[JaegerBane]

sleepingbelow wrote...
The way I saw it, those two Blights are going to happen if you kill the Architect.  It is a given.  It is just a matter of time.  The two Old Gods are out there, and it is improbable that you're going to clear all the darkspawn out of the Deep Roads.

Ignoring the fact you certainly don't KNOW the Architect caused the last Blight when it is time to cut a deal, he's an X factor that needs to be examined closely.  Yes, he's giving the darkspawn intelligence.  Will it have the same directed, single minded aggression of a Blight hivemind directed by an Archdemon?  Probably not.  The darkspawn have been intelligent for what, five minutes and already they're in the middle of a civil war?  But ignore that for a second.  Like the Architect says when the Warden suggests that maybe the darkspawn don't want to be free.  You won't know until you give it a shot.  

If I'm understanding you correctly, your argument rests on the basis that dealing with him lessens the chances of future blights. While that in isolation is a fair point, the second you bring in *any* of the caveats that are attached - such as the widespread propagation of the taint - it falls apart. You don't seem to be grasping that irrespective of what the Darkspawn want, the taint spreading across the entire world will cause utter devastation. Every shred of evidence that we have shows that the taint would, effectively, destroy the ecosystem, cull vast swathes of the population. And that is ignoring the fact that everything we know about the Darkspawn would imply that the violence would simply carry on, too. The very presence of the Darkspawn causes damage.

And for this colossal price, what are we getting? Uh, well, we don't have to fight another archdemon (which means dick when the world has already been ruined) and, uh, the Darkspawn continue as a race.

This isn't a sensible deal to make. The sole thing the races of Thedas are getting from the deal is that the next 'blight' (which is effectively what the architect is proposing) won't have a head to cut off in the form of the archdemon.

As I said, flat out idiocy.

And maybe that is a shot that we should give 'em.  Velanna's sister says she has seen them overcome their bestial nature.  Admittedly she was a ghoul, but she seemed articulate and appeared mostly sane, unlike ghouls you had encountered previously.  We know darkspawn are parasites and monstrous, but we also don't really know everything about them.  The Architect sounds like he'd make a pretty good go of leaving humanity alone.  So put on your big boy pants, and let us explore the scary possibilities.

For what reason should we give them a shot? What actual benefit in the long run are we getting from assisting the spread of the Darkspawn? I can understand what the Architect would get, but what actual obligation do the races of thedas have to assist? None. It's all weighted in the Darkspawn's favour. They get to survive, and the races of thedas get to co-exist in a ruined world. Not good enough.

I would tentatively suggest that taking his offer doesn't really hurt your odds that much.  Assume that every "Blight" type event has a fifty fifty chance of wiping out humanity.  Humanity's chance of surviving the two Blights are therefore one in four.  

The Architect may be lying, he may not be.  If he is, he will subject Thedas to a third Blight type event.  Humanity has a one in eight chance of surviving three Blight type events.  But if he isn't lying, you don't have to deal with any of that.  Give that a fifty fifty chance and you're back to the one in four chance of humanity making it through all major darkspawn related events.

Ignoring the fact that using statistics plucked out of thin air will produce a meaningless result, all of this is assuming that the architect's plan will somehow ensure our survival. It doesn't.

I mention this because I think people might suggest the idea that we're risking an extra Blight.  I'm suggesting it evens out more or less.  So we should continue look at things that tip the scale either way.

You seem to have got this a bit backwards. If the odds actually do even out (something that you have absolutely know way of knowing), it still doesn't change the fact that going with the Architect's plan will increase the capability of the Darkspawn to wage war. We already know the taint will inflict massive damage no matter what and we have overwhelming evidence to suggest that any new found intelligence will find itself being used against the other races.

Ultimately, I agree that another Blight scenario will happen. The difference is that without the architect, that next blight will have a known method of stopping it. With him, it will not.

Yeah, you say darkspawn acting like an army is the worst thing since sliced broccolli.  It is true that the Mother gave Amaranthine quite a hammering.  I say, they were intelligent for like five minutes before they started infighting. Also, darkspawn use tactics anyway when a Blight is happening.  They're controlled by a corrupted god.

This is irrelevant. I'm not really sure whether you've forgotten the core concept of the discussion, but the reason blights are so dangerous is *because* the Darkspawn act with far more purpose and direction then they normally do. The fact they spend the majority of time stupid and restless is what keeps the world safe - Civil war or not, do you *actually think* the fact they'll turn on each other somehow means everyone else will be safe? Seriously?

Yeah, you've got reasons not to trust the Architect.  You can go ahead and list them if you're not repeating yourself.  You've also got reasons to trust him.  He's exposing himself to you and flying a white flag for no other reason then to negotiate.  If he was really a mastermind, he would have waited until you and the Mother fought, then sent his forces along with Utha to mop up the wounded survivor.  We could list off a lot more indicators that he's approaching you in good faith, but I'm just saying, there are reasons.  If you think there are none, you're not paying attention.

I'm not saying that there are no reasons. I'm simply saying that there are no reasons that are good enough to take the risk.

Let's continue to catalogue the various pros and cons, but let's not call it is not idiocy, unless you're calling every companion character that wants to take the deal an idiot.  If you're calling Nathaniel an idiot, thems fightin' words.  You might think they're wrong, but it is still a valid gamble with valid reasons.  Those characters aren't written to be idiots.  The Architect's decision isn't written to be clear cut and thinking that the choice is easy for everyone shows a certain inflexibility.  Allow yourself to think outside the box.

This would be the same nathaniel who decided to kill the hero of ferelden before he understood what had happened with his father?

It's all very well dropping catchphrases in such as 'thinking outside the box' but ultimately the evidence if fairly clear. Continued expansion of the taint *will* cause devastation. Arguing against this is just silly, as every single instance of it happening is clearly negative. As I said before, using such a catchphrase here makes as much sense as advising what to do with Uldred's offer to be turned into a 10-foot tall demon. 'Thinking outside the box' tends to waver in the face of raw facts.

[Timmibal]

He had the guards killed in the Wending Woods, and tossed in a mass grave. Killed the elves in the wood, then staged the battle to make it look like the humans did it to put them at odds. The result was Velanna ambushed caravans, nearly crippling the economy in the region. Darkspawn minions also attacked my group in the woods.

And an Orlesian/Qunari/Tevinter force during a time of war would not have?



The joining is invariably fatal. Why? Because Grey Wardens eventually become ghouls and go mad, or because they do kamikaze runs through the Deep Roads. The Architect has sane ghouls AND Darkspawn in his entourage. He offers you and the other Grey Wardens a chance to change that. Imagine that. A long and happy life without the possibility of madness with your family/clan/caste/LI/pool-o-gold-ale-and-wenches.



Also, the actions of the messenger suggest a semblance of humanity birthing within the Awakened. Do you think the Awakened are not aware of the monstrosity of their corruption and creation? Is it not possible that they would welcome the possibility of a life in peace, free from scavenging and cannibalizing within the depths of the earth? With the awakened striving for peace and the wardens and mages freed from the possibility of a blight, is it not possible that the corruption of the taint might be mitigated/cured?

[xedgorex]

Ive let him live in one and let him die in one.

And through reading this my convictions of killing him have grown stronger but i'm also starting to wonder if through leaving him alive you somehow can develop a 'cure' for the joining.

im quite attached to my wardens and dont want to see them go crazy at 30.

[Kerendar]

Timmibal wrote...
The joining is invariably fatal. Why?
Because Grey Wardens eventually become ghouls and go mad, or because
they do kamikaze runs through the Deep Roads. The Architect has sane
ghouls AND Darkspawn in his entourage.

Utha is no ghoul. A ghoul isa mindless creature by default. Utha is what becomes of a dwarf when exposed to the taint in the long run. This is what grey wardens would become if they dont go on their calling. Going mad is only temporary. What the architect does is increase the speed of the process, so you skip the "going mad" part.

JaegerBane wrote...
This would be the same nathaniel who decided to kill the hero of ferelden before he understood what had happened with his father?

Son loves father, hero killed father, whole family lost its honor, son kills hero. Perfectly understandable, reason has no weight when it comes to blindly avenging your family. That has nothing to do with stupidity/intelligence.

Back to the architect. You base your whole argumentation on the architects pland in the calling. I for one think his plans have changed.
His initial plan was to make dwarves/elves/humans into the final stadium of grey wardens, as described above, thus killing the major part of the population. The result of this would be that his mindless fellow darkspawn would have no longer the urge to kill them sice they're very much like darkspawn themselves (the game does a very bad job in showing this. utha should actually look like a dwarf/genlock mix, but than again she shouldnt be fighting with a sword either ^^
This plan is not evil in the architects eyes, its functional. He simply doesnt have the necessary understanding of the other races and doesnt realize they wont se it as a reasonable plan.

Then the architect had to face the fact that there is no chance in persuading the other races to do that. Now you think he then made an addition to his plan: make darkspawn intelligent and force the others into becoming like darkspawn or die. That is possible, very much so, but it's not the only possibility. I think its wrong.

What I think happened is that the architect dropped his plan for lack of having a chance to become reality.
His new plan: Free his race of the old god's calling and stay away from the other races. Darkspawn dont even like the surface, its all bright full of enemies. Even nature itself resents them (wolves attacking darkspawn in the korcari wilds). If they are fre of the calling they can stay in the deep roads, maybe even leave those and retreat to the "deeper deep roads" as they are referred to in the calling.
His way of thinking has remained practical: All darkspawn who resist his plan (mother and those disciples who sided with her) have to die to realize his plan.

Apart from all that, the very important thing you are ignoring is this: You're PC has not read the calling. He/She has no idea of the architects possible plans apart from what he learns in Awakening. Base your decision on that, everything else is cheating

[guytza]

If you believe the architect, and assuming he isnt lying, and everything works out exactly as he plans and the blights end and the darkspawn can gain intelligent thought....you still have two major problems.



1. They still need to kidnap the untainted races in order to force the women to eat the others in order to make broodmothers.

2. Now they need to kidnap people, force them to go through warden joining, drain them of blood in order to make the new darkspawn sentient.



Sorry Mr. Crest-head, from now on....you die screaming.....good intentions or no.

[Kerendar]

guytza wrote...
1. They still need to kidnap the untainted
races in order to force the women to eat the others in order to make
broodmothers.

Hehe, I knew that would come up. Two things:

A)
Provided you do not believe in the makers existence or at least the whole "darkspawn are His punishment" story... Darkspawn came from somewhere, right? So there were darkspawn BEFORE they started making broodmothers. So they had to reproduce some other way. They can go back to that.
Maybe when they tainted Dumat (the one who taught mankind blood magic and first arch demon) he thought of a way to make MORE darkspawn and FASTER, so he taught the darkspawn blood magic. Making brood mothers is blood magic, no?

Brood mothers are the queens and the fighting darkspawn are the workers, right? If they are no longer hive-minded they no longer need to follow those hive-like logics of kidnapping woman and turning them into brood mothers, so more workers will be created to do exactly the same. Except those who stick to their old ways like "the mother" but they will be dealt with by the architect. They can start discovering the wonderful land called procreation... ok, there's a disturbing thought

guytza wrote...
2. Now they need to
kidnap people, force them to go through warden joining, drain them of blood in order to make the new darkspawn sentient.

Well, that is an issue. Can be solved by founding the Grey Cross of Thedas and start collecting blood donations from grey wardens
Given time the architect or the grey warden mages at weisshaupt may come up with some way to use disciple blood. I see no reason why the "resistence" to the old gods' calling couldnt be extracted from their bloodas well.

And as I said in an earlier post: Killing the architect will not stop what has already begun, realize that. His disciples can continue his work and you surely wont be able to root them out. The only question is who will lead the darkspawn in the future?

Last but not least:
<= Not a native english speaker. wth is a crest-head? I feel the urge to get personal, but there is the chance I'm misinterpreting the sound of it <_<

Modifié par Kerendar, 18 avril 2010 - 11:33 .