237 réponses à ce sujet

[Timmibal]

wth is a crest-head?

Referring to the huge asymmetrical crest that the Architect has growing out of his face. He was talking about the Architect, not you.

[Kerendar]

ah... now I feel stupid :-/

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Hes a parasite killing him for me is easy. I mean its one thing to have intelligent grunt darkspawn but to have the chance of many brood mothers or maybe a few intelligent grunts like the withered that are able to fill in the role of an archdemon is to great a risk. He didn't only spawn a evil brood mother but the childeren and also was able to moblize Armored ogers ill take 2 archdemons over Smart darkspawn anyday. Instead of two blights we'll have to fight them constantly instead of them just going down to the deep roads after the archdemons death.



Then the darkspawn will always be on the surface fighting us. Infecting tons of people and doing massive damage all through out Thedas all the time without leadership from an old god you just got smart darkspawn controlling them and if hundreds of them are sane that omg its a nightmare archetect dies everytime. To much of a risk to let him live and beside he woke up the archdemon you killed anyway.

[Lazarusrevival]

The reason I didn't kill him...First of all, when he puts my party and I to sleep, he could have easily killed all of us, so he deserves to have my attention when he presents his case...2nd of all, the side of good is a matter of perspective...Grey Wardens drink the blood of Dark Spawn (his people which could appear as evil in his eyes) so I clearly can't argue the fact that they drink the blood of the Grey Wardens...Next, the means may not justify the end result, BUT what he is attempting is for the greater good...Last, obviously the Architect has a different outlook on life in general and there are mistakes (very bad mistakes in "our eyes") he has made...but if another Blight can be prevented by keeping him alive...Well, it will be worth it...Plus my character is a Goody-Goody

[FubarCFSnafu]

Actually, I was somewhat annoyed as I didn't expect the game to end when it did. I was trying to find out as much as I could expecting to kill him afterwards, when the game ended after killing the Broodmother.

To me the ending was somewhat sudden after the last battle.

[soteria]

Well, to repeat what some have said, we know he lied to you about Vigil's Keep, both because of what Whisperer said ("Just as the Architect foretold") and for the simple fact that his story doesn't jive with what happened. He claims he sent them to talk, but happened to send enough to kill/capture the entire garrison. "They didn't want to talk, so we decided to just storm the fortress instead," doesn't really sound right to me, does it to you? Whatever, he's being pragmatic. That's ok, but it still makes him my enemy, and it still means that in one of the major cases where we have a way to confirm his word, it turns out he's lying.



He didn't actually have the elves and humans killed/pitted against each other, but if you read his journal, you find out his reaction. He thinks it's "interesting." Should he care about the death and chaos, if he's an enemy? No. Should he, if he wants to be an ally? Yes.

I let the Architect live because I love his voice and he seems like a very awesome character, and I doubt BioWare won't use him in a sequal/expansion, although I can't see this possible for people who killed him.



But he still keeps his words, the raids stop, Deep Roads are quieter then ever.

Ok, you said your character was very practical... but you saved him because you liked his voice? Wait, what? The most practical thing to do is to kill him. Same end result, less risk in the upcoming battle.

I would tentatively suggest that taking his offer doesn't really hurt your odds that much. Assume that every "Blight" type event has a fifty fifty chance of wiping out humanity. Humanity's chance of surviving the two Blights are therefore one in four.

Wait, what? Humanity has survived what, 4 or 5 blights now, including one that lasted for hundreds of years at a time when we didn't even know how to stop it? Just think for a minute the amount of effort that had to go into stopping that first Blight. Ferelden killed the Archdemon once, and Denerim was nearly destroyed in the process. They had to kill the Archdemon again and again until they figured out how to stop it.



"50/50 chance of survival" is a completely fictitious statistic. The most recent Blight ended very quickly, despite a "perfect storm" of circumstances designed to make it succeed: nation with fewest Grey Wardens, Loghain's betrayal, large Warden army prevented from helping, two novice Grey Wardens trying to stop the Blight, a civil war, Uldred's betrayal... I could go on. The point is, despite a set of crazy coincidences that should have made the Blight impossible to stop, it was put down hard and fast. Within days of the Archdemon's first appearance on the surface, in fact. How on earth do you get "50/50 chance of survival" from the history in lore or the previous game?

Provided you do not believe in the makers existence or at least the whole "darkspawn are His punishment" story... Darkspawn came from somewhere, right? So there were darkspawn BEFORE they started making broodmothers. So they had to reproduce some other way. They can go back to that.

Maybe when they tainted Dumat (the one who taught mankind blood magic and first arch demon) he thought of a way to make MORE darkspawn and FASTER, so he taught the darkspawn blood magic. Making brood mothers is blood magic, no?

Err... that's completely speculative. You have to assume, based only on speculation, that history is mistaken or lying about the cause of the first Blight. If we assume we don't know anything about where darkspawn originated, as you suggest, then we really don't know anything, though we really have no reason to suspect that Darkspawn have ever reproduced by any method other than Broodmothers.



If you suscribe to an evolutionary theory for Thedas, I'd suggest that the Children are probably the "pure" or "true" darkspawn, and the rest are productions of the adult Children via Broodmothers from captured humans, elves, and dwarves. That's the simplest explanation I can think of, since the game isn't explicit about where Children come from as far as I know.



That said, we have no reason to think the other Darkspawn have ever or will ever be able to sexually reproduce. If it were possible for them to reproduce in some other way, why did the Architect try to create the Mother? As far as we can tell, their only means of propogating their species, intelligent or no, involves corrupting some other lifeform. With the exception of the Children, Darkspawn are all a corrupted form of some other species. Blighted wolves, werewolves, and spiders, ogres, shrieks, hurlocks, and genlocks, all are corruptions. Disciples are twice bad because they involve killing or capturing Wardens to create. Speaking of captured Wardens, are any ever released? Voluntarily? No.



Sigrun mentions that the Disciples are even more dangerous than regular darkspawn, and that lines up with my own experience in game. The world does not need to see a shriek or ogre disciple. Killing the Architect may or may not stop them from being made, but it will slow things down. Even assuming he keeps his word and goes to the Deep Roads, will it stay that way? From reading his journal, we learn that awakened darkspawn, at least, can appreciate fresh air and possibly beauty. What happens when a large group of awakened darkspawn decide that they deserve a piece of land on the surface? Intelligent or no, they are still a dangerous force that has more reasons to be humanity's enemy than friend.



Finally, I would have killed the Architect for what he had done and what he could and might do even if he weren't darkspawn. No way could I safely hold him captive. Seeing as how he needed Warden blood to continue his work, no way would I let him walk free, even if he did pinky swear and cross his heart never to come back.

[Kerendar]

soteria wrote...He didn't actually have the elves and humans killed/pitted against each
other, but if you read his journal, you find out his reaction. He
thinks it's "interesting."

that's because he doesnt fully understand the reactions of the other species. you may compare him to a child watching the discovery chanel, trying to understand why things are happening as they are.

soteria wrote...
Err... that's completely speculative. You have to assume, based only on speculation, that history is mistaken or lying about the cause of the first Blight. If we assume we don't know anything about where darkspawn originated, as you suggest, then we really don't know anything,

Of course it's speculation. A lot of what is said here is. You dont know
100% what the withered was referring to, you dont know 100% if the
architect suggested to take as many forces as the withered, who has a free will, took. I
completely agree that it is pretty secure to believe he did, but here's what I
like about this issue: what we actually "know" is very little

soteria wrote...
though we really have no reason to suspect that Darkspawn have ever reproduced by any method other than Broodmothers.

So what was there in the first place? The chicken or the egg? Brood mothers are corrupted females of the sentient races. Where did the first broodmother come from if she existed before the first darkspawn? did a female dwarven miner spontaneously turn into a broodmother after eating a bad nug? probably not. hence my believe that darkspawn can reproduce some other way. or at least could in the past.

soteria wrote...
If you suscribe to an evolutionary theory for Thedas, I'd suggest that the Children are probably the "pure" or "true" darkspawn, and the rest are productions of the adult Children via Broodmothers from captured humans, elves, and dwarves. That's the simplest explanation I can think of, since the game isn't explicit about where Children come from as far as I know.

Dunno... As I understood it the children are what "the mother" gives birth to since she he has the same Alien-like "mouth" as the children do. to speculate some more: while playing I thought she may have been a corrupted mage or even a corrupted abomination. after all the brood mother you killed in origins didnt throw spells at you.

soteria wrote...
That said, we have no reason to think the other Darkspawn have ever or will ever be able to sexually reproduce. If it were possible for them to reproduce in some other way, why did the Architect try to create the Mother?

Did he? I actually got the impression that she was not that "young" but existed as a brood mother for some time and that the architect came to her and performed the same joining-like ritual as he did with his disciples. but unlike them she didnt like it and missed the song. I guess you think he created her because she calls him the father. I thought she called him that because he created her and the disciples in a mataphorical sense, freeing mindless darkspawn from the old gods' song, which resulted in a free will and a personality and such.

soteria wrote...
Speaking of captured Wardens, are any ever released? Voluntarily? No.

he may have tried to persuade them that his intentions are good (dont know if you read the calling but he wasnt exactly described as a terrible captor there) and while he was away some darkspawn killed them. its a fact that he does not have full control over them. you only find one grey warden in the mines and his legs were broken by some really strong alpha, who could have done it against the architects wishes, just for fun.

soteria wrote...
Sigrun mentions that the Disciples are even more dangerous than regular darkspawn, and that lines up with my own experience in game. The world does not need to see a shriek or ogre disciple. Killing the Architect may or may not stop them from being made, but it will slow things down. Even assuming he keeps his word and goes to the Deep Roads, will it stay that way? From reading his journal, we learn that awakened darkspawn, at least, can appreciate fresh air and possibly beauty. What happens when a large group of awakened darkspawn decide that they deserve a piece of land on the surface? Intelligent or no, they are still a dangerous force that has more reasons to be humanity's enemy than friend.

interesting thought there! maybe oger disciples are like sten! [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie][smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/grin.png[/smilie]
ahem... there's no doubt that they are more dangerous. provided they are hostile, that is. they may stay threre, they may not. it may slow down things, yes or one of his disciples takes up the job right after the architect is dead.
outside the world: if bioware brings back disciples in upcoming releases, and why should they not, they will hardly have archtect-killers face a weaker enemy than architect... not-killers (ugh, no idea how to say it better) so I'd go with "things wont slow down at all"

soteria wrote...
Finally, I would have killed the Architect for what he had done and what he could and might do even if he weren't darkspawn. No way could I safely hold him captive. Seeing as how he needed Warden blood to continue his work, no way would I let him walk free, even if he did pinky swear and cross his heart never to come back.

fair enough. if I should care to play awakening again and continue my orleasian he'll die without much talk for being a darkspawn and killing grey wardens. It's about your character being "lawful" or pragmatic, which mine tend to be cause thats what I am Should I accidently start the darkspawn apocalypse... yay, more blood for my sword (which, opposed to falsely spread information, will never be stolen cause it chops off the hands of thieves all by itself )

Modifié par Kerendar, 20 avril 2010 - 07:09 .

[JaegerBane]

Kerendar wrote...
that's because he doesnt fully understand the reactions of the other species. you may compare him to a child watching the discovery chanel, trying to understand why things are happening as they are.

I'm not convinced he fully understands anything. While I'm all for quelling misunderstandings, trying to put old gods through joinings and sending a darkspawn army to a grey warden fort and expecting it to end peacefully goes well beyond the realms of misunderstanding and straight into sheer stupidity and carelessness. Given what the potential consequences could be for another one of his goofs, it simply isn't sensible to allow him to keep on with his loony experiments.

I mean, lets face it - thanks to his experiements, how many people have perished so far?

So what was there in the first place? The chicken or the egg? Brood mothers are corrupted females of the sentient races. Where did the first broodmother come from if she existed before the first darkspawn? did a female dwarven miner spontaneously turn into a broodmother after eating a bad nug? probably not. hence my believe that darkspawn can reproduce some other way. or at least could in the past.

The chicken and the egg scenario is something used in primary school when kids are too young to understand evolution and mutation. It's pretty clear from what we know that everything we see so far barring Children are simply corrupted creatures.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the original broodmother was just some unlucky dwarven miner who found out the hard way that exposure to some newly encountered creatures living deep beneath the surface (Children) caused horrible mutations, and she passed it, 28 Days Later style, only here it was through the genlocks.

[soteria]

that's because he doesnt fully understand the reactions of the other species. you may compare him to a child watching the discovery chanel, trying to understand why things are happening as they are.

I considered that, but he does have resources to draw on. Already-captured Wardens or even non-Wardens could have been questioned about the right way to approach Vigil's Keep. For that matter, sending a ghoul or a captive or pretty much anything except for a war party would have made a lot of sense. Sending a messenger that wouldn't get killed would also have been safer. Regardless, if we assume he is just making mistakes... well, that's all very sad, but his mistakes have already caused a lot of lost lives and likely will cause more in the future. I agree with JaegerBane on that.

The chicken and the egg scenario is something used in primary school when kids are too young to understand evolution and mutation. It's pretty clear from what we know that everything we see so far barring Children are simply corrupted creatures.

Or, if you will, creation. Whether you believe the Maker did it or random chance did it, the simplest explanation is that they are simply corrupted beings.

Dunno... As I understood it the children are what "the mother" gives birth to since she he has the same Alien-like "mouth" as the children do. to speculate some more: while playing I thought she may have been a corrupted mage or even a corrupted abomination. after all the brood mother you killed in origins didnt throw spells at you.

Maybe. She's obviously more than a typical broodmother, but the other "normal" broodmothers seem to be popping out Children, too--or where did they come from at Kal'Hirol, other than the four broodmothers? Are they a self-propogating species or a type of broodspawn? Why do the disciples even follow her, when she's obviously insane? If sane darkspawn are willing to follow her because they agree with her goals, what does that say about the probably of the Architect leading the darkspawn into an era of peace, when a more charismatic, clever and bloodthirsty ogre/Sten/disciple (Bioware, you totally need to do this) could probably crush his cause?

Did he? I actually got the impression that she was not that "young" but existed as a brood mother for some time and that the architect came to her and performed the same joining-like ritual as he did with his disciples. but unlike them she didnt like it and missed the song. I guess you think he created her because she calls him the father. I thought she called him that because he created her and the disciples in a mataphorical sense, freeing mindless darkspawn from the old gods' song, which resulted in a free will and a personality and such.

The Architect created her and the other disciples in the metaphorical sense, yes, but she wasn't the only one that didn't take to the process very well. At least, it's implied that others went mad as well, when you talk to him.

[Kerendar]

JaegerBane wrote...
The chicken and the egg scenario is something used in primary school when kids are too young to understand evolution and mutation.

It's the question you ask with the scenario. What I meant to say is that we dont know if darksawn existed without brood mothers. maybe, maybe not

JaegerBane wrote...
I wouldn't be at all surprised to find that the original broodmother was just some unlucky dwarven miner who found out the hard way that exposure to some newly encountered creatures living deep beneath the surface (Children) caused horrible mutations, and she passed it, 28 Days Later style, only here it was through the genlocks.

Sure. I've been thinking it may originally have been some lifeform existing deep within the bowels of the earth, which the dwarves dug up in the process of creating their empire. Something like the Zerg in StarCraft. The creatures that are shown as "Zerg" in the game are actually different alien races that have been "implemented"  into the zerg-hive through mind-control. The actual zerg are a worm-like parasite.
Hey, maybe there's a darkspawn-overmind at the core of the planet thedas is on [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/w00t.png[/smilie]

soteria wrote...
I considered that, but he does have resources to draw on. Already-captured Wardens or even non-Wardens could have been questioned about the right way to approach Vigil's Keep.

More speculation: Or maybe only a messanger went to vigils keep, while the war party was waiting in the tunnels. when the messanger was killed on sight (darkspawn approaching a warden keep? die!) then the war party went to the surface. we dont know how exactly things went, do we? After his "mother" debacle he needed to act and quickly. we know the end result of whatever happened of course.
also, people learn from former mistakes. since he is the first darkspawn of his kind his mistakes are the only ones to learn from.

soteria wrote...
For that matter, sending a ghoul or a captive or pretty much anything except for a war party would have made a lot of sense. Sending a messenger that wouldn't get killed would also have been safer. Regardless, if we assume he is just making mistakes... well, that's all very sad, but his mistakes have already caused a lot of lost lives and likely will cause more in the future. I agree with JaegerBane on that.

Making sense... to you, to me, to any human, elf and dwarf. Or not. Human history (real as well as in thedas)  is so full of senseless crap you can hardly expect a darkspawn to act all logic. What does a darkspawn know of what makes sense to people? He hardly had a chance to live in human society to get to know them better. He is still responsible for what he's doing of course, I dont argue that.

soteria wrote...
Maybe. She's obviously more than a typical broodmother, but the other "normal" broodmothers seem to be popping out Children, too--or where did they come from at Kal'Hirol, other than the four broodmothers?

I've only seen them from far above, breeding deep down in a hole. are they normal? maybe children blood was used to create them and they make children now, without being exactly as "the mother" themselves.

soteria wrote...
Why do the disciples even follow her, when she's obviously insane? If sane darkspawn are willing to follow her because they agree with her goals, what does that say about the probably of the Architect leading the darkspawn into an era of peace, when a more charismatic, clever and bloodthirsty ogre/Sten/disciple (Bioware, you totally need to do this) could probably crush his cause?

I already said (or maybe forgot to say :whistle:I dont know) that this is possible, no doubt. Alright, it has been decided. Our endgame adversary in DA2 is Darkspawn Sten, the intelligent Armored Ogre. The baby god can wait till DA3 or be a minor boss [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie]

To make one thing clear: Everything I say in this thread may or may not be true/make sense/be an encoded recipe for Stens favorite cookies.

Modifié par Kerendar, 20 avril 2010 - 11:26 .

[Dbrow]

One of the most interesting threads I've seen, even though I come to it late. My first play through I didn't kill the Architect, but for pragmatic reasons (I figured that killing him would eliminate the tower options, which they do.)  Not knowing how strong the final showdown was, I kept my options open. The second play-through I did kill him, knowing that I was strong enough to take the Mother without him, and on the theory that the more enemy you kill, the higher your point total.

Philosophically, I don't think the equation of the Wardens drinking the darkspawn blood with the Architect's experiments on Warden blood really works. The Wardens goals are defensive, the taint and early death are the price they pay to be able to stand guard over the rest of humanity. Many (at least in DAO) die during the joining. What price does the darkspawn 2.0 pay to gain sentience? The Architect himself decides who will or will not receive free will, within the limits of the resources he has. Some become mad, but we don't know how much that is different from their prior existence in their 1.0 version of life. We see the two groups fighting each other, but it isn't as if those who gain intelligence are taking responsibility for their benighted brothers and sisters. The Architect is saddened by those taken in madness, and admits mistakes, but doesn't really take any responsibility. He appears to be perfectly willing to fill the world with mad darkspawn, even if only some limited portion may be experience free will.  He appears to be no stronger thand the Mother, and will be your ally to defeat her, only to disappear into the deep once her threat to him is eliminated. Are his actions really any different than a Dr Frankenstein, who performs experiments because he can, and doesn't understand why the mob with the pitchforks and torches shows up at his door?

Modifié par Dbrow, 21 avril 2010 - 03:29 .

[JaegerBane]

Kerendar wrote...


Making sense... to you, to me, to any human, elf and dwarf. Or not. Human history (real as well as in thedas)  is so full of senseless crap you can hardly expect a darkspawn to act all logic. What does a darkspawn know of what makes sense to people? He hardly had a chance to live in human society to get to know them better. He is still responsible for what he's doing of course, I dont argue that.

You don't need to have lived in human society to understand the concept that sending a bunch of creatures to an order that has spent the last millenia fighting them has an extremely high chance of turning into a scrap. That's the core point here - you're taking the view that because he's darkspawn he somehow can't process basic logic. This isn't some deep-rooted cultural misunderstanding where one side sees holy animals and the other sees beefburgers, this is a straightforward situation where he, for some reason, didn't clock that the last thing an order of darkspawn hunters will be willing to listen to straight after a blight, was a group of darkspawn.

In order to make this mistake, he's either a literal retard (something that is clearly not true), or he's careless in the extreme, something that is supported by his monumentally idiotic plans of risking a blight (the very situation he seeks to avoid) to test a theory.

Someone that careless cannot be trusted to exercise enough sense for his experiments to accomplish something good. The fact that he's wandering around with a lunatic grey warden mascot doesn't exactly instil a great deal of confidence in his altruism, either.

Dbrow makes an excellent point - the biggest problem with the Architect is that he just doesn't take responsibility for his actions. He doesn't seem to be capable of comprehending the sheer risk of his experiments. Someone that whacked out, with the kind of power and knowledge he has, is simply too much of a risk to thedas to be allowed to continue.

Modifié par JaegerBane, 21 avril 2010 - 05:41 .

[Kerendar]

Dbrow wrote...
What price does the darkspawn 2.0 pay to gain sentience?

How about civil war and the death of thousands of their kind in the process? He doesnt want his people to suffer but accepts it for the possibility to ensure their existence.

Dbrow wrote...
He appears to be perfectly willing to fill the world with mad darkspawn, even if only some limited portion may be experience free will.
...
Are his actions really any different than a Dr Frankenstein, who performs experiments because he can, and doesn't understand why the mob with the pitchforks and torches shows up at his door?

They are. He doesnt experiment for experiments sake, he does it for the benefit of his own race. At least that is his intention. And they all get free will, the only difference is what they do with it. Some disciples follow him, some follow the mother. "The First" turns on her and swears revenge once he learns she betrayed him. I doubt a normal hurlock would have hard feelings towards an arch demon for being send on a suicidal distraction maneuver like the siege of redcliffe.

Dbrow wrote...
He appears to be no stronger thand the Mother, and will be your ally to defeat her, only to disappear into the deep once her threat to him is eliminated.

Could you elaborate on what you are pointing out here? I dont know why he wouldnt disappear, its not like you're best friends with him now. No idea what the purpose is her

JaegerBane wrote...
You don't need to have lived in human society to understand the concept that sending a bunch of creatures to
an order that has spent the last millenia fighting them has an extremely high chance of turning into a scrap. That's the core point here - you're taking the view that because he's darkspawn he somehow can't process basic logic.

Yes, that's exactly my point. And David Gaiders if I understand him correctly. Have you read the Calling? If you compare this ot the Architects idea there its actually an improvement in his understanding of humanity  Nontheless:

JaegerBane wrote...
This isn't some deep-rooted cultural misunderstanding where one side sees holy animals and the other sees
beefburgers, this is a straightforward situation where he, for some reason, didn't clock that the last thing an order of darkspawn hunters will be willing to listen to straight after a blight, was a group of darkspawn.

Even if he did "clock", what alternatives did he really have? Everyone he could send is or looks like a darkspawn.

=> The fact that many people perceive Utha (and Seranni if she's the same) as ghouls is a graphical mistake. In the book Utha is supposed to look like a darkspawn, sharp teeth and corrupted skin included, only retaining her facial features. But that's not the only book/game inconsistency, as the architect himself is lacking the typical "darkspawn grin", probably to make it easier for people to let him live.

So he doesnt really have an alternative there.

JaegerBane wrote...
In order to make this mistake, he's either a literal retard (something that is clearly not true), or he's careless in the extreme, something that is supported by his monumentally idiotic plans of risking a blight (the very situation he seeks to avoid) to test a theory.

The usual ends-justify-the-means dilemma. Risk one blight for the chance of preventing three. Not having a lot of experience with what he's doing it was a risky gamble of course.

JaegerBane wrote...
The fact that he's wandering around with a lunatic grey warden mascot doesn't exactly instil a great deal of confidence in his altruism, either.

She's no puppet, she is there because she things his goals are worth the costs. In that she's the result of her unfortuned life.

JaegerBane wrote...
Someone that careless cannot be trusted to exercise enough sense for his experiments to accomplish something good.
........

Dbrow makes an excellent point - the biggest problem with the Architect is that he just doesn't take responsibility for his actions. He doesn't seem to be capable of comprehending the sheer risk of his experiments.
Someone that whacked out, with the kind of power and knowledge he has, is simply too much of a risk to thedas to be allowed to continue.

That exactly is the decision to make here and depending on everyone's own opinion (or rather the PCs for those who play different characters, not only defferent classes).
- Do you kill him for what was done or do you regard the possible future?
- Do you kill him for what he might unleash in the future or do you let him live to possibly prevent future blights from occuring?
- Taking in account that the creation of intelligent darkspawn probably wont stop with his death: Do you prefer him to stay in charge "at least for a while" (the worst piece of story-telling no-gos in DA<_< but it fits) or an unknown disciple who could be better or worse?

I prefer the "enemy" I know.

Modifié par Kerendar, 21 avril 2010 - 08:07 .

[Demx]

Killed him. There are only a few old gods left, and it wouldn't stop the vast majority of the darkspawn from seeking the old gods out. Not to mention the horrors he would have brought with more failed experiments.

[Dbrow]

Kerendar wrote...

Dbrow wrote...
What price does the darkspawn 2.0 pay to gain sentience?

How about civil war and the death of thousands of their kind in the process? He doesnt want his people to suffer but accepts it for the possibility to ensure their existence.

Dbrow wrote...
He appears to be perfectly willing to fill the world with mad darkspawn, even if only some limited portion may be experience free will.
...
Are his actions really any different than a Dr Frankenstein, who performs experiments because he can, and doesn't understand why the mob with the pitchforks and torches shows up at his door?

They are. He doesnt experiment for experiments sake, he does it for the benefit of his own race. At least that is his intention. And they all get free will, the only difference is what they do with it. Some disciples follow him, some follow the mother. "The First" turns on her and swears revenge once he learns she betrayed him. I doubt a normal hurlock would have hard feelings towards an arch demon for being send on a suicidal distraction maneuver like the siege of redcliffe.

Dbrow wrote...
He appears to be no stronger thand the Mother, and will be your ally to defeat her, only to disappear into the deep once her threat to him is eliminated.

Could you elaborate on what you are pointing out here? I dont know why he wouldnt disappear, its not like you're best friends with him now. No idea what the purpose is her

To take your points in order:

The Architect is expressing regret, which is a long way from taking responsibility.  He accepts a civil war among 'his kind' (although he also said he was always an outsider among his people) but I think it's The Last who complains that he sends others, but never comes himself.  Unless you count the cost of his disappointed plans, there is no personal cost to him.  The sad truth of the matter is that I will experince much more pain over the death of my cat that for all the people who died in the earthquake in Haiti.  He appears to have a sense of kinship with his subjects, free or mad, but nothing more than regret when they die at either each others hands, or at the hands of the Wardens.

My point was more about the individual intelligent darkspawn though.  Each Warden, having survived the joining, faces an early death from the taint, if they survive all their battles.  (There are several indications of being outcast from society as well, but that may be due to their earlier rebellion.)   DS2.0 may be battling with each other, but the Architect implys that they all make their own choices.  Free will comes to them as an unasked for gift.  They may choose to follow him or the Mother, or strike out on thier own, for that matter.  From what we know, there are no limitations, and nothing comperable to the taint or resposibilities of being a Grey Warden.  My point was that  I just didn't  see the 'We're just like you' comparison.

My point about the relative strength of the Mother and the Architect was that if the Architect was truly taking responsibility for his failure through the civil war, how did the Mother become so strong?  Perhaps at first he didn't recognize her insanity, and let her get away.  But all her powerful lieutenantsare his creations.  With all the cages and bars in his lab, why does he set them free as well?  If I want to experiment with bio-toxins, is it acceptable for me to toss my failed experiments out the window?  You could argue that he has no right to take their lives, but by what right does he inflict a worse madness that DS1.0 already face upon them and then set them free into the world?   Killing them in the lab should at least be easier than running a civil war.  If killing them isn't the answer, than caring for them, and protecting the world from them, is the only acceptable, responsible alternative to not creating them in the first place.

My point about him disappearing is that it means escaping reponsibility and monitering.  I can tell you that my experiments are all peaceful and ethical, but if I make sure you cannot learn anything about my lab practices, all you have is my word for it.  In theory, the Arechitect continues to need contact with the wardens to free his people and stop a future blight.  The last blight before DAO was 4 centuries earlier, so it isn't as if the lack of a blight at the end of this episode tells us anything.  If he truly wants to save his people from their barbarism and isolation, hiding in the Deep Roads is the wrong direction.

I would argue that he is in fact experimenting for experimentings sake, and justifying it by saying it's for the sake of his kind.  He says he hopes to free them from their compusions to seek the older gods.  This sounds good, (no more blights) but then what?  Will the come to the surface and join human society?  Or will they fight endless wars, first among themselves (as we see already) and later against humankind?  His argument is essentially 'free will is a good thing, and everyone should have it"  I would never argue for taking someone's free will (without due process) but if I had the power to confer it on whomever I chose, would it always be a "good thing" regardless of how I chose to use it.    Finally, take a look again at the Architects lab.  I know it's just a story, but look at the features you find there, and tell me you're convinced that he values the life and free will of his subjects.

I haven't read the book, so I'm drawing all my conclusions from the game itself. 

Modifié par Dbrow, 23 avril 2010 - 04:11 .

[Kerendar]

Dbrow wrote...
To take your points in order:

The Architect is expressing regret, which is a long way from taking responsibility.  He accepts a civil war among 'his kind' (although he also said he was always an outsider among his people) but I think it's The Last who complains that he sends others, but never comes himself.  Unless you count the cost of his disappointed plans, there is no personal cost to him.  The sad truth of the matter is that I will experince much more pain over the death of my cat that for all the people who died in the earthquake in Haiti.  He appears to have a sense of kinship with his subjects, free or mad, but nothing more than regret when they die at either each others hands, or at the hands of the Wardens.

My point was more about the individual intelligent darkspawn though.  Each Warden, having survived the joining, faces an early death from the taint, if they survive all their battles.  (There are several indications of being outcast from society as well, but that may be due to their earlier rebellion.)   DS2.0 may be battling with each other, but the Architect implys that they all make their own choices.  Free will comes to them as an unasked for gift.  They may choose to follow him or the Mother, or strike out on thier own, for that matter.  From what we know, there are no limitations, and nothing comperable to the taint or resposibilities of being a Grey Warden.  My point was that  I just didn't  see the 'We're just like you' comparison.

Ah. Now that I'm clear what you meant, I can agree that we dont really disagree. "Only" thing darksawn lose is their song. It is enough to make the mother mad at him though.

Dbrow wrote...
My point about the relative strength of the Mother and the Architect was that if the Architect was truly taking responsibility for his failure through the civil war, how did the Mother become so strong?  Perhaps at first he didn't recognize her insanity, and let her get away.  But all her powerful lieutenantsare his creations.  With all the cages and bars in his lab, why does he set them free as well?  If I want to experiment with bio-toxins, is it acceptable for me to toss my failed experiments out the window?  You could argue that he has no right to take their lives, but by what right does he inflict a worse madness that DS1.0 already face upon them and then set them free into the world?

You assume that he knew they would turn on him and join the mother. Maybe he sent them to kill her and she convinced them to follow her. Maybe your biotoxin decided it didnt agree with you and jumped out of the window. Who knows.

Dbrow wrote...
Killing them in the lab should at least be easier than running a civil war.  If killing them isn't the answer, than caring for them, and protecting the world from them, is the only acceptable, responsible alternative to not creating them in the first place.

The fact that he locked the door of the warden's cell is actually progress. He'd probably have a hard time understanding the idea of such an asylum

Dbrow wrote...
I would argue that he is in fact experimenting for experimentings sake, and justifying it by saying it's for the sake of his kind.

That is a valid opinion, just not mine.

Dbrow wrote...
He says he hopes to free them from their compusions to seek the older gods.  This sounds good, (no more blights) but then what?  Will the come to the surface and join human society?  Or will they fight endless wars, first among themselves (as we see already) and later against humankind?

*spreading arms wide* who knows?

Dbrow wrote...
Finally, take a look again at the Architects lab.  I know it's just a story, but look at the features you find there, and tell me you're convinced that he values the life and free will of his subjects.

Dont have it installed (till patched), so, ah, dunno...

Dbrow wrote...
I haven't read the book, so I'm drawing all my conclusions from the game itself.

hm... now that I'm clear on what your opinion is, I dont know if reading the book will change it much. In those cases it differs from mine, the difference comes from our different (terrible sentence <_<) judgment of his actions I'd say.

[Dbrow]

Kerendar wrote...

hm... now that I'm clear on what your opinion is, I dont know if reading the book will change it much. In those cases it differs from mine, the difference comes from our different (terrible sentence <_<) judgment of his actions I'd say.

Happy to leave our discussion here, it's fun to discuss the reasons and ramification, even if we don't agree.  I would have to give Bioware some real credit, it that we are each able to play roles that express something of ourselves in the gameplay.  Even on occasions when I have replayed sections to see what consequences each choice makes, I have found some extremely hard to make, because they just aren't 'me.'   That we can have different viewpoints, make different decisions, and see different outcomes is one of the things I really like about the game.

D

[Foolsfolly]

Wow, a lot to discuss and comment on.



....to answer the original post, I killed him. While he does clearly lie to us, has an evil plan to end the Blights, and generally lacks any real understanding of sapient life and culture....the simple fact of the matter is look at his results.



Scientifically speaking, has he succeeded even a little at his goals? No. He started a Blight when he meant to stop one, created the Mother, and tried to suppress the now independent Darkspawn he disagreed with. Darkspawn swarm and given intelligence they still seek to destroy, breed, and corrupt. They don't have a culture, they don't have ideals, they're just smarter engines of destruction and chaos.



When they're stupid they're at least manageable. The Deep Roads are quiet if you keep the Architect alive but that doesn't mean they've stopped breeding and evolving. What happens when they stop mustering forces and begin to march anew?

[Carmen_Willow]

I kill him. Why would I want to help make my enemy more intelligent, more capable of strategy, and give them a greater possibility of defeating future generations of humans? Given the fact that some of the new darkspawn resent being made self aware, there is little guarantee of a lasting settlement with them.



In addition; I believe the darkspawn eat us. Why would I want to make a species who preys on me smarter? It just didn't work for me at all. Basic rule of genetics: Be kind to you kin and mean to the stranger. Why is it the basic rule of DNA? Because it works....

[WhiteVeils]

I killed him because of broodmothers. Sentient or not, even if they all were as nice as mother theresa, they'd still need to do those horrible things to women in order to reproduce.



YUCK! Blights end in 2 more anyway.

[mhendon]

I killed him! I know his intentions are "good." But he cares most about his people. His plans are either insane or always going wrong, he doesn't understand or particularly care about other people, and hes ruthless. Hes not exactly up front with u either, so i don't think hes all that trustworthy.



If you go with his plan sure, the archdemons would be gone (which the wardens could accomplish anyway!) but I don't really think the blights would necessarily be over. I see blights as the darkspawn, united by something and marching to war. Say the darkspawn gain intelligence and freewill. Now, isn't it possible that any one of those darkspawn could unite their people against the other races? So now there is an infinite number of potential blights! Sure, the architect is peaceful. That does not mean all of the other converts would be a la mother. A river of warden blood would have to flow to free those creatures, and the taint will only end with the darkspawn. Thinking that the architects plan would work out for the good is naive...at best.



I killed him because his plans were dangerous, more dangerous than a few more blights, imo. Darkspawn will remain beasts to be exterminated. Honestly, I think its better that way for everyone.

[EnchantedEyes1]

Great discussion and have stayed out of it until now because this is one decision about which I remain deeply conflicted.



My last warden killed him, mainly because I had just read The Calling and realized what his ultimate plan is and he has shown himself to be manipulative and deceitful. He only divulges information on a "need to know" basis and he decides how much you need to know based on how advantageous it is for him. You are not going into the situation as an equal, make no mistake he is calling all the shots. This is further illustrated by the fact he kept the fact that he was responsible for the last blight to himself. That little nugget is directly relevant as a consequence of his experiments leading to nearly catastrophic consequences which he chooses to withhold. Plus, there are alot of good points posed by previous posts.



That said, I really wanted to let him live because I could understand his logic and it just "feels" wrong for me to kill him. I have no idea why...



I had spared him in previous playthroughs but not sure what my next warden will do and I can't help but feel that it's a mistake to kill him in spite of all the aforementioned reasons to do so.

[Astranagant]

I killed him. Making smarter Darkspawn is not a good thing. The last thing the world needs is smarter rapists.

Modifié par Astranagant, 29 avril 2010 - 04:09 .

[I2edShift]

Congrats on some of the people here to making some fantastic posts one way or another.
Most of what i have to say has no dought been repeated many times.. But i'd like to post my thoughts anyways.

There can be NO possible good outcome by letting the Architect continue with his ridiculous plan for "peace". Yes, he wants to preserve & help his own race and free them from the continual cycle of the Archdemon phenomenon... These intentions are admirable, and meet honestly as far as we can tell.. However, the overlying problems is not weather the Darkspawn are allowed to be gain a concience & free will.. It's the fact that the Darkspawns very existance as a species threatens the life of all Thedas. Not just the Humans, Dwarves, and elves..

Why would you help somthing that has captured you, stripped you of your gear (not just weapons),  experimented on you and others,  is ruthless in his goals and how he goes about them, and has no understanding of morals of any kind?.. His current "screw ups" include the Archdemon and the Mother.. You want to risk more of those? Really? With those kind of screw ups, and only a few intelligent Darkspawn to show for it... That kind of success ratio would destroy Thedas as quickly as an unchecked blight would.

He dangles the carrot of  "No more blights" in front of you... There are a maximum of two more blights left.. Yes, every blight can grow into a "Apocalypse" scenario, but after 5 blights the Darkspawn are still in their holes... The blights are not the ultimate problem.. The Darkspawn are.

If the Darkspawn were allowed to gain free will and such.. It would only cause more problems than it would solve.  From a united front of Darkspawn against the other races or a myriad of reasons,  to civil war among the Darkspawn, to the Taint spreading.. The choice is clear really if  you think about it and know the lore behind them. The Darkspawn species must be exterminated.. It is unfortunat from a certain standpoint.. But ultimatley the question is "Us or them?". Easy choice guys. Blight threats are the lesser of two Evils by far.

[ElvaliaRavenHart]

I kill him. Isn't the real solution for ending the blights within ancient secrets of The Trevinter Imperium? Go back to the beginning for the solution. Why keep him alive? Also, alot of dragon eggs laying around, the potential for more tainted dragons seems to be ongoing.