Left him alive the first time, killed him every other time. Seriously, Warden's duty is to kill Darkspawn, dull ones are already enough of a trouble during blights, I wouldn't expect intelligent ones not to smear for revenge with all the dead Darkspawn in my wake...
Who here slew The Architect? Why?
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#177
Posté 01 septembre 2011 - 01:07
Graywolfe
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well i wanted to kill both but since that was not really an option i picked what at the time seemed the lesser of two evils and killed the mother since she seemed the greatest threat at the time and i could always track him down and kill him later 
in theory lol . maybe next time i will do it the other way.
in theory lol . maybe next time i will do it the other way.
#178
Posté 13 septembre 2011 - 11:03
mrmike_1949
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I was going to let him live until the Mother battle, but then he was gone so I couldn't kill him !
#179
Posté 14 septembre 2011 - 01:25
Tryynity
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/ killed
coz he ugly *grynz*
and yea... intelligent evil is a scary adversary
coz he ugly *grynz*
and yea... intelligent evil is a scary adversary
#180
Posté 14 septembre 2011 - 07:40
turian councilor Knockout
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I did, he's a darkspawn and i a warden who knows his duty, grey wardens slays darkspawn.
Modifié par turian councilor Knockout, 14 septembre 2011 - 07:40 .
#181
Posté 14 septembre 2011 - 02:12
GSSAGE7
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I left him alive, to continue the darkspawn civil war. Ideally, we'll also be able to learn a bit from the Architect's experiments. We know he found a way to speed up progression of the taint, maybe he found a way to slow it down.
If that doesn't work, we can always let them kill each other, and swoop in, killing the rest.
If that doesn't work, we can always let them kill each other, and swoop in, killing the rest.
#182
Posté 15 septembre 2011 - 12:09
Requiesta De Silencia
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Me!
I was rping a character that loved to randomly kill things... -innocent face-
I was rping a character that loved to randomly kill things... -innocent face-
#183
Posté 21 septembre 2011 - 01:24
Mizuno85
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couldn't do it ^^;;
I have to say he got a point, even when he is experimenting on humans and wardens. guess thats what the wardens did with darkspawn too.
so its basically two races doing the same thing to each other. I would be not better with killing him and deny the darkspawn their chance of freewill, i hoped to make an example that there is a chance of freedom. And perhaps the architect will find a cure to the taint as well.
and he was being honest all the time, which is rare even among humans.
risky yes, but hopefully the right choice.
sad that this only gets mentioned in DA2... aww, well, perhaps in DA3 it will have a bigger role ^^
I have to say he got a point, even when he is experimenting on humans and wardens. guess thats what the wardens did with darkspawn too.
so its basically two races doing the same thing to each other. I would be not better with killing him and deny the darkspawn their chance of freewill, i hoped to make an example that there is a chance of freedom. And perhaps the architect will find a cure to the taint as well.
and he was being honest all the time, which is rare even among humans.
risky yes, but hopefully the right choice.
sad that this only gets mentioned in DA2... aww, well, perhaps in DA3 it will have a bigger role ^^
#184
Guest_greengoron89_*
Posté 21 septembre 2011 - 05:11
Guest_greengoron89_*
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I already gave my two cents previously, so I'm sort of beating a dead horse. However...
...the darkspawn are simply not people like you and I, and never can be. They will never be truly free, nor can they ever truly coexist with the other races of Thedas. They are parasites - and humans, elves, dwarves, and Qunari are their prey. So even if all darkspawn were awakened and a truce was arranged, they will still need to parasitize other races just to ensure their own survival.
Of course, that's not likely to ever happen - because many of the darkspawn the Architect awakens end up going bat**** insane and killing everyone around them. It also enables the darkspawn to lead military campaigns against the surface completely independent of an Archdemon - and do so far more efficiently and strategically on top of that (as we all witnessed during Awakening).
Not to mention that the Architect is not exactly the most trustworthy individual, considering how he "accidentally" corrupted Urthemiel and started the Fifth Blight, conspired to turn every living thing in Thedas into ghouls, had his underlings sack Vigil's Keep and kidnap all of the Grey Wardens - and slaughter most of the Keep's inhabitants while they were at it. Oh, and he kidnapped you and your companions and had you imprisoned - and he also tried to have you killed during your escape attempt.
Then, once you prepare yourself for the battle with the Mother, he and his Warden blood cow magically appear and suddenly want to strike up an alliance with you. Which makes sense, considering how many times he's utterly failed to apprehend you in the past - hey, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, right?
Except he lies his ass off when he tries to explain his actions to you, and tries to appeal to the Warden's sense of pragmatism (or mercy - either suits his goals) to sell you on this "partnership" he's proposing (which he's doing purely out of desperation and convenience). He is manipulative and deceitful, and he can't be trusted as far as you can throw him. He has much to gain from this alliance - and you have MUCH to lose.
So he must die. It's that simple, IMHO. Otherwise, you risk making the darkspawn threat infinitely worse - perhaps even unstoppable.
...the darkspawn are simply not people like you and I, and never can be. They will never be truly free, nor can they ever truly coexist with the other races of Thedas. They are parasites - and humans, elves, dwarves, and Qunari are their prey. So even if all darkspawn were awakened and a truce was arranged, they will still need to parasitize other races just to ensure their own survival.
Of course, that's not likely to ever happen - because many of the darkspawn the Architect awakens end up going bat**** insane and killing everyone around them. It also enables the darkspawn to lead military campaigns against the surface completely independent of an Archdemon - and do so far more efficiently and strategically on top of that (as we all witnessed during Awakening).
Not to mention that the Architect is not exactly the most trustworthy individual, considering how he "accidentally" corrupted Urthemiel and started the Fifth Blight, conspired to turn every living thing in Thedas into ghouls, had his underlings sack Vigil's Keep and kidnap all of the Grey Wardens - and slaughter most of the Keep's inhabitants while they were at it. Oh, and he kidnapped you and your companions and had you imprisoned - and he also tried to have you killed during your escape attempt.
Then, once you prepare yourself for the battle with the Mother, he and his Warden blood cow magically appear and suddenly want to strike up an alliance with you. Which makes sense, considering how many times he's utterly failed to apprehend you in the past - hey, if you can't beat 'em, join 'em, right?
Except he lies his ass off when he tries to explain his actions to you, and tries to appeal to the Warden's sense of pragmatism (or mercy - either suits his goals) to sell you on this "partnership" he's proposing (which he's doing purely out of desperation and convenience). He is manipulative and deceitful, and he can't be trusted as far as you can throw him. He has much to gain from this alliance - and you have MUCH to lose.
So he must die. It's that simple, IMHO. Otherwise, you risk making the darkspawn threat infinitely worse - perhaps even unstoppable.
Modifié par greengoron89, 21 septembre 2011 - 05:16 .
#185
Posté 21 septembre 2011 - 09:46
Mizuno85
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you got points there I haven't been thinking (or rather aware) of.
bur arent the darkspawn... how should I say it, weary of sunlight and rather live in caverns? so what need do they have to attack the surface?
and aren't broodmothers there to give birth to new darkspawn? so they do have to corrupt some individuals, but surely not all of thedas? if they would go this far, their own fate would be doomed.
I still have hope that my decission was the right one, I'm far from sure however. In truth I fear I have doomed all thedas ^^;; But I would do it again, and again, as i still hold hope that the architect spoke the truth and if he did, and if there would just a tiny chance of peace, who would I be if I throw it away out of fear on "whats" and "ifs"? ^^
in the end all that remains is hope. (I'm a pacifist at heart ;D)
bur arent the darkspawn... how should I say it, weary of sunlight and rather live in caverns? so what need do they have to attack the surface?
and aren't broodmothers there to give birth to new darkspawn? so they do have to corrupt some individuals, but surely not all of thedas? if they would go this far, their own fate would be doomed.
I still have hope that my decission was the right one, I'm far from sure however. In truth I fear I have doomed all thedas ^^;; But I would do it again, and again, as i still hold hope that the architect spoke the truth and if he did, and if there would just a tiny chance of peace, who would I be if I throw it away out of fear on "whats" and "ifs"? ^^
in the end all that remains is hope. (I'm a pacifist at heart ;D)
#186
Posté 21 septembre 2011 - 11:21
naddaya
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Mizuno85 wrote...
you got points there I haven't been thinking (or rather aware) of.
bur arent the darkspawn... how should I say it, weary of sunlight and rather live in caverns? so what need do they have to attack the surface?
and aren't broodmothers there to give birth to new darkspawn? so they do have to corrupt some individuals, but surely not all of thedas? if they would go this far, their own fate would be doomed.
I still have hope that my decission was the right one, I'm far from sure however. In truth I fear I have doomed all thedas ^^;; But I would do it again, and again, as i still hold hope that the architect spoke the truth and if he did, and if there would just a tiny chance of peace, who would I be if I throw it away out of fear on "whats" and "ifs"? ^^
in the end all that remains is hope. (I'm a pacifist at heart ;D)
Sunlight does nothing to them. They don't need to attack the surface, that's true. But the Architect planned on tainting EVERYONE, that's his "peace". Of course we didn't know it at that point, both decisions have their downsides. His research is interesting, and might shed light on the nature of the taint. But would really allow broodmothers to exist and keep breeding, even if they are few? After listening to Espith? After seeing what they are?
#187
Guest_greengoron89_*
Posté 21 septembre 2011 - 11:26
Guest_greengoron89_*
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If you are confident that you made the right decision, then stick with it. It's certainly preferable to sitting for hours on end in indecision because you're unsure what choice to make (like I do every time I come to a major decision point).
I, however, believe that it's a critical mistake to let him live. He is very much like Morrigan (who I also invest little trust in). He looks out only for himself and his own interests, and only offers his help if he can use you as a means to achieve his goals - and also like Morrigan, I suspect that he will betray you when either his goal is met, or when you become a hindrance to his meeting it (which he promptly does when you refuse his offer).
So I say the stakes are simply too high to take this bet - and it's better to stick with the devil you know, than the devil you don't.
I, however, believe that it's a critical mistake to let him live. He is very much like Morrigan (who I also invest little trust in). He looks out only for himself and his own interests, and only offers his help if he can use you as a means to achieve his goals - and also like Morrigan, I suspect that he will betray you when either his goal is met, or when you become a hindrance to his meeting it (which he promptly does when you refuse his offer).
So I say the stakes are simply too high to take this bet - and it's better to stick with the devil you know, than the devil you don't.
Modifié par greengoron89, 21 septembre 2011 - 11:34 .
#188
Guest_simfamUP_*
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 12:31
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Though I disagree with greengoron, for anybody who needs a FO1 comparison:
Architect = The Master... in some sort of way :-)
Architect = The Master... in some sort of way :-)
#189
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 02:31
Mizuno85
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at which point did he say that he wanted to taint everyone? perhaps I missed that but I thought he wanted to find a "cure" for the taint, as the wardens can't be tainted, so his new darkspawn might not taint other humans as they has undergone a similar threatment as the wardens and thus became "imune2 to the taint, thus not spreading it ^^;;
I must agree he only serves himself, but does the other races not do the same? what about the dwarfes who would want to help you in the first place against the blight, whose struggle with themselfes concerned them more than the destruction of all ferelden? what about the elves who do hold humans, lets say, not in the highest of their priority list when it comes to saving?
guess this is only natural, but do the humans not also hold peace with those races? why not the darkspawn?
even if they are unnatural, in whose right would I be to leave them forever chained to a deamon whose only cause is to eleminate all life?
that said, the darkspawn would re-surface anyhow. at the latest when they do find annother old god and start another blight.
and when all old gods are gone, what would they do then? perhaps going insane like the broodmother...
perhaps I added to that with "intelligent" darkspawn, or I made those new darkspawn an ally in future battles yet to be fought against their kind. Guess I know when its time ^^;; (dragon age 3 or maybe 4 perhaps
)
the architect made mistakes, terrible ones, but could he forsee them? I guess not. I think his intentions where true, even if he "paved the path to hell" for the fereldens with them. He sounded terribly sorry for them as it was revealed by the mother. And you could see and hear the fear he had, as the warden found out about this. But it seemed to me he was not affraid of his/her wrath, but of loosing his/her support as he clearly stated this was a mistake, and not intended at all
I hope he learned from the mistakes he made.
But why would he afraid to be loosing the support of the warden, if not, he too believed in peace?
he could have unleashed the darkspawn and another blight just on the spot as he knew where the other old gods where, could take warden blood and made an army of intelligent darkspawn to rule over a legion of mindless followers, on which head an archdeamon would stand, but he did not.
the chance for freedom and peace, even if its little, was worth the price of a "little doubt" from my side. I never doubted his intentions, just the means on which he wanted to achive them. Alas, he was on his own, made his judgements based on little knowledge he could get hold of, so I blame him not of the mistakes he had made, nor of his intentions, which sounded to me good of nature and true of heart. so killing him was just not right.
I must agree he only serves himself, but does the other races not do the same? what about the dwarfes who would want to help you in the first place against the blight, whose struggle with themselfes concerned them more than the destruction of all ferelden? what about the elves who do hold humans, lets say, not in the highest of their priority list when it comes to saving?
guess this is only natural, but do the humans not also hold peace with those races? why not the darkspawn?
even if they are unnatural, in whose right would I be to leave them forever chained to a deamon whose only cause is to eleminate all life?
that said, the darkspawn would re-surface anyhow. at the latest when they do find annother old god and start another blight.
and when all old gods are gone, what would they do then? perhaps going insane like the broodmother...
perhaps I added to that with "intelligent" darkspawn, or I made those new darkspawn an ally in future battles yet to be fought against their kind. Guess I know when its time ^^;; (dragon age 3 or maybe 4 perhaps
)the architect made mistakes, terrible ones, but could he forsee them? I guess not. I think his intentions where true, even if he "paved the path to hell" for the fereldens with them. He sounded terribly sorry for them as it was revealed by the mother. And you could see and hear the fear he had, as the warden found out about this. But it seemed to me he was not affraid of his/her wrath, but of loosing his/her support as he clearly stated this was a mistake, and not intended at all
I hope he learned from the mistakes he made.
But why would he afraid to be loosing the support of the warden, if not, he too believed in peace?
he could have unleashed the darkspawn and another blight just on the spot as he knew where the other old gods where, could take warden blood and made an army of intelligent darkspawn to rule over a legion of mindless followers, on which head an archdeamon would stand, but he did not.
the chance for freedom and peace, even if its little, was worth the price of a "little doubt" from my side. I never doubted his intentions, just the means on which he wanted to achive them. Alas, he was on his own, made his judgements based on little knowledge he could get hold of, so I blame him not of the mistakes he had made, nor of his intentions, which sounded to me good of nature and true of heart. so killing him was just not right.
#190
Guest_greengoron89_*
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 06:15
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Give me a moment while I address each point in your post individually (I love these types of discussions):
Youwould've needed to read The Calling to know that - it's a book David Gaider wrote detailing the Architect's story pre-Awakening. In it, the Architect had formulated some kind of master plan to spread the taint toall living things in Thedas and seek out and destroy all of the Old Gods, in order to "make peace" between the darkspawn and the other races in the world.
Although, to me, that sounds more usurping power from your overlords so that you may conquer and enslave your enemies yourself - and you'll be much more efficient and likely to succeed since your army is now intelligent (in addition it having large numbers). You would be, for all intents and purposes, unstoppable - assuming your plan is a success, that is.
Anyway, you can find more information of The Calling here.
Also, Warden blood is required to awaken darkspawn because it induces resistance to their own corruption - but the darkspawn are still tainted nonetheless, and that taint will continue to spread to any and all living things that it comes into contact with - the Messenger is the perfect example of this. Not only is he awakened, but he's also benevolent and even helps many travelers later should you spare him.
Unfortunately, he also spreads the taint as he does this. It's not his fault in any way, it's just part of his biology as a darkspawn - and no amount of Warden blood can ever change that.
The other races very much do serve themselves - which is a fundamental quality in all living species, as it ensures that species' very survival. I couldn't fault the darkspawn for that in and of itself - the problem, however, is that the survival of the darkspawn also requires the parasitization of another species just so they can reproduce.
Consider the possible repercussions of this fact. If the darkspawn are deprived of females to that end, then they will have to take them by force (as they have been for centuries). How are we supposed to make peace with a species like the darkspawn knowing this? Would the people of Thedas willingly hand over their own to the darkspawn just so their species might subsist?
A peace agreement would require that they would - and that brings a whole other slew of problems with it. The different races and organizations would never universally agree to such terms, and they'd end up warring with each other and amongst themselves as a result. Making peace with the darkspawn means making war with each other - it would be unavoidable.
This is all assuming that the Architect's intentions are pure, that his planto awaken the darkspawn works, and that the darkspawn are uniform in their cause to make peace - which is unlikely to happen, as not all darkspawn will stand with him, and he'd likely never be able to awaken every darkspawn in Thedas. The ones who oppose him will make war with him, and the ones he hasn't awakened will continue seeking out the Old Gods - and all three factions would require Broodmothers to bolster their numbers as they war with one another.
Did I mention that Grey Wardens would also need to be sacrificed en masse to even begin to awaken the darkspawn? So we're losing more than just females of every race - we're also losing members of the one order that can actually end a Blight.
It is pointless, in any case. All paths lead to war and destruction for both the darkspawn and the people of Thedas. Therefore, I say once more that the Architect must die.
I've come to the realization that cutting the darkspawn off from the "song" is not actually what causes them to awaken - it's resistance to the taint that does this. The taint itself only allows the darkspawn to become attuned to the "song" - but at the cost of their sentience, as the taint corrupts their mind and precludes sentience. This makes them compliant, and in their compliance become compelled by the "song" to seek out and release the Old Gods from their perpetual prisons.
Therefore, if the Old Gods were all destroyed and the "song" stopped, the darkspawn would still be no more sentient than they were before. The taint would continue to inhibit intelligence, and they'd be reduced to a race of primitive, bestial creatures with nothing to unify them for a Blight ever again - and, save for some skirmishes every now and then, the darkspawn threat will have been effectively neutralized forever.
That is, unless you allow the Architect to awaken the darkspawn - then they will be become sentient and able to operate independently of any Archdemon, and the darkspawn threat will increase dramatically and may never be neutralized even if the "song" comes to an end. Thedas will be doomed to war with the darkspawn forever (and the darkspawn will be doomed to war with each other as well).
Again, all paths lead to war and destruction for everyone. Killing the Architect ensures two more Blights will occur, but sparing him ensures constant warfare with them long after the threat of Blights is no more. It's up to you to pick the lesser of two evils; choose wisely, for the future of Thedas could hang in the balance.
All the more reason to kill him. Terribly sorry or no, if his "mistakes" all result in things like Blights and huge surface raids, then I shudderto think what else could happen as a result of his "mistakes." Someone like that is simply too dangerous to be left to their own devices.
And I've also come to ponder another point after reading your above post: if the Architect is cut off from the "song", how did he locate Urthemiel? He shouldn't know where any of the Old Gods are located without being able to follow the song somehow. I'd assume he used his not-so-sentient underlings to locate the Archdemon, but even that bodes ill: he managed to locate and awaken Urthemiel in a very small time-frame using limited resources.
If he is left alive, who's to say that he wouldn't be able to locate the other two just as quickly and efficiently? Isn't that part of his whole plan to begin with? No, finding the Old Gods is the last thing you want any darkspawn to do, so allowing the Architect to get anywhere near another Old God is a recipe for disaster (especially given his track record thus far).
It's not an easy decision to make. Both decisions are extremely risky - but I'm 100% sure the risk of battling primitive darkspawn for two more Blights is preferable to the risk of battling intelligent darkspawn forever. So, as unpleasant a decision as it might be, I still must kill the Architect whenever I meet him. He is simply too dangerous to be left alive.
Mizuno85 wrote...
at which point did he say that he wanted to taint everyone? perhaps I missed that but I thought he wanted to find a "cure" for the taint, as the wardens can't be tainted, so his new darkspawn might not taint other
humans as they has undergone a similar threatment as the wardens and thus became "imune2 to the taint, thus not spreading it ^^;;
Youwould've needed to read The Calling to know that - it's a book David Gaider wrote detailing the Architect's story pre-Awakening. In it, the Architect had formulated some kind of master plan to spread the taint toall living things in Thedas and seek out and destroy all of the Old Gods, in order to "make peace" between the darkspawn and the other races in the world.
Although, to me, that sounds more usurping power from your overlords so that you may conquer and enslave your enemies yourself - and you'll be much more efficient and likely to succeed since your army is now intelligent (in addition it having large numbers). You would be, for all intents and purposes, unstoppable - assuming your plan is a success, that is.
Anyway, you can find more information of The Calling here.
Also, Warden blood is required to awaken darkspawn because it induces resistance to their own corruption - but the darkspawn are still tainted nonetheless, and that taint will continue to spread to any and all living things that it comes into contact with - the Messenger is the perfect example of this. Not only is he awakened, but he's also benevolent and even helps many travelers later should you spare him.
Unfortunately, he also spreads the taint as he does this. It's not his fault in any way, it's just part of his biology as a darkspawn - and no amount of Warden blood can ever change that.
Mizuno85 wrote...
I must agree he only serves himself, but does the other races not do the same? what about the dwarfes who would want to help you in the first place against the blight, whose struggle with themselfes concerned them more than the destruction of all ferelden? what about the elves who do hold humans, lets say, not in the highest of their priority list when itcomes to saving?guess this is only natural, but do the humans not also hold peace with those races? why not the darkspawn?evenif they are unnatural, in whose right would I be to leave them forever chained to a deamon whose only cause is to eleminate all life?
The other races very much do serve themselves - which is a fundamental quality in all living species, as it ensures that species' very survival. I couldn't fault the darkspawn for that in and of itself - the problem, however, is that the survival of the darkspawn also requires the parasitization of another species just so they can reproduce.
Consider the possible repercussions of this fact. If the darkspawn are deprived of females to that end, then they will have to take them by force (as they have been for centuries). How are we supposed to make peace with a species like the darkspawn knowing this? Would the people of Thedas willingly hand over their own to the darkspawn just so their species might subsist?
A peace agreement would require that they would - and that brings a whole other slew of problems with it. The different races and organizations would never universally agree to such terms, and they'd end up warring with each other and amongst themselves as a result. Making peace with the darkspawn means making war with each other - it would be unavoidable.
This is all assuming that the Architect's intentions are pure, that his planto awaken the darkspawn works, and that the darkspawn are uniform in their cause to make peace - which is unlikely to happen, as not all darkspawn will stand with him, and he'd likely never be able to awaken every darkspawn in Thedas. The ones who oppose him will make war with him, and the ones he hasn't awakened will continue seeking out the Old Gods - and all three factions would require Broodmothers to bolster their numbers as they war with one another.
Did I mention that Grey Wardens would also need to be sacrificed en masse to even begin to awaken the darkspawn? So we're losing more than just females of every race - we're also losing members of the one order that can actually end a Blight.
It is pointless, in any case. All paths lead to war and destruction for both the darkspawn and the people of Thedas. Therefore, I say once more that the Architect must die.
Mizuno85 wrote...
that said, the darkspawn would re-surface anyhow. at the latest when they do find annother old god and start another blight. and when all old gods are gone, what would they do then? perhaps going insane like the broodmother... perhaps I added to that with "intelligent" darkspawn, or I made those new darkspawn an ally in future battles yet to be fought against their kind. Guess I know when its time ^^;; (dragon age 3 or maybe 4 perhaps
I've come to the realization that cutting the darkspawn off from the "song" is not actually what causes them to awaken - it's resistance to the taint that does this. The taint itself only allows the darkspawn to become attuned to the "song" - but at the cost of their sentience, as the taint corrupts their mind and precludes sentience. This makes them compliant, and in their compliance become compelled by the "song" to seek out and release the Old Gods from their perpetual prisons.
Therefore, if the Old Gods were all destroyed and the "song" stopped, the darkspawn would still be no more sentient than they were before. The taint would continue to inhibit intelligence, and they'd be reduced to a race of primitive, bestial creatures with nothing to unify them for a Blight ever again - and, save for some skirmishes every now and then, the darkspawn threat will have been effectively neutralized forever.
That is, unless you allow the Architect to awaken the darkspawn - then they will be become sentient and able to operate independently of any Archdemon, and the darkspawn threat will increase dramatically and may never be neutralized even if the "song" comes to an end. Thedas will be doomed to war with the darkspawn forever (and the darkspawn will be doomed to war with each other as well).
Again, all paths lead to war and destruction for everyone. Killing the Architect ensures two more Blights will occur, but sparing him ensures constant warfare with them long after the threat of Blights is no more. It's up to you to pick the lesser of two evils; choose wisely, for the future of Thedas could hang in the balance.
Mizuno85 wrote...
the architect made mistakes, terrible ones, but could he forsee them? I guess not. I think his intentions where true, even if he "paved the path to hell" for the fereldens with them. He sounded terribly sorry for them as it was revealed by the mother. And you could see and hear the fear he had, as the warden found out about this. But it seemed to me he was not affraid of his/her wrath, but of loosing his/her support as he clearly stated this was a mistake, and not intended at all I hope he learned from the mistakes he made.
But why would he afraid to be loosing the support of the warden, if not, he too believed in peace? he could have unleashed the darkspawn and another blight just on the spot as he knew where the other old gods where, could take warden blood and made an army of intelligent darkspawn to rule over a legion of mindless followers, on which head an archdeamon would stand, but he did not.
All the more reason to kill him. Terribly sorry or no, if his "mistakes" all result in things like Blights and huge surface raids, then I shudderto think what else could happen as a result of his "mistakes." Someone like that is simply too dangerous to be left to their own devices.
And I've also come to ponder another point after reading your above post: if the Architect is cut off from the "song", how did he locate Urthemiel? He shouldn't know where any of the Old Gods are located without being able to follow the song somehow. I'd assume he used his not-so-sentient underlings to locate the Archdemon, but even that bodes ill: he managed to locate and awaken Urthemiel in a very small time-frame using limited resources.
If he is left alive, who's to say that he wouldn't be able to locate the other two just as quickly and efficiently? Isn't that part of his whole plan to begin with? No, finding the Old Gods is the last thing you want any darkspawn to do, so allowing the Architect to get anywhere near another Old God is a recipe for disaster (especially given his track record thus far).
Mizuno85 wrote...
the chance for freedom and peace, even if its little, was worth the price of a "little doubt" from my side. I never doubted his intentions, just the means on which he wanted to achive them. Alas, he was on his own, made his judgements based on little knowledge he could get hold of, so Iblame him not of the mistakes he had made, nor of his intentions, whichsounded to me good of nature and true of heart. so killing him was just not right.
It's not an easy decision to make. Both decisions are extremely risky - but I'm 100% sure the risk of battling primitive darkspawn for two more Blights is preferable to the risk of battling intelligent darkspawn forever. So, as unpleasant a decision as it might be, I still must kill the Architect whenever I meet him. He is simply too dangerous to be left alive.
Modifié par greengoron89, 22 septembre 2011 - 06:23 .
#191
Posté 22 septembre 2011 - 08:55
Mizuno85
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greengoron89 wrote...
Youwould've needed to read The Calling to know that - it's a book David Gaider wrote detailing the Architect's story pre-Awakening. In it, the Architect had formulated some kind of master plan to spread the taint toall living things in Thedas and seek out and destroy all of the Old Gods, in order to "make peace" between the darkspawn and the other races in the world.
Although, to me, that sounds more usurping power from your overlords so that you may conquer and enslave your enemies yourself - and you'll be much more efficient and likely to succeed since your army is now intelligent (in addition it having large numbers). You would be, for all intents and purposes, unstoppable - assuming your plan is a success, that is.
Anyway, you can find more information of The Calling here.
Hmm I do recall a note there on the architects desk (or somewhere in his lair) which said that past atempts where grave mistakes and he must find another way to stop the taint and "the song" together. I though this was a reffering to the calling in which he shows there must be some other way or there can never be peace.
greengoron89 wrote...
Also, Warden blood is required to awaken darkspawn because it induces resistance to their own corruption - but the darkspawn are still tainted nonetheless, and that taint will continue to spread to any and all living things that it comes into contact with - the Messenger is the perfect example of this. Not only is he awakened, but he's also benevolent and even helps many travelers later should you spare him.
Unfortunately, he also spreads the taint as he does this. It's not his fault in any way, it's just part of his biology as a darkspawn - and no amount of Warden blood can ever change that.
This much is true. Sad but true. Even though it might be debatable if he saved more than he doomed. Sometimes I hate bioware for those kind of things...
greengoron89 wrote...
The other races very much do serve themselves - which is a fundamental quality in all living species, as it ensures that species' very survival. I couldn't fault the darkspawn for that in and of itself - the problem, however, is that the survival of the darkspawn also requires the parasitization of another species just so they can reproduce.
Consider the possible repercussions of this fact. If the darkspawn are deprived of females to that end, then they will have to take them by force (as they have been for centuries). How are we supposed to make peace with a species like the darkspawn knowing this? Would the people of Thedas willingly hand over their own to the darkspawn just so their species might subsist?
A peace agreement would require that they would - and that brings a whole other slew of problems with it. The different races and organizations would never universally agree to such terms, and they'd end up warring with each other and amongst themselves as a result. Making peace with the darkspawn means making war with each other - it would be unavoidable.
I thought that they needed the broodmothers tp produce offspring in such huge numbers as the blights always... um.. consumed a lot of darkspawn in their wake, and otherwise do not need to reproduce in such dimensions. And I'm still not sure of how much of them (broodmothers) they need actually, and if they make all women to broodmothers... velannas sister and utha for example are not made into broodmothers, where utha is a grey warden, velannas sister doesen't even serve another purpose for them, yet they did not made her one. As I recall only the mothers acolytes used broodmothers (kal hirol) and the "chained" darkspawn driven to find the old gods and make an army for them.
The question stands however if they could ever be a willing broodmother (specutaltion of course) or if the already existing broodmothers would not suffice to fill the need of the darkspawn.
I agree however, to make a young girl into a broodmother by force should not be an option considered for an peace agreement.
greengoron89 wrote...
This is all assuming that the Architect's intentions are pure, that his planto awaken the darkspawn works, and that the darkspawn are uniform in their cause to make peace - which is unlikely to happen, as not all darkspawn will stand with him, and he'd likely never be able to awaken every darkspawn in Thedas. The ones who oppose him will make war with him, and the ones he hasn't awakened will continue seeking out the Old Gods - and all three factions would require Broodmothers to bolster their numbers as they war with one another.
If there is a civil war, the darkspawn would be thined out and their first target would be the broodmothers of the other faction. But did the architect, aside from the mother even HAD one broodmother? as far as i can recall he had none. Don't know what to make of it tough, really a though matter....
greengoron89 wrote...
Did I mention that Grey Wardens would also need to be sacrificed en masse to even begin to awaken the darkspawn? So we're losing more than just females of every race - we're also losing members of the one order that can actually end a Blight.
It is pointless, in any case. All paths lead to war and destruction for both the darkspawn and the people of Thedas. Therefore, I say once more that the Architect must die.
The architect does not need to kill gray wardens for their blood. he took "your" blood too, but even though he had the chance he did not kill you. He also would not have killed the gray wardens in vigils keep, alas the "first contact" was not well made ^^;;
A living warden can generate more blood than a dead one, so why would the architect want to slay them? If they give their blood willingly it would be a win-win situation. grey warden numbers "bolstered" by intelligent darkspawn who wanted to end the blights as much as the gray wardens, and if i am assuming correctly, awakended darkspawn can as much slay an archdemon as much as a warden could, given the taint and a "soul".
greengoron89 wrote...
I've come to the realization that cutting the darkspawn off from the "song" is not actually what causes them to awaken - it's resistance to the taint that does this. The taint itself only allows the darkspawn to become attuned to the "song" - but at the cost of their sentience, as the taint corrupts their mind and precludes sentience. This makes them compliant, and in their compliance become compelled by the "song" to seek out and release the Old Gods from their perpetual prisons.
Therefore, if the Old Gods were all destroyed and the "song" stopped, the darkspawn would still be no more sentient than they were before. The taint would continue to inhibit intelligence, and they'd be reduced to a race of primitive, bestial creatures with nothing to unify them for a Blight ever again - and, save for some skirmishes every now and then, the darkspawn threat will have been effectively neutralized forever.
sounds like enslavement and mass genocide to me though. easier to kill foes who are to dumb to strike back... but for what purpose? shouldn't every living being able to choose for themselves their paths?
greengoron89 wrote...
That is, unless you allow the Architect to awaken the darkspawn - then they will be become sentient and able to operate independently of any Archdemon, and the darkspawn threat will increase dramatically and may never be neutralized even if the "song" comes to an end. Thedas will be doomed to war with the darkspawn forever (and the darkspawn will be doomed to war with each other as well).
Again, all paths lead to war and destruction for everyone. Killing the Architect ensures two more Blights will occur, but sparing him ensures constant warfare with them long after the threat of Blights is no more. It's up to you to pick the lesser of two evils; choose wisely, for the future of Thedas could hang in the balance.
thats assuming he WANTS to fight all of thedas, to me he sounded more inclined to peace and freedom then destruction. Could you kill someone just based on an "if"?
greengoron89 wrote...
All the more reason to kill him. Terribly sorry or no, if his "mistakes" all result in things like Blights and huge surface raids, then I shudderto think what else could happen as a result of his "mistakes." Someone like that is simply too dangerous to be left to their own devices.
guess this was made on the lack of knowlede on the architects part, nothing I could blame him for, yet even kill him.
greengoron89 wrote...
And I've also come to ponder another point after reading your above post: if the Architect is cut off from the "song", how did he locate Urthemiel? He shouldn't know where any of the Old Gods are located without being able to follow the song somehow. I'd assume he used his not-so-sentient underlings to locate the Archdemon, but even that bodes ill: he managed to locate and awaken Urthemiel in a very small time-frame using limited resources.
If he is left alive, who's to say that he wouldn't be able to locate the other two just as quickly and efficiently? Isn't that part of his whole plan to begin with? No, finding the Old Gods is the last thing you want any darkspawn to do, so allowing the Architect to get anywhere near another Old God is a recipe for disaster (especially given his track record thus far).
he KNEW where the other twos where and choosed urthemiel as the weakest one of the remaining three, for his experiment just in case something went wrong (which it did), guess he thought it was a risk worthy of taking, as urthemiel would be awakend one time or another, but the chance remained that his experiment would bear fruits.... anyway, thats why I said he could unleash a blight anytime he wanted to. but he did not as he favored peace, just as he could have killed you and tainted your non warden friends as he held you prisoner.
mistakes be made, but his actions speak for him and his intentions
greengoron89 wrote...
It's not an easy decision to make. Both decisions are extremely risky - but I'm 100% sure the risk of battling primitive darkspawn for two more Blights is preferable to the risk of battling intelligent darkspawn forever. So, as unpleasant a decision as it might be, I still must kill the Architect whenever I meet him. He is simply too dangerous to be left alive.
the risk sould not be eleminated with you killing him. as the epiloge showed some of his emissaries escaped and hid. they could still continue his work, but without the architect, whom I view as an rather peaceloving creature, who knows what those emissaries might do...
rather haveing someone on my side of whom I strongly believe he favored peace, as to hope for forgiveness from one of his followers (for killing him) who might continue his work and might want vengance at some time.
#192
Posté 23 septembre 2011 - 01:55
OPMAGE
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I killed him because darkspawn are a disease. Even if they become intelligent, they will still need to violate the women of other species to reproduce. War would undoubtedly break out between darkspawn and the other races, and personally i would rather face a blight every 400 years until all the old gods die than have to deal with the constant threat of an intelligent darkspawn army.
On a minor note, the hatred of darkspawn brings the other races together.
On a minor note, the hatred of darkspawn brings the other races together.
#193
Posté 26 septembre 2011 - 10:14
Unionhack
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For RP reasons, Tycane (Dalish Elf Rogue and my Main, all around Chaotic Good) let him live, though I'm starting to regret that decision after reading the very well thought out reasonings I've seen in this thread. On my third playthrough with the character (I change him every time, he's a Dalish Elf instead of a City Elf for the first time now), I'll probably kill the Architect.
As for Saixer, my all-for-one sorta-evil Human Noble, I'll probably let him live on my second playthrough with the character, as opposed to killing him as I did my first time around.
Funny how things work like that.
As for Saixer, my all-for-one sorta-evil Human Noble, I'll probably let him live on my second playthrough with the character, as opposed to killing him as I did my first time around.
Funny how things work like that.
#194
Posté 27 septembre 2011 - 02:31
sleeping heart
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I killed him, because that's what my character does. He kills everyone unless there is a profit in keeping them alive, and there was nothing i wanted from the Architect save for his drop items.
Modifié par sleeping heart, 27 septembre 2011 - 02:32 .
#195
Guest_greengoron89_*
Posté 28 septembre 2011 - 04:05
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Forgive the delayed response - I've been busy for the last several days and haven't had time to address this post. I'll do it now:
After witnessing the events in the Dead Trenches, I don't think anyone should be made into a Broodmother. I wouldn't wish such a horrific fate on my worst enemy - though I sympathize with Branka, for she had little choice in the matter. But that's another discussion altogether.
The Mother was to be the Architect's Broodmother - she may have gone turncoat on him, but he attempted to awaken her and get her on his side nonetheless. For what purpose, who can say (I assume it was so she could spawn new, already awakened darkspawn)?
Either way, awakening Broodmothers seems to be a bad idea in general. I imagine they're probably severely mentally scarred from being gang raped and forced to cannibalize their friends and family, so I truly doubt Broodmothers could ever be awakened and possibly be sane in any way.
So unless the Architect wishes to awaken each darkspawn a Broodmother conceives individually (good luck with that), I'd say it's best not to let him keep experimenting. Thedas doesn't need more Mothers orchestrating huge surface raids - the darkspawn would be taking over long before the Sixth Blight even begins.
And he'll need A LOT of blood to awaken all of the darkspawn - how many Grey Wardens are you willing to give up to that end? He'd never be able to amass enough blood to do it with just a few blood cows.
He'll need a lot of Wardens - perhaps all of them. It sounds like the darkspawn are the only ones getting anything out of that deal.
Funny, since that's exactly what the Architect originally planned for Thedas so his people could be "free", and it's also been the darkspawns' sole goal for ages. It's a matter of beating the darkspawn to the punch - kill or be killed. But awakening the darkspawn will only make it that much easier for them to kill us first, and we don't want that... right?
That's exactly what you're doing by sparing him - you're doing it based on an "if." You have no idea what the Architect's true intentions are. He MIGHT be telling you the truth, but he also might be lying through his teeth. I'm more willing to believe the latter, as his previous actions completely and utterly contradict his "good intentions", despite his insistence that this is not the case.
You have no reason to believe what this creature tells you. You only know that it attacked Vigil's Keep, captured and killed the Grey Wardens, and captured and attempted to kill you - and that's not a very good track record for someone who doesn't want to be your enemy, no matter what excuses he comes up with in defense of his actions. He comes off as being manipulative and deceitful instead - like a demon who has been cornered, and is trying to bargain their way out of their impending death.
Therefore, he should die. There is no reason to trust him, and he's too dangerous to be left alive.
No, what it does is demonstrate that he doesn't give a damn about humanity at all. He's already concocted a plan to turn every living thing in Thedas into ghouls for the good of his own "people" - now, he risks corrupting an Old God into an Archdemon for the sake of his "experiments", knowing what would happen if he failed.
He has a blatant disregard for the safety of anyone but the darkspawn, obviously. His actions all throughout the Calling and Awakening demonstrate this. Trusting him to help Thedas is like trusting a serial killer not to butcher and kill people. It is pointless; the Architect must be destroyed, and so must the darkspawn. It is the only way.
And who knows what the Architect might do? Again, he gives the player no reason to trust him - and his past actions don't help his credibility any. You're taking a huge risk no matter what decision you end up making; personally, I prefer sticking with the devil I know, rather than the devil I don't.
But that's just me.
Mizuno85 wrote...
I thought that they needed the broodmothers tp produce offspring in such huge numbers as the blights always... um.. consumed a lot of darkspawn in their wake, and otherwise do not need to reproduce in such dimensions. And I'm still not sure of how much of them (broodmothers) they need actually, and if they make all women to broodmothers... velannas sister and utha for example are not made into broodmothers, where utha is a grey warden, velannas sister doesen't even serve another purpose for them, yet they did not made her one. As I recall only the mothers acolytes used broodmothers (kal hirol) and the "chained" darkspawn driven to find the old gods and make an army for them.
The question stands however if they could ever be a willing broodmother (specutaltion of course) or if the already existing broodmothers would not suffice to fill the need of the darkspawn.
I agree however, to make a young girl into a broodmother by force should not be an option considered for an peace agreement.
After witnessing the events in the Dead Trenches, I don't think anyone should be made into a Broodmother. I wouldn't wish such a horrific fate on my worst enemy - though I sympathize with Branka, for she had little choice in the matter. But that's another discussion altogether.
Mizuno85 wrote...
If there is a civil war, the darkspawn would be thined out and their first target would be the broodmothers of the other faction. But did the architect, aside from the mother even HAD one broodmother? as far as i can recall he had none. Don't know what to make of it tough, really a though matter....
The Mother was to be the Architect's Broodmother - she may have gone turncoat on him, but he attempted to awaken her and get her on his side nonetheless. For what purpose, who can say (I assume it was so she could spawn new, already awakened darkspawn)?
Either way, awakening Broodmothers seems to be a bad idea in general. I imagine they're probably severely mentally scarred from being gang raped and forced to cannibalize their friends and family, so I truly doubt Broodmothers could ever be awakened and possibly be sane in any way.
So unless the Architect wishes to awaken each darkspawn a Broodmother conceives individually (good luck with that), I'd say it's best not to let him keep experimenting. Thedas doesn't need more Mothers orchestrating huge surface raids - the darkspawn would be taking over long before the Sixth Blight even begins.
Mizuno85 wrote...
The architect does not need to kill gray wardens for their blood. he took "your" blood too, but even though he had the chance he did not kill you. He also would not have killed the gray wardens in vigils keep, alas the "first contact" was not well made ^^;;
A living warden can generate more blood than a dead one, so why would the architect want to slay them? If they give their blood willingly it would be a win-win situation. grey warden numbers "bolstered" by intelligent darkspawn who wanted to end the blights as much as the gray wardens, and if i am assuming correctly, awakended darkspawn can as much slay an archdemon as much as a warden could, given the taint and a "soul".
And he'll need A LOT of blood to awaken all of the darkspawn - how many Grey Wardens are you willing to give up to that end? He'd never be able to amass enough blood to do it with just a few blood cows.
He'll need a lot of Wardens - perhaps all of them. It sounds like the darkspawn are the only ones getting anything out of that deal.
Mizuno85 wrote...
sounds like enslavement and mass genocide to me though. easier to kill foes who are to dumb to strike back... but for what purpose? shouldn't every living being able to choose for themselves their paths?
Funny, since that's exactly what the Architect originally planned for Thedas so his people could be "free", and it's also been the darkspawns' sole goal for ages. It's a matter of beating the darkspawn to the punch - kill or be killed. But awakening the darkspawn will only make it that much easier for them to kill us first, and we don't want that... right?
Mizuno85 wrote...
thats assuming he WANTS to fight all of thedas, to me he sounded more inclined to peace and freedom then destruction. Could you kill someone just based on an "if"?
That's exactly what you're doing by sparing him - you're doing it based on an "if." You have no idea what the Architect's true intentions are. He MIGHT be telling you the truth, but he also might be lying through his teeth. I'm more willing to believe the latter, as his previous actions completely and utterly contradict his "good intentions", despite his insistence that this is not the case.
You have no reason to believe what this creature tells you. You only know that it attacked Vigil's Keep, captured and killed the Grey Wardens, and captured and attempted to kill you - and that's not a very good track record for someone who doesn't want to be your enemy, no matter what excuses he comes up with in defense of his actions. He comes off as being manipulative and deceitful instead - like a demon who has been cornered, and is trying to bargain their way out of their impending death.
Therefore, he should die. There is no reason to trust him, and he's too dangerous to be left alive.
Mizuno85 wrote...
he KNEW where the other twos where and choosed urthemiel as the weakest one of the remaining three, for his experiment just in case something went wrong (which it did), guess he thought it was a risk worthy of taking, as urthemiel would be awakend one time or another, but the chance remained that his experiment would bear fruits.... anyway, thats why I said he could unleash a blight anytime he wanted to. but he did not as he favored peace, just as he could have killed you and tainted your non warden friends as he held you prisoner.
mistakes be made, but his actions speak for him and his intentions
No, what it does is demonstrate that he doesn't give a damn about humanity at all. He's already concocted a plan to turn every living thing in Thedas into ghouls for the good of his own "people" - now, he risks corrupting an Old God into an Archdemon for the sake of his "experiments", knowing what would happen if he failed.
He has a blatant disregard for the safety of anyone but the darkspawn, obviously. His actions all throughout the Calling and Awakening demonstrate this. Trusting him to help Thedas is like trusting a serial killer not to butcher and kill people. It is pointless; the Architect must be destroyed, and so must the darkspawn. It is the only way.
Mizuno85 wrote...
the risk sould not be eleminated with you killing him. as the epiloge showed some of his emissaries escaped and hid. they could still continue his work, but without the architect, whom I view as an rather peaceloving creature, who knows what those emissaries might do...
rather haveing someone on my side of whom I strongly believe he favored peace, as to hope for forgiveness from one of his followers (for killing him) who might continue his work and might want vengance at some time.
And who knows what the Architect might do? Again, he gives the player no reason to trust him - and his past actions don't help his credibility any. You're taking a huge risk no matter what decision you end up making; personally, I prefer sticking with the devil I know, rather than the devil I don't.
But that's just me.
Modifié par greengoron89, 28 septembre 2011 - 04:09 .
#196
Posté 28 septembre 2011 - 05:06
maxernst
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greengoron89 wrote...
Mizuno85 wrote...
Mizuno85 wrote...
Mizuno85 wrote...
Mizuno85 wrote...
Mizuno85 wrote...
thats assuming he WANTS to fight all of thedas, to me he sounded more inclined to peace and freedom then destruction. Could you kill someone just based on an "if"?
That's exactly what you're doing by sparing him - you're doing it based on an "if." You have no idea what the Architect's true intentions are. He MIGHT be telling you the truth, but he also might be lying through his teeth. I'm more willing to believe the latter, as his previous actions completely and utterly contradict his "good intentions", despite his insistence that this is not the case.
You have no reason to believe what this creature tells you. You only know that it attacked Vigil's Keep, captured and killed the Grey Wardens, and captured and attempted to kill you - and that's not a very good track record for someone who doesn't want to be your enemy, no matter what excuses he comes up with in defense of his actions. He comes off as being manipulative and deceitful instead - like a demon who has been cornered, and is trying to bargain their way out of their impending death.
Therefore, he should die. There is no reason to trust him, and he's too dangerous to be left alive.Mizuno85 wrote...
Mizuno85 wrote...
the risk sould not be eleminated with you killing him. as the epiloge showed some of his emissaries escaped and hid. they could still continue his work, but without the architect, whom I view as an rather peaceloving creature, who knows what those emissaries might do...
rather haveing someone on my side of whom I strongly believe he favored peace, as to hope for forgiveness from one of his followers (for killing him) who might continue his work and might want vengance at some time.
And who knows what the Architect might do? Again, he gives the player no reason to trust him - and his past actions don't help his credibility any. You're taking a huge risk no matter what decision you end up making; personally, I prefer sticking with the devil I know, rather than the devil I don't.
But that's just me.
Trust is the crux of the matter. I judge people by what they do, not by what they say or why they say they did it. I'm not willing to believe in good intentions when there are no unselfish, altruistic actions to back them up. There's no evidence but words that the Architect is a "peaceloving creature". He's willing to help the Warden kill the Mother because the Mother is trying to kill him. And even if he were peaceloving, the results of his experiments to date (triggering a blight, creating the Mother who has wreaked havoc) don't inspire faith in his ability to control his results. At best he's a mad scientist who might inadvertently destroy the world, regardless of his intentions. With results that bad, who CARES what his intentions are?
Modifié par maxernst, 28 septembre 2011 - 05:08 .
#197
Guest_Dalira Montanti_*
Posté 28 septembre 2011 - 06:18
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I killed him...his fashion scene was just awful
really I killed him because I wanted the blights to end I really wanted this, but alas Da2 proved otherwise >.>
really I killed him because I wanted the blights to end I really wanted this, but alas Da2 proved otherwise >.>
#198
Posté 28 septembre 2011 - 06:36
Sinmara
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After I read the book I killed with any doubt. in my first gameplay I didnt know the book and folled my feeling, he was just a liar with greater plans behind and not a savior. the changes he wanted were dangerous.
#199
Posté 28 septembre 2011 - 06:56
Phaffner
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I killed him, Something just kept telling me not to trust him so I went with my instints and killed him,
#200
Posté 09 octobre 2011 - 05:05
Kuramyra
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I let him live, the way i see it the future will be more interesting this way~
I don't want to kill all the darkspawn, i like fighting. Need to let some live so they don't all die out. :I
I don't want to kill all the darkspawn, i like fighting. Need to let some live so they don't all die out. :I
