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#201
Gorath Alpha

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The two numbers, 30 and 60 FPS, are related to the average human senses.  Beyond 60 FPS, very few people can recognize increased speed levels.  At half of that figure, the average human's senses are satisfied that the animation is adequately smooth (variable in the 25-30 FPS range).  Those aren't my personal numbers; I prefer a minimum of 40 FPS for the lowest frame rate. 

Personally, 25 FPS doesn't seem smooth to me.  A few years ago, many of the game developers began getting away from the gross lies they had previously named as minimums, and began using the 25 FPS number, at Medium resolution, as a "Minimum" to shoot for (I think that Half Life and Half Life 2 from Valve was among the first in that trend) at low quality settings, and 60 FPS at the same Medium resolution, but Medium/High (mixed) Quality settings for the "recommended". 

I had been a longtime nVIDIA graphics fan at the time, and my grandkids had reached their adolescent years, so I set up two more PCs here, in my family room, for the boys to play each other across my LAN.  I had three of the Geforce FX 5n00 graphics cards then.  None were adequate for Half Life.  None were adequate for Oblivion.  nVIDIA had lied to us & Bethesda had swallowed that lie.  Valve did not.  Their demos in the weeks leading up to Half-Life 2's release were filled with frequent sarcastic remarks about the poor Geforce performance. 

http://www.extremete...,1733184,00.asp

I've built my own PCs for most of the last 24 years, and I thought I knew enough not to be taken by BS such as nVIDIA's marketing scam artists were spouting, but I trusted nVIDIA, to my eventual distress.  I'd been working, still, up to that summer of 2005, but was making the adjustment to retirement and far less income the following winter, so I had to get replacement parts off of eBay. 

NotTheKing was a longtime game player active on Bethesda's forums, with a lot of spare time to compile his lists.  My own are inverted from his, with the high performance on top, and minimums on the bottom.  The only below minimums covered are those that in prior years were better for the time frame than they are now.  Neither NTK now I have included Crossfire or SLI pairs.  If I ever knew why he didn't, I've forgotten.  My own reason is that I consider it economically poor value.  The only place it makes sense to me is when one card of the very highest performance isn't satisfactory, and you match it with a second of the same kind.

PSU:       Corsair HX 520w
Mobo:      M2N-SLI Deluxe nForce 570 SLI mcp
CPU:       AthlonX2 3000+
Ram:       2 gig Corsair DDR 800 dual channel configuration
GPU:       8800 GTS 640mb
Sound:    XFI-Extreme Gamer Fatal1ty
HDisk:     Hitachi HTD725032VLA SCI/SATA
Monitor:  ViewSonic 19" WideScreen TFT

It
was built for the sole purpose of playing Crysis and it performed well
at max settings but gave only 20 fps - I found your cut off limit of 25
fps a little confusing so perhaps you could explain a little as to why
25 fps should be the minimum?

My request revolves around the
longevity of this system.  It seems to just keep chewing up the games
that come its way and as yet I have found no game that I could not
enjoyably play at high settings.  Given the current delay in new
consoles and your stated belief that DX9.0C will rule the roost for a
while yet, is it un-reasonable to expect another two years out of this
system?  Where would you suggest upgrading this rig?  How can I get
the greatest improvement for the least expense?

The only thing (there are two, but inter-related) I never liked about the 8800s was the waste heat they produce, and that was compounded by the defective firmware that controlled the cooling fan(s).  The 9800s, except for the GTX-plus, were exactly the same as the 8800s, cooler running, with the corrected firmware.  The GTS250 is that 9800 GTX-plus, once again.  Either the 9800 or the 250 would make a good "insurance" bump to get a lowered heat signature. 

I have that same Asus mainboard in a PC here, with an X2 6000 in it, and a Radeon HD 4870.  The slowest AMD X2 I can recall was the 3600, and I wasn't aware it came in an AM-2 package.  I thought that it was s939 only.  If you have any AMD slower than a 4200, I would look for something faster while AM-2 CPUs are still relatively easy to find.

Gorath

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 20 novembre 2010 - 04:46 .


#202
Guest_Glaucon_*

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Gorath Alpha wrote...

The two numbers, 30 and 60 FPS, are related to the average human senses.  Beyond 60 FPS, very few people can recognize increased speed levels.  At half of that figure, the average human's senses are satisfied that the animation is adequately smooth (variable in the 25-30 FPS range).  Those aren't my personal numbers; I prefer a minimum of 40 FPS for the lowest frame rate...

.....   .....   .....   .....

The only thing (there are two, but inter-related) I never liked about the 8800s was the waste heat they produce, and that was compounded by the defective firmware that controlled the cooling fan(s).  The 9800s, except for the GTX-plus, were exactly the same as the 8800s, cooler running, with the corrected firmware.  The GTS250 is that 9800 GTX-plus, once again.  Either the 9800 or the 250 would make a good "insurance" bump to get a lowered heat signature. 

I have that same Asus mainboard in a PC here, with an X2 6000 in it, and a Radeon HD 4870.  The slowest AMD X2 I can recall was the 3600, and I wasn't aware it came in an AM-2 package.  I thought that it was s939 only.  If you have any AMD slower than a 4200, I would look for something faster while AM-2 CPUs are still relatively easy to find.

Gorath


Thanks for the reply Gorath.  I understand the argument about the Human perceptual range being 30- 65 fps; I've never noticed any major flaws running as low as 20 though, but maybe that's just me?

Asus released a bios upgrade (beta) for the M2N that accepts the AM3 Phenom range CPUs: CPU Support  which is dead handy as I can keep an otherwise excellent mobo for a few more years.  Yes, the 3000+ is a hot little puppy but I use an Antec 900 case but still with the adequate stock cooler.

I bought my 8800 GTS from Leadtek but I'm not sure which release it was as I understand that some of the early 8800s were flawed.  Mine seems fine though.  It idles at 47 Celsius and whilst playing DA:O with a mild overclock [GPU: 600mhz, Memory: 850mhz, Shader: 1400mhz  --- PCI-e 3000mhz]  it never goes above 60 Celsius so they are all well within tolerance.  I love my 8800 GTS 640 and although I could get a 9800 for £70 I would loose 128mb of gddr 3 ram - there are 1024mb ram cards but they use the memory interface trick you mentioned to an earlier respondent. So I would only see the improvement from the extra 16 stream-processors? 

The 210 - 240 series cards don't seem to offer any improvement that I cannot force with an overclock.  The only major improvement being the higher stream-pipes that they have.  I'm thinking that maybe the GTX 460 is the way to go but most of them have incompatible memory interfaces too.  Why do they do that?

OH the dilemma of the budget gamer Image IPB

Many thanks. 

#203
Tyrax Lightning

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Glaucon: I've looked up your PSU, & it only has 18 Amps on the 12V Rails. This is kinda bare minimum for good gaming, & I wouldn't call it future-proof at all. If ya ever get a stronger Graphics Card, this PSU could choke on the job of keeping it adequately amped up. Consider getting a better PSU before this one stops sufficing.

#204
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Glaucon wrote...

Hi Gorath Alpha,

I was directed here from a recent thread in the general forum and have read much of this thread.  Could I borrow some of your expertise?  I built the following system in September 2007:

PSU:       Corsair HX 520w
Mobo:      M2N-SLI Deluxe nForce 570 SLI mcp
CPU:       AthlonX2 3000+
Ram:       2 gig Corsair DDR 800 dual channel configuration
GPU:       8800 GTS 640mb
Sound:    XFI-Extreme Gamer Fatal1ty
HDisk:     Hitachi HTD725032VLA SCI/SATA
Monitor:  ViewSonic 19" WideScreen TFT

It was built for the sole purpose of playing Crysis and it performed well at max settings but gave only 20 fps - I found your cut off limit of 25 fps a little confusing so perhaps you could explain a little as to why 25 fps should be the minimum?

My request revolves around the longevity of this system.  It seems to just keep chewing up the games that come its way and as yet I have found no game that I could not enjoyably play at high settings.  Given the current delay in new consoles and your stated belief that DX9.0C will rule the roost for a while yet, is it un-reasonable to expect another two years out of this system?  Where would you suggest upgrading this rig?  How can I get the greatest improvement for the least expense?

Many thanks.  


Side comment...
"How can I get the greatest improvement for the least expense?"
You don't. Your system looks like a good balance of components. Upgrade it all when it blows up or those two years pass and you can afford a 5X GTX. It's a waste of time to upgrade just a single 8X, 9X, 2X at this point, since the new cards are total beasts and require other components to feed work to it at an adequate speed, too. Also, your PSU is just about enough, so you get a nasty chain reaction upon changing anything.

EDIT: As for 25FPS... it is the point just after which the delay between your input and the game displaying it on screen begins skyrocketing... 25FPS; at most 40ms delay (ideally). 20FPS; 50ms, 15FPS; 67ms, 10FPS; 100ms, 5FPS; 200ms

30FPS;  33ms, 35FPS; 29ms, 40FPS; 25ms

You practically add these to your ping. 20FPS is probably the lowest you should ever tolerate. It gets quite small above 40FPS.

Modifié par NewMessageN00b, 20 novembre 2010 - 07:29 .


#205
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@Tyrax Lightning + NewMessageN00b



Yeah, I've just been checking and the rig doesn't seem to be that flexible given todays components. To upgrade this rig to an acceptable state would cost around £300. I built the system for £580 so it's not looking particularly sensible to try to get anymore out of this rig. You're both right about the PSU - I could put a GTX 460 (420w) in there but it would limit the CPU I could put in. The Phenom X2 555 has a 120w footprint so that's out and it was the only one worth purchasing.



Oh well, I guess I'll just have to be mean to it and run it max clocked until she pops and fizzes a bit. I wish tech would just slow down a bit; considering that no developer has released a game that needs anywhere near the sort of rig you could build for £1000 - £1500.



Thank you all for the input, it's appreciated.

#206
Viiper

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anyone? :D

#207
Tyrax Lightning

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Glaucon: This is the PSU my new Computer is using: OCZ Fatal1ty OCZ550FTY 550W ATX12V v2.2 / EPS12V SLI Ready 80 PLUS Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply

This one has 25 Amps on it's 12V Rails. :happy:

Viiper: My apologies, i'm not qualified to answer your question. :( Ya might wanna wait for Gorath on that one. :blush:

#208
Viiper

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awe okay =) no worries. when does he show up?

Modifié par Viiper, 21 novembre 2010 - 07:53 .


#209
Tyrax Lightning

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Viiper wrote...

awe okay =) no worries. when does he show up?

I don't know of any set pattern or schedule of his appearances.

#210
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Viiper wrote...

awe okay =) no worries. when does he show up?


Above or equal with 9800GTX, below 9800GX2.

#211
Gorath Alpha

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Tyrax Lightning wrote...

I don't know of any set pattern or schedule of his appearances.

The thing is, I never have included either CF or SLI, and NTK never did.  This is near the middle of the very first message that started this thread, like footnotes to the physical list:

Gorath Alpha wrote...

(Major Snip there)

Suffixes, from Good to Awful

ATI Suffixes: XTX > XT > XL > Pro > GTO > Vanilla > GT > SE > Hyper Anything

nVidia: Ultra > GTX > GT > GS > Vanilla > LE = XT  > VE > TC = TE (Turbocache, any variety)

PLEASE, take notice of the intermixed generations of cards, showing that "new" doesn't mean very much when the card isn't the fastest and most expensive that you can buy. 

If Dragon Age: Origins tells you it cannot detect a supported video card, it usually is telling you about an Intel video chip (really crappy), or a very old video card, such as a Radeon 9700, or Geforce GF4 Ti-4200.  . 

* Simply because NTK's list had included them, some cards that cannot handle the Dx9.0b SM3 shaders were still included, like the X600- downward Radeons, marked with the asterisks.  This list was originally created by NotTheKing, and maintained from 2005 to 2008.  All onboard solutions, business grade cards, and all of the atrociously bad Geforce FX cards  just had to be removed! 

Note: neither NTK nor I have included multi-graphics setups such as Crossfire and SLI.  The original SLI was problematic, and it has always been a poor economic value.  For much less than the cost and complexity of two cards together, make the move to the next rung upward on the performance ladder. 
-

I like to keep these articles fairly up to date, but don't always add anything new at the end to bring them to the top.  The long feud that Intel and nVIDIA have been involved in, about whether or not nVIDIA's contract with Intel carried on into current i3 / i5 / i7 territory (for that matter into "Core Duo" even), for supplying chipsets to mainboard makers for newer CPUs may stop short of the courthouse.  nVIDIA has sued Intel over it, and Intel has lost some receint suits.  But they both have just agreed to ask for a continuance to pusue some legal talks with each other. 

I'd thought I had a much more recent mention of the Radeon APUs than nearly nine moths ago; so I thought that I'd be amending the last previous comments here in the thread that referred to the "Fusion" from AMD, because this is coming about purely because of AMD's competition, but it belongs at the end, after all. 


Gorath

Modifié par Gorath Alpha, 02 décembre 2010 - 09:48 .


#212
Viiper

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thanks :D!!

#213
Tyrax Lightning

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Oops. It's been ages since i've read the 1st Post...

#214
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Tyrax Lightning wrote...

Glaucon: This is the PSU my new Computer is using: OCZ Fatal1ty OCZ550FTY 550W ATX12V v2.2 / EPS12V SLI Ready 80 PLUS Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply

This one has 25 Amps on it's 12V Rails. :happy:

Viiper: My apologies, i'm not qualified to answer your question. :( Ya might wanna wait for Gorath on that one. :blush:


Tidy.  I've always been tempted by OCZ components and have almost bought their RAM on several occasions.  Do you have much OCZ kit?  Because I'd like to know if their up to the mark or just another fish in the sea.


Bit of a Corsair junky myself.

#215
Tyrax Lightning

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Glaucon wrote...

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

Glaucon: This is the PSU my new Computer is using: OCZ Fatal1ty OCZ550FTY 550W ATX12V v2.2 / EPS12V SLI Ready 80 PLUS Certified Modular Active PFC Power Supply

This one has 25 Amps on it's 12V Rails. :happy:

Viiper: My apologies, i'm not qualified to answer your question. :( Ya might wanna wait for Gorath on that one. :blush:


Tidy. I've always been tempted by OCZ components and have almost bought their RAM on several occasions. Do you have much OCZ kit? Because I'd like to know if their up to the mark or just another fish in the sea.


Bit of a Corsair junky myself.

The OCZ PSU has served me superbly thus far, but it's the only OCZ item in my build. I've got barrelloads of brands in my PC all at once. :D Broadway Com Corp., OCZ, AMD, SAPPHIRE, Cooler Master, Arctic Cooling, Western Digital, Nexus, Lite-On, Samsung, Gigabyte, I-Rocks, & a mystery manufacturer for the 3 Stock Case Fans that came with the Case. I can't remember which manufacturer was for my RAM, but they might be Kingstons... Oh yeah, guess I should mention Microsoft as well, for the OS.

I can't vouch for non PSU OCZ products at this time. Hope i'm of help anyway. :)

#216
Gorath Alpha

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Gorath Alpha wrote...

Tyrax Lightning wrote...

I don't know of any set pattern or schedule of his appearances.


I like to keep these articles fairly up to date, but don't always add anything new at the end to bring them to the top.  The long feud that Intel and nVIDIA have been involved in, about whether or not nVIDIA's contract with Intel carried on into current i3 / i5 / i7 territory (for that matter into "Core Duo" even), for supplying chipsets to mainboard makers for newer CPUs may stop short of the courthouse.  nVIDIA had sued Intel over it, and Intel has lost some recent suits.  But they both have just agreed to ask for a continuance to pusrue some legal talks with each other. 

I'd thought I had a much more recent mention of the Radeon APUs than nearly nine moths ago; so I thought that I'd be amending the last previous comments here in the thread that referred to the "Fusion" from AMD, because this is coming about purely because of AMD's competition, but it belongs at the end, after all. 

The opening round of AMD / ATI "Fusion" chips are already in the hands of manufacturers of Netbooks, Notebooks, and Laptops, and it is the smallest of them that has Intel stirred up the most.  The Atom CPU, with various of Intel's really old onboard chips, dominates the Netbook market.  The newest AMD products equal the CPUs in Intel's version, while the graphics make Intel's offering look like last century's EGA graphics.

The desktop APUs will be next out the gate, although Intel isn't the one ducking for cover regarding those.  They will be very hard on nVIDIA's basic business graphics cards and Mainline Gaming cards' bottom line. 

As per the quote from what I wrote about an hour ago, instead of going to court, and generating legal expenses, Intel & nVIDIA apparently are in negotiations. 

www.dailytech.com/Intel+and+NVIDIA+Prepare+to+Kiss+and+Make+up+With+Settlement/article20305.htm

Intel wants to have the nVIDIA "ION" graphics for Atom, but as things stand now, they aren't able to do so at a price that will compete.  It's still conjecture whether or not they accomplish anything at the bargaining table. 


Gorath

#217
Tyrax Lightning

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I wouldn't have any complaints with AMD becoming top dog of both the Graphics & CPU Market as long as AMD doesn't get full of itself because of it. Sadly, getting full of themselves is a specialty of business people, so I wonder if Intel & nVIDIA working stuff out between them will be a good thing. I would hate for AMD to get big headed & start acting like Microsoft.

#218
Strikers1945

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Are you using Fraps to check the frame rate or a console command?

#219
Gorath Alpha

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With a Radeon graphics card, I have ATI Tray Tools loaded to read back both my FPS and my GPU temperature readings, in the top right corner of the game screen. The rankings are usually based on Toms Hardware's charts, using the game benches from the current game they use with the highest use of pixel shaders (I don't care how well a card runs in a Shooter or RTS game, only in CRPGs, almost all of which trend to high shader use).


#220
Tyrax Lightning

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Strikers1945 wrote...

Are you using Fraps to check the frame rate or a console command?

Funny ya should mention that, I recently downloaded the Trial version of Fraps. Anyone know how good it is at it's FPS assessment?

#221
Strikers1945

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Gorath Alpha wrote...

With a Radeon graphics card, I have ATI Tray Tools loaded to read back both my FPS and my GPU temperature readings, in the top right corner of the game screen. The rankings are usually based on Toms Hardware's charts, using the game benches from the current game they use with the highest use of pixel shaders (I don't care how well a card runs in a Shooter or RTS game, only in CRPGs, almost all of which trend to high shader use).


www.guru3d.com/article/ati-tray-tools-/

Is this the app?

#222
Gorath Alpha

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I tend to use Major Geeks for downloads. Here it is on their site:

http://majorgeeks.co...ools_d4569.html


#223
Strikers1945

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Wow. That program is complicated. Looks like you can OC the VC too.



With default settings it only shows the FPS in the top right corner. Where is the option for GPU temp? I tried checking the OSD settings but the only option for temperature is under the FlashOSD tab. Do you enable that? Is the Flash setting used for intermittent refreshes / flashing of the readings on the screen?

#224
Guest_Calin Pandurescu_*

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I must say, in the past i had a nvidia 9800gt, and the game Dragon Age was running very bad in terms of performance. Next, i had a nvidia gtx275, and the game was running bad, even with overclock by the video card to the limits and the processor ( intel i5) and the ram ( 6gb ddr3)

So i have now a nvidia gtx470, with no overclock, and the game runs great, No more slow fps in some areas like Market in Denerim, and the area by the fire in Ostagar. I have constant 60 fps, with vertical sync on. :)



So my conclusion is the game needs a very powerful video card and system to run at max settings, AND TO RUN CONSTANTLY at a specific frame ( in my case 60 fps, because the monitor has 60Hz on native resolution). Or the game has a very deep problem in terms of optimization, and bioware dosen't have any idea how to fix that, or they don't know. Or they are concentrated to Dragon Age 2.

I want a single thing from Dragon Age 2. To know how to "extract" the PC resources in a intelligent way. :)

#225
georgiad95

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I usually play Dragon Age on my desktop, but I'm getting a laptop for Christmas and was wondering if it would run with these specifications:

AMD Athlon™ II Dual-Core Processor P340

3 GB RAM

ATI Radeon™ HD 4250 Graphics

320 GB Hard drive



I'm particularly worried about the graphics card now that I've looked at this forum. I don't mind at all if I have to play on a low setting, as I would just like to be able to run the game fairly smoothly. Thank you to anyone who can help.