153 réponses à ce sujet

[elearon1]

>>I think it is very safe to say that they were an expanding amoral (which is not the same as immoral) empire.<<



The problem with this assertion is you cannot have an amoral culture. A fundamental part of becoming and defining culture is developing a morality shared by the members of said culture. This morality - be it good or bad - allows a society to function along a shared foundation of acceptable behavior. ("acceptable" as relative to the culture in question)



>>Certainly the Magisters who ran the Tevinter Empire were amoral at best.<<



This is more likely to a point. Individuals can certainly be amoral and tyrants more so than the common people ... but you're statement "amoral at best" doesn't make a great deal of sense - what is the step down from "amorality"? It isn't immorality, because an amoral person won't devolve into immorality - as you point out, they are two very distinct concepts. Psychopathy? Possibly, but most amoral people are going to be psychopaths (or more likely sociopaths) already, so that isn't really a step down.

[Curlain]

Dreadz666 wrote...

caradoc2000 wrote...

I think the DAO portrayal of elves is a refreshing alternative to the usual stereotype.

Agreed. DAO is practically unique in portraying elves as something other than perfect and superior to humans in every aspect.

Not that unique, the Witcher book series had this idea of elves being 2nd class citizens on the way out quite a while back (and it appears in the game based of that series as well).

One convention I would actually like a fantasy game series to actually challenge is the idea of humans as the dominant race in a fantasy game setting, because in nearly all of them, no matter what the status of other races (ie elves being either superior, or 2nd class citizens as in DA and the Witcher) humans are the dominant and most widespread race.  What would really be a change would be to see some setting where humans are the race on the way out, or enslaved etc, and who are no longer the majority.  That would something really unique for a fantasy RPG game setting

Modifié par Curlain, 31 mars 2010 - 09:54 .

[nikki191]

personally i prefer the history of origins, the way the elves, lost so much, the way they are dispised and mistreated, the fight to recapture some of their lost past with the dalish and the city elves sense of comunity despite the way they are treated like crap by most humans.

the female city elf origin is bar none my personal favourite, and the fact at the end you can choose to give the alienage not only independance and its own laws but a seat in the landsmeet to me is the start of change.

for me in dragon age origins the only way for the elves is forward to bigger and better things.

Modifié par nikki191, 31 mars 2010 - 09:48 .

[Dansayshi]

Wouldnt mind if the elves had an Origins which tied in later on in the game. The Dwarves had Orzammar, the humans had the whole royalty thing pretty much entwined into the politics throughout the game, especially at the end. The city and dalish elves got afew lines of dialogue.

[Yendi]

I like the opressed elf perpective in this game, haven't been so interested in a computer game elf story since the dark elves of Morrowind. It would be nice of you had more of an option to either rebel or to change humans view of elves in the game though, but I guess the "Kill all humans" DLC won't be happening anytime soon.

[elearon1]

>>One convention I would actually like a fantasy game series to actually challenge is the idea of humans as the dominant race in a fantasy game setting<<



There are a few reasons for this. One, just looking at human nature, we are tenacious, aggressive, adaptable, and quick to multiply. Second, since we are humans it is an easier thing for us to relate to a world dominated by human beings ... we understand the good and bad of such a world with little additional effort necessary, so the storyteller can focus on those things which make the setting different in fundamental ways - such as the nature of magic, the non human races, etc. Third, in a world where humans were the subservient race much of the story would necessarily focus on them trying to throw off that oppression - human conceit would demand it - which severely limits the kind of story which can be told.



I would not call humans the dominate race in the Lord of the Rings books; rather they are coming into their time as the other races are in decline ... in fact the entire point of the second book (and why the movie botched the message so bad) was that humans were having to fend for themselves and could no longer rely on the aid of the other races.

[Madhaus]

The elves seen as a lower race by opressing humans is one of the most original and strong points of DA. It's a drastic change from the so-classic image of the noble elf playing his harp and riding a white horse.



You want Legolas ? Just play Lord of the Rings ;-)

[IanPolaris]

What's particularly tragic about the elves is that the city elves especially really *have* become weak, cowardly, and even servile in many (perhaps most) cases. Certainly unless your protagonist is a city elf themselves (if you come from any other background even if you are an elf it's not enough) the first instinct of the elves when their home is attacked is to cut and run.



The Dalish when confronted by danger aren't much better (as Sten Acidly points out when you talke to Zathrien in the Dalish camp).



In short, in addition to being boned by simply logistics of breeding and population, I also think the very drive to survive as a race has been smashed out of the DAO elves....even the Dalish....and IMHO that's why there is a lot of human-hate (understandeably so) amongst the elves.



-Polaris

[Xandurpein]

Curlain wrote...

One convention I would actually like a fantasy game series to actually challenge is the idea of humans as the dominant race in a fantasy game setting, because in nearly all of them, no matter what the status of other races (ie elves being either superior, or 2nd class citizens as in DA and the Witcher) humans are the dominant and most widespread race.  What would really be a change would be to see some setting where humans are the race on the way out, or enslaved etc, and who are no longer the majority.  That would something really unique for a fantasy RPG game setting

Recommended reading is Steven Brust book cycle of the assassin Vlad Taltos. In that setting the elves, who also live much longer than humans, are the dominant spieces that rules the Kingdom and humans occupy more or less the same marginalized position that the elves do in Dragon Age. It's also a damned fine story.

[Curlain]

Xandurpein wrote...

Curlain wrote...

One convention I would actually like a fantasy game series to actually challenge is the idea of humans as the dominant race in a fantasy game setting, because in nearly all of them, no matter what the status of other races (ie elves being either superior, or 2nd class citizens as in DA and the Witcher) humans are the dominant and most widespread race.  What would really be a change would be to see some setting where humans are the race on the way out, or enslaved etc, and who are no longer the majority.  That would something really unique for a fantasy RPG game setting

Recommended reading is Steven Brust book cycle of the assassin Vlad Taltos. In that setting the elves, who also live much longer than humans, are the dominant spieces that rules the Kingdom and humans occupy more or less the same marginalized position that the elves do in Dragon Age. It's also a damned fine story.

Cheers, I'll check it out

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

I like humans the most but i love the Dalish elves there story is neat they live away from the oppression of humans i mean this is like american history here and Dalish are the american indians being pushed off there land and being forced to move from camp to camp i thought that was neat how you can relate the two.

[vigna]

My Dalish Elf PC is the hotness. Hah, anyway. I like that the Elves have come across hard times in the DA universe. I think it will be a point of plot in DA 2.

[Avissel]

Madhaus wrote...
You want Legolas ? Just play Lord of the Rings ;-)

No see, he wants "Scary Dark Elves"

He wants to be Drizzit.

[goofygoff]

My Female City Elf certainly got the shaft. I had to get Alistair's approval pretty high first though.

[Varyen]

I perfer to play none human races in most RPGs, normally elves for that matter. There's something about the elves that attracts me to them that I can't put to words. I can see why the dragon age team did what they did to the elves in this game regardless if I agree with it or not. In most games & books, elves are revered as the most ancient, most powerful & the wisest race in said RPG & book. Here the dragon age team striped them of all but the most ancient race & making them the weakest of all the races. Do I agree with & like it? No but it does add a certain amount of drama & intrige to the game when it comes to playing an elf that's not in most other RPGs & books.

[Ferelden Templar]

I'm actually stunned people are talking about game balance in a single player game...



Elven advantages are clear - they make the best mages here stat-wise. They gain unique skills and talents choosing Dalish or City elf backgrounds. Flavor wise it works for me since they have hardships the other races can't fathom.



If it is about game-balance I really suggest you give your concerns when this game becomes an MMO.

[Gentleman Jack]

I haven't read this whole thread. I might be a little bit out of text with what this thread is about but has to deal with a elf character so here it is. I have imported a cusland human character into awakenings and have played a little of the storyline in awakenings. And had a huge thirst to import my dalish elf rogue who I think is just amazing in awakenings. But?

I have already played into the deep roads, and sealed the tunnels in the vigil basement already on the cusland character and played through the wending woods. but seems there might be something wrong with my elf character as they haven't cleared the rubble in the basement to get into the tunnels. and yet I have been through most of amaranthine, saved the dudes daughter, cleared the farm land, gone through wending woods and have collected the granite for the dwarf. but still no rubble has been cleared has anybody else played a dalish elf character? not to mention I did the deep roads tunnels on the cusland character before I even went to wending woods just curious if anybody else remebers the story time line on there elf rogue character.

[IanPolaris]

Jack,



It's simple enough. Until you've COMPLETED one of the major quests (and for the Wending Woods that means going through the Silverite Mines), the basement rubble remains. Once you complete a major quest, the rubble is cleared and you can go into that little section of the Deep Roads underneath the Vigil.



-Polaris

[Alikain]

One thing I like about DA elves is that, they don’t follow the same settings us other fiction fantasy story when it’s always the elf are either fighting the other races or they are fighting they dark cousins. Something that Sarethia said, alienage elder said which I love very much. “Alienages have existed for as long as elves and Shems have lived in same lands. Ours isn’t even the worst: they say that Val Royeaus has ten thousand elves living in a space no bigger than Denerim’s market. Their walls are supposed to be so high that daylight doesn’t reach the vhenadahl until midday. But don’t be so anxious to start tearing down the walls and picking fights with the guards. They keep out more than they keep in. We don’t have to live here, you know. Sometimes a family gets a good break; they buy a house in the dock, or the outskirts of the town. If they’re lucky, they come back to the alienage after the looters have burned their house down. The unlucky ones just go to the paupers field. Here, were among family. We look out for each other. Here, we do what we can to remember the old ways. The flat-ears who’ve gone out there, they’re stuck. They’ll never be human, and they’ve gone and thrown away being elves, too. So where does that leave them? Nowhere.”



The elven have the advantages here, they know well that for every civilisation that rises to the top must one day fall? this is why they not in any hurry to get to the top.

[Bryy_Miller]

weyrleader wrote...

Just want to put my two cents in and just say that I would really like to see a race or family of elves in the next DA that get the respect they deserve.  I'm kind of tired of seeing them portrayed as vermin, sometimes idiotic do-wishers (ie. Micah in DA:A), and fearful-minded nomadic dwellers.  This just isn't how I've come to see the "elf" in my travels through the fantasy realm, and have always prefered to play an elf character in RPGs.

Here's the thing, though: Dragon Age is NOT your personal D&D romp. It is someone else's story.

[Inzhuna]

I would like to see the elves from Rivain. They seem to live peacefully with humans. (if I didn't confuse anything) Plus they might actually be dark-skinned (since Rivaini humans are)

[Sarah1281]

Within 500 years.....a thousand on the outside, I don't think there will be any meaningful elven populations anywhere in Thedas.

I agree. When elves have children with humans, humans are born. Since humans and dwarves have half-dwarven children together, I would assume that an elf and a dwarf would have a dwarf child and I don't think we know anything about qunari gene dominance but since the Qun does away with the very concepts of romatic relationships and parenthood, I would imagine the subject doesn't come up much. Genetically, the elves are at a huge disadvantage to survive. I'm not sure if an elf and an 'elf blood' could produce elven children (being an elf would be recessive) but that would only help carry on the elven race a little . Since 'elf bloods' get their fair share of prejudice - which is probably why Fiona didn't want her baby to know she was an elf - it seems reasonable that they would be less likely to get involved with an elf.

I also like the way elves are portrayed in the game, with one exception - lack of romance options. No self-respecting Elf would get it on with a human which means Zevran is the ideal love interest.

Dwarves don't have any logical love interest and if they were planning to return to Orzammar then it makes Leliana or Zevran (Morrigan leaving no matter what and Alistair either King, dead, a wandering drunk, or rebuilding the Wardens) even less practical to come along, which is why my dwarves are always tragically single. Besides, half-dwarves face stigma too which is why they pass themselves off as short humans or tall dwarves.

[weyrleader]

Avissel wrote...

Madhaus wrote...
You want Legolas ? Just play Lord of the Rings ;-)

No see, he wants "Scary Dark Elves"

He wants to be Drizzit.

Oh my GOOOOOOD!!!!   I give up with the thread-scanners.......

[TheBlackBaron]

weyrleader wrote...
Hmm...OK....so just to make sure I am getting this correctly, are you suggesting that what is good for Ferelden is good for the rest of Thedas?  And that the adjoining lands that have yet to be explored by us need mirror the societal happenings in Ferelden and Orlais for the story to continue its richness? Assume that were to be true here, in real life: where we were all just one big collective whole, worldwide,  with a mirrored class structure.  How rich and diversified would our story be? 

To me, new lands mean new possibilities for the story to unfold.  I would just like to see what we have discussed as a possibility.

Except the lot of the elves in Ferelden and Orlais does mirror the rest of the world in many respects, due in part to the widespread adoption of Andrasteism and the Chantry's declaration of the bits of Chant of Light dealing with Andraste and the elves to be Dissonant Verses. There are only two places I can think of where this is not the case are the Qunari lands - wherin you simply replace Andrasteism with the Qun - and the remnants of the Tevinter Imperium, where slavery is still legal.

You have to remember, Thedas is just one continent, so the situation with the elves closely resembles the European tradition of anti-semitism and distrust of nomads such as the gypsies. Things may well be different in other parts of the world, but we won't be seeing those anytime soon - and I still fail to see what they would bring to the table other than player wish fufillment and a return to traditional heroic high fantasy elves that you can play any number of games and get.