204 réponses à ce sujet

[Terror_K]

Yes, but Shepard doesn't KNOW that EDI is good until later. Punishing Shepard for thinking a good "person" is bad and being cautious about a possibly danger when she has no idea is like giving Shepard Renegade points for helping a stranger who seemed good but turned out to be a murderer (such as the asari merc who lies to you during Samara's recruitment mission). And that's something BioWare said they wouldn't do. One should be treated according to their motivations and not the outcomes.

EDIT: Hostility towards The Illusive Man is also considered Paragon. Same with a few other bad guys moments (where Renegade is usually the option to help them instead).

Modifié par Terror_K, 31 mars 2010 - 01:13 .

[Tlazolteotl]

Morality points for rules of engagement ... worst idea since Greedo shot first.

[Zulu_DFA]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

Morality points for rules of engagement ... worst idea since Greedo shot first.

You're a renegade, aren't you? If you are not, listen to Commander Perfection! He knows the Paragon Drill!

[Xaijin]

Hostility towards The Illusive Man is also considered Paragon

Because it's rather obvious he's a douche from the intro.

[RyuGuitarFreak]

Badpie wrote...

Asheer_Khan wrote...

Sometimes is good to "use" others to do dirty work.
I am paragon myself but all my current runs ends whit full Paragon and about 25% renegade bar because i stopped playing boy scout and start more like Punisher.
And that's why i won't hesitate to grill that Krogan but i will never send "biotic god" against Waseea.
And whit those mercs during Miri's mission... why not let her have "little fun" too.

I'm the same way. My Shep is paragon, but with a little renegade thrown in.  He's compassionate and gentle with victims and those he feels he needs to protect.  He's blunt and a little gruff, but respectful of his friends and colleagues and he just has NO PATIENCE whatsoever for villains.  He'll rarely shoots first and never into someone's back (like the mechanic you can electrocute on Omega), but he won't hesitate to char that Krogan that was fanatical and wouldn't listen.   My Shep will kill people, but he'll never execute them, that sort of thing.

My Shep is quite the same. But I did electrocute the batarian. I found that funny  and at the time I didn't really think he died, maybe just passed out or fainted.
I kinda liked that sequence on Thane's mission with the eclipse merc when you have that renegade interrupt. I didn't do it, but after it, you can renegade talk the merc more by threatening him and pressing him through the glass making it break a little. I found that awesome, really bad ass, didn't throw the guy away and got the information.

Paragon with some renegade pointed to the bad guys is the way.

[Xaijin]

Usually when smoke comes out of your eyes and mouth it means you're dead.

Modifié par Xaijin, 31 mars 2010 - 01:21 .

[Rive Caedo]

Hostility towards The Illusive Man is also considered Paragon

The Renegade choices can often be pretty hostile too though! 

[Nightwriter]

Terror_K wrote...

Yes, but Shepard doesn't KNOW that EDI is good until later. Punishing Shepard for thinking a good "person" is bad and being cautious about a possibly danger when she has no idea is like giving Shepard Renegade points for helping a stranger who seemed good but turned out to be a murderer (such as the asari merc who lies to you during Samara's recruitment mission). And that's something BioWare said they wouldn't do. One should be treated according to their motivations and not the outcomes.

EDIT: Hostility towards The Illusive Man is also considered Paragon. Same with a few other bad guys moments (where Renegade is usually the option to help them instead).

I agree. I was jumpy enough waking up on a Cerberus ship in the middle of an attack, then realizing I have to work with the I-Man on HIS ship with HIS people and all kinds of listening devices. Strange people, strange places, weird enemies and traitors. Then all of the sudden -

"Hello, Commander."

"AHHH! What the freak was that?!"

"I am EDI, the ship's AI."

"What?! A freaking AI?! Kill it!!!"

It's not my fault I was jumpy. Knee-jerk. I'd just had to defeat a monster AI and a race of AI killing machines. I like EDI now, of course. After she told Joker not to feel bad about himself I was like, "aww."

Also: hostility in conversations can sometimes be paragon or renegade, but I've noticed ALL hostile interrupts seem to be renegade.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 31 mars 2010 - 01:27 .

[Zulu_DFA]

Xaijin wrote...

Hostility towards The Illusive Man is also considered Paragon

Because it's rather obvious he's a douche from the intro.

Strange enough, but as far as I noticed, hostility towards TIM & Cerberus happens to be renegade also. With the "upper" lines being sometimes the least confrontational. It starts with the dialogue whan Jacob reveals that he's working for Cerberus to you.

[sammcl]

I wouldn't say all renegade decisions are logical, sometimes they're just being confrontational and unreasonable for the sake of it. At the same time some paragon options are way too idealistic and naive, giving everyone the benefit of the doubt all the time just doesn't fly.

Edit: Heh, just re-read the OP, never said "all" renegade is logical. Anyway, it's prolly the pre-emptive strike and damage to property thing that makes the logical actions renegade.
For the Krogan example death by fire is prolly slightly more traumatic than being shot. Plus Mordin's friend is still being held in the base somewhere, what if shooting that pipe had caused a chain reaction and destroyed the entire base?
As for Miranda's mission, I agree that's totally logical, the merc tells you he'll kill you if you don't leave, you know Miranda's definately not gonna leave so you're gonna have to kill them anyway.
I've had to be careful on new games not to fall into the trap of making my decision based on knowing the outcome, even knowing that the merc in Thane's recruitment mission was the Volus' killer I let her go with my paragon, because i think he'd want to believe her story and let her go. My renegade just killed her, rationalising that "every Eclipse sister commits a murder to earn her uniform", better safe than sorry.

Modifié par sammcl, 31 mars 2010 - 02:17 .

[Tlazolteotl]

You're trying to save the galaxy, and stupid people get in your way.

I wouldn't say that's unreasonable for the sake of it, I'd say you just don't have time to waste talking to idiots.

[Baskervore]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

You're trying to save the galaxy, and stupid people get in your way.
I wouldn't say that's unreasonable for the sake of it, I'd say you just don't have time to waste talking to idiots.

I totally agree. Paragon is nice, but not very efficient.  Probably would lose ina realistic galaxy.

[Archereon]

Baskervore: No it wouldn't. Paragon Shepard wouldn't get court martialed in real life.

[Cascadus]

Saberwolf116 wrote...
For example: When you're on Mordin's loyalty mission, you're given an opportunity to blow up the fuel tank below a Krogan who's monologuing. To me, this doesn't seem renegade; it seems like the logical decision. After all, you end up killing him and his guards anyway, so why not save some time and bullets?

That's actually the funny thing, if you wait out his extended, crazed rant to blow it up, it doesn't give you Renegade points. It gives you Paragon points. The dude is just that much a douche.

[Tlazolteotl]

On the flipside, when mordin first gets on the Normandy, if you wait out both of the paragon interrupts, you can actually get renegade points.

When you don't actually get paragon points for interrupting.

[Xaijin]

Most of the renegade interrupts and folow through options have rather more to do with direct action and instant results or personal fulfillment; ala TIM doesn't tell RenShep what to do, and he also doesn't get to steal RenShep's ego points.

[Nightwriter]

[quote]sammcl wrote...

For the Krogan example death by fire is prolly slightly more traumatic than being shot. Plus Mordin's friend is still being held in the base somewhere, what if shooting that pipe had caused a chain reaction and destroyed the entire base?

[/quote]

This honestly never occurred to me. Lol.

As for the trauma of death by fire, I was very curious when the krogan started screaming so loudly because I'd heard krogan don't feel pain the same way humans do, and that was why I shot the tank.

[/quote]

[Cascadus]

They feel pain, it just doesn't affect their concentration.

[sammcl]

Tlazolteotl wrote...

You're trying to save the galaxy, and stupid people get in your way.
I wouldn't say that's unreasonable for the sake of it, I'd say you just don't have time to waste talking to idiots.

It's not exactly public knowledge that you're alive or on a suicide mission, how is anyone else supposed to know what you're doing? I agree killing villains without asking questions is fine but renegades are even hostile towards civilians and people you're asking for help. Hostility towards bureaucrats that continually fail to see reason i understand (Udina, Anoleis, the council), hostility towards Conrad Verner and the reporter i definately understand.

But there are loads of civilians you'll chat with where the renegade option just feels so unreasonable, the major one i can think of is telling Harrot to shut down Kenn's Salvage, why do that? you don't want to help Kenn out, fine but don't go out of your way to make his life worse than it already is. I've never selected that option so maybe it turns out it's some reverse psychology that ends up helping Kenn, but there's no way you're gonna know that until you select it. There's also accusing the synthetic insights rep of racism for not buying a slave, or accusing the citadel souvernirs merchant of discrimination against the poor.

Edit:fixed paragraph spacing, apparently single space in quick post leaves a line, but in normal post it doesn't : /

Modifié par sammcl, 31 mars 2010 - 02:43 .

[Tlazolteotl]

And don't they go berserk when their backup nervous systems kick in?

[Nostradamoose]

Well eh! 'tis fun to shoot that gas tank!

Modifié par Nostradamoose, 31 mars 2010 - 02:42 .

[Tlazolteotl]

sammcl wrote...

Tlazolteotl wrote...

You're trying to save the galaxy, and stupid people get in your way.
I wouldn't say that's unreasonable for the sake of it, I'd say you just don't have time to waste talking to idiots.

It's not exactly public knowledge that you're alive or on a suicide mission, how is anyone else supposed to know what you're doing? I agree killing villains without asking questions is fine but renegades are even hostile towards civilians and people you're asking for help. Hostility towards bureaucrats that continually fail to see reason i understand (Udina, Anoleis, the council), hostility towards Conrad Verner and the reporter i definately understand.
But there are loads of civilians you'll chat with where the renegade option just feels so unreasonable, the major one i can think of is telling Harrot to shut down Kenn's Salvage, why do that? you don't want to help Kenn out, fine but don't go out of your way to make his life worse than it already is. I've never selected that option so maybe it turns out it's some reverse psychology that ends up helping Kenn, but there's no way you're gonna know that until you select it. There's also accusing the synthetic insights rep of racism for not buying a slave, or accusing the citadel souvernirs merchant of discrimination against the poor.

Nah, Kenn just disappears.
I don't do that one either, 'cos it's dumb. I just wanted to see what would happen one day.

[Nightwriter]

sammcl wrote...

I've had to be careful on new games not to fall into the trap of making my decision based on knowing the outcome, even knowing that the merc in Thane's recruitment mission was the Volus' killer I let her go with my paragon, because i think he'd want to believe her story and let her go. My renegade just killed her, rationalising that "every Eclipse sister commits a murder to earn her uniform", better safe than sorry.

I think this is a trap all of us fall into at one point or another. And I thought it was Samara's recruitment mission?

Anyway, I thought this was a unique time when being paragon actually proved to turn out badly, something that doesn't happen very often. I honestly let her go - the second time.

The first time, my paragon saw her go for her gun and I shot her out of pure instinct, before even hearing her story.

I suppose this might be one way to justify this particular renegade interrupt, then, because she was drawing on you. If you apply your reasoning above, and try to play like you don't know the outcome, this might be a justification. But second time, I heard her story and let her go. I paid for this later.

Modifié par Nightwriter, 31 mars 2010 - 02:50 .

[implodinggoat]

A lot of the Renegade interrupts are just taking advantage of the battleground in a clever way (blowing up the Krogan on Mordin's mission or taking out a ton of mercs on Miranda's loyalty mission) and I generally use them even as a Paragon.



I also find the Renegade solution to Legion's loyalty quest to be the more logical option since Legion really hasn't demonstrated that the non heretic Geth are trustworthy enough to be given the keys to an army of 3 million soldiers (and since I find rewriting the mind of a sentient being to be unethical).



Aside from that I take any renegade option that lets me tell off the Illusive man, although the game never gave me the option to tell him what I really think of Cerberus (it ideally would have involved the use of a combat knife to carve a few choice phrases like "Akuze" and "Kahoku" into the Illusive Man's skull).



For the most part though I find playing a renegade in ME2 far less tolerable than I did in ME1. In ME1, Renegade Shepard is a ruthless, antiauthoritarian, smartass; but in ME2 he's the Illusive Man's ****. Ironically the most antiauthoritarian act you can commit in ME2 is to blow up the Collector base and tell the Illusive Man to ****** off.

[sammcl]

Ah right Samara, I always end up doing Thane, Samara and Miranda missions together, all 3 involve eclipse so i mix them up. It was a nice surprise that the paragon choice had a bad outcome, we might see more of that in ME3 with the rewriting of the heretics. If i had to guess I'd say the Geth end up helping you fight the reapers but they are machines, maybe the reapers will give them a virus and use them against us. Destruction of the collector base is another contender for a bad outcome, I wouldn't trust the Illusive Man to use it, but his logic of using the reapers' own tech against them or at least studying it to find weaknesses is sound.