204 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

tjzsf wrote...

Not quite - renegades believe they did the thing that had to be done, which isn't necessarily the right thing to do. Mordin is an example of this - given the situation, the best thing that could be done was to create genophage 2.0, but it still eats at him enough for him to run thta clinic on Omega. Paragons get the fallback of "IT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO" and derive direct justification from it, Renegades don't get a moral satisfaction - they get to rationalize their choices. Again, look to Mordin - he calls his favorite nephew because nevvy is a tangible being while galaxy is hard to actualize, and hearing from the nephew is far more rewarding than knowing galaxy has been saved. That, too, is part of BDtS - Balak got away, but you get to personally hear from the people you saved.

Semantics again. If it 'had to be done,' how is it not 'the right thing?' If renegades don't believe in what they are doing, why are they doing it?

The arguements against the genophage are, to me, an example of morality used out of context. They are a bit difficult to discuss though since they involve birth control, which is a very controvertial topic for some. If you have uncontrollable population growth, you will always have strife. There simply aren't the resources to sustain it. Instead of deaths to the genophage you have deaths due to war and/or starvation, and war burns through a lot of non-renewable resources in addition to the lives lost.

The renegades in that situation are actually the ones taking the rational approach. Lives are lost either way, to the genophage or to overpopulation. Of the two, the genophage is the lesser evil.

In the case of BDtS, the choice is a little less clear. Balak has lost either way, so the primary mission is a success either way. The biggest thing that bothers me about that situation is that Balak is able to just magically disappear off the base. It would have taken time for him to get to a shuttle and take off, and even if Shep wasn't done with the rescue in time to stop him personally, there should have been an option to have the Normandy intervene.

Regardless though, paragons feel good about rescuing the hostages and renegades feel good about stopping Balak permanently. Renegades don't know they missed a thank you from the hostages and paragons don't know that Balak isn't plotting a round 2. Both feel they did 'the right thing.'

[tjzsf]

Right isn't always had to be done. This is why there is a debate about it in the first place. Renegades know they're missing a thank you because the hostages that could have given them one are now dead. Paragons, on the other hand, know that by letting Balak go, they send the message that taking hostages is a viable escape/survival plan for the prospective terrorist.

Something being rationally a lesser evil still makes it evil.

[Moiaussi]

tjzsf wrote...

Right isn't always had to be done. This is why there is a debate about it in the first place. Renegades know they're missing a thank you because the hostages that could have given them one are now dead. Paragons, on the other hand, know that by letting Balak go, they send the message that taking hostages is a viable escape/survival plan for the prospective terrorist.

Something being rationally a lesser evil still makes it evil.

Renegades don't do what literally has to be done either. There is obviously a choice or there wouldn't be a paragon vs renegade decision. Both are doing what they consider right. You are utterly ignoring the fact that views on morality are subjective and essentially saying that all renegades share your moral views, despite (if I remember right) you having said in other posts that you personally have a paragon view.

If something is the lesser evil then the other choice is the greater evil. The lesser evil is more 'good' than a choice which is more evil. -1 is a larger number than -12, even though they are both negative numbers. If you have 5000 in the bank and pay a bill for $200, you have more in the bank after the fact than if you had to pay $500 if you had gone somewhere else. Its a simple concept.

And no, renegades don't assume that hostages would have sent them a thank you. They certainly don't expect any of Balak's would be future victims to send them thank you's since they would have no way of knowing they have been saved. The families of those victims probably won't sent paragon Shepard hate mail either since they are unlikely to know about the earlier incident, and may not even know Balak was involved. If he had been successful, all witnesses would have been dead.

[TheRevanchist]

Spectre_907 wrote...

Misnomer wrote...

In the final recorded decision in ME1 Shepard must decide to:

(Renegade/Neutral)Sacrifice the council and concentrate all forces on Soverign in a rage against time to stop it from opening the relay and wiping out all organic life.

(Paragon)Risking all organic life in a race against time to save the council for. . . what exactly? What is worth that risk?

What sane person would pick paragon here, without prior knowledge that you succeed wither way? And no I'm not ripping on paragon; Just this choice bothers me :/

Three lives just isn't worth it with a time table that is unknown.

Three? Theres ten thousand crew memebers on the Destiny Ascention... not includeing the Council...you lose alot more lives leaveing it to die then you do saving it.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

You don't know that when making the decision kylecouch. Outside of the Council, you're risking the lives of an unknown quantity for an unknown quantity.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 16 juin 2011 - 05:06 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

You don't know that when making the decision kylecouch. Outside of the Council, you're risking the lives of an unknown quantity for an unknown quantity.

It is safe to predict that the DA had a crew of more than 3 though.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Right... but they weren't the reason you'd risk the lives of the galaxy's only hope to save the DA.... which also has more than 3 people in each cruiser.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 16 juin 2011 - 06:07 .

[Rawke]

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

You don't know that when making the decision kylecouch. Outside of the Council, you're risking the lives of an unknown quantity for an unknown quantity.

It is safe to predict that the DA had a crew of more than 3 though.

A crew of over 10.000 to be precise. Shepard mentions it to that annoying journalist.

Sure, you couldn't know the outcome of any decision at that point. But that's just the burden of being in command. You have to make a decision. For some people it may seem logical to save a huge dreadnought even though it means losing a few cruisers.

Modifié par Rawke, 16 juin 2011 - 06:46 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Rawke wrote...

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

You don't know that when making the decision kylecouch. Outside of the Council, you're risking the lives of an unknown quantity for an unknown quantity.

It is safe to predict that the DA had a crew of more than 3 though.

A crew of over 10.000 to be precise. Shepard mentions it to that annoying journalist.

Sure, you couldn't know the outcome of any decision at that point. But that's just the burden of being in command. You have to make a decision. For some people it may seem logical to save a huge dreadnought even though it means losing a few cruisers.

A huge, out-of-commission dreadnaught.  But yeah, I never doubted that people made the choice for a reason.  Ultimately it comes down to (like in ME2) how much of a threat the Reapers are percieved as being (by the player) and how much time they feel they have to "win."

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 16 juin 2011 - 08:06 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Right... but they weren't the reason you'd risk the lives of the galaxy's only hope to save the DA.... which also has more than 3 people in each cruiser.

Right there you reveal your real bias. "Galaxy's only hope?" You don't know in advance how many will be lost saving the DA. You don't know in advance how many of the DA's crew will be saved. Stop pretending like you know both. You don't even know after the fact how many of those Alliance ships were lost anyway from Geth ships that no longer had the DA to shoot at.

As it turned out those ships were completely irrelevant either way to stopping Sovereign. Sometimes a judgement call is a judgement call and not a sure thing in either direction..... unless you are metagaming of course, but even then we don't know the full results.

You like to take what we do know out of context and pretend that we know everything, but even after the fact we know a lot less than you seem to think.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

The galaxy's only hope was the Alliance at that moment, you don't think the other forces would've rescued the DA if they could?

The only group that can save the DA and stop Sovereign at that point was the Alliance. That's not out of context... at that specific point in time, they were the Galaxy's only hope.

And for the record, the DA was in just one sector out of 360 degrees worth of sectors orbiting the station that were in the heat of battle.  All the Geth forces weren't just hanging around the Ascension.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 16 juin 2011 - 11:16 .

[Spectre_907]

kylecouch wrote...

Three? Theres ten thousand crew memebers on the Destiny Ascention... not includeing the Council...you lose alot more lives leaveing it to die then you do saving it.

The dialogue of the squadmates and Shepard say otherwise nor do I care how many are on board. Ten thousand lives is an acceptable number of casualties compared to trillions when faced with an unknown timetable.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 17 juin 2011 - 01:58 .

[Moiaussi]

Spectre_907 wrote...

The dialogue of the squadmates and Shepard say otherwise nor do I care how many are on board. Ten thousand lives is an acceptable number of casualties compared to trillions when faced with an unknown timetable.

And yet the decision isn't save the DA vs concentrate on Sovereign. It is Save the DA vs hold back and concentrate on Sovereign later. There is no immediate ability to hit Sovereign, so the real question is which option gives the better odds when you will be able to do so, as well as which gives the better odds if something goes wrong and the reapers arrive anyway (now via the citadel or later via however, which turns out to be the case in ME3).

Saving the DA now means eliminating Geth ships that will otherwise be free later to shoot you as you are concentrating on Sovereign, as well as hedging your bets against the Reapers showing up anyway (by way of not having to deal with a leadership transition in the middle of an invasion). That is weighed against the risk that you might need everything shooting Sovereign ASAP to win, as well as the risk of the other races not being as quick to rally and/or mobilize or worse that being less suspecting they might be more infiltrated via indoctrination.

The squadmate opinions are close to irrelevant since noone involved in the decision knows what the battlefield looks like or even what any of the fleets have to work with. The squadmates are likely groundlings too.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

To state again... there is no immediate ability to save the Council either. Shepard's at the controls, they wait on him regardless.  So they either wait for him to open up the relays or they wait on him to open up the arms. 

And for the record, in the actual game, two of your choices are to either "Save the Council" (which is the Destiny Ascension in this case) or "Concentrate on Sovereign."

Ultimately, Paragons know that saving the Council is the right thing to do (because trying to save any life is the right thing to do) and they don't care what gets in the way of them doing that "right" thing. There is no compromise or sacrificing of this for a Paragon player... even if the fate of the galaxy hangs in the balance... because they believe they'll find a way... despite it all (and they have).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 17 juin 2011 - 03:45 .

[Spectre_907]

Moiaussi wrote...

And yet the decision isn't save the DA vs concentrate on Sovereign. It is Save the DA vs hold back and concentrate on Sovereign later. There is no immediate ability to hit Sovereign

Not with a limited time frame I know nothing about. Then it is an immediate matter. The fact that I am on a limited timetable that I know nothing about is all the justification I need to hold them back. All other factors are either too presumptuous or too ambiguous for me to deviate and save the DA and risk loosing reinforcements over it.

The squadmate opinions are close to irrelevant since noone involved in the decision knows what the battlefield

No but that wasn't why I brought it up. The squadmates say the "sacrifice human lives to save the Council." As do the DA's commanding officer and Joker. The choice is to save the Council at the expense of anything else. I do not know how many other lives there are but this is irrelevant. Three known lives compared to trillions. This is a small price to pay.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 17 juin 2011 - 04:17 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

To state again... there is no immediate ability to save the Council either. Shepard's at the controls, they wait on him regardless.  So they either wait for him to open up the relays or they wait on him to open up the arms. 

And for the record, in the actual game, two of your choices are to either "Save the Council" (which is the Destiny Ascension in this case) or "Concentrate on Sovereign."

Ultimately, Paragons know that saving the Council is the right thing to do (because trying to save any life is the right thing to do) and they don't care what gets in the way of them doing that "right" thing. There is no compromise or sacrificing of this for a Paragon player... even if the fate of the galaxy hangs in the balance... because they believe they'll find a way... despite it all (and they have).

The question from Joker is 'Come in now to save the Ascension or hold back.' That is the question Shepard is answering. You also omitted 'let the Council die', which is the actual renegade choice. 'Concentrate on Sovereign' is the neutral choice.

And if 'saving any life' is the right thing to do, what about the lives it would cost to save those lives? Based on your logic, paragons shouldn't be behind weapons at all, but they are. Sovereign is also a life form. Saren is certainly alive. The Geth are alive, at least to paragons. Letting Balak go is because of the hostages, not because of Balak's life. Obviously there are compromises or sacrifices. The better explaination is that they value life higher and thus are more willing to take extra risks.

[Moiaussi]

Spectre_907 wrote...

Not with a limited time frame I know nothing about. Then it is an immediate matter. The fact that I am on a limited timetable that I know nothing about is all the justification I need to hold them back. All other factors are either too presumptuous or too ambiguous for me to deviate and save the DA and risk loosing reinforcements over it.

Per Joker the question is 'save the council or hold back?' Saying you don't know the time frame doesn't mean that there isn't a time frame.

No but that wasn't why I brought it up. The squadmates say the "sacrifice human lives to save the Council." As do the DA's commanding officer and Joker. The choice is to save the Council at the expense of anything else. I do not know how many other lives there are but this is irrelevant. Three known lives compared to trillions. This is a small price to pay.

The fact it was presented that way doesn't make the other lives involved somehow magicly vanish, nor does it change the actual tactical situation. Again, what do you think the Geth ships blowing up the already dead-in-space DA are going to do soon as it is destroyed? Call it a day and go out for a nice oil change? You are picking one stat out of context (the Council being only 3 people) and shurking responsibility for considering everything else simply because some groundlings advise you to hold back. Joker doesn't say anything about expected losses.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

To state again... there is no immediate ability to save the Council either. Shepard's at the controls, they wait on him regardless.  So they either wait for him to open up the relays or they wait on him to open up the arms. 

And for the record, in the actual game, two of your choices are to either "Save the Council" (which is the Destiny Ascension in this case) or "Concentrate on Sovereign."

Ultimately, Paragons know that saving the Council is the right thing to do (because trying to save any life is the right thing to do) and they don't care what gets in the way of them doing that "right" thing. There is no compromise or sacrificing of this for a Paragon player... even if the fate of the galaxy hangs in the balance... because they believe they'll find a way... despite it all (and they have).

The question from Joker is 'Come in now to save the Ascension or hold back.' That is the question Shepard is answering. You also omitted 'let the Council die', which is the actual renegade choice. 'Concentrate on Sovereign' is the neutral choice.

And if 'saving any life' is the right thing to do, what about the lives it would cost to save those lives? Based on your logic, paragons shouldn't be behind weapons at all, but they are. Sovereign is also a life form. Saren is certainly alive. The Geth are alive, at least to paragons. Letting Balak go is because of the hostages, not because of Balak's life. Obviously there are compromises or sacrifices. The better explaination is that they value life higher and thus are more willing to take extra risks.

Naturally you'd have to 'hold back' if you do not send your forces in to save the Ascension.  To save the Ascension, they'd have to move forward and do it... 'Concentrate on Sovereign' still gives you Renegade points and doesn't detract from the issue of Paragon choices being the "Best outcome" button

Regarding the 'saving any life' bit, those lives aren't in danger at the time... just the DA.  No one else is asking for help at the time, just the DA.  If they were both asking for help... then I'd love to see what a Paragon would do.  But when it's just one party asking to be saved, that makes it easy.

[Spectre_907]

Moiaussi wrote...

Per Joker the question is 'save the council or hold back?' Saying you don't know the time frame doesn't mean that there isn't a time frame.

Hold back so the Citadel arms can open and then go in. We're not holding back and just sitting there. I said that because I don't know the time frame, I think it is better to concentrate on Sovereign. To clarify on this: Vigil states that the datafile will give us temporary control over the station. So once we upload it to the master control unit, we're on a time table. But we don't know anything more other than that. How much time do we have? How long will the Fifth Fleet take taking out the remaining geth ships with minimal casualties? Where are those geth ships? How long does it take the Citadel arms to open up and can we even do both with minimal casualties? These things are just beyond the scope of what we know. So it makes sense to just forego trying to save the Council and concentrate on Sovereign.

The fact it was presented that way doesn't make the other lives involved somehow magicly vanish, nor does it change the actual tactical situation. Again, what do you think the Geth ships blowing up the already dead-in-space DA are going to do soon as it is destroyed? Call it a day and go out for a nice oil change? You are picking one stat out of context (the Council being only 3 people) and shurking responsibility for considering everything else simply because some groundlings advise you to hold back. Joker doesn't say anything about expected losses.

All other lives (the Council included) I might be saving by saving the DA are irrelevant compared to number I will save by destroying Sovereign. The three lives are just what I know for certain I am saving. It is simply a matter of lives being sacrificed so that more lives can live. It doesn't matter if it is three or ten thousand. The galaxy has much more than this.

And no, it does not change the tactical situation but we know nothing about it. Those geth ships out there could be fighting other Citadel ships. The DA could just be adrift in space. The bulk of the geth fleet could have been destroyed and the remaining geth shipsurrounding the DA are just stragglers. The geth could have wiped out the Citadel fleet. Either of these explanations (and others) could be the case.

You're giving a possible tactical scenario and arguing that we should save the Council because of it. Now this is fine and I would agree with saving the Council provided Sovereign could not regain control of the Citadel with anything other than someone killing Shepard and physically transferring control over. Vigil tells us the exact opposite of this.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 17 juin 2011 - 06:11 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Spectre_907 wrote...

 To clarify on this: Vigil states that the datafile will give us temporary control over the station. So once we upload it to the master control unit, we're on a time table. But we don't know anything more other than that. How much time do we have? How long will the Fifth Fleet take taking out the remaining geth ships with minimal casualties? Where are those geth ships? How long does it take the Citadel arms to open up and can we even do both with minimal casualties? These things are just beyond the scope of what we know. So it makes sense to just forego trying to save the Council and concentrate on Sovereign.

//snip snip//

You're giving a possible tactical scenario and arguing that we should save the Council because of it. Now this is fine and I would agree with saving the Council provided Sovereign could not regain control of the Citadel with anything other than someone killing Shepard and physically transferring control over. Vigil tells us the exact opposite of this.

//nods

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Naturally you'd have to 'hold back' if you do not send your forces in to save the Ascension.  To save the Ascension, they'd have to move forward and do it... 'Concentrate on Sovereign' still gives you Renegade points and doesn't detract from the issue of Paragon choices being the "Best outcome" button

Regarding the 'saving any life' bit, those lives aren't in danger at the time... just the DA.  No one else is asking for help at the time, just the DA.  If they were both asking for help... then I'd love to see what a Paragon would do.  But when it's just one party asking to be saved, that makes it easy.

Spectre_907 wrote...

Hold back so the Citadel arms can open and then go in. We're not holding back and just sitting there. I said that because I don't know the time frame, I think it is better to concentrate on Sovereign. To clarify on this: Vigil states that the datafile will give us temporary control over the station. So once we upload it to the master control unit, we're on a time table. But we don't know anything more other than that. How much time do we have? How long will the Fifth Fleet take taking out the remaining geth ships with minimal casualties? Where are those geth ships? How long does it take the Citadel arms to open up and can we even do both with minimal casualties? These things are just beyond the scope of what we know. So it makes sense to just forego trying to save the Council and concentrate on Sovereign.

None of that changes the fact that there is a delay before the arms can open and that you are gambling on them opening sooner rather than later. While you are waiting, you are missing an opportunity to outflank the Geth fleet, to come in on their six.  There is more there than simply the Council or crew of the DA.

Even if the arms open quickly, you are still going to end up with Geth on your six as soon as they are done with the DA. You can concentrate fire on them immediately while you can, or split some lesser amount of firepower off to take care of them while you are firing on Sovereign, or you can ignore them and hope that you can take Sovereign down before they take out too many of your ships. Just as the time to deal with the Geth fleet is academic if Sovereign finishes sooner, the time it takes to deal with Sovereign is academic if the Geth you are ignoring take out so many of your ships that you no longer have enough firepower.

These are all judgement calls. Stop pretending you know the answers in advance or that estimating wrong means that reality is wrong instead of your estimates.

All other lives (the Council included) I might be saving by saving the DA are irrelevant compared to number I will save by destroying Sovereign. The three lives are just what I know for certain I am saving. It is simply a matter of lives being sacrificed so that more lives can live. It doesn't matter if it is three or ten thousand. The galaxy has much more than this.

And no, it does not change the tactical situation but we know nothing about it. Those geth ships out there could be fighting other Citadel ships. The DA could just be adrift in space. The bulk of the geth fleet could have been destroyed and the remaining geth shipsurrounding the DA are just stragglers. The geth could have wiped out the Citadel fleet. Either of these explanations (and others) could be the case.

You're giving a possible tactical scenario and arguing that we should save the Council because of it. Now this is fine and I would agree with saving the Council provided Sovereign could not regain control of the Citadel with anything other than someone killing Shepard and physically transferring control over. Vigil tells us the exact opposite of this.

Again with the misquotes. Per Vigil "Once inside he can transfer control to Sovereign." It is not clear that had fully happened. They had the relays shut down, but that might have just been a side effect of activting manual override.  Also Vigil's program would 'corrupt the security protocols and give you temporary control of the station. It might give you a fighting chance against Sovereign.' They didn't know how that would work exactly. It isn't like they had any friendly reapers to help them test it.

Again, if Sovereign counters it too quickly, then Sovereign wins, but if in ignoring the Geth, the fleet loses firepower too quickly, Sovereign still wins. It is a judgement call .

[Moiaussi]

And you still haven't explained why Sovereign felt it neccessary to reanimate Saren, if it could have overridden Vigil's software without the humanoid body, especially since destroying mecha-Saren seemed to have such a devestating effect on Sovereign's main body.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

To restate an additional time... the battle with the Geth is taking place 360 degrees around the Citadel, not just where the DA is. You also do not come on their 6, those missles are wiping out the alliance ships directly... they charged in headlong and seemed to have lost a number of ships before they could even fire their first salvo (which is all irrelevant to the choice at hand). Secondly, how long either effort takes is irrlevant to the choice (which is what's being contested... being redundant so you hopefully get this point). Third, that results wrap around Paragon decisions is no excuse. There's no getting around the fact that the Paragon choice simply felt that they had "enough time," was "unaware of a time limit," or simply "wanted to save the DA... regardless of what Sovereign may do in the meantime..." all of which gambles the future of the galaxy by intentionally leaving Sovereign alone while you save the DA.  Had Sovereign regained control while the DA was being saved, the station's arms could've easily stayed closed (locking out the fleet and preventing Sovereign from being stopped at all).

For your second post... that's even easier. It's because of Shepard that Vigil's data file was uploaded and control of the Citadel was taken from Sovereign temporarily... It's in Sovereign's best interest to ensure Shepard is dead and can no longer do something like that again. Additionally, Sovereign is a very prideful sentient... so it's not out of the question that Sovereign also attacked Shepard for prideful/judgement/punishment reasons (given his actions to both Saren and the Citadel).

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 17 juin 2011 - 08:03 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

To restate an additional time... the battle with the Geth is taking place 360 degrees around the Citadel, not just where the DA is. You also do not come on their 6, those missles are wiping out the alliance ships directly... they charged in headlong and seemed to have lost a number of ships before they could even fire their first salvo (which is all irrelevant to the choice at hand). Secondly, how long either effort takes is irrlevant to the choice (which is what's being contested... being redundant so you hopefully get this point). Third, that results wrap around Paragon decisions is no excuse. There's no getting around the fact that the Paragon choice simply felt that they had "enough time," was "unaware of a time limit," or simply "wanted to save the DA... regardless of what Sovereign may do in the meantime..." all of which gambles the future of the galaxy by intentionally leaving Sovereign alone while you save the DA.  Had Sovereign regained control while the DA was being saved, the station's arms could've easily stayed closed (locking out the fleet and preventing Sovereign from being stopped at all).

For your second post... that's even easier. It's because of Shepard that Vigil's data file was uploaded and control of the Citadel was taken from Sovereign temporarily... It's in Sovereign's best interest to ensure Shepard is dead and can no longer do something like that again. Additionally, Sovereign is a very prideful sentient... so it's not out of the question that Sovereign also attacked Shepard for prideful/judgement/punishment reasons (given his actions to both Saren and the Citadel).

If they are firing at the DA they are not lined up on the Alliance vessels. If they ignore the Alliance vessels as they approach the citadel, they would ignore them as they approach the ships concentrating on the DA. Getting into a defensive position isn't automatic, especially with a nebula limiting maneuver. We see next to nothing of the fight, certainly not any sort of play by play. Not enough to judge anything. We don't even see the entire battlefield.

And once the ships do come through the relay THE ARMS ARE STILL CLOSED. So they would still be holding off. 
The number of times you say that you should assume they would have opened sooner doesn't change the fact that they didn't and that you now have more Geth to face because they are no longer firing on the DA by the time you get your opening volley on Sovereign.

So you are saying that Sovereign tossed out his entire plan just out of pride? Even though if he had broken the Prothean hack he would have had plenty of revenge? If the Reapers are that idiotic, we should have no trouble at all defeating them. I am not betting on that level of idiocy.

Look, we really are going around in circles here. You can't seem to accept the concept that judgement calls are judgement calls and that reality doesn't have any obligation to ensure your premises are correct.