204 réponses à ce sujet

[TheRevanchist]

Moiaussi wrote...

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

To restate an additional time... the battle with the Geth is taking place 360 degrees around the Citadel, not just where the DA is. You also do not come on their 6, those missles are wiping out the alliance ships directly... they charged in headlong and seemed to have lost a number of ships before they could even fire their first salvo (which is all irrelevant to the choice at hand). Secondly, how long either effort takes is irrlevant to the choice (which is what's being contested... being redundant so you hopefully get this point). Third, that results wrap around Paragon decisions is no excuse. There's no getting around the fact that the Paragon choice simply felt that they had "enough time," was "unaware of a time limit," or simply "wanted to save the DA... regardless of what Sovereign may do in the meantime..." all of which gambles the future of the galaxy by intentionally leaving Sovereign alone while you save the DA.  Had Sovereign regained control while the DA was being saved, the station's arms could've easily stayed closed (locking out the fleet and preventing Sovereign from being stopped at all).

For your second post... that's even easier. It's because of Shepard that Vigil's data file was uploaded and control of the Citadel was taken from Sovereign temporarily... It's in Sovereign's best interest to ensure Shepard is dead and can no longer do something like that again. Additionally, Sovereign is a very prideful sentient... so it's not out of the question that Sovereign also attacked Shepard for prideful/judgement/punishment reasons (given his actions to both Saren and the Citadel).

If they are firing at the DA they are not lined up on the Alliance vessels. If they ignore the Alliance vessels as they approach the citadel, they would ignore them as they approach the ships concentrating on the DA. Getting into a defensive position isn't automatic, especially with a nebula limiting maneuver. We see next to nothing of the fight, certainly not any sort of play by play. Not enough to judge anything. We don't even see the entire battlefield.

And once the ships do come through the relay THE ARMS ARE STILL CLOSED. So they would still be holding off. 
The number of times you say that you should assume they would have opened sooner doesn't change the fact that they didn't and that you now have more Geth to face because they are no longer firing on the DA by the time you get your opening volley on Sovereign.

So you are saying that Sovereign tossed out his entire plan just out of pride? Even though if he had broken the Prothean hack he would have had plenty of revenge? If the Reapers are that idiotic, we should have no trouble at all defeating them. I am not betting on that level of idiocy.

Look, we really are going around in circles here. You can't seem to accept the concept that judgement calls are judgement calls and that reality doesn't have any obligation to ensure your premises are correct.

lol nice so see you again Moiaussi...i can't help but smack my gob at this arrgument. if you ignore the DA the Aliience just sits in a holding pattern waiting for the arms to open, while they sit there waiting the DA is going supernova. You don't save ANY amount of time by ignoreing the Destiny Ascention....all you do is lose out on a possiblely huge military assest later once the Reaper's actually arrive. Then like Moiaussi said....you end up with sigificantly more Geth to contend with since the DA is gone. Now the Allience is outnumbered far more then it would have been...thus meaning you have even LESS time then you WOULD have had if you removed those geth warships in the first place because they will be fireing at the fresh Allience fleet since the the dreadnaught is gone. Most people think Paragons are just "wishful thinkers" yet we put alot more thought into out actions then you obviously think we do if you think were so narrow minded all we think is "save as many as possible". I thought long and short term when making that decsion, the short term being what myself and Moi have said already...and in Moi's case several times. The long term being all the possible benifits the Destiny Ascention would bring in the future verses all the possible benefits of it's absence. Chooseing to conentrait on Nezzara does not grant the Allience more time to deal with him. it in fact grants less. Renegade is no more "logical" then Paragon is...I'm personally tierd of these arguments. having both a pure Ren and pure Para character I can say this with confidence.

[TheRevanchist]

Saphra Deden wrote...

Rawke wrote...

Sure, you couldn't know the outcome of any decision at that point. But that's just the burden of being in command. You have to make a decision. For some people it may seem logical to save a huge dreadnought even though it means losing a few cruisers.

If you save the dreadnought you may save nothing. That's not logical.

The same could be said if you don't save the Dreadnaught... there is no way of knowing the fleet will win eaither way, and Moiaussi has already made it quite clear what would normally happen in a situation where the DA is not saved (that is if Bioware actually thought about these things as much as the fans do.)

[ISpeakTheTruth]

I've always seen the DS decision as a military strategy. If you let the DS fall and you go straight for Soverign then yes you get there faster and with larger numbers but by just leaving the DS you also leave the Geth alive too meaning once they're done with the dreadnaught they'll head for our ships and they'll be attacking us from behind meaning we'd then have to fight a space battle on two fronts wich is horrible.

Its better to have a smaller fleet and a better fighting position than a larger fleet and have to fight on two fronts.

[Moiaussi]

kylecouch wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Rawke wrote...

Sure, you couldn't know the outcome of any decision at that point. But that's just the burden of being in command. You have to make a decision. For some people it may seem logical to save a huge dreadnought even though it means losing a few cruisers.

If you save the dreadnought you may save nothing. That's not logical.

The same could be said if you don't save the Dreadnaught... there is no way of knowing the fleet will win eaither way, and Moiaussi has already made it quite clear what would normally happen in a situation where the DA is not saved (that is if Bioware actually thought about these things as much as the fans do.)

Exactly. There is a tendancy to assume that the Geth ships attacking the DA simply vanush or otherwise ignore the Alliance fleet if you go don't save the DA, but the reality is, those ships are still there and if they are enough to take out 8 Alliance ships with the entire Arcturus fleet engaging them and with them still distracted by the desire to destroy the DA it follows that they should do even more damage if the Alliance are concentrating on Sovereign and the DA is already destroyed.

That said, if the political ramifications are such that the Alliance ends up with a bigger fleet with a weaker replacement Council and the Turians have the political will to build and deploy ships faster than the Asari even if they have to commission Asari shipyards to supplement their own, the galaxy might be better prepared to face the Reapers in the long run by the Alliance fleet holding back.

I feel like I am channelling Mordin here... complex situations, not a simple or obvious problem, many variables. Sometimes have to go with what seems right at the time.

[TheRevanchist]

Moiaussi wrote...

kylecouch wrote...

Saphra Deden wrote...

Rawke wrote...

Sure, you couldn't know the outcome of any decision at that point. But that's just the burden of being in command. You have to make a decision. For some people it may seem logical to save a huge dreadnought even though it means losing a few cruisers.

If you save the dreadnought you may save nothing. That's not logical.

The same could be said if you don't save the Dreadnaught... there is no way of knowing the fleet will win eaither way, and Moiaussi has already made it quite clear what would normally happen in a situation where the DA is not saved (that is if Bioware actually thought about these things as much as the fans do.)

Exactly. There is a tendancy to assume that the Geth ships attacking the DA simply vanush or otherwise ignore the Alliance fleet if you go don't save the DA, but the reality is, those ships are still there and if they are enough to take out 8 Alliance ships with the entire Arcturus fleet engaging them and with them still distracted by the desire to destroy the DA it follows that they should do even more damage if the Alliance are concentrating on Sovereign and the DA is already destroyed.

That said, if the political ramifications are such that the Alliance ends up with a bigger fleet with a weaker replacement Council and the Turians have the political will to build and deploy ships faster than the Asari even if they have to commission Asari shipyards to supplement their own, the galaxy might be better prepared to face the Reapers in the long run by the Alliance fleet holding back.

I feel like I am channelling Mordin here... complex situations, not a simple or obvious problem, many variables. Sometimes have to go with what seems right at the time.

Ah...but is that outcome truly superior? if the DA is destroid then the pillar of moral for the entire Council military is gone, and moral itself is half the battle in many cases. On top of that...galatic unity is gone, all races are pretty much out for themselves now or at least are agaisnt the powers that be. Secondly...the Turians may be increasing production...but the Asari completely ceased ALL warship production permanently. All the Turians are doing at this point is making up for the lack of Asari ships...not adding more then there was to start with. On top of that The Destiny Ascention itself is probably worth a small fleet in and of itself. yes we've seen how it was "oh so ineffective" against the geth ships...but honestly that ship performed amazeingly as far as I'm concerned. it was never built for close quarters knife fight ranges. The only thing it could use to defend itself was it's GARDIAN system. Which as any Mass Effect fan would know becomes less accurate and overall useless the longer the system is used, the lasers burn out and becomes nothing but wild fire in random directions. However if used in short bursts GARDIAN is a near invincible system and is 100% accurate. Considering how long the Destiny Ascention survived pretty much single handedly with nothing but it's GARDIAN system I would say it's a pretty amazeing warship.  

[Spectre_907]

Moiaussi wrote...

None of that changes the fact that there is a delay before the arms can open and that you are gambling on them opening sooner rather than later.

No. Shepard opens the relays while ordering the Fifth Fleet to move into the battle if you either elect to save the Council or concentrate on Sovereign. Thus, I take what you're saying into consideration. 'How much time do we have?' If I'm going to try to eliminate the geth and then go after Sovereign while on a timetable, I need to know this to consider that option. I don't. So I'll leave it to the Citadel fleet and the DA to deal with the geth. And this still doesn't change the fact that my reinforcements will be compromised saving the Council. I want my fleet in better shape when fighting Sovereign

While you are waiting, you are missing an opportunity to outflank the Geth fleet, to come in on their six. There is more there than simply the Council or crew of the DA.

Except I know nothing about the battle to consider this. You don't just rush into the battlefield to save a target and remove any additional opposition to facilitate attack on a larger target when you both don't know what that opposition looks like and you're being timed.

Stop pretending you know the answers in advance or that estimating wrong means that reality is wrong instead of your estimates.

No. That's what you're doing. I'm going by what the narrative is telling me. Whether I am wrong or not in my estimate is irrelevant. I have limited intel and I act on it.

They didn't know how that would work exactly.

But it did. It doesn't matter what the function of the program was. It worked as Vigil explained it would.

And you still haven't explained why Sovereign felt it neccessary to reanimate Saren, if it could have overridden Vigil's software without the humanoid body, especially since destroying mecha-Saren seemed to have such a devestating effect on Sovereign's main body.

I didn't say he could override the controls. I said he could regain control of the station. Obviously if we have control over the station for a temporary period Sovereign can regain control of it once the time is exhausted. Even if it was the case that Sovereign couldn't regain control of the station without possessing Saren, we don't know that.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 17 juin 2011 - 09:56 .

[Moiaussi]

Spectre_907 wrote...

No. Shepard opens the relays while ordering the Fifth Fleet to move into the battle if you either elect to save the Council or concentrate on Sovereign. Thus, I take what you're saying into consideration. 'How much time do we have?' If I'm going to try to eliminate the geth and then go after Sovereign while on a timetable, I need to know this to consider that option. I don't. So I'll leave it to the Citadel fleet and the DA to deal with the geth. And this still doesn't change the fact that my reinforcements will be compromised saving the Council. I want my fleet in better shape when fighting Sovereign

Why would Shepard wait to open the arms regardless of choice? What do you think he is doing meanwhile, stopping for tea and crumpets?

Except I know nothing about the battle to consider this. You don't just rush into the battlefield to save a target and remove any additional opposition to facilitate attack on a larger target when you both don't know what that opposition looks like and you're being timed.

Besides the fact that presumably the admiral in charge of the actual fleet (who is neither Shepard nor Joker) can make that judgement call, you know that ships are engaging the DA. Once the DA blows up, what do you think they will do? The ships not attacking the DA are presumably engaged with other elements of the Citadel fleet, which are not reporting as being disabled. Once you engage sovereign, some or all of your firepower will be on Sovereign. That means the Geth currently engaging the DA will either force you to break off some of your firepower to deal with them, or you will be taking unanswered losses from them. Unless you think you can one-shot Sovereign (which the Citadel fleet was unable to do), you will be taking on Sovereign with diminishing firepower.

No. That's what you're doing. I'm going by what the narrative is telling me. Whether I am wrong or not in my estimate is irrelevant. I have limited intel and I act on it.

We are coming to different conclusions based on the same intel based on different weightings of different aspects of said intel. That is the nature of judgement calls. You are insisting that your judgement is better than mine.

But it did. It doesn't matter what the function of the program was. It worked as Vigil explained it would.

So why did Sovereign need to take the appearantly incredibly risky step of reanimating Saren?

I didn't say he could override the controls. I said he could regain control of the station. Obviously if we have control over the station for a temporary period Sovereign can regain control of it once the time is exhausted. Even if it was the case that Sovereign couldn't regain control of the station without possessing Saren, we don't know that.

It isn't like the program itself had a timer. Why would Vigil built it that way? Regardless, the arms were not open yet. Other than taking the time to talk to Joker, Shepard presumably opened them as soon as he could (he may even have started the process during the conversation, it didn't seem to be voice activated). The decision is what to do while waiting for the arms to open. I maintain there is a case for shooting Geth in the meanwhile.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...
If they are firing at the DA they are not lined up on the Alliance vessels. If they ignore the Alliance vessels as they approach the citadel, they would ignore them as they approach the ships concentrating on the DA. Getting into a defensive position isn't automatic, especially with a nebula limiting maneuver. We see next to nothing of the fight, certainly not any sort of play by play. Not enough to judge anything. We don't even see the entire battlefield.

And once the ships do come through the relay THE ARMS ARE STILL CLOSED. So they would still be holding off. 
The number of times you say that you should assume they would have opened sooner doesn't change the fact that they didn't and that you now have more Geth to face because they are no longer firing on the DA by the time you get your opening volley on Sovereign.

So you are saying that Sovereign tossed out his entire plan just out of pride? Even though if he had broken the Prothean hack he would have had plenty of revenge? If the Reapers are that idiotic, we should have no trouble at all defeating them. I am not betting on that level of idiocy.

Look, we really are going around in circles here. You can't seem to accept the concept that judgement calls are judgement calls and that reality doesn't have any obligation to ensure your premises are correct.

Those missles that destroy alliance ships come down like rain... directly at the Alliance.  And the destroyed Alliance ships is plenty evidence that they weren't ignored.  And again, the geth battle is all around the station... not just where the DA is.  And by the time they arrive at the arms, the doors are open... and they are constantly advancing toward the arms. 

Regarding Sovereign, I have no idea why you'd ask this question if you read what I said... especially if you feel like you're going in circles when you ignore the rebuttals to your arguement.  Shepard is the one responsible for uploading Vigil's data into the system (granting Shepard temporary control)... Sovereign eliminating a threat like that is not out of the question.... and certainly not tossing out his "entire plan."

And once more you project things on me that I never said.  I never denied this being a judgement call... to accuse me of it makes you 100% wrong.  Of course it's a judement call... hence there being a choice to make.

If you'd refrain from spinning yourself in circles, I'd appreciate it and we'd reach the end of our discussion faster.

The choice still comes down to whether Sovereign is viewed as a threat needing immediate attention or not... the player has no idea how long either effort will take and no idea how long they've got before Sovereign retakes the station.  But naturally, heading straight for the relay is assumed to be faster than taking time out to save the Ascension.  The Paragon response felt that there was time for that or that Sovereign wasn't enough of a threat to sacrifice the Council over... nothing wrong with that.. but that's what it was.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 17 juin 2011 - 11:24 .

[Spectre_907]

Moiaussi wrote...
Besides the fact that presumably the admiral in charge of the actual fleet (who is neither Shepard nor Joker) can make that judgement call

Admiral Hackett defers to Shepard to make the call. Either we move in while the arms are opening up or hold back while the arms open up. That's it.

Once the DA blows up, what do you think they will do? The ships not attacking the DA are presumably engaged with other elements of the Citadel fleet, which are not reporting as being disabled. Once you engage sovereign, some or all of your firepower will be on Sovereign. That means the Geth currently engaging the DA will either force you to break off some of your firepower to deal with them, or you will be taking unanswered losses from them. Unless you think you can one-shot Sovereign (which the Citadel fleet was unable to do), you will be taking on Sovereign with diminishing firepower.

Or other turian ships could be engaging the geth as well as the DA. Or the geth may be too far away and decide to deal with other ships that are closer. The DA can be simply adrift. Other turian ships could be closing in to which the geth would have to deal with. As I said (many times), either of these (and more) is possible because we have no intel about the battle whatsoever.

We are coming to different conclusions based on the same intel based on different weightings of different aspects of said intel. That is the nature of judgement calls. You are insisting that your judgement is better than mine.

Because I'm not speculating on something I have absolutely no intel on. You are.

So why did Sovereign need to take the appearantly incredibly risky step of reanimating Saren?

I don't know nor care. It's irrelevant to the choice in context.

It isn't like the program itself had a timer. Why would Vigil built it that way?

I don't know why but Vigil does it. As proven in the narrative.

"...corrupt security protocols and give you temporary control over the station."

"Quick open the station's arms. Maybe the fleet can take Sovereign down before he regains control of the station."

Regardless, the arms were not open yet. Other than taking the time to talk to Joker, Shepard presumably opened them as soon as he could (he may even have started the process during the conversation, it didn't seem to be voice activated). The decision is what to do while waiting for the arms to open. I maintain there is a case for shooting Geth in the meanwhile.

No they weren't and yes the decision is carried out while the arms are opening but I have no intel about the battle. Either of the aforementioned possibilities are true. These risks are far outweighed by the fact that Sovereign can regain control of the relay.

[Moiaussi]

Those missles that destroy alliance ships come down like rain... directly at the Alliance.  And the destroyed Alliance ships is plenty evidence that they weren't ignored.  And again, the geth battle is all around the station... not just where the DA is.  And by the time they arrive at the arms, the doors are open... and they are constantly advancing toward the arms.

If you save the DA, it gets the all clear as the arms are opening. If you don't save the DA, it is blowing up as the arms are opening. Either way, the DA is dealt with by the time the arms are opening. The rest if the battle is all around the station in both situations too, so it is irrelevant. Again, you are avoiding the question of what the ships that were attacking the DA do as the DA blows up and the Alliance fleet sails right past them to shoot Sovereign?

Regarding Sovereign, I have no idea why you'd ask this question if you read what I said... especially if you feel like you're going in circles when you ignore the rebuttals to your arguement.  Shepard is the one responsible for uploading Vigil's data into the system (granting Shepard temporary control)... Sovereign eliminating a threat like that is not out of the question.... and certainly not tossing out his "entire plan."

By concentrating on Shepard, Sovereign became vulnerable and lost. Shepard couldn't exactly just shoot Sovereign (the ship) to death with small arms.

And once more you project things on me that I never said.  I never denied this being a judgement call... to accuse me of it makes you 100% wrong.  Of course it's a judement call... hence there being a choice to make.

If you'd refrain from spinning yourself in circles, I'd appreciate it and we'd reach the end of our discussion faster.

Are you saying that both paragon and renegade decisions are logical then? That didn't seem to be what you were saying.

The choice still comes down to whether Sovereign is viewed as a threat needing immediate attention or not... the player has no idea how long either effort will take and no idea how long they've got before Sovereign retakes the station.  But naturally, heading straight for the relay is assumed to be faster than taking time out to save the Ascension.  The Paragon response felt that there was time for that or that Sovereign wasn't enough of a threat to sacrifice the Council over... nothing wrong with that.. but that's what it was.

Again, you seem to be assuming that the fleet heads straight for the relay despite the choice being 'save the ascension or hold back.' Not trying to put words in your mouth.

You also don't seem to be understanding what I am saying though. It is not just whether Sovereign needs immediate attention but whether immediate attention yields the best chance fo stopping Sovereign.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

If you save the DA, it gets the all clear as the arms are opening. If you don't save the DA, it is blowing up as the arms are opening. Either way, the DA is dealt with by the time the arms are opening. The rest if the battle is all around the station in both situations too, so it is irrelevant. Again, you are avoiding the question of what the ships that were attacking the DA do as the DA blows up and the Alliance fleet sails right past them to shoot Sovereign?

The arms are opening by the time they get there, therefore, no waiting.  The only "holding back" that's done is "refraining from saving the Destiny Ascension."

The reason why the "battle is all around the station" bit is relevant is because it removes the excuse of Geth attacking if you don't save the Ascension... it would make no meaningful difference if there's Geth all over the place.

The ships that were attacking the DA appear to continue engaging the rest of the Citadel forces.  The Geth are machines that follow orders... it's very likely that their mission upon arrival was to wipe out all Citadel forces (it's definitely what they were doing).

By concentrating on Shepard, Sovereign became vulnerable and lost. Shepard couldn't exactly just shoot Sovereign (the ship) to death with small arms.

Which is why I said the Arcturus fleet was the galaxy's only hope.  Shepard's data file only slowed down Sovereign... the ships were the ones that would have to truly stop him at the time.

Are you saying that both paragon and renegade decisions are logical then? That didn't seem to be what you were saying.

I said the Paragon decision put the galaxy at risk for the sake of saving the council.  Is this wrong?  No it's not.  The short-term moral "right" of the time is always a logical conclusion to reach... but one that does not respect time limits and the threat that Sovereign poses.

Again, you seem to be assuming that the fleet heads straight for the relay despite the choice being 'save the ascension or hold back.' Not trying to put words in your mouth.

The choice is "Concentrate on Sovereign/Let the Council die" and "Save the Council."  They were talking about refraining from assisting the DA... to hold back on that (because they're ready to move in and save the Ascension). 

You also don't seem to be understanding what I am saying though. It is not just whether Sovereign needs immediate attention but whether immediate attention yields the best chance fo stopping Sovereign.

Same thing.  If you don't think immediate attention yields the best chance of winning... then you don't think Sovereign needs immediate attention.  If you think you stand a better chance taking more time to prepare for an assault, that means you don't feel Sovereign will do anything during the span of time you're not there.  Because... who wouldn't want to take the time and prepare until they were absolutely certain they could win?  The problem is that the time table is not in the hands of Shepard.  That's what I've been saying... and it's come to this for both big Paragon/Renegade decisions.

Ultimately, to stop Sovereign... you either sacrifice the Council and throw everything you've got at Sovereign or you save the Council and throw everything that's left at Sovereign.  The rest are simply unknown quantities. 

"do you sacrifice anything for the greater good' or are you unwilling to make certain sacrifices just to justify the end."

In this case, Paragons weren't willing to sacrifice the Council just to justify beating Sovereign.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 18 juin 2011 - 03:58 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The arms are opening by the time they get there, therefore, no waiting.  The only "holding back" that's done is "refraining from saving the Destiny Ascension."

The reason why the "battle is all around the station" bit is relevant is because it removes the excuse of Geth attacking if you don't save the Ascension... it would make no meaningful difference if there's Geth all over the place.

The ships that were attacking the DA appear to continue engaging the rest of the Citadel forces.  The Geth are machines that follow orders... it's very likely that their mission upon arrival was to wipe out all Citadel forces (it's definitely what they were doing).

Reviewing the clips, the Alliance fleet gets to Sovereign approximately 40 seconds faster if the DA is not saved. The cost of this is whatever the net change in fleet strength is and what happens in the 4 minutes after they reach Sovereign, which is unknown since the camera cuts back inside.

I don't understand your point about other Geth being there at all. It seems like you are saying that because the Geth attacking the DA aren't the only Geth in the battle, that those specific ships that we know will be freed up are completely irrelevant to the Alliance fleet and ignore it even though the Alliance fleet is otherwise unengaged, are prime targets since their guns are all focused on Sovereign, and that presumably the Geth agree on Sovereign's importance and have plenty of reason to defend it. Those ships don't just vanish simply because they are not alone, nor would they ignore a threat to their most important ship.

The Geth may obey orders but they are not stupid, and the scene cuts to the interior of the Citadel before we can have any clue what they are doing. By the way your point about the Alliance fleet taking missile fire is countered by the Geth fleet losing ships first. Even if those ships didn't engage the Alliance fleet, that is luck not a rational course of action on the part of the Geth.

Which is why I said the Arcturus fleet was the galaxy's only hope.  Shepard's data file only slowed down Sovereign... the ships were the ones that would have to truly stop him at the time.

You are assuming that the fleet would retain enuogh strength long enough despite ignoring the Geth fleet.

I said the Paragon decision put the galaxy at risk for the sake of saving the council.  Is this wrong?  No it's not.  The short-term moral "right" of the time is always a logical conclusion to reach... but one that does not respect time limits and the threat that Sovereign poses.

Grrrr. Are you telling me that I am lieing when I say that I believe there are longer term reasons for saving the Council? Fair enough that you have a different assessment of the battle, but please stop telling me what I believe. You also keep implying that renegades feel lousy about everything they do.

The choice is "Concentrate on Sovereign/Let the Council die" and "Save the Council."  They were talking about refraining from assisting the DA... to hold back on that (because they're ready to move in and save the Ascension).

For the 3rd or 4th time, that is Shepard's reply.  It is a reply to Joker's question 'Save the Council or hold back?' Just because the question being answered is inconvenient to your arguement doesn't mean you get to ignore it. 

Same thing.  If you don't think immediate attention yields the best chance of winning... then you don't think Sovereign needs immediate attention.  If you think you stand a better chance taking more time to prepare for an assault, that means you don't feel Sovereign will do anything during the span of time you're not there.  Because... who wouldn't want to take the time and prepare until they were absolutely certain they could win?  The problem is that the time table is not in the hands of Shepard.  That's what I've been saying... and it's come to this for both big Paragon/Renegade decisions.

Ultimately, to stop Sovereign... you either sacrifice the Council and throw everything you've got at Sovereign or you save the Council and throw everything that's left at Sovereign.  The rest are simply unknown quantities. 

"do you sacrifice anything for the greater good' or are you unwilling to make certain sacrifices just to justify the end."

In this case, Paragons weren't willing to sacrifice the Council just to justify beating Sovereign.

It isn't 'needs immediate attention' so much as 'does immediate attention render such immediate attention moot?' Think of it in terms of the charge of the light brigade. Do you charge the guns that are threatening your troops while ignoring the flanking troops that will have you in a crossfire all the way or do you deal with the flanking troops first? The Citadel battle situation isn't quite as clear cut as that of the Light Brigade, but the principle remains the same.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

Reviewing the clips, the Alliance fleet gets to Sovereign approximately 40 seconds faster if the DA is not saved. The cost of this is whatever the net change in fleet strength is and what happens in the 4 minutes after they reach Sovereign, which is unknown since the camera cuts back inside.

I don't understand your point about other Geth being there at all. It seems like you are saying that because the Geth attacking the DA aren't the only Geth in the battle, that those specific ships that we know will be freed up are completely irrelevant to the Alliance fleet and ignore it even though the Alliance fleet is otherwise unengaged, are prime targets since their guns are all focused on Sovereign, and that presumably the Geth agree on Sovereign's importance and have plenty of reason to defend it. Those ships don't just vanish simply because they are not alone, nor would they ignore a threat to their most important ship.

The Geth may obey orders but they are not stupid, and the scene cuts to the interior of the Citadel before we can have any clue what they are doing. By the way your point about the Alliance fleet taking missile fire is countered by the Geth fleet losing ships first. Even if those ships didn't engage the Alliance fleet, that is luck not a rational course of action on the part of the Geth.

The reason being is that the DA is not the "last thing keeping the Geth from having something to do if it weren't for the Arcturus Fleet."  They went there to destroy the Citadel fleet, and that's what they were doing, after destroying the Ascension, they would naturally continue fighting against the other ships.  The DA wasn't the only ship there and certainly not the only battle happening outside of the station.

You are assuming that the fleet would retain enuogh strength long enough despite ignoring the Geth fleet.

I'm assuming that what those fleets do is irrelevant if Sovereign retakes the station... and if the Geth destroy the Citadel forces before then, it doesn't really make a difference what happens in the area where the DA was.

Grrrr. Are you telling me that I am lieing when I say that I believe there are longer term reasons for saving the Council? Fair enough that you have a different assessment of the battle, but please stop telling me what I believe. You also keep implying that renegades feel lousy about everything they do.

lol calm down.  Any long-term reasons you may have don't negate the points I stated.  I said that's what it boils down to (regardless of personal reasoning).  You either feel there's enough time to build forcers/save the Ascension/pick your nose/whatever you want to do.... or you don't feel there's enough time and you need to get there ASAP.  Getting there ASAP results in sacrificing the Council.

For the 3rd or 4th time, that is Shepard's reply.  It is a reply to Joker's question 'Save the Council or hold back?' Just because the question being answered is inconvenient to your arguement doesn't mean you get to ignore it. 

I didn't ignore it.. are we talking about the choice or his reply?  The choices I listed verbatum as they are in the game.  Is this a problem?

It isn't 'needs immediate attention' so much as 'does immediate attention render such immediate attention moot?' Think of it in terms of the charge of the light brigade. Do you charge the guns that are threatening your troops while ignoring the flanking troops that will have you in a crossfire all the way or do you deal with the flanking troops first? The Citadel battle situation isn't quite as clear cut as that of the Light Brigade, but the principle remains the same.

It doesn't negate the fact that you choose to wait because you feel your chances are better than if you didn't.  Which means you don't feel that waiting would result in the worst outcome when faced with the alternative.

[Rip504]

Saberwolf116 wrote...

 I'm playing Paragon at the moment, so i'm not doing any of the renegade interrupts. However, a few of them didn't really seem renegade at all.

For example: When you're on Mordin's loyalty mission, you're given an opportunity to blow up the fuel tank below a Krogan who's monologuing. To me, this doesn't seem renegade; it seems like the logical decision. After all, you end up killing him and his guards anyway, so why not save some time and bullets?

There's also one during Miranda's loyalty mission where you're given the option to shoot a crate and have it drop on a few guards. Again, you end up killing them anyway, so why not do it?

Wrong I disagree with you. No Renegade does not equal logical.

I also consider both of those actions to be considered Renegade. One you burn a sentient creature to death,for your personal gain.
The other has you breaking someone's neck and brutally crushing others with a crate,for your personal gain(Speeding it up,or skipping through it,"cuz we gonna fight anyway",is personal gain.).

Also in both of these cases,during the game you do not know that you can not talk them down. Ending up in a fight no matter what does not justify either action. In a fight to the death yes it's cool,still Renegade. But this is a game with a morale compass and a honor code to combat.

[Dave of Canada]

Let me get this straight, somebody who is threatening to kill you and do other atrocities shouldn't be killed immediately because that isn't logical, it's better to wait and have them shoot first? What?

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

The reason being is that the DA is not the "last thing keeping the Geth from having something to do if it weren't for the Arcturus Fleet."  They went there to destroy the Citadel fleet, and that's what they were doing, after destroying the Ascension, they would naturally continue fighting against the other ships.  The DA wasn't the only ship there and certainly not the only battle happening outside of the station.

I am sure the Geth have many things on their to do list -  shoot Council ship, pray to Sovereign, register their votes for their preferred Geth Dyson Sphere's Got Talent contestants - but the Arcturus fleet suddenly become not just targets of opportunity, but of immediate tactical importance. As you say, if Sovereign falls so does their plan.

I'm assuming that what those fleets do is irrelevant if Sovereign retakes the station... and if the Geth destroy the Citadel forces before then, it doesn't really make a difference what happens in the area where the DA was.

The Geth completely ignoring the Arcturus fleet makes no tactical sense from the Geth perspective.

lol calm down.  Any long-term reasons you may have don't negate the points I stated.  I said that's what it boils down to (regardless of personal reasoning).  You either feel there's enough time to build forcers/save the Ascension/pick your nose/whatever you want to do.... or you don't feel there's enough time and you need to get there ASAP.  Getting there ASAP results in sacrificing the Council.

Keep in mind that since I disagree with your points, I am not making my decision based on them. The only short term reasons for my decisions are tactical. There is no 'do the right thing' other than by way of which provides the likely greatest long term results, keeping in mind that short term survival is needed to achieve long term anything.

I didn't ignore it.. are we talking about the choice or his reply?  The choices I listed verbatum as they are in the game.  Is this a problem?

You keep repeating the answer out of context with the question. It turns out that there is no delay entering the battlefield but the real difference in time before engaging Sovereign turns out to be only approximately 40 seconds.

It doesn't negate the fact that you choose to wait because you feel your chances are better than if you didn't.  Which means you don't feel that waiting would result in the worst outcome when faced with the alternative.

But the question is why the chances are considered better from whichever option. I am pointing out that for some of us at least, neither the lives on the DA nor the DA itself is the reason for saving it. That doesn't mean it is the better decision. We don't know at the end of ME2 (since we don't get total casualty numbers), and may not even know for certain in ME3.

[Rip504]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Let me get this straight, somebody who is threatening to kill you and do other atrocities shouldn't be killed immediately because that isn't logical, it's better to wait and have them shoot first? What?

Where was it said it isn't logical to kill someone planning on killing you? I am personally talking about the way the "cold blooded murders" took place.

If this were the case,I would say 1 bullet to the brain,instead of 2 bullets to burn him in the middle of speech, would be more logical. In his rant he may say something important,that can help Shepard. BS? What? No. If you kill the Asari merc during Samara's recruitment,you miss out on the knowledge that Samara is chasing an Ardak-yashi.

If your gonna kill him anyway,why not wait? and kill him with honor? It is a game. Shepard always win. Your life is not at risk. Shepard has beat ME1 & ME2 without dying during the missions,or hasn't been beaten in anyway, (Except for bad writing.) I will admit that my Paragon Shepards usally do use the Renegade interupts in these situations.!.

Also how is burnng someone alive the "logical" choice? Punching a reporter for doing her job doesn't seem very "logical" to me either etc...

Modifié par Rip504, 18 juin 2011 - 09:20 .

[Spectre_907]

Killing someone (shooting them, burning them, snapping their neck, whatever) who has demonstrated an unwillingness to cooperate peacefully is an efficient means of neutralizing a situation. Necessary force to eliminate opposition. Seems pretty logical to me.

Modifié par Spectre_907, 18 juin 2011 - 10:24 .

[Rip504]

Spectre_907 wrote...

Killing someone (shooting them, burning them, snapping their neck, whatever) who has demonstrated an unwillingness to cooperate peacefully is an efficient means of neutralizing a situation. Necessary force to eliminate opposition. Seems pretty logical to me.

The Krogan is defending hiself. Shepard is forcing the issue. Mordin wants to help his old friend who is there of his own free will. Shepard may not know this,but the Krogan does. Krogans fight,it's what they do. Now you are breaking in to kidnap the guy making their cure,Your intent is to kill any who oppose that goal. The Krogan also knows this..You decide to kill him. Not the other way around. If he shoots first,now Shepard is defending. Get it?
It would be logical for him to shoot Shepard instead of talking by your standards. Hell why is their even voice in a game where we know we will be killing the enemy. Just shoot. Killing in cold blood is logical & not a renegade action. No Bioware thinks differently,and as it is their game they are correct.!.

Ps: You don't get Paragon points for not shooting him. As you are killing these Krogan and Vorcha in cold blood do to  false information. Yes their clan is aggresive,but so are Clan Urdnot. Also it is considered unnecessary force to burn him alive.

Modifié par Rip504, 18 juin 2011 - 11:06 .

[Moiaussi]

Rip504 wrote...

 It is a game.

It isn't a game to Shepard, at least as long as he is acting professional. Shep doesn't know there is a save game function or that the odds are deliberately designed by a higher power to give him good odds of winning.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

I am sure the Geth have many things on their to do list -  shoot Council ship, pray to Sovereign, register their votes for their preferred Geth Dyson Sphere's Got Talent contestants - but the Arcturus fleet suddenly become not just targets of opportunity, but of immediate tactical importance. As you say, if Sovereign falls so does their plan.

As Sovereign is their god, the Geth would likely want to remain "faithful" and obedient to their own task of wiping out the CItadel forces.  Part of that means they don't consider any attacks against Sovereign to be a threat... not against Sovereign.

The Geth completely ignoring the Arcturus fleet makes no tactical sense from the Geth perspective.

The heretic Geth follow orders, they're not paid to exercise independent thought.

Keep in mind that since I disagree with your points, I am not making my decision based on them. The only short term reasons for my decisions are tactical. There is no 'do the right thing' other than by way of which provides the likely greatest long term results, keeping in mind that short term survival is needed to achieve long term anything.

It doesn't change the fact that you either feel you have time or don't respect the threat Sovereign poses.  Survival is not short term, not on this scale.  All life in the galaxy would be destroyed.  Short term would be their own immediate and local lives, but not all life in the galaxy following the Reaper invasion.

You keep repeating the answer out of context with the question. It turns out that there is no delay entering the battlefield but the real difference in time before engaging Sovereign turns out to be only approximately 40 seconds.

 
Then they aren't wasting time "holding back."  That only further proves that "holding back" was with reference to saving the Ascension.  To hold them back from saving the ascension.. not to just wait around.

But the question is why the chances are considered better from whichever option. I am pointing out that for some of us at least, neither the lives on the DA nor the DA itself is the reason for saving it. That doesn't mean it is the better decision. We don't know at the end of ME2 (since we don't get total casualty numbers), and may not even know for certain in ME3.

Fact still remains that the Paragon choice put the entire galaxy at risk trying to save the Council (instead of sacrificing them to go after Sovereign as soon as possible)... but it paid off, so be happy about it.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 18 juin 2011 - 09:43 .

[Rip504]

Moiaussi wrote...

Rip504 wrote...

 It is a game.

It isn't a game to Shepard, at least as long as he is acting professional. Shep doesn't know there is a save game function or that the odds are deliberately designed by a higher power to give him good odds of winning.

We do not disagree much,but the player is Shepard. The player does know,and now so does Shepard. It's a game. Shepard is unbeatable,even if you just base it on previous events.

[Rip504]

Modifié par Rip504, 18 juin 2011 - 11:43 .

[Moiaussi]

Rip504 wrote...

We do not disagree much,but the player is Shepard. The player does know,and now so does Shepard. It's a game. Shepard is unbeatable,even if you just base it on previous events.

Then why does Shepard run all over creation wasting time gathering a team and likely even more time making them happy? Why not just run solo or just with Jacob and Miranda? After all, if Shepard is unbeatable...

It is a game but it is a roleplaying game. Shepard is a role that the the player takes on. Shepard doesn't act like he is in a game. The suggestion that it is a suicide mission in ME2 comes from Shepard.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Shepard is not unbeatable... some Shepards have already died permanently (the ones that can't carry over to ME3 because Shepard didn't survive). Not to mention that everyone's Shepard has died once already... mostly... sort of... yeah.