204 réponses à ce sujet

[Moiaussi]

[quote]Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

As Sovereign is their god, the Geth would likely want to remain "faithful" and obedient to their own task of wiping out the CItadel forces.  Part of that means they don't consider any attacks against Sovereign to be a threat... not against Sovereign.[/quote]

Pretty presumptuous your claiming to know their orders. You are also assuming that Sovereign wouldn't change any such orders. Why would the orders be that specific anyway? Why wouldn't any enemy ship present be considered part of the 'citadel forces?' The Geth are not mindless.

[quote]The heretic Geth follow orders, they're not paid to exercise independent thought.[/quote]

And you know this how? And more importantly know their orders how?

[quote[It doesn't change the fact that you either feel you have time or don't respect the threat Sovereign poses.  Survival is not short term, not on this scale.  All life in the galaxy would be destroyed.  Short term would be their own immediate and local lives, but not all life in the galaxy following the Reaper invasion.[/quote]

If you don't survive long enough to stop Sovereign, you can't stop Sovereign. Surviving long enough in the short term to stop Sovereign ensures that Sovereign is stopped, which in turn ensures long term survival. It is a pretty basic concept.

[quote]Then they aren't wasting time "holding back."  That only further proves that "holding back" was with reference to saving the Ascension.  To hold them back from saving the ascension.. not to just wait around.[/quote]

You don't know in advance it will be only 40 seconds.

[quote]Fact still remains that the Paragon choice put the entire galaxy at risk trying to save the Council (instead of sacrificing them to go after Sovereign as soon as possible)... but it paid off, so be happy about it.[/quote]

BUT MY DECISION ISN"T BASED ON SAVING THE COUNCIL. You may disagree with my reasoning and can pretend all you want that you know the Geth's orders and mindset but quit trying to tell me you know my motivations better than I do!

[Rip504]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

Shepard is not unbeatable... some Shepards have already died permanently (the ones that can't carry over to ME3 because Shepard didn't survive). Not to mention that everyone's Shepard has died once already... mostly... sort of... yeah.

If you die in ME2's suicide mission it doesn't import. ME3 will still happen. SHEPARD IS STILL ALIVE.
And I have already acknowledge the writers killing off Shepard. I said during the missions. Implying gameplay.

Moiaussi wrote...


Then why does Shepard run all over
creation wasting time gathering a team and likely even more time making
them happy? Why not just run solo or just with Jacob and Miranda? After
all, if Shepard is unbeatable...

It is a game but it is a
roleplaying game. Shepard is a role that the the player takes on.
Shepard doesn't act like he is in a game. The suggestion that it is a
suicide mission in ME2 comes from Shepard.

It is a roleplaying game. I agree. But it is still a GAME.

The story has been written and is being told during gameplay. At the end of this story Shepard is alive. Period.

The crew and running all over proves it is a story being told during gameplay. And at the end Shepard is alive.
Take the word unbeatable out of context and let it mean whatever you like,but Shepard is alive at the end of ME2 as the Story for ME3 has/is being written. Unbeatable. It is a story being told during gameplay=Shepard wins at the end.=Unbeatable Shepard in- game. ME3 proves it. Shepard will be alive fighting Reapers in ME3.!.

Modifié par Rip504, 19 juin 2011 - 02:09 .

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

Pretty presumptuous your claiming to know their orders. You are also assuming that Sovereign wouldn't change any such orders. Why would the orders be that specific anyway? Why wouldn't any enemy ship present be considered part of the 'citadel forces?' The Geth are not mindless.

And you are assuming the opposite... all assumptions.  If you have a problem with discussing hypotheticals... then lets stick to what's in the actual game.  And while the Geth are not mindless, the Geth follow orders... and took their orders from Saren.  Saren is dead at the time of the choice... meaning they're left with the last order they were given.  Sovereign could give them a new order... sure... but he could give ALL the Geth those same new orders... doesn't really make a difference.

And you know this how? And more importantly know their orders how?

All that's been shown in the actual game shows the Geth taking orders and being lead by Saren whom in turn works for Sovereign.  At no point is it even hinted that the Geth do their own thing in Mass Effect 1.  For the rest of your question, see above reply.

If you don't survive long enough to stop Sovereign, you can't stop Sovereign. Surviving long enough in the short term to stop Sovereign ensures that Sovereign is stopped, which in turn ensures long term survival. It is a pretty basic concept.

As is stopping Sovereign in time.  It doesn't matter if you survive the attempt if he summons the Reapers before you're "ready."  It doesn't even matter if you destroy Sovereign after the other Reapers arrive.  Plus, if surviving in the short-term is the priority, then sending the fleet in harms way to save a ravaged Ascension may not be the best idea either (or even to kill a pocket of Geth first when they're not the only Geth around).

You don't know in advance it will be only 40 seconds.

Common sense dictates that the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line...

BUT MY DECISION ISN"T BASED ON SAVING THE COUNCIL. You may disagree with my reasoning and can pretend all you want that you know the Geth's orders and mindset but quit trying to tell me you know my motivations better than I do!

It doesn't have to be, but regardless you're sacrificing an unknown quanitity of ships for an unknown quanitity of crew or to defeat an unknown quanitity of Geth in one of many areas where the Geth are fighting.

Lol you sure do like to project.. Relax, I never said what your motivations were, I just said what the choice boiled down to... and it still does... even for you.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

For the record, I don't disagree with your 'reasoning' Moiaussi. It's your Shepard and your story when you play it.

The topic is still on Paragon Favoritism in the actual game itself... not to how you may personally weigh your choices.

And sure, the move to save the DA put the galaxy at risk... but it paid off did it not?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 19 juin 2011 - 04:13 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

And you are assuming the opposite... all assumptions.  If you have a problem with discussing hypotheticals... then lets stick to what's in the actual game.  And while the Geth are not mindless, the Geth follow orders... and took their orders from Saren.  Saren is dead at the time of the choice... meaning they're left with the last order they were given.  Sovereign could give them a new order... sure... but he could give ALL the Geth those same new orders... doesn't really make a difference.

I am assuming that the Geth are sentient beings fighting intelligently. What is your basis for your claim of knowing what their orders are? What do you even know of Saren's orders to them? As I recall, the Geth didn't target any non-Alliance anything until the Citadel battle, so why would you assume they would have orders to ignore Alliance vessels?

All that's been shown in the actual game shows the Geth taking orders and being lead by Saren whom in turn works for Sovereign.  At no point is it even hinted that the Geth do their own thing in Mass Effect 1.  For the rest of your question, see above reply.

You see Geth under Saren's direct command, accompanying him following his orders. Amazing. This gives you details of the entire battle plan, how? There were humans on the Citadel, did the Geth have orders not to shoot them? How about Shepard? Why is he being shot at if their orders are anywhere near as specific as you claim? And again, why would Sovereign not give them new orders even if you are correct? If Sovereign wasn't afraid of taking hits, why close the arms?

As is stopping Sovereign in time.  It doesn't matter if you survive the attempt if he summons the Reapers before you're "ready."  It doesn't even matter if you destroy Sovereign after the other Reapers arrive.  Plus, if surviving in the short-term is the priority, then sending the fleet in harms way to save a ravaged Ascension may not be the best idea either (or even to kill a pocket of Geth first when they're not the only Geth around).

Look, I'll try this one more time. If you die BEFORE you stop him, or if too much of the fleet dies before you stop him, YOU CAN"T STOP HIM. You have a similar decision as Shepard actually... you can try to ignore the Geth on the Citadel and try to just run past them all and get to Saren. After all, those Geth don't matter, right? If you don't stop Saren and Sovereign, they don't matter right? How well do you think that strategy would work out?

Common sense dictates that the shortest distance between 2 points is a straight line...

Through a nebula. And a knife fighting range space battle. And you don't know for certain what the Geth will do or how long it will really take for the Citadel to open. I think your common sense is closer to common naivity.

It doesn't have to be, but regardless you're sacrificing an unknown quanitity of ships for an unknown quanitity of crew or to defeat an unknown quanitity of Geth in one of many areas where the Geth are fighting.

And you are guessing as to the details of the Geth orders, assuming that even if you are right that the orders will not be changed, and that the Geth ships you are ignoring won't bite you in the butt, or at least bite the Arcturus fleet, jeopardizing their ability to deal with Sovereign.

Lol you sure do like to project.. Relax, I never said what your motivations were, I just said what the choice boiled down to... and it still does... even for you.

Then why do you keep repeating that my main consideration is the Council rather than the tactical situaiton? You are still doing so, telling me what my choice boils down to and completely ignoring the fact that I see it differently. So you say you aren't telling me what my motivations are, just what I am choosing between even though that is the essentially telling me my motivations.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

I am assuming that the Geth are sentient beings fighting intelligently. What is your basis for your claim of knowing what their orders are? What do you even know of Saren's orders to them? As I recall, the Geth didn't target any non-Alliance anything until the Citadel battle, so why would you assume they would have orders to ignore Alliance vessels?

My basis is their actions when they began their assualt on the Citadel... they attacked the Citadel forces... and continued attacking the Citadel forces throughout the rest of the battle.  They did that on purpose.  We've seen Saren give the Geth orders before... it's been said and shown what Saren's relationship with the Geth is.  I also noticed that the Geth don't seem to bother the Arcturus fleet if they pass by...  You can draw your own conclusions for why the Geth only attacked them when they interfered with the Geth's current objective, but I don't think there's many conclusions you could reach that sum everything up.

You see Geth under Saren's direct command, accompanying him following his orders. Amazing. This gives you details of the entire battle plan, how? There were humans on the Citadel, did the Geth have orders not to shoot them? How about Shepard? Why is he being shot at if their orders are anywhere near as specific as you claim? And again, why would Sovereign not give them new orders even if you are correct? If Sovereign wasn't afraid of taking hits, why close the arms?

Read above, the Geth will naturally destroy anyone interfering with their mission... as they've done throughout the entire game.  The arms were likely closed to keep the station from being damaged.

Look, I'll try this one more time. If you die BEFORE you stop him, or if too much of the fleet dies before you stop him, YOU CAN"T STOP HIM. You have a similar decision as Shepard actually... you can try to ignore the Geth on the Citadel and try to just run past them all and get to Saren. After all, those Geth don't matter, right? If you don't stop Saren and Sovereign, they don't matter right? How well do you think that strategy would work out?

Yeah, if you lose too much of your reinforcements trying to save the Council... you can't stop him.. absolutely.  But that's still irrelevant to the point that if you don't stop Sovereign in time, it won't matter whether you beat him or not.

Through a nebula. And a knife fighting range space battle. And you don't know for certain what the Geth will do or how long it will really take for the Citadel to open. I think your common sense is closer to common naivity.

Knife-fighting range?  No, this is across a large part of Citadel space (if not all of it).  Where the DA is located represents a small area of the rather massive whole of Citadel space.  And about the shortest distance being a straight line?  It's true... honest.

And you are guessing as to the details of the Geth orders, assuming that even if you are right that the orders will not be changed, and that the Geth ships you are ignoring won't bite you in the butt, or at least bite the Arcturus fleet, jeopardizing their ability to deal with Sovereign.

Whether you deal with the Geth or not... save the Ascension or not, rally other forces or not... if Sovereign is not stopped before he retakes the Citadel... it's over.  If there was no time limit, you could make your preparations as airtight as possible... could even go to another planet for a bit and research some tech... but alas... there is a presented time factor.

Then why do you keep repeating that my main consideration is the Council rather than the tactical situaiton? You are still doing so, telling me what my choice boils down to and completely ignoring the fact that I see it differently. So you say you aren't telling me what my motivations are, just what I am choosing between even though that is the essentially telling me my motivations.

There's a difference between the reason you make a choice, and what that choice ultimately boils down to.  If you want to gather your forces to beat Sovereign, then you feel you can take the time to ahead and do so... simple as that.  Why are you even arguing this point?

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 19 juin 2011 - 06:21 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

My basis is their actions when they began their assualt on the Citadel... they attacked the Citadel forces... and continued attacking the Citadel forces throughout the rest of the battle.  They did that on purpose.  We've seen Saren give the Geth orders before... it's been said and shown what Saren's relationship with the Geth is.  I also noticed that the Geth don't seem to bother the Arcturus fleet if they pass by...  You can draw your own conclusions for why the Geth only attacked them when they interfered with the Geth's current objective, but I don't think there's many conclusions you could reach that sum everything up.{/quote]

When they began their assault, who were they supposed to attack? The only force there at the time was the Citadel fleet. The ships that were engaged already had their targets. Furthermore, we don't see what happens in the 4 minutes+ after the citadel opens and the Alliance fleet engages Sovereign. We don't even see the entire battlefield and everything we see is after the decision is made. The engaged ships can't engage the Alliance ships without becoming vulnerable to the ships they are engaged with and the scene changes back to the interior before we can see what the ships that were attacking the DA decide to do.

Read above, the Geth will naturally destroy anyone interfering with their mission... as they've done throughout the entire game.  The arms were likely closed to keep the station from being damaged.

But you are making a blind assumption as to what that mission is. Why would it be specificly the Citadel fleet? And the station is described as being immune to ship's weapon bombardment.

Yeah, if you lose too much of your reinforcements trying to save the Council... you can't stop him.. absolutely.  But that's still irrelevant to the point that if you don't stop Sovereign in time, it won't matter whether you beat him or not.

When you keep using emotes like  you come across as trolling. If you save the Council, you get first volley on those Geth ships. If you don't, you are giving them the opportunity to have first volley on you. If they don't take it they don't, but stop pretending that isn't a risk. If they get first volley on the Alliance fleet, the fleet will lose more than if the Alliance shoots first.

{quote]Knife-fighting range?  No, this is across a large part of Citadel space (if not all of it).  Where the DA is located represents a small area of the rather massive whole of Citadel space.  And about the shortest distance being a straight line?  It's true... honest.

So you are saying that the battle is taking place 'all around the Citadel', yet the path between the Relay and the Citadel is not just conveniently clear but guaranteed to remain so, despite the fact that the fleet passes near the DA when they either save it or watch it explode. A straight line path is something to hope for, not to assume. Unless of course you are going to metagame your decision, but then this whole discussion is moot because you will metagame based on results regardless of how they were achieved.

Whether you deal with the Geth or not... save the Ascension or not, rally other forces or not... if Sovereign is not stopped before he retakes the Citadel... it's over.  If there was no time limit, you could make your preparations as airtight as possible... could even go to another planet for a bit and research some tech... but alas... there is a presented time factor.

You either have a mental block regarding my arguement or more likely (as evidenced by the  responses) you understand it but are just pretending not to. I restated it above in this post regardless.

There's a difference between the reason you make a choice, and what that choice ultimately boils down to.  If you want to gather your forces to beat Sovereign, then you feel you can take the time to ahead and do so... simple as that.  Why are you even arguing this point?

No, there isn't such a difference. Its like you are telling me that I am buying something for the name brand and not because I actually like some more tangible aspect of it like style or quality. You don't like the basis for my decision so you are deliberately and repeatedly misprepresenting it into a convenient straw man for you to knock down.

Fair enough that we disagree but stop misrepresenting my opinion.

[Ieldra]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...
And sure, the move to save the DA put the galaxy at risk... but it paid off did it not?

Yes, but that's not the question here. From the information we've got in the situation, it was dumb luck that it paid off. The real question is this: if this were real, would you take the risk? The whole galaxy against the 10K people on the DA and the Council? I claim that anything but a resounding "No" is a mark of insanity.

I recall in my first ME1 game the argument "Saving the Council could mean "game over"" warring with the meta-argument "They won't do that". I chose "concentrate on the Sovereign" then because I didn 't want to metagame. In those games where I saved the Council, I had to invent military circumstances to rationalize it. Inventing facts to justify your decision is fine as long as they don't contradict other facts - it's your ME universe after all -  but the fact remains that you must do this. You must, in a minor way, rewrite the scenario for the decision to save the DA to appear reasonable. The decision as presented by the game plainly suggests it might be "game over" if you save the DA.

Modifié par Ieldra2, 19 juin 2011 - 08:21 .

[Moiaussi]

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yes, but that's not the question here. From the information we've got in the situation, it was dumb luck that it paid off. The real question is this: if this were real, would you take the risk? The whole galaxy against the 10K people on the DA and the Council? I claim that anything but a resounding "No" is a mark of insanity.

I recall in my first ME1 game the argument "Saving the Council could mean "game over"" warring with the meta-argument "They won't do that". I chose "concentrate on the Sovereign" then because I didn 't want to metagame. In those games where I saved the Council, I had to invent military circumstances to rationalize it. Inventing facts to justify your decision is fine as long as they don't contradict other facts - it's your ME universe after all -  but the fact remains that you must do this. You must, in a minor way, rewrite the scenario for the decision to save the DA to appear reasonable. The decision as presented by the game plainly suggests it might be "game over" if you save the DA.

What is your answer to my question "What do you think the ships attacking the DA will do once it blows up?"

[Seboist]

Moiaussi wrote...

Ieldra2 wrote...

Yes, but that's not the question here. From the information we've got in the situation, it was dumb luck that it paid off. The real question is this: if this were real, would you take the risk? The whole galaxy against the 10K people on the DA and the Council? I claim that anything but a resounding "No" is a mark of insanity.

I recall in my first ME1 game the argument "Saving the Council could mean "game over"" warring with the meta-argument "They won't do that". I chose "concentrate on the Sovereign" then because I didn 't want to metagame. In those games where I saved the Council, I had to invent military circumstances to rationalize it. Inventing facts to justify your decision is fine as long as they don't contradict other facts - it's your ME universe after all -  but the fact remains that you must do this. You must, in a minor way, rewrite the scenario for the decision to save the DA to appear reasonable. The decision as presented by the game plainly suggests it might be "game over" if you save the DA.

What is your answer to my question "What do you think the ships attacking the DA will do once it blows up?"

Fight the remaining Citadel fleet that's what. Nowhere does in the say in the game that there's a risk of the Arcturus fleet being outflanked by them.

[Dean_the_Young]

And there's also, well, the rest of the Citadel Fleet that's holding the Geth fleet back.

[Moiaussi]

Seboist wrote...

Fight the remaining Citadel fleet that's what. Nowhere does in the say in the game that there's a risk of the Arcturus fleet being outflanked by them.

Nothing in the game says anything about what happens in the 4 minutes when the Alliance start attacking Sovereign and the camera has shifted back inside. There obviously is nothing in the game that tells you in advance what those ships will do regardless. You are betting all of civilization on them attacking the Citadel fleet instead of the fleet that is attacking their god and could cost them total victory.

We never get final total losses either way, only the details of the ships specificly lost saving the DA. If the Geth get the first volley it would be more effective than after the Alliance has already hit them, so if you are wrong about where the Geth ships will go, the total losses would almost certainly be higher.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 19 juin 2011 - 04:46 .

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And there's also, well, the rest of the Citadel Fleet that's holding the Geth fleet back.

If that fleet was available to engage the Geth attacking the DA, why was the DA in trouble? What ever is available to engage them was obviously not a match for those ships. Assuming they will suddenly become a match is again wishfull thinking.

[Wulfram]

When I got to that choice I asked myself "What Would Nelson Do?" and decided he'd take the opportunity to engage and destroy the enemy fleet rather than dither around until the citadel opened up.

If the Citadel fleet is still fairly strong, then the Alliance forces attack should free some of them up to help destroy sovereign. If it's weak, then abandoning them risks the Geth attacking you in the rear.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

Dean_the_Young wrote...

And there's also, well, the rest of the Citadel Fleet that's holding the Geth fleet back.

If that fleet was available to engage the Geth attacking the DA, why was the DA in trouble?

Because the Geth are fighting the combt line that the Destiny Ascension is a part of. The line of ships will continue to exist regardless of whether the Destiny Ascension dies or not. And as long as it continues to exist, the Geth can't disingage and turn around without the traditional consequences that occur in direct-fire naval warfare when one side tries to disengage while the other is still ready to fight.

What ever is available to engage them was obviously not a match for those ships. Assuming they will suddenly become a match is again wishfull thinking.

Yeah... that's really not how holding forces work. Casualties are expected, not a failure.

Losing a ship on a firing line is a part of attritional warfare: it doesn't mean that the line falls or is non-existent before or afterwards. 

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

Because the Geth are fighting the combt line that the Destiny Ascension is a part of. The line of ships will continue to exist regardless of whether the Destiny Ascension dies or not. And as long as it continues to exist, the Geth can't disingage and turn around without the traditional consequences that occur in direct-fire naval warfare when one side tries to disengage while the other is still ready to fight.

There are no formal combat lines. The DA has no screening ships, it is under direct attack and thus in peril. The immediate threat to the Geth attacking the DA was the DA. If there was any other threat able to bear on them it wasn't sufficient to pry them off the by that time disabled DA.

When the Alliance come in to save the DA, Geth break away from the DA to shoot back. If there were Council ships trying to save the DA, why weren't the Geth reacting to them as they did with the Alliance fleet and thus already committed? Alternatively, wouldn't taking out the Geth attacking the DA free up any such Council ships to help against Sovereign?

Yeah... that's really not how holding forces work. Casualties are expected, not a failure.

Losing a ship on a firing line is a part of attritional warfare: it doesn't mean that the line falls or is non-existent before or afterwards. 

You seem to be assuming that there is no level of attrition that constitutes a loss. There is a reason that traditionally the smaller fleet disengages. It cannot win an attrition war. The larger fleet is always doing more damage and as the battle continues, that advantage only increases. For a smaller fleet to win, they have to have some other advantage be it technological, psychological, whatever.

The Council fleet is smaller or the DA wouldn't have been in sufficient trouble that the Alliance took losses bailing it out.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

When they began their assault, who were they supposed to attack? The only force there at the time was the Citadel fleet. The ships that were engaged already had their targets. Furthermore, we don't see what happens in the 4 minutes+ after the citadel opens and the Alliance fleet engages Sovereign. We don't even see the entire battlefield and everything we see is after the decision is made. The engaged ships can't engage the Alliance ships without becoming vulnerable to the ships they are engaged with and the scene changes back to the interior before we can see what the ships that were attacking the DA decide to do.

We see the battlefield when the battle begins... and while Shepard is fighting Geth himself.  Even when the Ascension is destroyed, there's other ships out there.

But you are making a blind assumption as to what that mission is. Why would it be specificly the Citadel fleet? And the station is described as being immune to ship's weapon bombardment.

 
It's actually an educated guess given everything we've seen.  There's nothing showing the Geth ever bothered the reinforcements if you concentrate on Sovereign.  And the station has arms that open and close for a reason... worth thinking about.

When you keep using emotes like  you come across as trolling. If you save the Council, you get first volley on those Geth ships. If you don't, you are giving them the opportunity to have first volley on you. If they don't take it they don't, but stop pretending that isn't a risk. If they get first volley on the Alliance fleet, the fleet will lose more than if the Alliance shoots first.

You missed it then, I was poking at your arguement being similar to one I was using myself.  You were talking about if too many lives were lost before engaging Sovereign, beating Sovereign wouldn't be possible.  The only choice where losing lives before engaging Sovereign exists as a factor in the actual game is on the Paragon side.  More to think about.

So you are saying that the battle is taking place 'all around the Citadel', yet the path between the Relay and the Citadel is not just conveniently clear but guaranteed to remain so, despite the fact that the fleet passes near the DA when they either save it or watch it explode. A straight line path is something to hope for, not to assume. Unless of course you are going to metagame your decision, but then this whole discussion is moot because you will metagame based on results regardless of how they were achieved.

If you concentrate on Sovereign, you go directly to Sovereign... Sovereign isn't moving, so you're moving to one point.  Going directly from A to B (2 points) is usually a straight line...  You have no idea where the relay would send you going in, but regardless of your position the plan would be to head directly for Sovereign (straight toward the arms).  This shouldn't be hard.

You either have a mental block regarding my arguement or more likely (as evidenced by the  responses) you understand it but are just pretending not to. I restated it above in this post regardless.

I put those smilies there just to lighten the mood a bit.  This isn't an ego contest.  And I've been addressing your arguement,

No, there isn't such a difference. Its like you are telling me that I am buying something for the name brand and not because I actually like some more tangible aspect of it like style or quality. You don't like the basis for my decision so you are deliberately and repeatedly misprepresenting it into a convenient straw man for you to knock down.

Fair enough that we disagree but stop misrepresenting my opinion.

Lol yes there is a difference.  It's a matter of explicit and implicit choice.  If you decide to punch someone, that means you're willing to hit them.  If you shoot someone, that means you're willing to pull the trigger.  You have your explicit opinion down pat... it's surprising that you still don't understand the implicit implications.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 19 juin 2011 - 09:51 .

[tjzsf]

So, Moiaussi, you will criticize me stating that "save the council" is the rational choice/better decision/[pick your synonym here], and at the same time criticize someone else for saying that "focus on Sovereign" was the better choice.

Pick one and stick to it instead of falling back upon the cop-out of "wait until ME3".

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

We see the battlefield when the battle begins... and while Shepard is fighting Geth himself.  Even when the Ascension is destroyed, there's other ships out there.

Yes but they were already engaged with the Council fleet and still are when the Alliance fleet shows up. The fact that the Geth attacked the only defending ships and continue on their current targets rather than make themselves vulnerable by suddenly breaking off. We don't even see the Alliance's entire approach towards the Citadel, since the scene cuts briefly to the bridge of the Ascension. More importantly, we have no clue in advance how the Geth will react to the Alliance fleet since they are not there yet when the decision is made. You are metagaming based on your perception of the cut scenes after the fact. Even then you are making assumptions. Any Geth ships freed up by the destruction of the Ascension or destruction of any other ships of the Citadel fleet likely don't have time to close on the Alliance before the scene cuts away. Contrary to your statements, we do not see any go from any destroyed Council ship to another Council ship while the Alliance are there.

It's actually an educated guess given everything we've seen.  There's nothing showing the Geth ever bothered the reinforcements if you concentrate on Sovereign.  And the station has arms that open and close for a reason... worth thinking about.

There is nothing showing much of anything the Geth do after the Alliance shows up other than continue their attack on the DA.

You missed it then, I was poking at your arguement being similar to one I was using myself.  You were talking about if too many lives were lost before engaging Sovereign, beating Sovereign wouldn't be possible.  The only choice where losing lives before engaging Sovereign exists as a factor in the actual game is on the Paragon side.  More to think about.

Lives aren't the issue. There is more than enough population to replace crews relatively easily later. Ships are another matter. Ships equal firepower, and it isn't the DA's firepower we are talking about but that of any ships the Geth attacking the DA take out. There are enough ships committed to the DA to take out a dreadnaught tougher than any ship in the battle other than Sovereign. If we engage them while they are distracted by the DA, we get first volley and they become much less of a threat. That means drasticly reducing the risk of not being able to sustain sufficient firepower against Sovereign. It also means more surviving firepower when the Reapers show up, whether that is now or in ME3.

If you concentrate on Sovereign, you go directly to Sovereign... Sovereign isn't moving, so you're moving to one point.  Going directly from A to B (2 points) is usually a straight line...  You have no idea where the relay would send you going in, but regardless of your position the plan would be to head directly for Sovereign (straight toward the arms).  This shouldn't be hard.

Amazing that you know all these things in advance before your ships even pass through the relay. Almost like Shepard can forsee the future. The plan is obviously to head directly to the citadel. Sovereign's plan was the same but Sovy had to ram a Turian cruiser to accomplish that straight line. You figure every ship in the Alliance fleet could manage that? You are counting on blind luck.

I put those smilies there just to lighten the mood a bit.  This isn't an ego contest.  And I've been addressing your arguement,

You have been 'addressing my arguement' by radically changing it and addressing the straw man you set up.

Lol yes there is a difference.  It's a matter of explicit and implicit choice.  If you decide to punch someone, that means you're willing to hit them.  If you shoot someone, that means you're willing to pull the trigger.  You have your explicit opinion down pat... it's surprising that you still don't understand the implicit implications.

For that analogy to matter you have to relate it to my actual arguement. It is surpising that you keep thinking that you can say whatever you want and pretend it is meaningful and that anyone who doesn't 'get it' is just lacking the ability to comprehend your self proclaimed genius.

Meanwhile you have twice completely ignored my chess analogy. If you don't understand it, I can explain it further.  I am more inclined to believe that you do understand it and are avoiding it deliberately.

[Moiaussi]

tjzsf wrote...

So, Moiaussi, you will criticize me stating that "save the council" is the rational choice/better decision/[pick your synonym here], and at the same time criticize someone else for saying that "focus on Sovereign" was the better choice.

Pick one and stick to it instead of falling back upon the cop-out of "wait until ME3".

My own arguements are still based on estimates. If Sovereign could have been one-shotted, or the Geth attacking the DA distracted using less firepower than engaging them directly, saving the DA is not neccessarily the best choice.

You are insisting that there is a rational arguement for only one side, namely saving the Council. There is a rational arguement for not saving the DA too. Which arguement is better is a judgement call.

The premise of this thread is the opposite of yours, namely the premise that the renegade decision is the only logical decision, so I am arguing that the alternative is also logical.

Note that I also maintain that there should be a renegade version of the 'save the DA' command, namely 'engage the Geth while they are distracted' or some such. My arguements for saving the DA are from a renegade basis, not a paragon basis. Any benefits from saving the Council or crew are incidental to the primary arguement for saving the DA.

Modifié par Moiaussi, 20 juin 2011 - 08:19 .

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

There are no formal combat lines. The DA has no screening ships, it is under direct attack and thus in peril. The immediate threat to the Geth attacking the DA was the DA. If there was any other threat able to bear on them it wasn't sufficient to pry them off the by that time disabled DA.

There was a general line of ships, 'line' in this case being an analogous naval formation and not a literal line. You see them around the Destiny Ascension, both before and after the choice.

Second, that's not how a combat line works. Not being able to screen the Destiny Ascension itself doesn't mean or imply that the Geth were not engaged with the line as a whole, or that the Geth would be free to move regardless.

When the Alliance come in to save the DA, Geth break away from the DA to shoot back. If there were Council ships trying to save the DA, why weren't the Geth reacting to them as they did with the Alliance fleet and thus already committed?

Why wouldn't the Geth focus fire on the Destiny Ascension even as they take fire from other Council ships? You act like target prioritization doesn't exist.
 
There's no reason you have to disperse fire towards every single thing firing on you rather than focus on priority targets. That military strategem is, in two words, very stupid.

Alternatively, wouldn't taking out the Geth attacking the DA free up any such Council ships to help against Sovereign?

Maybe. If they were oriented right. (Which they really weren't.) 

Naval ships, not fighters here.

You seem to be assuming that there is no level of attrition that constitutes a loss. There is a reason that traditionally the smaller fleet disengages. It cannot win an attrition war. The larger fleet is always doing more damage and as the battle continues, that advantage only increases. For a smaller fleet to win, they have to have some other advantage be it technological, psychological, whatever.

The Council fleet is smaller or the DA wouldn't have been in sufficient trouble that the Alliance took losses bailing it out.

There are so many unfounded assumptions, cases of historical ignorance, and situational blindness in that paragraph that I'm reminded of your 'not succeding = incompetence' arguments.

[tjzsf]

moiaussi - i insist that while there are logical rationales for both sides, there is more for paragons, and that you do not need to know the outcome for one choice to be considered a "better decision" than the other. It is funny that your justification for saving the DA is exactly the same as my justification for doing so, and yet you still attack my reasoning for doing so.

[Moiaussi]

Dean_the_Young wrote...

There was a general line of ships, 'line' in this case being an analogous naval formation and not a literal line. You see them around the Destiny Ascension, both before and after the choice.

Second, that's not how a combat line works. Not being able to screen the Destiny Ascension itself doesn't mean or imply that the Geth were not engaged with the line as a whole, or that the Geth would be free to move regardless.

None of that changes the fact that any Geth firing on the DA will not have the DA to fire on after it blows up. If the Geth are operating as a coordinated fleet (which is not a given in a nebula) they could all target the Alliance or they could just eliminate the remains of the Council fleet that much faster and all target the Alliance soon as it is out of the way.

Also if the Geth are concentrating fire on the DA as a fleet, then saving the DA means freeing up all or most of the Council fleet, radically increasing your available firepower against Sovereign.

Why wouldn't the Geth focus fire on the Destiny Ascension even as they take fire from other Council ships? You act like target prioritization doesn't exist.
 
There's no reason you have to disperse fire towards every single thing firing on you rather than focus on priority targets. That military strategem is, in two words, very stupid.

If they are already targetted by Council ships but ignoring them to destroy the Ascension, why do they suddenly switch targets to the Alliance fleet as soon as it opens up on them? Why haven't they already done that with the Council ships you claim are already shooting at them? If the Alliance ships open up on Sovereign, why wouldn't they become the 'priority targets?'

Maybe. If they were oriented right. (Which they really weren't.) 

Naval ships, not fighters here.

Even in a Nebula they can still move. If there is no ability to maneuver, how does the Alliance fleet close with Sovereign in the first place? Or anything close with anything?

There are so many unfounded assumptions, cases of historical ignorance, and situational blindness in that paragraph that I'm reminded of your 'not succeding = incompetence' arguments.

In those historical situations the winning smaller fleet usually has some sort of advantage. Terrain, skill, tech, whatever. I acknowledged that. What is your evidence that the Council fleet is equal or stronger to the Geth fleet regardless of how they achieve it? In other words, what is your evidence that the Council are winning or could have won an attrition war?

And have you had any experience with any simulations or games involving fleet actions? With regenerating shields?

[Moiaussi]

tjzsf wrote...

moiaussi - i insist that while there are logical rationales for both sides, there is more for paragons, and that you do not need to know the outcome for one choice to be considered a "better decision" than the other. It is funny that your justification for saving the DA is exactly the same as my justification for doing so, and yet you still attack my reasoning for doing so.

I am not attacking your reason other than saying that it is a judgement call and not a sure thing. If Sovereign could be one shotted (which is possible given that the Reapers seem to avoid direct engagements as much as possible) then going directly to the engage it ignoring the Geth is the right call. So far we have no data of anyone actually firing on Sovereign (its ramming stunt notwithstanding) so we don't know yet if its sheilding has any fatal flaws.

It may also have been that keeping Sovereign under fire would have made it easier for Shepard to figure out some way to turn the Citadel's systems against Sovereign by distracting it from any attempts to hack Vigil's program.

The point is that sometimes there is insufficient data for a definate conclusion and you are working on your best guess. That doesn't invalidate everyone else's best guesses.

In short, we have a theory we consider strong, but that doesn't preclude other competing theories from also being strong.

[Dean_the_Young]

Moiaussi wrote...

None of that changes the fact that any Geth firing on the DA will not have the DA to fire on after it blows up. If the Geth are operating as a coordinated fleet (which is not a given in a nebula) they could all target the Alliance or they could just eliminate the remains of the Council fleet that much faster and all target the Alliance soon as it is out of the way.

If they could eliminate the remains of the Council fleet... which they can't. Hence the basis of the choice. The Geth aren't about to overrun the Council forces, they're about to overwhelm the Destiny Ascension in particular: once the Destiny Ascension is destroyed, they will still have to deal with the Council fleet. They will still be engaged.

Also if the Geth are concentrating fire on the DA as a fleet, then saving the DA means freeing up all or most of the Council fleet, radically increasing your available firepower against Sovereign.

No it doesn't: ship maneuverability, other geth not currently attacking the Destiny Ascension, and other matters. Large ships don't turn around on dimes.

If they are already targetted by Council ships but ignoring them to destroy the Ascension, why do they suddenly switch targets to the Alliance fleet as soon as it opens up on them?

Target prioritization. The Alliance ships are new additions, higher priority, and approaching from an angle that can be engaged.
 

Why haven't they already done that with the Council ships you claim are already shooting at them?

Because they're focusing on the Destiny Ascension first. 

If the Alliance ships open up on Sovereign, why wouldn't they become the 'priority targets?'

Because the Geth are being held down and can't maneuver due to the Council forces engaging them.

Even in a Nebula they can still move. If there is no ability to maneuver, how does the Alliance fleet close with Sovereign in the first place? Or anything close with anything?

Because the Alliance ships are approaching from the correct direction to be relevant.

In those historical situations the winning smaller fleet usually has some sort of advantage. Terrain, skill, tech, whatever. I acknowledged that. What is your evidence that the Council fleet is equal or stronger to the Geth fleet regardless of how they achieve it?

It doesn't need to be equal or stronger to the Geth: it only needs to hold them long enough for Sovereign to be dealt with.

 In other words, what is your evidence that the Council are winning or could have won an attrition war?

The impetus of the game narrative that the Council forces could hold, even if the DA would not.

And have you had any experience with any simulations or games involving fleet actions? With regenerating shields?

I'm about to have a degree in naval military history. You?