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[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

Yes but they were already engaged with the Council fleet and still are when the Alliance fleet shows up. The fact that the Geth attacked the only defending ships and continue on their current targets rather than make themselves vulnerable by suddenly breaking off. We don't even see the Alliance's entire approach towards the Citadel, since the scene cuts briefly to the bridge of the Ascension. More importantly, we have no clue in advance how the Geth will react to the Alliance fleet since they are not there yet when the decision is made. You are metagaming based on your perception of the cut scenes after the fact. Even then you are making assumptions. Any Geth ships freed up by the destruction of the Ascension or destruction of any other ships of the Citadel fleet likely don't have time to close on the Alliance before the scene cuts away. Contrary to your statements, we do not see any go from any destroyed Council ship to another Council ship while the Alliance are there.

We have no clue that the ships will even arrive in the vicinity of the Council with the choice either.  If you don't want to metagame, then it makes your point irrelevant.  Regarding your last sentence, it's just a logic based on what's actually in the game, because we don't see them going in the Citadel arms either... so they're either just sitting around (which I'd prefer not to believe) or they're engaging the other Citadel forces.  Either option however would support the notion of them following a mission that had not been changed.

There is nothing showing much of anything the Geth do after the Alliance shows up other than continue their attack on the DA.

Which ends up exploding before or around the time the Alliance begins their assualt on Sovereign.  So after that time, what are they doing?  You can speculate if you want.

Lives aren't the issue. There is more than enough population to replace crews relatively easily later. Ships are another matter. Ships equal firepower, and it isn't the DA's firepower we are talking about but that of any ships the Geth attacking the DA take out. There are enough ships committed to the DA to take out a dreadnaught tougher than any ship in the battle other than Sovereign. If we engage them while they are distracted by the DA, we get first volley and they become much less of a threat. That means drasticly reducing the risk of not being able to sustain sufficient firepower against Sovereign. It also means more surviving firepower when the Reapers show up, whether that is now or in ME3.

As you've suggested in your own post, lives are firepower in this instance... each ship lost is reduced firepower.  There's no individual people floating in space trying to do something.  And while what you're mentioning regarding the Ascension is interesting... it's completely irrelevant to stopping Sovereign in time.

Amazing that you know all these things in advance before your ships even pass through the relay. Almost like Shepard can forsee the future. The plan is obviously to head directly to the citadel. Sovereign's plan was the same but Sovy had to ram a Turian cruiser to accomplish that straight line. You figure every ship in the Alliance fleet could manage that? You are counting on blind luck.

... Did you read what I said there at all?  lol.  I'll post some of it again for you: 

"You have no idea where the relay would send you going in, but regardless of your position the plan would be to head directly for Sovereign (straight toward the arms).  This shouldn't be hard."

I'll also repost what Ashley says before you even hear about the Destiny Ascension:

"Quick!  Open the station's arms!  Maybe the fleet can take Sovereign down before he regains control of the station!"

... come on now...

You have been 'addressing my arguement' by radically changing it and addressing the straw man you set up.

 
Explain how I'm doing this and not addressing your arguement.  Finish out your accusation.

For that analogy to matter you have to relate it to my actual arguement. It is surpising that you keep thinking that you can say whatever you want and pretend it is meaningful and that anyone who doesn't 'get it' is just lacking the ability to comprehend your self proclaimed genius.

Meanwhile you have twice completely ignored my chess analogy. If you don't understand it, I can explain it further.  I am more inclined to believe that you do understand it and are avoiding it deliberately.

I will easily relate that to your arguement.  If you want to gather forces first before assaulting Sovereign, you're implicitly willing to take the time out to do that.  If you want to remove the threat of Geth around the Citadel before addressing Sovereign, then you're willing to allow Sovereign to do what he wants in the meantime.  There's no getting around this fact and it truly is what the choice boils down to if you're not metagaming.  You either feel you have time or you don't.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 20 juin 2011 - 05:36 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

We have no clue that the ships will even arrive in the vicinity of the Council with the choice either.  If you don't want to metagame, then it makes your point irrelevant.  Regarding your last sentence, it's just a logic based on what's actually in the game, because we don't see them going in the Citadel arms either... so they're either just sitting around (which I'd prefer not to believe) or they're engaging the other Citadel forces.  Either option however would support the notion of them following a mission that had not been changed.

We know the Council fleet is going to be predominently between the Citadel and Relay. We know that the Alliance ships arrive via the Relay just as the Geth ships arrived via the relay. That is more than enough information on which to make reasonable estimates of relative position.

Which ends up exploding before or around the time the Alliance begins their assualt on Sovereign.  So after that time, what are they doing?  You can speculate if you want.

Since the scene cuts immediately to the interior of the citadel, we don't know. You are claiming your speculation is somehow better than mine, but don't seem to be backing it up with anything.

As you've suggested in your own post, lives are firepower in this instance... each ship lost is reduced firepower.  There's no individual people floating in space trying to do something.  And while what you're mentioning regarding the Ascension is interesting... it's completely irrelevant to stopping Sovereign in time.

The lives on the Ascension are not firepower, at least not in terms of the immediate battle. The ascension itself isn't firepower. It is the firepower that will be lost if the Geth attacking it turn their guns on the Alliance after destroying it that matters.

... Did you read what I said there at all?  lol.  I'll post some of it again for you: 

"You have no idea where the relay would send you going in, but regardless of your position the plan would be to head directly for Sovereign (straight toward the arms).  This shouldn't be hard."

I'll also repost what Ashley says before you even hear about the Destiny Ascension:

"Quick!  Open the station's arms!  Maybe the fleet can take Sovereign down before he regains control of the station!"

... come on now...

You are assuming that a straight line course is available. As for Ashely, she is a groundling. What about her statement constitutes an actual arguement as opposed to a knee-jerk reaction to the situation from a lay person?

Explain how I'm doing this and not addressing your arguement.  Finish out your accusation.

You keep calling my choice 'saving the council' or 'saving the crew on the DA' when that isn't my motivation. You call this 'Stopping Sovereign now or later' when any later threat isn't from Sovereign, but from the main reaper fleet.

I will easily relate that to your arguement.  If you want to gather forces first before assaulting Sovereign, you're implicitly willing to take the time out to do that.  If you want to remove the threat of Geth around the Citadel before addressing Sovereign, then you're willing to allow Sovereign to do what he wants in the meantime.  There's no getting around this fact and it truly is what the choice boils down to if you're not metagaming.  You either feel you have time or you don't.

Not gather forces first, but secure them, and not all the Geth but just the ones that you know will be freed up imminently by the destruction of the DA. You know you can get a free volley at those Geth and that if you don't take it, you are risking their getting one or more free volleys at you. Unless you can one shot Sovereign, any ships you lose to them reduce your chances radically.

Consider. If it takes your full fleet 10 rounds of fire to take down Sovereign or otherwise stop, and after the 3rd or 4th round, Geth take out 10% of your original fleet strength per round, you will not have enough firepower to defeat Sovereign. You will run out of ships before you can win, especially since your firepower diminishes with every ship you lose. However if you lose 25% up front securing your fleet, you might still have a chance to win.

It isn't just a matter of having to stop Sovereign within a time limit, but also of ensuring you are able to do so.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

We know the Council fleet is going to be predominently between the Citadel and Relay. We know that the Alliance ships arrive via the Relay just as the Geth ships arrived via the relay. That is more than enough information on which to make reasonable estimates of relative position.

We also know that "between the Citadel and Relay" spans 360 degrees around the Citadel and that there are multiple relays.  We also know that they'll come through one... but we don't know where within that 360 degrees the Council is or where the Arcturus fleet will appear.  Heck, we don't even know that the Arcturus will need to even use the Relay at that point (the only time they mention the relay is for saving the Ascension).

Since the scene cuts immediately to the interior of the citadel, we don't know. You are claiming your speculation is somehow better than mine, but don't seem to be backing it up with anything.

Lol think about it... we see what the arcturus fleet is doing.. and apparently that's not fighting Geth... so where are the Geth?

The lives on the Ascension are not firepower, at least not in terms of the immediate battle. The ascension itself isn't firepower. It is the firepower that will be lost if the Geth attacking it turn their guns on the Alliance after destroying it that matters.

That also applies to the Geth fighting the other Citadel forces 360 degrees around the Citadel.  If you want to wipe out the entire Geth fleet existing in Citadel space... okay.. but that still brings us back to this important fact:

If you do not stop Sovereign in time... it's over.

You are assuming that a straight line course is available. As for Ashely, she is a groundling. What about her statement constitutes an actual arguement as opposed to a knee-jerk reaction to the situation from a lay person?

She was there.  She knows what Sovereign's doing and how Vigil's file works (as told by Vigil) and that they don't have much time.  And of course you can bob and weave around any obstacles... it doesn't change the fact that the plan of going straight to Sovereign consists of going straight to Sovereign...

Please don't just argue with me, think about what both of us are saying.

You keep calling my choice 'saving the council' or 'saving the crew on the DA' when that isn't my motivation. You call this 'Stopping Sovereign now or later' when any later threat isn't from Sovereign, but from the main reaper fleet.

Your choice and your motivation for choosing it are two different things.  You have to wrap your head around that.  And your choice is to "save the council"...  Want proof of this?



... come on now...

Not gather forces first, but secure them, and not all the Geth but just the ones that you know will be freed up imminently by the destruction of the DA. You know you can get a free volley at those Geth and that if you don't take it, you are risking their getting one or more free volleys at you. Unless you can one shot Sovereign, any ships you lose to them reduce your chances radically.

Consider. If it takes your full fleet 10 rounds of fire to take down Sovereign or otherwise stop, and after the 3rd or 4th round, Geth take out 10% of your original fleet strength per round, you will not have enough firepower to defeat Sovereign. You will run out of ships before you can win, especially since your firepower diminishes with every ship you lose. However if you lose 25% up front securing your fleet, you might still have a chance to win.

It isn't just a matter of having to stop Sovereign within a time limit, but also of ensuring you are able to do so.

Gathering, securing so you "can" Gather, it doesn't make a difference.  The point still remains that if you do not stop Sovereign in time... it's over.

If you felt you needed more time to prepare for your assualt, that's fine.. and an 'ideal' solution (who wouldn't want to take some time and prepare before stopping Sovereign?  On the extreme ideal side, you could treat it like ME2's suicide mission and go around the galaxy recruiting folks even...) but it doesn't change the issue at hand.  If Sovereign is not stopped in time... it's over.  It doesn't matter how much you prepared at that point.

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 20 juin 2011 - 09:19 .

[Moiaussi]

Mr. Gogeta34 wrote...

We also know that "between the Citadel and Relay" spans 360 degrees around the Citadel and that there are multiple relays.  We also know that they'll come through one... but we don't know where within that 360 degrees the Council is or where the Arcturus fleet will appear.  Heck, we don't even know that the Arcturus will need to even use the Relay at that point (the only time they mention the relay is for saving the Ascension).

The Arcturus fleet needs the relay. They weren't available as reinforcements before because until Shepard locks Sovereign out of the system, the entire network is unavailable. Hence 'try to get communications open' 'open the relays so we can come in' as part of the dialogue.

The Geth only came in from one of the relays. We see them come in. Even though they were caught off guard, the majority of the Citadel fleet (as evidenced by the Ascension) are pointed at the relay the Geth come in from. They knew where Illos was, expected the Geth to come from there and they seem to have done so.

The Arcturus fleet would have had the same information. Joker doesn't say anything about expecting to have trouble acquiring the DA's attackers or it being out of the way with respect to the greater goal of taking down Sovereign, and since com channels are open, he should have access to tactical information from the battle.

Again, his question is 'save the DA or hang back,' not 'Save the DA or ignore it as we sail towards Sovereign. It is Shepard and the squad members with him who characterize it otherwise.

Lol think about it... we see what the arcturus fleet is doing.. and apparently that's not fighting Geth... so where are the Geth?

Lol, saying lol makes your arguements so.... lol.

We see what the Arcturus fleet is doing for a couple seconds, but we see nothing else. Geth ships don't have infinite flght speeds in a nebula. The Geth not having time to re-target before the cut scene ends doesn't mean they are not in the process of doing so. Regardless, the Geth using foolish tactics isn't a prediction that should be relied on.

That also applies to the Geth fighting the other Citadel forces 360 degrees around the Citadel.  If you want to wipe out the entire Geth fleet existing in Citadel space... okay.. but that still brings us back to this important fact:

If you do not stop Sovereign in time... it's over.

No other Council vessels are reporting being in trouble and the Geth engaging the Ascension are going to be a larger fleet element than those engaging a cruiser or frigate. If you don't have enough ships to stop sovereign in time because Geth are on your six blowing you up as you are trying, it is just as over.

She was there.  She knows what Sovereign's doing and how Vigil's file works (as told by Vigil) and that they don't have much time.  And of course you can bob and weave around any obstacles... it doesn't change the fact that the plan of going straight to Sovereign consists of going straight to Sovereign...

Please don't just argue with me, think about what both of us are saying.

She was where? She is on the ruddy Citadel, with no view of the battlefield and didn't even get one on the way in since they arrived via the conduit. She doesn't know how Vigil's program works since she is neither an engineer nor has she examined it. All she knows is that Vigil said 'temporary.' Even if she had naval training, she still wouldn't know in advance how much force is needed to take out Sovereign or how long it will have to be sustained. 

Your choice and your motivation for choosing it are two different things.  You have to wrap your head around that.  And your choice is to "save the council"...  Want proof of this?

... come on now...

You know you are being disingenuous when you characterize it that way regardless of how the choice is stated. This is especially true since you have also referred to it as saving the crew of the DA or 'saving lives', neither of which are the literal wording of the choice you are now pretending you meant.

Gathering, securing so you "can" Gather, it doesn't make a difference.  The point still remains that if you do not stop Sovereign in time... it's over.

If you felt you needed more time to prepare for your assualt, that's fine.. and an 'ideal' solution (who wouldn't want to take some time and prepare before stopping Sovereign?  On the extreme ideal side, you could treat it like ME2's suicide mission and go around the galaxy recruiting folks even...) but it doesn't change the issue at hand.  If Sovereign is not stopped in time... it's over.  It doesn't matter how much you prepared at that point.

In ME2's suicide mission, why do you set people to hold the line? According to you, that is a very foolish thing to do. Your goal is to blow the base before they can accomplish whatever they are trying to accomplish. You don't even know what that is til you get to the final battle. For all you know they could be activating an alternative relay hacking the keepers to succeed where Soveregin failed.

You don't know that there isn't a time limit other than the game not blatantly showing you one. On Vermire, you have Kirrahe's men create a distraction. Shouldn't they be assaulting the base with you? You need to stop Saren, right? Mightn't you need every man you have to ensure you beat him? If you had beaten him on Vermire, you could have set Sovereign back considerably and might not even had the timer at the citadel. Of course without them drawing fire for you, you might have had no vermire survivors, including you.

[Mr. Gogeta34]

Moiaussi wrote...

The Arcturus fleet needs the relay. They weren't available as reinforcements before because until Shepard locks Sovereign out of the system, the entire network is unavailable. Hence 'try to get communications open' 'open the relays so we can come in' as part of the dialogue.

The Geth only came in from one of the relays. We see them come in. Even though they were caught off guard, the majority of the Citadel fleet (as evidenced by the Ascension) are pointed at the relay the Geth come in from. They knew where Illos was, expected the Geth to come from there and they seem to have done so.

The Arcturus fleet would have had the same information. Joker doesn't say anything about expecting to have trouble acquiring the DA's attackers or it being out of the way with respect to the greater goal of taking down Sovereign, and since com channels are open, he should have access to tactical information from the battle.

Again, his question is 'save the DA or hang back,' not 'Save the DA or ignore it as we sail towards Sovereign. It is Shepard and the squad members with him who characterize it otherwise.

It's uncertain whether the Geth came through just one relay as battle was happening all around Citadel space.  Naturally, Sovereign only went through one and he was accompanied by Geth ships.  And if you feel Joker needed the relay, then Joker's guessing blind and has no idea what's going on at or around the Citadel.  Your squad would know more about the situation than Joker does.

Lol, saying lol makes your arguements so.... lol.

We see what the Arcturus fleet is doing for a couple seconds, but we see nothing else. Geth ships don't have infinite flght speeds in a nebula. The Geth not having time to re-target before the cut scene ends doesn't mean they are not in the process of doing so. Regardless, the Geth using foolish tactics isn't a prediction that should be relied on.

That's more than we see the Geth doing.  If you want to talk about just what we see and hear, then lets do that.  But don't try to have it both ways where you can talk about removing the geth threat first (when you have no idea whether the effort to beat the Geth around the Ascension will even work).

No other Council vessels are reporting being in trouble and the Geth engaging the Ascension are going to be a larger fleet element than those engaging a cruiser or frigate. If you don't have enough ships to stop sovereign in time because Geth are on your six blowing you up as you are trying, it is just as over.

No other ship is trying to escape either (that we know of).  Everyone else is busy fighting and don't feel important enough to call for help.  Truthfully, the only reason I think that ship (the Ascension) was sending a distress call is because the Council was on board.  And again, your scenario assumes the Alliance does nothing in response when the goal is still stopping Sovereign in time.  If the Geth did show up and failing to stop Sovereign in time (by destroying Sovereign) was compromised, then they could always destroy Citadel tower and prevent the Reapers from being summoned by Sovereign.  Afterewards, it's easy to fall back and engage any remaining Geth ships.

I'll also respect your implicit request for me to stop loling during my rebuttals to your arguements.

She was where? She is on the ruddy Citadel, with no view of the battlefield and didn't even get one on the way in since they arrived via the conduit. She doesn't know how Vigil's program works since she is neither an engineer nor has she examined it. All she knows is that Vigil said 'temporary.' Even if she had naval training, she still wouldn't know in advance how much force is needed to take out Sovereign or how long it will have to be sustained. 

She's where Sovereign is, where Saren is, and (in my playthrough)... where Vigil was.  She knows far more about what's going on than Joker ever did.  And you're right, no one knows how tough or weak Sovereign is... the issue is stopping Sovereign from summoning the remaining Reapers in time.

You can say "But what if Sovereign's really strong?  or What if someone else tries to attack us in the meantime... I'd prefer this fight be between just us and Sovereign" as your justification to give Sovereign more time... but that'd still be what you were doing.

You know you are being disingenuous when you characterize it that way regardless of how the choice is stated. This is especially true since you have also referred to it as saving the crew of the DA or 'saving lives', neither of which are the literal wording of the choice you are now pretending you meant.

I'm characterizing it the way it actually was.  Unfortunately, you're the only one cherry-picking comments that suit your arguement and not looking at the actual choice presented to you (as evident in the actual in-game image).  I mentioned the Ascension due to Shepard's response after picking the choice... it doesn't make a difference.

In ME2's suicide mission, why do you set people to hold the line? According to you, that is a very foolish thing to do. Your goal is to blow the base before they can accomplish whatever they are trying to accomplish. You don't even know what that is til you get to the final battle. For all you know they could be activating an alternative relay hacking the keepers to succeed where Soveregin failed.

You don't know that there isn't a time limit other than the game not blatantly showing you one. On Vermire, you have Kirrahe's men create a distraction. Shouldn't they be assaulting the base with you? You need to stop Saren, right? Mightn't you need every man you have to ensure you beat him? If you had beaten him on Vermire, you could have set Sovereign back considerably and might not even had the timer at the citadel. Of course without them drawing fire for you, you might have had no vermire survivors, including you.

Not the same... the Citadel fleet is already engaging the Geth when the Arcturus fleet arrives.  Leaving a few people behind during the suicide mission is the equivalent of that. 

A more accurate example is saving your crew after the Collector abduction.  You can either go right away (they don't have much time) or you can take time to prepare for the assault.  Not going after them immediately put their lives at risk... even if your justification is "what if none of us survive in the attempt to rescue them?"

Modifié par Mr. Gogeta34, 20 juin 2011 - 11:10 .