54 réponses à ce sujet

[Jabraham002]

Who has the supreme power here, in particular about Anders' and his fate. I know Grey Wardens can conscript pretty much anyone, king or peasant, but a king expelled the wardens too. I also know that the chantry's power can supersede that of the crown. I know that the wardens are supposed to be neutral in political matters, but who wins in the fight to get Anders. The wardens' power stretches through at least "all' the humans, dwarfs, and elves, and no one can refuse their power of transcription. So does that mean that they have the supreme power in that sense?
I took Anders from the crown and the chantry (who were going to sentence him to death?), but the chantry still came after him, so does that mean that the chantry was exercising their power over the wardens, which would lower the power of conscription? Or were they breaking some kind of "law"? If so what kind of punishment could be enforced against  them or anyone that breaks this law, and who would enforce it?

[thegreateski]

The King is above both the Wardens and the Chantry.



The Wardens and the Chantry are equals.

[Daerog]

It was just one woman and her cohorts being complete idiots. Wardens are supposed to respect the government, the government is supposed to give Wardens special rights, the chantry has huge influence but everything is ultimately up to the government who does not wish to be overthrown by their citizens or other nations loyal to the chantry.

Modifié par DaerogTheDhampir, 31 mars 2010 - 02:41 .

[LadyDamodred]

The Grey Wardens have the final say. This is reaffirmed through the origin stories when Duncan can conscript you to save you from the dwarves, city guards and templars. The power isn't dependent on the crown, but it does make it easier. Alistair/Anora reaffirm the Right of Conscription, ie, backing the GW with the support of the crown. The crown can kick the GW out of the country, but they still technically have the RoC.



I think Ryloc really just wanted Anders dead. She either is unaware of or doesn't care that she no longer has a right to Anders. *shrugs* Though I do have to wonder how she thought killing Anders and the GW Commander (also maybe Queen/King/Chancellor/etc...) was going to go unpunished.

[Thor Rand Al]

I wish when she decided to try and take Ander's in his quest I could of said something about her attacking the Crown lol. She was standing right there when Alistair called me his wife. And like Lady Damodred said Ryloc just didn't give a shyt. Her hatred of Anders was so strong that she wouldn't of cared if that would of started a war. I can imagine what Alistair's remarks would of been when he found out. He never was a fan of the Templars anyways lmao

[SurelyForth]

LadyDamodred wrote...

I think Ryloc really just wanted Anders dead. She either is unaware of or doesn't care that she no longer has a right to Anders. *shrugs* Though I do have to wonder how she thought killing Anders and the GW Commander (also maybe Queen/King/Chancellor/etc...) was going to go unpunished.

Since the Chantry seems to reward the templars with the most damage (see: Cullen becoming Knight-Commander of the Tower if you side with the templars, despite his obvious PTSD and rampant crazy) I imagine that she has been encouraged to be such a zealot that things like rational, chain of command and treason are less important than her Maker-mandated duty to bring apostates (and those who "shelter" them) to justice. She also had an obvious and personal vendetta against Anders which probably just augmented her unbelievable lack of sense.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 31 mars 2010 - 02:51 .

[Jabraham002]

thegreateski wrote...

The King is above both the Wardens and the Chantry.

The Wardens and the Chantry are equals.

But Ryloc says the chantry's power supersedes that of the crown (in this instance with Anders), besides I would think that the chantry could do a holy march (I think it's called) or threaten to do one on any leader that refussed to follow a "holy" law.

[Addai]

Jabraham002 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

The King is above both the Wardens and the Chantry.

The Wardens and the Chantry are equals.

But Ryloc says the chantry's power supersedes that of the crown (in this instance with Anders), besides I would think that the chantry could do a holy march (I think it's called) or threaten to do one on any leader that refussed to follow a "holy" law.

People sometimes say things they know are being blown out their posterior.  I have no doubt the Chantry thinks it supersedes all other authority, but their ability to enforce that is pitifully limited.  In Anders' case, the Grey Wardens and the crown agreed, and the Chantry had to step back.  Rylock is a loose cannon.

[Emerald Melios]

I think she was a stalker......you know, "if I can't have you, no one will."

[Axekix]

Jabraham002 wrote...

Who has the supreme power here, in particular about Anders' and his fate.

Whoever hits the hardest.  I find most disputes in Fereldan are handled this way.

[errant_knight]

Jabraham002 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

The King is above both the Wardens and the Chantry.

The Wardens and the Chantry are equals.

But Ryloc says the chantry's power supersedes that of the crown (in this instance with Anders), besides I would think that the chantry could do a holy march (I think it's called) or threaten to do one on any leader that refussed to follow a "holy" law.

Well, the crown has no authority over Templars. We know that from the Landsmeet and the reaction to a Templar being imprisoned  and his prisoner taken from him. At the same time, the wardens have the right of conscription which trumps everyone. That's especially easy to enforce when the king is a grey warden who enjoys tweaking the Chantry. Right of conscription would be hard to enforce without the support of the crown.

Basically, Ryloc would have been correct it Alistair had spared Anders, but since it was the warden commander, she was wrong. Of course, in my playthrough, she may have been getting a mixed message of crown interference since the warden commander was also the queen.

[Jabraham002]

Axekix wrote...

Jabraham002 wrote...

Who has the supreme power here, in particular about Anders' and his fate.

Whoever hits the hardest.  I find most disputes in Fereldan are handled this way.

Hmm... nice idea but which would that be?  The chantry has their "holy march" which come from all over the world, not just Fereldan.  The wardens have... the wardens, and maybe the other races that would support them (especially if it was one of their kind in dispute.) Then there's the crown which would be all of Fereldan plus any allies. The only problem is that about 25% of each other's army belongs to the other.
So, I'm still none the wiser.     

[mousestalker]

It's a weird amalgam of what Axekix and errant_knight wrote. In theory what errant_knight wrote is what happens. In practice it may wind up in a big fight on the floor of the Landsmeet with swords and daggers drawn. What I want to know is why anyone in Ferelden ever goes anywhere unarmoured?

[Jabraham002]

errant_knight wrote...

Jabraham002 wrote...

thegreateski wrote...

The King is above both the Wardens and the Chantry.

The Wardens and the Chantry are equals.

But Ryloc says the chantry's power supersedes that of the crown (in this instance with Anders), besides I would think that the chantry could do a holy march (I think it's called) or threaten to do one on any leader that refussed to follow a "holy" law.

Well, the crown has no authority over Templars. We know that from the Landsmeet and the reaction to a Templar being imprisoned  and his prisoner taken from him. At the same time, the wardens have the right of conscription which trumps everyone. That's especially easy to enforce when the king is a grey warden who enjoys tweaking the Chantry. Right of conscription would be hard to enforce without the support of the crown.

Basically, Ryloc would have been correct it Alistair had spared Anders, but since it was the warden commander, she was wrong. Of course, in my playthrough, she may have been getting a mixed message of crown interference since the warden commander was also the queen.

But what can the wardens do if they (the chantry or the crown) say no? I mean the chantry has religious power (which is very strong at this time) with their exalted march (an extreme case but still there), the crown has political power and with their soldiers they could go to war, but the wardens…
If I, the warden commander, say that I want Anders to be a warden, and both the crown and chantry say, "NO!" what can I do? I guess the worst I could do is say that I, and my fellow wardens, won't fight the bight, or darkspawn for you?

[thegreateski]

No, they would take Anders anyway and dare the Crown and the Chantry to come and take him back.



Think of how powerful you and Alistair are. That's just two Wardens . . . what could an army of Wardens do?

[Sarah1281]

But what can the wardens do if they (the chantry or the crown) say no? I mean the chantry has religious power (which is very strong at this time) with their exalted march (an extreme case but still there), the crown has political power and with their soldiers they could go to war, but the wardens…

If I, the warden commander, say that I want Anders to be a warden, and both the crown and chantry say, "NO!" what can I do? I guess the worst I could do is say that I, and my fellow wardens, won't fight the bight, or darkspawn for you?

There was no way Alistair/Anora wasn't going to allow it. You knew that they were okay with it when they said that Anders would be going with the Templars unless you had something to say. Unless you thought they meant 'we're just let him go freely if you want us to' they were implying that they were offering you the chance to conscript him. That was a very unusual circumstances where both the ruling monarch and a high-ranking Templar happened to be around when you tried to conscript someone. Duncan showed that Warden authority trumped Chantry authority when he took Alistair and even if the Grand Cleric had gone through with her threat to arrest him (as the loading screen says: you can use the Right of Conscription on anyone but their may be consequences), he would have still been an arrested Grey Warden.

[LadyDamodred]

Ah, yeah, I meant to mention Alistair's conscription.  When you can tell the Grand Cleric to STFU, you basically have the upper hand.
Also, talking about Crown vs Chantry, if the Chantry had called an Exalted March on the dwarves, pretty sure Alistair and I would have been right there to stop them with the whole damn Ferelden army.  The Chantry is *not* going eliminate the first line of defense between humanity and the darkspawn while we're on the throne.  So I guess technically the Chantry can issue orders, but governments don't have to listen.

[Stoomkal]

My Warden *is* a Mage who was taken against the will of the Chantry... by Duncan.


The Chantry (like the Church) considers itself above *all* Kings and Queens... and the King has limited power over the Templars at all.


However, the Right of Conscription trumps that... but the Chantry are not ones who respect anything but their own rules.
 
The Templar in question is over-stepping her authority... although if the Divine had an issue with the Grey Warden's as a whole, there could be a continent wide clash...


EDIT: spelling...

Modifié par Stoomkal, 31 mars 2010 - 04:16 .

[keesio74]

That templar overstepped her bounds and deserved to be put down. The crown has the authority. And If the crown really wanted to, it can refuse the right of conscription. But that would mean the crown backing out of an age old agreement/promise so it looks bad and they usually don't

[Raiil]

The powers that each three have are of a different sort. The Wardens have a military power that is supported by Crown (and in theory by the Chantry, or at least accepted by them, though obviously this is not always the case). The Chantry have religious power: that is to say, they have very little real political power, but they have influence by the sackful since most people are Andrastians by birth and raising, and take the religion semi-seriously. The King/Crown has legal powers, and the Chantry and the Wardens both have to respect this, because they are living on the King's land. However, the king is kept in check by Chantry's influence on his citizens and to some degree, by the need of the Wardens to protect from the darkspawn. It's when the darkspawn no longer seems to be an issue that the Wardens start having problems; similarly, if the people of Ferelden stopped being Andrastians or started having serious issues with the Chantry, the church would be in some serious crap.

[IanPolaris]

The Chantry is prone for overstepping it's bounds. I am sure that Ryloc had a "rogue operation" going, but I also have no doubt she had the implicit approval of the Chantry. At least in most of my playthoughs (esp when I play a bloodmage) the Chantry gets taught in often the most brutal way possible just how far their authority goes.....and you can believe they don't like it one bit.



That said the others are right. The Divine can call all the exated marches she wants to but it won't matter much if the monarchs don't listen (and something actually like this happened with several crusades in real history). In this case (and likely with the Dwarves as well) it seems most unlikely that either the Empress Celene I or King Alistair (a former Grey Warden and either lover or friend of said 'malificar') are going to sit back and watch the Chantry destroy the front line against the darkspawn (dwarves) or elminated the most effective warden and warden commander since Galenhad (and especially not if Orlais and Fereldan want to patch up their differences which both rulers seem to want to do).



Ryloc is a complete idiot for forcing the issue.....right from the book of Wynne.



-Polaris

[Thor Rand Al]

Stoomkal wrote...

The Chantry (like the Church) considers itself above *all* Kings and Queens... and the King has limited power over the Templars at all.

You said it right there and that's the problem.  They aren't or they shouldn't be.  The only person or persons who should be above all is the ruling King or Queen.  The Chantry thinks they should rule over them and if they had their way they would.  They think their word is law and that all should abide by their rules.  They think to highly of themselves and I loved seeing Alistair/Anora put them in their place.  Especially Alistair, I know he got a kick out of it lol.

[errant_knight]

Valentia X wrote...

The powers that each three have are of a different sort. The Wardens have a military power that is supported by Crown (and in theory by the Chantry, or at least accepted by them, though obviously this is not always the case).

The Chantry have religious power: that is to say, they have very little real political power, but they have influence by the sackful since most people are Andrastians by birth and raising, and take the religion semi-seriously.

The King/Crown has legal powers, and the Chantry and the Wardens both have to respect this, because they are living on the King's land. However, the king is kept in check by Chantry's influence on his citizens and to some degree, by the need of the Wardens to protect from the darkspawn. It's when the darkspawn no longer seems to be an issue that the Wardens start having problems; similarly, if the people of Ferelden stopped being Andrastians or started having serious issues with the Chantry, the church would be in some serious crap.

The Chantry has the potential to be a military problem for the crown, as well. Alistair tells the PC that the Templars don't just deal with apostates, they're an army, no mistake about it. Rulers have to manage a balancing act, keeping the Chantry in check where they can, but not alienating them enough for the Chantry to call a religious war against them. Alistair is in a better position than most to be aware of the balance of power, having been templar, warden, and king.

[TheBlackBaron]

The Templars are more like a paramilitary force than a real army, with the equivalent numbers as well - no doubt they could manage an impressive force if they were all gathered in one area, but as it is they have to spread amongst all the chantrys, often it seems in detachments of less than a dozen.



The Exalted Marches are a problem, but it seems these would rely on the actual monarchs funding the armies necessary for such a crusade - an undisciplined peasant army with little in the way of arms and armor isn't much a of a threat to anybody except itself. And there are several examples of real-world monarchs refusing calls by the Pope for a Crusade.

[IanPolaris]

errant_knight wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

The powers that each three have are of a different sort. The Wardens have a military power that is supported by Crown (and in theory by the Chantry, or at least accepted by them, though obviously this is not always the case).

The Chantry have religious power: that is to say, they have very little real political power, but they have influence by the sackful since most people are Andrastians by birth and raising, and take the religion semi-seriously.

The King/Crown has legal powers, and the Chantry and the Wardens both have to respect this, because they are living on the King's land. However, the king is kept in check by Chantry's influence on his citizens and to some degree, by the need of the Wardens to protect from the darkspawn. It's when the darkspawn no longer seems to be an issue that the Wardens start having problems; similarly, if the people of Ferelden stopped being Andrastians or started having serious issues with the Chantry, the church would be in some serious crap.

The Chantry has the potential to be a military problem for the crown, as well. Alistair tells the PC that the Templars don't just deal with apostates, they're an army, no mistake about it. Rulers have to manage a balancing act, keeping the Chantry in check where they can, but not alienating them enough for the Chantry to call a religious war against them. Alistair is in a better position than most to be aware of the balance of power, having been templar, warden, and king.

Not to mention the fact that the Templars have been nearly destroyed (at the very least decimated) by the recent blight and it's not like you can train a bunch of new Templars quickly and get them hooked on Lyrium.

Again in my play thoughs, the Grey Warden(s) taught the Chantry in the crudest possible way just how far their authority really went (and I find it both telling and ironic that the Libetarians within the Circle of Mages are picking up on this as well).

-Polaris