54 réponses à ce sujet

[Raiil]

errant_knight wrote...

Valentia X wrote...

The powers that each three have are of a different sort. The Wardens have a military power that is supported by Crown (and in theory by the Chantry, or at least accepted by them, though obviously this is not always the case).

The Chantry have religious power: that is to say, they have very little real political power, but they have influence by the sackful since most people are Andrastians by birth and raising, and take the religion semi-seriously.

The King/Crown has legal powers, and the Chantry and the Wardens both have to respect this, because they are living on the King's land. However, the king is kept in check by Chantry's influence on his citizens and to some degree, by the need of the Wardens to protect from the darkspawn. It's when the darkspawn no longer seems to be an issue that the Wardens start having problems; similarly, if the people of Ferelden stopped being Andrastians or started having serious issues with the Chantry, the church would be in some serious crap.

The Chantry has the potential to be a military problem for the crown, as well. Alistair tells the PC that the Templars don't just deal with apostates, they're an army, no mistake about it. Rulers have to manage a balancing act, keeping the Chantry in check where they can, but not alienating them enough for the Chantry to call a religious war against them. Alistair is in a better position than most to be aware of the balance of power, having been templar, warden, and king.

Oh, I completely agree. I think what the Crown has in it's favour (speaking entirely theoretically, of course- we have no idea, demographically speaking, how many Fereldens are truly devout) is sheer manpower- the Chantry has a very specialised army but a ruler who is on good terms with their teryns and arls can call on the manpower of their personal armies, as well as any banns who may choose to follow them. That's a lot of folks. And unofficially, if the Chantry decided to invade and the ruler can get into the circle and give the mages a chance to throw over their metallic overlords, a fair few might join the fight. 


I think that, right now, the only other ace in the hole that the crown has is the fact that if the Chantry decided to pee themselves in rage and call in for an Exalted March in Ferelden, that would probably involve calling in the Orlesian chantry army and, well, I can't see even fairly devout Andrastians in Ferelden sitting down for that.

Actually, part of me wants to see that. But my pc and I would happily do the Remigold on the smouldering remains of most chantries.

[IanPolaris]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

The Exalted Marches are a problem, but it seems these would rely on the actual monarchs funding the armies necessary for such a crusade - an undisciplined peasant army with little in the way of arms and armor isn't much a of a threat to anybody except itself. And there are several examples of real-world monarchs refusing calls by the Pope for a Crusade.

Indeed most of the later crusades had monachs either not answer the Pope's call and/or had their armies refuse the Pope's orders and do their own thing (such as sacking Constantinople) instead.

-Polaris

[TheBlackBaron]

Not to mention any near-future conflicts with the Chantry - say, twenty years out from now - would probably involve God Baby/Voodoo Child, and that won't end well for them at all.

[Raiil]

TheBlackBaron wrote...

Not to mention any near-future conflicts with the Chantry - say, twenty years out from now - would probably involve God Baby/Voodoo Child, and that won't end well for them at all.

Suddenly I feel better about asking Alistair to sleep with Morrigan.

[Maria Caliban]

Jabraham002 wrote...

I took Anders from the crown and the chantry (who were going to sentence him to death?), but the chantry still came after him, so does that mean that the chantry was exercising their power over the wardens, which would lower the power of conscription? Or were they breaking some kind of "law"?

You took Anders from the Chantry with the implicit consent of the most powerful member of 'the crown.'

I think the problem here is that you're imagining this like modern government with checks and balances. The three powers here have a dynamic relationship. In Ferelden, the Chantry isn't as powerful because they supported the Orlesian occupation and because the reigning monarch considers him or herself a friend of the Wardens.

In a different place, such as Orlais, the Chantry has far more power.

[IanPolaris]

Maria Caliban wrote...

Jabraham002 wrote...

I took Anders from the crown and the chantry (who were going to sentence him to death?), but the chantry still came after him, so does that mean that the chantry was exercising their power over the wardens, which would lower the power of conscription? Or were they breaking some kind of "law"?

You took Anders from the Chantry with the implicit consent of the most powerful member of 'the crown.'

I think the problem here is that you're imagining this like modern government with checks and balances. The three powers here have a dynamic relationship. In Ferelden, the Chantry isn't as powerful because they supported the Orlesian occupation and because the reigning monarch considers him or herself a friend of the Wardens.

In a different place, such as Orlais, the Chantry has far more power.

Futhermore, some members of the Chantry (*cough* Ryloc *cough*) and even some circle mages (*cough* Wynne *cough*) think they have far more power and influence than they really do, and reality of rudely interfering with such fantasies....and often it is a last and fatal mistake (in both cases in most of my games).  I also think that the Grand Cleric would love nothing better than to kidnap (take into custody) a Fereldan Apostate Grey Warden just to "remind" the Grey Wardens of their place...and in my games that has....unfortunate.....consequences for the Chantry.

All this is especially true if the Crown with Grey Warden support just yanked the Fereldan Circle of Mages out from under Chantry oversight....and don't think the Libetarians from other Circles haven't noticed!

All told, I think the Chantry and the Divine in particular do not have the Grey Wardens in general or a certain Grey Warden in particular on their Chirstmas Card List and I'll leave it at that.

-Polaris

[rak72]

I think the crown should start dropping propaganda pamphlets about how Andraste is a dirty cheater, the Maker is an adulterer who is responsible for the blights, and how the Hero of Fereldan just save all of their butts from the Maker, In 10 yrs, we can have all of Thedus worshiping the Hero of Fereldan

[Patriciachr34]

We should all help Anders knit scarves for the High Templar Commander.



Seriously though, I think that female Templar was a serious mage hater and a bit of a rogue. I recall a recent conversation I had between Wynne and my CE about why I became a grey warden. I explained that it was because I killed a noble for abusing my friends and Wynne mentions that when the Templar's hunt down Malefecar that they often "abuse" the mages before they are killed. So it seems to me that the chantry may simply overlook the excesses of the Templars as long as it is done discreetly. This is why you meet in a "trap" in the warehouse. Once the warden commander was dead, I'm sure the Templars would have blamed it on Anders and simply scolded the Templar for not being more diligent.

[Sarah1281]

I think the crown should start dropping propaganda pamphlets about how Andraste is a dirty cheater, the Maker is an adulterer who is responsible for the blights, and how the Hero of Fereldan just save all of their butts from the Maker, In 10 yrs, we can have all of Thedus worshiping the Hero of Fereldan

They would have to be anonymous pamphlets or there would be an exalted march in not time at all, especially given that while Celene may or may not be actively planning to retake Ferelden she wouldn't ignore such a perfect opportunity. Proving that Andraste's ashes were located atop obscenely rich lyrium veins would aso go a long way towards eventually weakening the Chantry. I'm not against the Chantry, exactly, and they do do some good work they just reaally need to stop having political power as they've done nothing good with it.

[NvVanity]

Ryloc was being an idiot. Challenging Alistair/Anora's word on the matter was foolish. The consequences for killing the Hero who saved them all from the Blight and Warden Commander of Ferelden would anger many nations.



If The Chantry try to call an Exalted March that wouldn't work either. Going against the Grey Wardens instantly means Anderfels home to over a thousand grey wardens, that are hardened veterans and practically control the government would be against The Chantry. The Tevinter Imperium has Grey Wardens and does not recognize the Chantry so who do you think they're siding with? Orlais may be the Chantry super power but Orlais seems to have the 2nd most amount of Wardens which would be problematic.



Nevarra and Orlais do not have a good history so Nevarra could very well side with Ferelden on the matter. They already follow some a different version of the Chant and believe their founder was the son of the original founder of the Chantry. The Free Marches is a bunch of city states that won't have any organized forces. Rivain is not an Andrastian nation. That just leaves Antiva. Does the Chantry think they can win with the adultery nation against the rest?

[Efesell]

The consequences for killing the Hero who saved them all from the Blight and Warden Commander of Ferelden would anger many nations.

Eh, most of them probably wouldn't care. At least not enough to do anything about it.

[IanPolaris]

Indeed the Chantry's political and military influence is build on a House of Cards, and I have no doubt at all the Divine in Orlais is acutely aware of this. If the religious faith and trust of the people with regard to the Chantry wavers even a bit, it all comes crashing down....and going against the HERO OF FERELDEN would do just that.



No the Chantry has to sit back and take it, but I guarantee you that King Alistair and the Warden Commander of Ferelden (esp if a Malificar which seems to be a popular choice) are not on the Divine's list of favorite people.



I think if Ryloc did suceed in embarrassing the Wardens, the Chantry wouldn't have minded a bit. As things are, they will say that she violated her vows and went rogue.



-Polaris

[IanPolaris]

Efesell wrote...

The consequences for killing the Hero who saved them all from the Blight and Warden Commander of Ferelden would anger many nations.

Eh, most of them probably wouldn't care. At least not enough to do anything about it.

True, but sitting out (which seems likely) would destroy the Chantry's military and political reach and the Chantry can't afford that.  This is a case where sitting out hurts the Chantry.

-Polaris

[NvVanity]

Efesell wrote...

The consequences for killing the Hero who saved them all from the Blight and Warden Commander of Ferelden would anger many nations.

Eh, most of them probably wouldn't care. At least not enough to do anything about it.

Anderfels being the Warden HQ would be outraged. Then again they'd probably wonder why the Warden Commander (if imported) was still alive after killing the Archdemon.

Ferelden being saved by the Commander would definitely care.

Tevinter being the country that absolutely hates anything the Chantry does would care for the sake of destroying them.

[TheBlackBaron]

This would be a damned cool idea for a sequel - a war between Ferelden-Tevinter-Anderfels and Orlais and whatever allies they can drum up. Basically it'd be Anglo-Saxon England-Byzantine-Holy Roman Empire vs Hundred Years War France.

[Efesell]

NvVanity wrote...

Efesell wrote...

The consequences for killing the Hero who saved them all from the Blight and Warden Commander of Ferelden would anger many nations.

Eh, most of them probably wouldn't care. At least not enough to do anything about it.

Anderfels being the Warden HQ would be outraged. Then again they'd probably wonder why the Warden Commander (if imported) was still alive after killing the Archdemon.

Ferelden being saved by the Commander would definitely care.

Tevinter being the country that absolutely hates anything the Chantry does would care for the sake of destroying them.

Ferelden would probably be the only ones who may truly want to start an incident over it. For the rest of the continent I just don't think we're that important.

[Sarah1281]

Anderfels being the Warden HQ would be outraged. Then again they'd probably wonder why the Warden Commander (if imported) was still alive after killing the Archdemon.

They already wonder and have most likely been seeking answers but aren't any more successful in getting answers than Orlais was. Living to exert influence after defeating the Blight just increases the GW stock.

[IanPolaris]

Efesell wrote...

Ferelden would probably be the only ones who may truly want to start an incident over it. For the rest of the continent I just don't think we're that important.

Given that Celene I puts high stock in her wardens and given that she is apparently trying to repair relations with Ferelden, do you think even she'd commit Orlesian forces to an Exalted March because the Divine had a bad hair day over the Warden Commander of Fereldan?

Given that all the other nations in Thedas will (at best) sit on their hands, the Divine in Orlais would be faced with a situation where she called for an Exalted March and no one decided to come (and this has happened with some Popes in real history).

The Chantry right now can't afford that especially given the continued existance and intrasigance of the Imperial Chantry.

-Polaris

[Raiil]

IanPolaris wrote...

Efesell wrote...

Ferelden would probably be the only ones who may truly want to start an incident over it. For the rest of the continent I just don't think we're that important.

Given that Celene I puts high stock in her wardens and given that she is apparently trying to repair relations with Ferelden, do you think even she'd commit Orlesian forces to an Exalted March because the Divine had a bad hair day over the Warden Commander of Fereldan?

Given that all the other nations in Thedas will (at best) sit on their hands, the Divine in Orlais would be faced with a situation where she called for an Exalted March and no one decided to come (and this has happened with some Popes in real history).

The Chantry right now can't afford that especially given the continued existance and intrasigance of the Imperial Chantry.

-Polaris

I agree, particularly about the Celene part. Everyone's very zomg Celene wants to take over Ferelden because Orlais once ruled it: but IIRC when Maric was king, there was an Emperor- someone else was on the throne, and there's been no indication that Celene has any enthusiasm over trying to take over Ferelden.

I could see the Chantry trying, because (entirely in theory) if the Chantry holds true sway over the hearts of the common folk, the idea would be to try to take over with the help of the people- like what the Pope and other Catholic countries were hoping for when Elizabeth I took the throne of England. It's highly unlikely. I think the Chantry may very well try, but all it would cause is a massacre and the Chantry would be taking the brunt of it.

[Ulicus]

LadyDamodred wrote...

The Grey Wardens have the final say. This is reaffirmed through the origin stories when Duncan can conscript you to save you from the dwarves, city guards and templars. The power isn't dependent on the crown, but it does make it easier. Alistair/Anora reaffirm the Right of Conscription, ie, backing the GW with the support of the crown. The crown can kick the GW out of the country, but they still technically have the RoC.

The Right of Conscription cannot be anything but entirely dependant on the power of the authorities of whatever country the Grey Wardens are attempting to recruit in. To say it makes it "easier" is understating it when it's the only thing that makes it possible.

You could argue whether we're talking de facto or de jure, sure... but it stands to reason that the Grey Wardens can only invoke the Right of Conscription if that right is recognised by the authorities.

[LadyDamodred]

The power was ceded to the Wardens long ago, and while there are occassional blips (ie Wardens getting kicked out of Ferelden) it has remained intact. Look at it like the rights in the Constitution. They exist in and of themselves, regardless of any temporal authority. Can others take/deny them? Yes, but there are consequences to those actions. Does any country really want to ****** the Wardens off? Singular cases of the RoC being denied probably do slip through, but if there were a campaign to get rid of it, the Wardens would respond.

[Raiil]

LadyDamodred wrote...

The power was ceded to the Wardens long ago, and while there are occassional blips (ie Wardens getting kicked out of Ferelden) it has remained intact. Look at it like the rights in the Constitution. They exist in and of themselves, regardless of any temporal authority. Can others take/deny them? Yes, but there are consequences to those actions. Does any country really want to ****** the Wardens off? Singular cases of the RoC being denied probably do slip through, but if there were a campaign to get rid of it, the Wardens would respond.

There was more than a campaign in Ferelden when that one d-rocket kicked the Wardens out after Sophia Dryden went down in flames. The Right of Conscription is dependent on whether the sovereign allows them to have any power. If the Wardens want to remain at least superficially neutral, they can't march to war and take over a country over whether Conscription exists.

Put this way: Let's pretend there's another landmass off the coast of the Waking Sea, where the Wardens have never been. Alistair can't waltz into this country and start conscripting without impunity. The right does not exist there because the legal status does not exist. Or if King Alistair gets pissed at the Wardens and removes the right in Ferelden, they no longer have recourse to recruit people against their will or the will of the law.

[Efesell]

It does seem that if the King just decided to tell them where exactly they could shove their Right there isn't a whole lot the Wardens could do about it.

Especially when kicking the entire Order out apparently went unchallenged.

[LadyDamodred]

Oh, I completely understand what you're saying, and even agree to a great extent. It's sort of a catch-22 on both sides. I have probably explained myself poorly, and I apologize for that.

All of Thedas gave the GW the Right of Conscription in return for what they do. Yes, the power was granted by the individual countries, but it sort of exists in and of itself now. An indiviual country may deny it, but it wouldn't be politically expedient, especially with GW in the country. The Dryen issue is a bit different because it involved the whole order getting kicked out. However, everyone knows about the RoC, so even if GW came back without permission, I think they could still invoke the Right with most soldiers/guards/whatnot without much problem. It's a toss-up. The ability of the GW to do that, and really all the times they use the RoC, rests on their reputation. And that's what I think tips the scales in their favor. History, plus it being accepted everywhere gives the GW the upper hand, imo.

As for an unknown country, I agree. The RoC has no meaning there, and thus cannot be enforiced. Thedas is different, though. I am curious if the dwarves ever officially gave the GW the right, or if they do it simply out of respect. I am also curious how the qunari see it.

Edit:  If the GW had taken retribution on Ferelden for killing all the Ferelden Wardens, Ferelden would have fallen.  I think it was a matter of politcal expediency not to retaliate.

Modifié par LadyDamodred, 02 avril 2010 - 12:44 .

[Efesell]

I am also curious how the qunari see it.

Probably with a very stern glare ending with the Warden going "You know what nevermind."