120 réponses à ce sujet

[Carmen_Willow]

Maria Caliban wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Do you also consider Zevran and Leiliana's crimes unforgivable? Their's were committed in cold blood and for profit rather than in a state of emotional unbalance, so it could be argued that they're worse. If Sten's crime is unforgivable, logic would indicate that their crimes are also unforgivable.

Logic would do no such thing.

For one thing, as far as we know, neither Leliana or Zevran have murdered children.

(SPOILERS - MILD)

But given what we know about Leiliana's and Zevran's character and upbringing (bard and assasain no less), can we be certain they would not if given the assignment? 

And what about the slaughter of the Warden recruit who wouldn't drink the darkspawn blood?  Does anyone really make it clear to the recruits before they are recruited that "no going back," REALLY means no going back?  Sounds like some gang initiations to me....what does that make Duncan?

And the real kicker?  You save Sten, you take him along, give him insight into the thinking and tactics of human/elf/dwarf behavior and then send him back to his warring people who plan at some point to invade your nation.....whose unforgivable crime is that?

Please don't get me wrong, I love Duncan, and Zev and Leiliana, but this game isn't about heros and villains....the brilliance of DA:O is that no one is entirely "good" or "bad" in this game, including your character.

[Volourn]

Sten is a scumbag murderer. Losing one's sword - no matter hwo valuable - excuses sucha thing. And, he sin't remorseful about the actual murders. He's remorseful about 'losing control' since his people preach discipline. Dispicable.

[HoonDing]

Manslaughter =/= murder.

[Maria Caliban]

Carmen_Willow wrote...

But given what we know about Leiliana's and Zevran's character and upbringing (bard and assasain no less), can we be certain they would not if given the assignment? 

And given what we know of Sten's character and upbringing, who's to say he wouldn't rape a puppy-dog and then burn a chantry full of orphans if he was told it was for the good of the qunari?

But wait, that has nothing to do the question of if what Sten has DONE is the same as what Leliana and Zevran have DONE. The same as the rest of your post.

Modifié par Maria Caliban, 31 mars 2010 - 06:00 .

[Volourn]

Huh? That wasn't manslaughter. L0L

[CalJones]

Sten does want to atone, if you go by the conversation you have with him when you're persuading him to leave the cage. Talk to him enough and it's pretty obvious he doesn't feel good about what he did. And I have no problem with giving him a second chance, just as I'll give the same opportunity to Zevran, Leliana and, yes, Loghain as well. Same for Jowan and Avernus. As I see it, the Warden's job isn't to be judge, jury and executioner, except where darkspawn are concerned.

[Phonantiphon]

CalJones wrote...

Sten does want to atone, if you go by the conversation you have with him when you're persuading him to leave the cage. Talk to him enough and it's pretty obvious he doesn't feel good about what he did. And I have no problem with giving him a second chance, just as I'll give the same opportunity to Zevran, Leliana and, yes, Loghain as well. Same for Jowan and Avernus. As I see it, the Warden's job isn't to be judge, jury and executioner, except where darkspawn are concerned.

QFT

[Lethias]

Well in the game i "gave him another chance", and yes he want to atone, plus i usually like to recruit every available party member. Hoewer if i really wanted to roleplay, or make a similar decision in real life then of course there is no giving another chance, or forgiveness. Killing an entire family, including the childrens (only one survived who managed to hide if i recall), because they took him to their house to help him, it's clear he deserves an exectution. Explaining to the only surviving child or the relatives that: "hmm i gave him another chance, c'mon!" would be a bit ...well strange to put it that way, even during a Blight.
I usually have him at friendly approval so i had time to learn about him, but the question isn't that if hes a cool guy or something, after a crime like this there is no forgiveness. Imagine if someone would do something like this to you, or to your friends/relatives, and then you meet the same guy a year later as celebrated hero of the nation, well it's just terribly unfair.
Or if you play like: some peasent's life doesen't matter, and well let's throw some lifes in for the greater good then it's ok i guess, then hes crime is "forgivable". And again i usualy spare him, and still playing a really good "save cats from trees" char, but still it's not a decision of "saving a cool guy from the execution". This is how i see anyway

Modifié par Lethias, 31 mars 2010 - 06:30 .

[HoonDing]

Volourn wrote...

Huh? That wasn't manslaughter. L0L

It was all in the heat of passion. Hence, voluntary manslaughter.

Matlock would surely have bailed poor Sten out.

[SSH83]

/shrug.



he only killed 8. That's my rogue PC's rationale.



either i leave him there to die, or i free him and give him a chance to redeem his honor. that's my mage pc's rationale.

[Bryy_Miller]

Volourn wrote...

Sten is a scumbag murderer. Losing one's sword - no matter hwo valuable - excuses sucha thing. And, he sin't remorseful about the actual murders. He's remorseful about 'losing control' since his people preach discipline. Dispicable.

He actually is.

[CaptainZaysh]

virumor wrote...

It was all in the heat of passion. Hence, voluntary manslaughter.

Matlock would surely have bailed poor Sten out.

Wow.  Not if I were on the jury.

[Gaharia]

Well he is a muslim, as as everyone knows all muslims must be killed.... Right.

[Bryy_Miller]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

virumor wrote...

It was all in the heat of passion. Hence, voluntary manslaughter.

Matlock would surely have bailed poor Sten out.

Wow.  Not if I were on the jury.

Matlock wouldn't have you on his jury.

[Huojin]

Maria Caliban wrote...

errant_knight wrote...

Do you also consider Zevran and Leiliana's crimes unforgivable? Their's were committed in cold blood and for profit rather than in a state of emotional unbalance, so it could be argued that they're worse. If Sten's crime is unforgivable, logic would indicate that their crimes are also unforgivable.

Logic would do no such thing.

For one thing, as far as we know, neither Leliana or Zevran have murdered children.

I also assume - from what I've gotten out of Zevran's dialogue - that Zevran's choice is either do what the Crows say and kill people for money, or get killed yourself. 

Sten's choice is... not go home.

Zevran is a piece of property, Sten has free will.

I follow Sten's explanation when he gives it, but I certainly don't understand it. My brain says: "Sword is an object. Get another one". But that I guess would make as much sense to him as his explanation of what his sword means to me.

[CalJones]

Zevran, however, admits to enjoying his job and if you ask him what he wants to do now that he's free of the Crows, he still wants to be an assassin. He's not exactly penitent.

[Lethias]

Well what hes sword means to him that really doesent excuse him i think. I mean if i will lose any of my favorite item, or all my money or anything, i still won't kill the people around me (i hope:o) so this is really not an excuse. Also i think the "zevran and leliana killed people too so sten can do also" way of thinking is a bit creeepy...

Modifié par Lethias, 31 mars 2010 - 08:49 .

[HaloKT]

Bryy_Miller wrote...

He actually is.

Very. He even says how such a deed cannot be forgiven. Even though it's despicable, he isn't evil. with losing his sword, he has lost his soul. That's the reason he panicked. And he does blame no one else but himself for everything from losing the sword to killing innocent farmers.

Edit:
Have none of you even talked to Sten? The sword is not an item. It's his identity. It's what defines him in his society. Without the sword, he doesn't have a place in the qun anymore. He even calls it his soul.
And not going home? Being lost without an identity or soul in a foreign and overly strange country after losing all of your friends? I don't think that is an option..

Modifié par HaloKT, 31 mars 2010 - 08:52 .

[Huojin]

HaloKT wrote...

Bryy_Miller wrote...

He actually is.

Very. He even says how such a deed cannot be forgiven. Even though it's despicable, he isn't evil. with losing his sword, he has lost his soul. That's the reason he panicked. And he does blame no one else but himself for everything from losing the sword to killing innocent farmers.

Edit:
Have none of you even talked to Sten? The sword is not an item. It's his identity. It's what defines him in his society. Without the sword, he doesn't have a place in the qun anymore. He even calls it his soul.
And not going home? Being lost without an identity or soul in a foreign and overly strange country after losing all of your friends? I don't think that is an option..

The point about the sword is what I was trying to make. I don't understand it personally/I don't empathise, but it makes sense.

As for it not being an option - yes it is.  You/he might not like it, but it's still an option. Same way death is an option for Zevran, but I doubt many kids/teens would choose that.  I assume by the time it becomes a choice he could fathom, it's too late - he's been trained to do it without feeling and doesn't care all that much about what he does.

Modifié par Huojin, 31 mars 2010 - 09:17 .

[Emerald Melios]

Maria Caliban wrote...

CaptainZaysh wrote...

In Lothering, desperate for troops, but seriously: this guy murdered eight civilians.  Is there a rationale to freeing him beyond "we could use an extra sword"?

There's 'everyone shoudl have a chance at redemption' and 'this is too cruel a way for him to die.'

That's pretty much the only reason he is recruited into my party.

Modifié par Emerald Melios, 31 mars 2010 - 10:40 .

[SOLID_EVEREST]

In real life, I doubt any of you would recruit Sten. I mean killing children... that is not something that should go unpunished... I have no idea why you guys are so naive. Of course, if any crimal could say they want to atone and have a chance at freedom, they would.



I mean we aren't talking about hormone driven chevaliers or princes in power we are talking about little kids here... If that were your family that Sten slayed, you would want Sten do get the death penalty. I don't believe in the death penalty, and I hate judging, but Sten deserves to stay in prison for his crimes.

[ahnnajade]

Doesn't ask for forgiveness.. my character wasn't absolving him either, only, well, using him. He was doing what he could to make amends, as well.



Zev and Leliana might not have murdered children but Zev does say something about that in one dialouge.. you ask him something and he says something like 'you mean innocence? IE women and children? is anyone truly innocent?' and goes on to say something like death isnt avoidable for anyone and it wasnt on purpose but it does happen

or something.



And I'm sure I've mangled the quote entirely now.. but I remember it!

[Havokk7]

I think Andraste would argue that nothing is unforgivable.



As far as freeing Sten, I looked at it using cold pragmatism. Whatever it takes to win, is the motto of my Grey Warden. Is he useful to me? Can I control him? I don't care what he is or what he did. If we really have to deal with that then we can do it after the Blight. If we survive.



B

[Mirthadrond]

Well, in regards to recruiting them to help fight the blight.

(all of the party members)

the thing is; NONE of them are becoming Grey Wardens.



In the end they get to wander off anywhere they want, but I'm still a Grey Warden.



Their crimes are all so great, the only way to atone is to become GW's as well, since their former lives are forfeit.

But that doesn't happen on DA:o