120 réponses à ce sujet

[ejoslin]

Mirthadrond wrote...

Well, in regards to recruiting them to help fight the blight.
(all of the party members)
the thing is; NONE of them are becoming Grey Wardens.

In the end they get to wander off anywhere they want, but I'm still a Grey Warden.

Their crimes are all so great, the only way to atone is to become GW's as well, since their former lives are forfeit.
But that doesn't happen on DA:o

Yet they stuck with you, and every single one was willing to face the arch demon and die.  I think they did atone.

[robotnist]

CaptainZaysh wrote...

In Lothering, desperate for troops, but seriously: this guy murdered eight civilians.  Is there a rationale to freeing him beyond "we could use an extra sword"?

(origins and awakenings spoilers below)

thats a great point and i have thought this as well. my problem is, 1 its 'just' a game but adversely, 2 its a game i try and play close to my own ethics and morals... 

unfortunately in both origins and awakenings there are situations in which i feel that as though i would NOT allow a character to join my group, bioware does not give me enough of a reason to stand up for my beliefs and decline letting any of these following characters a chance to join me-

morrigan- an evil bish, period. from the 1st conversation shes making fun of Alistair for giving a **** that our order was betrayed and killed. and if you do ANYTHING in the ethos of altruism she scorns you... lol

Sten- killed civilians.

Velanna- killed merchants and wants to be a grey warden JUST to find her sister, not for the better of fereldan!

zeveran- andy dick meets dog the bounty hunter... (he tried to kill me but i let him join anyways...)

it just doesnt seem that bio gives us a reason to keep these characters from our group. just like gathering that box in the chasind lands for the dead husband's wife, you give it to her and get NO XP, cash or gear. why not keep it then? especially when no one in the group disapproves???

in one respect i like that shady decisions arent a simple "right or wrong" answer, but i also would like to get something for choosing to keep these evil folks out of my group...

[Thor Rand Al]

Being a Cousland can help getting Sten free if you have a high enough coercion. You can say my father was the Tyern of Highever and she'll release him to you.

[Varenus Luckmann]

CaptainZaysh wrote...
In Lothering, desperate for troops, but seriously: this guy murdered eight civilians.  Is there a rationale to freeing him beyond "we could use an extra sword"?

You know what?

Your mom is unforgivable.

[Varenus Luckmann]

Mirthadrond wrote...
Well, in regards to recruiting them to help fight the blight, all of the party members, the thing is; NONE of them are becoming Grey Wardens.

In the end they get to wander off anywhere they want, but I'm still a Grey Warden.

Their crimes are all so great, the only way to atone is to become GW's as well, since their former lives are forfeit.
But that doesn't happen in DAO

I agree. That was a major bummer in Dragon Age: Origins, actually. I was very annoyed that I couldn't put them through the Joining. It'd feel as a whole new step in character development if I could. Suddenly Zevran would have an inescapable fate. Leliana would have an adamant purpose.

The only ones I could see as having acceptable excuses for avoiding it is Wynne and Shale. Wynne probably couldn't take it, being a frail old crone. Shale is a Golem.

Sten could do it, since he already has a quest to find out what a Blight is.

[PatT2]

Sten doesn't just rot in the cage if you leave him. He gets eaten by darkspawn. I figure nobody sentient deserves that.



As for killing children, heck, I know a few children that I have wanted to kill at one time or another. A friend with 5 of them used to say "got made them cute so we wouldn't kill them" (tongue in cheek and she now has 5 lovely adult children). It's true tho.



It is a game, and since we're not turning Sten loose in civilized society, but rather, turning him loose on darkspawn or demons, why not? He's good humor too, and heck this is a game. Folks need to lighten up. I wouldn't do almost anything in any of these games in real life (like running around in armor and killing things/people). Sheesh.



It's way too hard to understand the objections to some unreal situations, when the entire thing is totally unreal. I think I'll run around with a couple huge daggers on my back and some bows and arrows and armor and see how long I can stay out on the street without the authorities getting called.



Either this is fantasy or it's reality, but assigning reality-based morals to some situations in a fantasy setting, or vice versa is a bit off-center.

[FollowTheGourd]

(If I sound too serious about this, I'm not.)
How about an option to end it for him right then and there, like that other prisoner in the cage back in Ostagar, if leaving him to be eaten by the darkspawn was somehow too cruel (and yet leaving the other refugees in Lothering wasn't, but what could you have done). Or toss him a dagger or other pointy object so he can end it himself if he so chooses.

That might sound a tad sociopathic, but I can't imagine wanting to release him even on an evil playthrough unless there was some reason I cared about beyond knowing that I can get him as a follower. I don't believe you can even know at the time what originally set him off exactly, so why would you be bucking for his release? Just because he's actually honest about his crimes?

He didn't even think he deserved saving... but it felt as if my dialogue options were trying to make up for a lack of plausible motivation by steering me towards saving him without even so much as the option of "have you ever done anything good?" or  "fine, rot for all I care." - that I recall anyway. I tried for such a response but the best I could get was a promise to look into it.

Even if the family *had* taken his sword - and his soul for all he thought - what justification is that to slaughter them all? Self defence when the deed was already done? Who wants a follower so easily panicked?

Modifié par FollowTheGourd, 01 avril 2010 - 05:21 .

[Mirthadrond]

Aye, unless I was able to actually put Sten through the joining, there is no saving him.



Even in the game, where life is cheap, he does nothing, says nothing, that gets me close to "release him" mentality.

I wish I could make him do the joining.

[PatT2]

suit yourselves. He actually has some very touching things to say to you later int he game if he likes you, and he becomes a very capable off-tank. I find Loghain far more repellant, personally. But you do what you want, it's your game.

[rwscissors702]

Here's my take on Sten.



Me: What are you?

Sten: Are you blind or stupid?

Me: Okay, so what are you doing in that cage?

Sten: I hate my life and I'm waiting for the Darkspawn to fix that.

Me: Hmm, okay... good luck with that.

[CaptainZaysh]

Varenus Luckmann wrote...

You know what?

Your mom is unforgivable.

Touché, sir, touché.

[Fishy]

Yendi wrote...

Most of my characters have Leilanas attitude tovards criminals that everybody deserves a second chance and with that reasoning Morrigan would be far worse since she feels no regret and encourages new crimes. However I don't use Sten anyway since he comitted the unforgivable crime of not being able to get more than one specialization.

Until someone kill all of your family because of a sword ..

Yendi - You killed MY FAMILY!!!
Bob the Murderer - I  lost my sword
Yendi - Oh i see . Your culture and all .. i forgive you
Bob the murderer - Amen

From my perspective all i see from Sten it's

I'm more important than any of you and my sword represent myself.I was mad and sad and rage consumed me so i killed everyone because i'm a big fat looser.

So after i killed everyone i felt better but i know what i did was wrong but my life was forfeit anyway because i lost my sword and my soul . So i waited to get captured and  eventually killed.

But now .. I see humm .. free me and i will redeem myself by killing darkspawn but i will attack you at the first occasion i feel you're a weak leader and probably kill myself from the highest mountain of greece before Athena will save me and i will become the new god of war.

Hmm wait..

Modifié par Suprez30, 01 avril 2010 - 12:34 .

[Envor44]

I would take Sten along with me, just wait until you know him more.



It was totally worth it.

[HaloKT]

Suprez30 wrote...


Until someone kill all of your family because of a sword ..

Yendi - You killed MY FAMILY!!!
Bob the Murderer - I  lost my sword
Yendi - Oh i see . Your culture and all .. i forgive you
Bob the murderer - Amen

Except he didn't kill my family, so while it's horrible, I'm not as emotionally involved. And his sentence isn't being in a cage. Everyone in Lothering already knew they had to move on soon. His sentence was to be left there for the darkspawn to feed on. In a way, the sentence is even crueler than his crimes. So it's not just leaving him in prison. That prison will be his demise when the darkspawn come to eat him or feed him to their broodmothers-in-training. That is something you just don't do. 

From my perspective all i see from Sten it's

I'm more important than any of you and my sword represent myself.I was mad and sad and rage consumed me so i killed everyone because i'm a big fat looser.

So after i killed everyone i felt better but i know what i did was wrong but my life was forfeit anyway because i lost my sword and my soul . So i waited to get captured and  eventually killed.

He didn't feel better. He actually felt worse for what he did, which is why he was letting the guards capture him, so justice can be done to him. In his view, not only did he lose his soul, but also his honour by murdering the family. In his view, he is lost without any hope of righting what he has done wrong. An attitude you don't get in the other party members.

But now .. I see humm .. free me and i will redeem myself by killing darkspawn but i will attack you at the first occasion i feel you're a weak leader and probably kill myself from the highest mountain of greece before Athena will save me and i will become the new god of war.

Hmm wait..

When does Sten attack you? He never attacked me once.

[IanPolaris]

I think originally your companions in DAO were supposed to become Grey Wardens but that part got cut out sometime in developement.



-Polaris

[Sabriana]

@ HaloKT
Depending on your approval, Sten will question the PC's devotion to her/his task, and if a persuade check fails, he will attack trying to take over leadership. It can be avoided if Sten is not taken to Haven.

Modifié par Sabriana, 01 avril 2010 - 01:14 .

[Huojin]

Sabriana wrote...

@ HaloKT
Depending on your approval, Sten will question the PC's devotion to her/his task, and if a persuade check fails, he will attack trying to take over leadership. It can be avoided if Sten is not taken to Haven.

But you get +approval if you beat him up XD

[epeeist]

Even in real-world contemporary societies, there are deals made like immunity from prosecution (even for murderers) and/or lighter sentences in exchange for testimony against someone else ('the end justifies the means"). In WW2 U.S. a gangster was released from prison in exchange for using his influence with the dockworkers to increase security against sabotage (he was deported, but the government upheld the deal in terms of not reimprisoning him). Some jurisdictions accept temporary insanity as a defence (most accept insanity, some accept temporary insanity) which seems to match what's here, especially since he waited for days for arrest and did not resist. Plus, he was in the cage with no food or water, which many would consider cruel (as the chantry head recognized, that perhaps it would have been kinder just to execute him).



Plus, at that point in the game one has just learned that Gray Wardens are outlaws, which reinforces the other practical arguments in this thread (beggars can't be choosers). Especially depending upon one's character's origin the PC may have committed offenses normally leading to execution (dwarf commoner, dwarf noble may have committed deliberate fratricide depending upon how you play it, city elf committed murder under law [Vaughan not a threat, no self-defence or necessity argument unlike the guards one killed] however justified, mage may have deliberately helped Jowan despite not knowing he was a blood mage, to escape) - most of those are presented in-game as being the sorts of things one is executed for. So judging Sten as unforgivable would for those characters arguably be hypocritical.

[Sabriana]

Huojin wrote...

Sabriana wrote...

@ HaloKT
Depending on your approval, Sten will question the PC's devotion to her/his task, and if a persuade check fails, he will attack trying to take over leadership. It can be avoided if Sten is not taken to Haven.

But you get +approval if you beat him up XD

Or talk him out of it. Love the "It'll never see it coming" line

As far as Sten goes, he did wait to get arrested, he did express remorse, and all three companions spoke in his favor. My PC has a country to save, a dragon to slay, and an army to build. Beggars can't be choosers, and she has other people, plus a faithful hound to keep an eye on Sten, until she can be sure about his intentions.

She needs all the help she can get, morals and ethics can wait until after the Blight is defeated. Because guess what? If the archdemon wins, there will be no "after". Never. Ever.

[Mlai00]

All of the self-righteous blather only applies if you're playing the HN origin. If you're coming from 1 of the other origins, you'd care a little less or a LOT less that he killed some human peasants.



The world doesn't revolve around your little pet Cousland.

[AntiChri5]

Are people forgetting how dangerous fighting in a war is?



The first time i recruited him my attitrude was "Killed eight people with his bare hands and is willing to die for my cause? Your in."



An unstoppable disposable soldier can be very, very, usefull.



Sten will never forgive himself for what he did. Take him to the gauntlet and he says there can be no excusing what he did.



I find taking him far more morally acceptable than taking Zev, and to a lesser extent, Lelianna.

[Sabriana]

AntiChri5 wrote...

<snip>

I find taking him far more morally acceptable than taking Zev, and to a lesser extent, Lelianna.

I'm not going to say a word about that, because it's not the place for it. No, not a word.
Your opinion here is most certainly not mine, and we'll just leave it at that. Because this is a Sten thread, after all.

Other than that, the tired cliche of "Difficult times allow for drastic measures" definitely applies. The PC simply doesn't have the luxury to refuse a willing ally. Granted, the PC doesn't know anything about the gauntlet and the fade, but he is certainly no raving lunatic, and he is a trained qunari warrior. He'll not blurt out that he has regrets, but digging deeper will reveal that. And yes, my PC will certainly take the time to quiz such an interesting prospect a bit further than simply saying "hello, how are you".

[AntiChri5]

I have nothing against Lelianna or Zev, but their past cannot be ignored.

Lelliana is one of my favourite companions.

Modifié par AntiChri5, 01 avril 2010 - 04:39 .

[Sabriana]

AntiChri5 wrote...

I have nothing against Lelianna or Zev, but their past cannot be ignored.

Lelliana is one of my favourite companions.

Well, as it's easy to figure out, Zevran is my very favorite. Their pasts are different, in that one could chose, the other had no choices at all. But we really need to stop, or else derailment will ensue

Talking about choices, qun don't allow choices either afaik. As far as the murdered family goes, I can picture my PC telling Sten that he will have to make amends and ask the forgiveness of the survivor, or at least make sure the survivor is not wanting in anything.

However, at the moment her first priority is the survival of Ferelden and the demise of the archdemon. Everything else can be dealt with later. Assuming there is a "later."

[thegreateski]

I would like to point out that we have all murdered an entire village or at least the majority of it in our games.



Oh and we also killed that group of hungry and desperate villagers on our way out of Lothering.