323 réponses à ce sujet

[Lilisia]

Some people are not happy with it being an option though. Instead they want us to NOT have the option to get it, even though we want it, enjoy it and have fun playing it, cause we are ruining their game for them.

Go figure 

[Wholetyouinhere]

Zem_ wrote...

When I say that if something is selling well the company is "doing it right" it is not really a pro-company viewpoint.  After all, if it is selling well then consumers as a whole are saying, "Yes, that is worth the price you are asking."

And I think consumers as a whole are saying "I love DA, and I'm going to expand my play experience should the option present itself - while taking on faith that the added content isn't a gigantic rip-off in terms of value."

I've personally recognized that DA DLC (and, in the interest of fairness, nearly all DLC) varies greatly/negatively from the base product in value. The polish and development aren't there, which is to be expected. But the longevity and price are the worst bits - save the outright gimmickry (Feastday).

All DLC toes that line of "price" vs. "value", but I think the vast majority have bolted way past the "tasteful" mark at this point. And why not? There's no real mechanism in place to discourage it - other than forum epiphanies... I wish heh.

Anyways, when a feature is "new" (as DLC is *on consoles*), there exists a window for exploitation of customer ignorance/trust. If you're looking to expand a game you thoroughly enjoy, there will be a certain affection for the producers - and a greater likelihood that you will assume quality DLC. I think EA preys on this. I think DLC relies on impulse, loyalty, and ignorance to turn the bulk of its profit. I think these are enough to keep this "feature" going strong for years and years. No amount of "consumer awareness" is going to derail this money train, IMO.

So I've personally decided that the vast majority of DLC falls into the "bilk them out of cash before they realize we're charging them for 30 dialogue options" category. As such, I will be very carefully looking before I leap from now on. Obviously, this is how people should consume in the first place. That doesn't curb my disappointment - primarily because of who is involved. I'd like to pop in any new Bioware game and happily click on the "download all" option without even the slightest worry. I can't. It sucks. It's made worse by the sensation that I have to be on my guard dealing with probably my favorite remaining developer.

It's weak.

Modifié par Wholetyouinhere, 06 avril 2010 - 11:23 .

[Phonantiphon]

I think it's a really good idea and a great way of putting out small-scale additions; BUT I think that perhaps the mechanism for it needs a little polish.

I certainly won't stop buying it though - assuming it's appropriate to what I want.

[Estelindis]

In principle, I think DLC is a great idea.

In practice, I have found Bring Down the Sky and the extra party members to be excellent.  However, I have not felt that the other DLC met the same standard. In part, this comes down to what I look for in a game: good plot, moral choices, and character interaction.

While Warden's Keep and Return to Ostagar were both good in many ways, I would have preferred a deeper and more involving story, with more decisions and character commentary.  (What was already there was largely good, even if there were some off moments - like Alistair and Wynne flirting in RtO.  Yuck!  But I wanted more of the good stuff.)

As for Feastday, I think it's just fine for what it is - some of the gifts and pranks are *hilarious* - and it's nice to see some DLC that's small enough that it wouldn't have taken a huge amount of dev time and yet also manages to give us lots of great character moments. I prefer this *infinitely* to DLC weapons and/or armour.  At the same time, though, I would not want all DLC to be like Feastday.  Definitely hoping that the next offering will be meatier.

Anyway, I think it's important for us to give Bioware our feedback so that DLC can be better in future. Hope this thread continues to be constructive.

Modifié par Estelindis, 06 avril 2010 - 01:09 .

[Zem_]

Wholetyouinhere wrote...

All DLC toes that line of "price" vs. "value", but I think the vast majority have bolted way past the "tasteful" mark at this point. And why not? There's no real mechanism in place to discourage it - other than forum epiphanies... I wish heh.

No real mechanism?  Have you never heard the old saying, "Fool me once, shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me?"  Sorry, but "Let's screw our customers repeatedly" is not a sustainable business model for a public company.  It might work fine for email scammers on the internet, but when you know who you are dealing with they can't just continue to shovel crap at you and expect to stay in business. 

Or more precisely, they can't continue to shovel content that MOST people think is crap.  YOU might think every single offering is not worth it and that's fine.  That's your opinion.  But you would believe that everyone shares your opinion and yet the company can just sell sell sell and people will simply buy it after being burned once or twice?  Sorry, but that just doesn't make sense.

Anyways, when a feature is "new" (as DLC is *on consoles*), there exists a window for exploitation of customer ignorance/trust. If you're looking to expand a game you thoroughly enjoy, there will be a certain affection for the producers - and a greater likelihood that you will assume quality DLC. I think EA preys on this. I think DLC relies on impulse, loyalty, and ignorance to turn the bulk of its profit. I think these are enough to keep this "feature" going strong for years and years. No amount of "consumer awareness" is going to derail this money train, IMO.

There are not so many customers out there for this game that they can count on new customers to replace the ones they continue to ****** off.  Therefore their strategy CANNOT be to intentionally bilk their customers of cash before they realize it, as you say.  It simply won't keep them in business for long.

[LividLindy]

Unrelated but, original poster: is your name a Mr. Show reference?

[TheMadCat]

No real mechanism?  Have you never heard the old saying, "Fool me once,
shame on you.  Fool me twice, shame on me?"  Sorry, but "Let's screw
our customers repeatedly" is not a sustainable business model for a
public company.  It might work fine for email scammers on the internet,
but when you know who you are dealing with they can't just continue to
shovel crap at you and expect to stay in business. 

Or more
precisely, they can't continue to shovel content that MOST people think
is crap.  YOU might think every single offering is not worth it and
that's fine.  That's your opinion.  But you would believe that everyone
shares your opinion and yet the company can just sell sell sell and
people will simply buy it after being burned once or twice?  Sorry, but
that just doesn't make sense.

But that's the beauty of DLC, because it deals with such small numeric values customers are much more likely to trun a blind eye on things such as quality and abo****e value. Individuals are much more likely to get offended by a poor product that had a $50 tag than a $5 tag. Ultimately this gives them the ability to get away with more than they'd be able to get away with in a $40-$50 product.

Edit: Sensor a b s o l u t e, really

Modifié par TheMadCat, 06 avril 2010 - 06:58 .

[Longasc]

DLCs could be great, but so far they were little value for little, but still too much money.



Selling this April Fools package was another micro-transaction fail, I fear they are going to infest their upcoming SW:TOR with similar things.



The future should not be gamers paying minimum amounts of money for minimum content all the time, in the end they suck out as much money as possible. It is just tricking the gamer into paying more. Because he only pays a little. Over and over and over.

[xCirdanx]

Lilisia wrote...

Some people are not happy with it being an option though. Instead they want us to NOT have the option to get it, even though we want it, enjoy it and have fun playing it, cause we are ruining their game for them.

Go figure 

Well i can understand their point. A game to me often feels incomplet without the DLC, especialy if it is something like RtO. So, i kinda feel forced to buy the additional content to get the whole experience out of the game. Which of course isn´t realy true, or better depends on how you play the game and what is important for you.

It´pretty obvious that the value of a DLC will never be in any realtion to a normal game and often it´s nothing but an attempt to get the most money for almost no work. (like new outfits...*hint*)

Unfortunaly, i also have to agree with those you said that DA:A wasn great. Ok it´s "just" an expansion, but it should have been longer in work. There are several issues with the game, also it is a bit short. It simply looks rushed out of the door as soon as possible and that is something, i guess, people are not used to from Bioware. However that´s how EA often works.

I certainly haven´t expected this and when i compare it to past expansions of their games....well, i better not go there.

Anyway, i´m curious about the new ME2 DLC, and hope it will be better.

[Zem_]

TheMadCat wrote...

But that's the beauty of DLC, because it deals with such small numeric values customers are much more likely to trun a blind eye on things such as quality and abo****e value. Individuals are much more likely to get offended by a poor product that had a $50 tag than a $5 tag. Ultimately this gives them the ability to get away with more than they'd be able to get away with in a $40-$50 product.

True but even that effect is limited.  A $2.50 price tag didn't excuse Oblivion's Horse Armor.  Oh, it still sold but among their eventual list of DLC offerings it ranks almost last in sales.  Other more expensive, but far more substantial DLCs, are a great deal more popular.  Go figure.  Customer choice at work.

Did they lose any actual money on Horse Armor?  Of course not.  But they nevertheless responded by eventually offering a better DLC content vs. price ratio and that generally continued on into Fallout's DLC.  None of them offered the same amount of gameplay per dollar as the original game, but still they did pretty well with customers.

[Cancermeat]

People didnt like automodiles of the roads when they first came out. I think its in our primal instinct to hate new technology then rely on it.

[TheMadCat]

True but even that effect is limited.  A $2.50 price tag didn't
excuse Oblivion's Horse Armor.  Oh, it still sold but among their
eventual list of DLC offerings it ranks almost last in sales.  Other
more expensive, but far more substantial DLCs, are a great deal more
popular.  Go figure.  Customer choice at work.

Did they lose any
actual money on Horse Armor?  Of course not.  But they nevertheless
responded by eventually offering a better DLC content vs. price ratio
and that generally continued on into Fallout's DLC.  None of them
offered the same amount of gameplay per dollar as the original game,
but still they did pretty well with customers.

Was it the dollar per content ratio change though or was it the philosophy shift to something that is much more appealing to the masses and thus deemed much more acceptable? Initially Bethesda and many of the original DLC distributors back in the early part of the decade relied on items and similar stuff, companies than began shifting to actual game content such as quests, new locations with actual content, ect. And even then how do we explain the rather pleasant reception (Compared to what Horse Armor got at least), of the Feastday pack which I would consider on par with what Horse Armor did, a little gimmick pack that added nothing practical to the game.

[TRSniper4]

I guess I prefer expansion packs over DLCs, and game designers are using DLC as an excuse to make fewer expansion packs. TESIII: Morrowind had two expansion packs and limited (but free) downloadable content. TESIV: Oblivion had one expansion pack and several near useless DLC's. It's not about the cost for me; it's about the amount of total available content. Two expansion packs give way more new content than an expansion pack + three DLC's.

I also dislike all the tiny online transactions required to purchase DLC's. I hate using my credit card online due to the threat of ID theft, but that's the only way to purchase this stuff. One thing I will give Bioware credit for is the fact that I never have to pay for 1000 bioware points in cases where 700 is needed. They almost always let us purchase just the right amount .

edit: DLC's are fine when they're optional, but not buying the orrery DLC for Oblivion basically would leave you with a giant, unlockable door in the Arcane University, making it less optional .  

Modifié par TRSniper4, 07 avril 2010 - 03:01 .

[CybAnt1]

Have previous DlCs been a crock? Well, I will amend my answer. Blood Dragon Armour would have been a crock if they had charged for it, as much of a crock as Horsie Armor or Custom Uniforms.



I didn't view Rto or WK as crocks; they delivered actual additional play experience that a modder could not have done. Stone Prisoner was the best value because it was free!



My opinion is that the Feastday DlC is a crock. It is something a modder could have done. I would have downloaded it for free. Sure it's amusing to play pranks on your companions and watch Dog play fetch. Grand. I will not pay $2 for it. Yes, I know $2 is only $2, but this DlC is still a crock. IT ADDS NO REAL PLAY AREA/EXPERIENCE TO THE GAME, and a modder could have done it.



This is just to point out that I actually agree with others on this thread; if future DlCs are going to be like the Feastday DlC, then the crock era for Dragon Age has begun, about up there with the Horsie Armor for Oblivion or the Custom Uniforms for Mass Effect.

[AlanC9]

TheMadCat wrote...
And even then how do we explain the rather pleasant reception (Compared to what Horse Armor got at least), of the Feastday pack which I would consider on par with what Horse Armor did, a little gimmick pack that added nothing practical to the game. 

(italics added)

You're close to seeing it. People don't need more practical stuff in the game; it's already easy enough, and if you want more overpowered items you've got the rest of the DLC for that. The Feastday stuff was just for fun.

Edit: didn't think they were worth it, myself. Didn't buy, didn't care.

Modifié par AlanC9, 07 avril 2010 - 04:01 .

[TheMadCat]

AlanC9 wrote...

TheMadCat wrote...
And even then how do we explain the rather pleasant reception (Compared to what Horse Armor got at least), of the Feastday pack which I would consider on par with what Horse Armor did, a little gimmick pack that added nothing practical to the game. 

(italics added)

You're close to seeing it. People don't need more practical stuff in the game; it's already easy enough, and if you want more overpowered items you've got the rest of the DLC for that. The Feastday stuff was just for fun.

You're off base on what I'm viewing as pratical. By pratical I'm talking about stuff that actually has a purpose to the game and it's design, things like WK, RTO, Stone Prisoner, these are all what I view as pratical because they actually add substance to the game. And really, haven't you been able to pick up from my rants that the last type of DLC I'd want to see is crap with overpowered items as it's center theme?

If people want to buy and it and enjoy it than so be it, I just find it odd that people lambasted Horse Armor but find Feastday more than acceptable even though in terms of what they deliever is almost identical.

[Noilly Prat]

I love BioWare and I've spent a lot of time recently arguing with people on message boards in defense of Awakening, which I enjoyed very much despite the bugs, and the ME2 DLC (I think the Kasumi pack is great, and while I would have preferred paying a bit less for it, it's good content for a game I love and that's cool in my book).  That said, BioWare still got -5 approval from me over the Feastday thing.  (Some might say I'm being charitable here, but I'm not one to get hung up on minor things.)

I realize it's my own fault for assuming that the Feastday gifts and pranks would trigger little dialogue scenes like the other party member specific gifts in the game.  BioWare never actually said this was the case, but I assumed it.  If the gifts pack added some amusing dialogue, it might have almost been worth the price of entry for me, but it was utterly pointless.  Shame on me for not doing my research before buying.

The fact is, DLC is highly variable in quantity and especially quality of content.  So are videogames in general, but most games have the same price, while DLC pricing seems to be shifting, with no widely accepted standards for what a new mission should cost, what a new weapon should cost, what an hour of new gameplay is worth, etc.  Maybe I'm being optimistic, but I do think that the situation will improve some in time.  It's still a fairly new concept, and new concepts in technology and entertainment often come with new kinks to work out.  Remember how crappy most games were in the 8-bit era (to say nothing of the Atari era)?

[CybAnt1]

I realize it's my own fault for assuming that the Feastday gifts and pranks would trigger little dialogue scenes like the other party member specific gifts in the game.  BioWare never actually said this was the case, but I assumed it.  If the gifts pack added some amusing dialogue, it might have almost been worth the price of entry for me, but it was utterly pointless.  Shame on me for not doing my research before buying.

I won't download this ****e, but from what I've from other ppl., it's basically a bunch of pranks that play funny animations, and then cause their approval to drop 50 points. Then the special gifts bring it back up 50 points if you want to make it up to them. 

Ummm, great. But frankly, I could use the console to do this, too. 

It's $3 (combo) for some funny prank animations. <_<

And no actual dialogue reactions.

Color me nonplussed. 

[AlanC9]

TheMadCat wrote...
You're off base on what I'm viewing as pratical. By pratical I'm talking about stuff that actually has a purpose to the game and it's design, things like WK, RTO, Stone Prisoner, these are all what I view as pratical because they actually add substance to the game. And really, haven't you been able to pick up from my rants that the last type of DLC I'd want to see is crap with overpowered items as it's center theme? 

I didn't read all your rants. So if you want to use "practical" in an idiosyncratic sense I'll just have to play catch-up.

Sure, the Feastday stuff isn't trying to be like WK et al. What of it? Considering the price point I don't think that's a warranted comparison in the first place.They're all DLCs, but they're in different categories and doing different things.

Edit: what I meant by the price point is that $3 is cheap enough to not take the transaction seriously. It's like buying popcorn at a movie theater. Sure, it's overpriced. Either you care, or you don't.

Modifié par AlanC9, 09 avril 2010 - 03:52 .

[Dallo]

I quite liked WK and RtO, and would have been happy to continue purchasing any further DLC. However, and I know this is an old and worn issue, I will never buy any more of it because of the import issues re WK gear into Awakening. It matters not that there was an immediate community fix. I didn't like Bioware's off-hand 'explanations' and position on the matter and I don't care that there were technical 'difficulties'. Bottom line, it was unethical, and they've lost my nickels and dimes.

[TheMadCat]

Damnit, thought this thread finally died. Oh well.

I didn't read all your rants. So if you want to use "practical" in an idiosyncratic sense I'll just have to play catch-up.

Sure,
the Feastday stuff isn't trying to be like WK et al. What of it?
Considering the price point I don't think that's a warranted comparison
in the first place.They're all DLCs, but they're in different
categories and doing different things.

Edit: what I meant by the
price point is that $3 is cheap enough to not take the transaction
seriously. It's like buying popcorn at a movie theater. Sure, it's
overpriced. Either you care, or you don't.

Which ultimately is part of the point I've been trying to make. Most don't, I do, sue me. Like I said DLC works great for the publishers because of the small numeric values, most people won't care that they're charging $7 when really they could charge $2. As we discussed earlier, I feel a products value should mostly be derived from it's cost to manufacture and the amount of people in your market, the nature of DLC in it's current shape is set to contradict that philosophy.

[AlanC9]

And at this point the discussion collapses from incompatible value systems.

[TheMadCat]

I thought the discussion collapsed for that very reason pages ago, but somehow we got back into it.

[Therigan]

Ya DLC is just pretty much waste of time, they charge too much money for what little content they put in.  i'd rather just have expansions...


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