25 réponses à ce sujet

[MichaelFenris]

So, The Joining is supposed to be a super secret of the wardens, right? Remember Duncan killing one of the recruits who wanted to back out in order to protect that secret, because of the potential threat leaking the details might pose to future recruitment?

Uh, why is the Seneschal of Vigil Keep administering the joining? He isn't a warden so far as I can tell. Maybe I missed something and they were just extraordinarily unclear. But it really sounds like he isn't. For example, when you ask about what the Orlesian warden's were investigating (as a warden native to fereldan) he says they didn't tell him, that the wardens kept their own counsel, or something like that. He also says at one point he knows of only one living warden in Ferelden at the moment (the player, obviously - apparently Alistair doesn't count, or he just doesn't know).

Am I missing something, or shouldn't I be giving varel a join-or-die ultimatum? <_<

[LadyKarrakaz]

You should read the codex entry concerning Varel, if I remember rightly, it explains in part while he is considered as someone that can be trusted. He stood up againt Howe and was in a cell before the Grey Wardens put him back as a Senechal. He is a local citizen, and trusted by the population. The Wardens need him for not being seen as invaders.

[rumination888]

He serves the Grey Wardens as a politician, not as a fighter. Not everyone that is a part of their organization is an actual Grey Warden. The financial advisor lady, for example, also serves the Grey Wardens.

Modifié par rumination888, 31 mars 2010 - 05:43 .

[MichaelFenris]

Serves them sure. They probably have castle cleaning staff too...

But even if we accept that he is a trusted non-warden adviser, why is he carrying out the "top secret" "I'd tell you but then I'd have to kill you" ritual of a group he isn't even a real member of?



It just seems glaringly inconsistent with the joining performed by Duncan in Origins.



--- Ok,, I see the codex on him. Yes it says he's trusted, therefore he knows about the joining... I still think it's seriously inconsistent.

[redkev]

MichaelFenris wrote...

So, The Joining is supposed to be a super secret of the wardens, right? Remember Duncan killing one of the recruits who wanted to back out in order to protect that secret, because of the potential threat leaking the details might pose to future recruitment?

Uh, why is the Seneschal of Vigil Keep administering the joining? He isn't a warden so far as I can tell. Maybe I missed something and they were just extraordinarily unclear. But it really sounds like he isn't. For example, when you ask about what the Orlesian warden's were investigating (as a warden native to fereldan) he says they didn't tell him, that the wardens kept their own counsel, or something like that. He also says at one point he knows of only one living warden in Ferelden at the moment (the player, obviously - apparently Alistair doesn't count, or he just doesn't know).

Am I missing something, or shouldn't I be giving varel a join-or-die ultimatum? <_<

I thought this too. Although I feel the Joining Ritual was trivialised in Awakening so much it is the biggest thing I am irritated by with this expansion. The Oghren one in particular was just silly, in my view. Compared to how the ritual was dealt with in Origins where it was made into a huge a huge deal, you got the feeling it was a harrowing experience. Not so with Awakenings.

[Maria Caliban]

It makes no sense, even if you read the codex. I assume the reason he does it is that the PC is the Warden-Commander and *ought* to do it, but had no voice, which would make the ritual rather strange.

[Crixt]

It's just all put together so that the Warden never has to speak. Conspiracy!

[redkev]

Maria Caliban wrote...

It makes no sense, even if you read the codex. I assume the reason he does it is that the PC is the Warden-Commander and *ought* to do it, but had no voice, which would make the ritual rather strange.

This is one of the reasons why I believe Bioware have missed an opportunity to take RPG games to next level (not supporting the US ending by being able to import an Orlesian into your previous wardens world-state the biggest reason).

I can't imagine it being that difficult to have your warden speak in a cut-scene. If they can get voice actors to say things like 'As you desire' and other things during action and combat, why couldn't Bioware get said voice actors to read a few extra lines just for the Joining?

[Phonantiphon]

redkev wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

It makes no sense, even if you read the codex. I assume the reason he does it is that the PC is the Warden-Commander and *ought* to do it, but had no voice, which would make the ritual rather strange.

This is one of the reasons why I believe Bioware have missed an opportunity to take RPG games to next level (not supporting the US ending by being able to import an Orlesian into your previous wardens world-state the biggest reason).

I can't imagine it being that difficult to have your warden speak in a cut-scene. If they can get voice actors to say things like 'As you desire' and other things during action and combat, why couldn't Bioware get said voice actors to read a few extra lines just for the Joining?

That's as may be, but based upon most of the threads in this forum, can you even imagine the complaints there would about the warden's voice?!
Bioware probably didn't do it because they just knew how much hassle they would get from people...!! 

[redkev]

bassmunkee wrote...

redkev wrote...

Maria Caliban wrote...

It makes no sense, even if you read the codex. I assume the reason he does it is that the PC is the Warden-Commander and *ought* to do it, but had no voice, which would make the ritual rather strange.

This is one of the reasons why I believe Bioware have missed an opportunity to take RPG games to next level (not supporting the US ending by being able to import an Orlesian into your previous wardens world-state the biggest reason).

I can't imagine it being that difficult to have your warden speak in a cut-scene. If they can get voice actors to say things like 'As you desire' and other things during action and combat, why couldn't Bioware get said voice actors to read a few extra lines just for the Joining?

That's as may be, but based upon most of the threads in this forum, can you even imagine the complaints there would about the warden's voice?!
Bioware probably didn't do it because they just knew how much hassle they would get from people...!! 

Haha, true!!

Though I would have loved to have heard my Sultry voiced Dalish Rogue tell someone, "From this moment forth, you are a Grey Warden". Oh, well

[yasuraka.hakkyou]

in the case of the Joining, I (probably) would have preferred that my warden actually said the lines instead of Varel. I mean, its a couple of lines, and the only thing they'd need to change would be the name of said person joining. it'd be the only couple of cutscene lines actually spoken by your warden, so people who hate it wouldn't have to put up with it much, and the others would be happy that your WC is actually doing their job, so to say.



I am one of them, that would hate mass effect style dialogue, but I think the Joining could have been much cooler with your WC speaking.

[Konane117]

MichaelFenris wrote...

So, The Joining is supposed to be a super secret of the wardens, right? Remember Duncan killing one of the recruits who wanted to back out in order to protect that secret, because of the potential threat leaking the details might pose to future recruitment?

Uh, why is the Seneschal of Vigil Keep administering the joining? He isn't a warden so far as I can tell. Maybe I missed something and they were just extraordinarily unclear. But it really sounds like he isn't. For example, when you ask about what the Orlesian warden's were investigating (as a warden native to fereldan) he says they didn't tell him, that the wardens kept their own counsel, or something like that. He also says at one point he knows of only one living warden in Ferelden at the moment (the player, obviously - apparently Alistair doesn't count, or he just doesn't know).

Am I missing something, or shouldn't I be giving varel a join-or-die ultimatum? <_<

er, no. he was referring to kristoff - the last surviving warden from orlais.

[Mycrus Ironfist]

varel says the joining ritual because the warden commander can't talk... but seriously it would be better to have somebody like allistair or loghain perform the ritual.... and i don't mind if you have a couple characters taht can't be grey warden's... in my next playthrough i'll see what happens when you say "no" to their requests to join.

[Mycrus Ironfist]

what i would have loved would be to have a character that speaks on your behalf... much like gorim your dwarf 2ndin the noble origins..

[Nerdage]

Mycrus Ironfist wrote...

what i would have loved would be to have a character that speaks on your behalf... much like gorim your dwarf 2ndin the noble origins..

It would've been good if it was a senior orlesian warden accompanying you at the start of Awakening, then it could've been them performing the ritual, but when you see people in Origins talking about the ritual is if it's common knowledge it's pretty obvious that Bioware's stumbling over it's own lore a bit to help the story move along.

[Ulicus]

Honestly, I thought I was going to hate Varel knowing about the Joining ritual, but in the end I didn't mind. Mainly because it wasn't knowledge imparted to him by my character, so it boiled down to whether or not I disagreed with the decision made by the Orlesian Wardens.

That said, I was kinda miffed that he was the one to speak the ceremonial words.  I realise that having them voiced was probably supposed to give some sort of gravity to the proceedings and make it more cinematic and whatnot... but I'd have much preferred to have had it work like any other dialog, unvoiced, with my character giving the would-be Warden the chalice.

[Mr.DriftingDreamer]

I wanted Alistar to do the first joining. He stopped by for a visit that day anyway. Why not have the king of Fereldan and Grey Warden initiate the Joining. If he wasn't around in your story you could use Logain. Or BioWare could have used that same reality warping spell they used to "undie" people and just make Alistar king, or what not.

[Ulicus]

Mr.DriftingDreamer wrote...

I wanted Alistar to do the first joining. He stopped by for a visit that day anyway. Why not have the king of Fereldan and Grey Warden initiate the Joining. If he wasn't around in your story you could use Logain. Or BioWare could have used that same reality warping spell they used to "undie" people and just make Alistar king, or what not.

Alistair/Loghain could have been dead, and enough people have kicked up a fuss about the "undying" spell (even though it's a choice) that we can guess how well that'd have gone down.

[PirateT138]

WHOA step back! You almost fell through that big ass plot whole there. You could really hurt yourself if you're not careful.

[crysischaos]

Crixt wrote...

It's just all put together so that the Warden never has to speak. Conspiracy!

Yes, I hope your character is fully voiced in DA2, the ME series made me want the PC fully voiced in future RPG's

[DOUGEYEMASTER]

simple answer is as head of the grey wardens u were ttrained to perorm the joining and you showed the senechal.

[Emerald Melios]

Maria Caliban wrote...

It makes no sense, even if you read the codex. I assume the reason he does it is that the PC is the Warden-Commander and *ought* to do it, but had no voice, which would make the ritual rather strange.

I would've thought that if you imported a Warden character that had either Alistair or Loghain remaining as a Grey Waden, they'd oversee the Joining ritual. Apparently continuity was too much to expect.....

[Astranagant]

MichaelFenris wrote...

So, The Joining is supposed to be a super secret of the wardens, right? Remember Duncan killing one of the recruits who wanted to back out in order to protect that secret, because of the potential threat leaking the details might pose to future recruitment?

Uh, why is the Seneschal of Vigil Keep administering the joining? He isn't a warden so far as I can tell. Maybe I missed something and they were just extraordinarily unclear. But it really sounds like he isn't. For example, when you ask about what the Orlesian warden's were investigating (as a warden native to fereldan) he says they didn't tell him, that the wardens kept their own counsel, or something like that. He also says at one point he knows of only one living warden in Ferelden at the moment (the player, obviously - apparently Alistair doesn't count, or he just doesn't know).

Am I missing something, or shouldn't I be giving varel a join-or-die ultimatum? <_<

Because it obviously would have been too hard to have the player do it and silently click a dialogue option.

You might also notice that the joining has wildly higher success rates in Awakening.

Modifié par Astranagant, 16 mai 2010 - 02:26 .

[Nerdage]

Ulicus wrote...

Honestly, I thought I was going to hate Varel knowing about the Joining ritual, but in the end I didn't mind. Mainly because it wasn't knowledge imparted to him by my character, so it boiled down to whether or not I disagreed with the decision made by the Orlesian Wardens.

That said, I was kinda miffed that he was the one to speak the ceremonial words.  I realise that having them voiced was probably supposed to give some sort of gravity to the proceedings and make it more cinematic and whatnot... but I'd have much preferred to have had it work like any other dialog, unvoiced, with my character giving the would-be Warden the chalice.

Gravity that disappeared when Oghren burped... He could've at least fallen over for god sake. I'd rather have seen it handled like an ordinary conversation with the pc 'saying' the words, too.

Astranagant wrote...

You might also notice that the
joining has wildly higher success rates in Awakening.

Well you only see one person die of the joining in either game. It might have made more sense to make surviving the joining a random probability (up to a maximum of so many deaths, can't have a commander with nobody to command) but I suspect I would've reloaded had anyone died, just so I don't miss out.

Modifié par nerdage, 16 mai 2010 - 04:27 .

[CelticMutt]

I don't see how this is considered a plot hole. The reason Duncan wouldn't let the recruit walk away wasn't because no non-Warden ever in the entire world can't be allowed to know the secrets. It was because A) the recruit pulled his weapon and attacked first, and the recruit was blatantly going to blab his head off about the evil evil Wardens and their unnatural ways. There's nothing in the lore that says people who are effectively trusted members of the Wardens but never do the Joining can't know.