In two of my ME2 games, I've been unable to keep the loyalty of one squad member. On one occasion, the paragon/renegade options were both grayed out during Jack and Miranda's dispute and on the other save file, I couldn't keep the loyalty of both Tali and Legion.
The first time, I accepted that I may just not have built enough paragon points. However, after destroying the collector base, I had 100% paragon and still did not meet the speech check to regain Miranda's loyalty.
On the other playthrough, I had 100% Renegade at the time of Tali and Legion's dispute but still could not select the renegade option.
This seems ridiculous to me. I understand that the amount of poitns necessary will incrase the further along in the game you are, but shouldn't a full paragon or renegade bar be enough to pass any speech check?
100% Paragon/Renegade Not Enough?
Débuté par
SVRG
, mars 31 2010 09:53
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#2
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 10:00
DragonShepard138
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I'm not sure whats goin on there. If you had 100 percent renegade, you should've been able to intimidate them. I did.
#3
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 10:01
trucoolbrees
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social.bioware.com/forum/1/topic/107/index/1197668/3
Scroll down to the Bioware rep's explanation of the persuasion system.
Scroll down to the Bioware rep's explanation of the persuasion system.
#4
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 10:06
SVRG
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I understand the scaling difficulty persuasion system of ME2. What I don't understand is being unable to use a persuasion option when my paragon or renegade is at maximum.
#5
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 10:10
ODST Steve
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It basically comes down to if you have ever made an out-of-character decision. The best way to pass all speech checks is to only make one type of decision the entire game. If you have been doing that then I really can't help you.
#6
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 10:12
trucoolbrees
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What it's saying is just because your paragon/renegade scale is full it doesn't necessarally mean you'll pass every persuasion check. Persuasion points are only one of the factors in any given check,
#7
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 10:20
Grunt420
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#8
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 10:20
swk3000
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What it comes down to is that ME2 doesn't work on points, but on percentage. Essentially, the game keeps track of every chance you've had to make a Paragon or Renegade reply. It then keeps track of how many of those options you took. For example, if you've had 50 possible Paragon responses, and you've only used 39 of them, your Paragon score is actually 78%. It doesn't matter if your Paragon bar is maxed out or not; all the game sees is that 78%. The Paragon/Renegade checks you're talking about require somewhere in the area of 80-90% in order for you to have the option of taking them.
Essentially, what's happening is that you're being punished for role-playing your Shepard to fit whatever background or mentality he or she has. If you don't literally choose every single Paragon or every single Renegade option, you'll fall behind and never be able to catch up.
Frankly, I think it's a load of bullsh*t. My Shepard is generally a good guy, but I should have the option of telling Mordin, 'You're right. I don't like it, but the Genophage was the only way.' However, that's technically a Renegade response, so choosing it will actually screw me over later on. I'm literally forced to choose between role-playing and power-gaming, and as far as I'm concerned, there should be no need to choose one or the other; you should be able to do both.
Essentially, what's happening is that you're being punished for role-playing your Shepard to fit whatever background or mentality he or she has. If you don't literally choose every single Paragon or every single Renegade option, you'll fall behind and never be able to catch up.
Frankly, I think it's a load of bullsh*t. My Shepard is generally a good guy, but I should have the option of telling Mordin, 'You're right. I don't like it, but the Genophage was the only way.' However, that's technically a Renegade response, so choosing it will actually screw me over later on. I'm literally forced to choose between role-playing and power-gaming, and as far as I'm concerned, there should be no need to choose one or the other; you should be able to do both.
#9
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 10:24
Bentenjamin
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I didn't even need to have the renegade options open to break the fight between Tali and Legion. Just take Tali's side and you keep both there loyalty.
#10
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 10:42
burncykle
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In one of my playthroughs, I didn't have enough renegade for the Tali/Legion fight, so I picked Tali's side; then, immediately after talked to legion and gave him a renegade option telling him I was lying to Tali, which has a lower persuasion requirement than the argument conversation. I got his loyalty back by telling him I lied to Tali. and Tali apparently never finds out cause I have her loyalty also. This doesn't work on Tali if you side with Legion though and you can do it with Jack after siding with Miranda, but not with Miranda.
#11
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 11:14
The Spamming Troll part 2
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well i just read that dev post and that kindof sucks. why do they force is to either be a paragon or a renegade? theres no reason to play how you want to play becasue youll be cut short later in the game because you went nuetral. and nuetral is probably the most played alignment. that is just kinda dumb. to me atleast.
i have to be 100% nice or 100% evil in order to get what i want.
....thats not roleplaying. thats alignment playing.
i have to be 100% nice or 100% evil in order to get what i want.
....thats not roleplaying. thats alignment playing.
#12
Posté 31 mars 2010 - 11:24
Aryck the One
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I think that the new Paragon/Renegade system in ME2 sucks. Removing the Charm and Intimidate talents was a mistake. Now you no longer have the option of playing as a Neutral character. They need to fix this in ME3.
#13
Posté 01 avril 2010 - 01:53
SW33TADD1CT10N
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On my first playthrough I could resolve both the Miranda/Jack and Tali/Legion fight. Afterwards I could resolve the latter but never the former. Weird thing is that I rejected Jack and somehow she still survived the suicide mission. I did a bit of thinking and figured that it had something to do with how much talking you do with a character before you gain their loyalty mission since Jack's loyalty mission is unlocked when you complete either Miranda's or Jacob's missions. Loyalty missions are unlocked in an order (eg: you can't get Legion's loyalty mission until you complete all the other ones) so maybe, just maybe, I couldn't do a Paragon/Renegade reaction simply because I never completed the first few conversations with Jack before her loyalty mission. I'm testing this theory in my current playthrough, here's hoping I'm right.
#14
Posté 01 avril 2010 - 02:01
burncykle
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You're not FORCED to play ANY particular way. You can play neutral if you want to, but just like everything else in BOTH games, that decision will haunt you, just as there are consequences to being renegade/paragon
#15
Posté 01 avril 2010 - 02:45
archurban
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how can you fill 100% paragon and renegade? even I import ME2 character to run through, it is impossible to do that. I don't know about ME1 or import it to make them 100%. but within ME2, you can't simply do that. no way. you can almost reach to 70-75% in my experience. tell if I am wrong because I just finish 10th game two days ago. I can say that I know better than what people know about this game. I don't think that there are many people finished 10 times this game yet.
#16
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 03:39
Eslyn
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Try tossing on the Death Mask or Inferno Armor. The boost it gives might be just enough to fix those situations.
#17
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 03:47
searanox
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Wow, that... is probably the dumbest thing I have ever heard.swk3000 wrote...
What it comes down to is that ME2 doesn't work on points, but on percentage. Essentially, the game keeps track of every chance you've had to make a Paragon or Renegade reply. It then keeps track of how many of those options you took. For example, if you've had 50 possible Paragon responses, and you've only used 39 of them, your Paragon score is actually 78%. It doesn't matter if your Paragon bar is maxed out or not; all the game sees is that 78%. The Paragon/Renegade checks you're talking about require somewhere in the area of 80-90% in order for you to have the option of taking them.
Hey BioWare, I have an idea for you:
At the start the game, put a binary selection screen right in front of the player. It will have two options: "mama's boy" and "jackass". This selection determines all moral decisions throughout the game, removing all need to select dialogue options or story decisions. Then shoot me in the stomach, set my corpse on fire, cut it into pieces, and stick them on pikes. It would be a more efficient system, as the outcome would be identical.
Modifié par searanox, 02 avril 2010 - 03:48 .
#18
Posté 04 avril 2010 - 11:24
NaclynE
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>
I agree. Most of the game is about how you feel.
<<SWK3000: What it comes down to is that ME2 doesn't work on points, but on percentage. Essentially, the game keeps track of every chance you've had to make a Paragon or Renegade reply. It then keeps track of how many of those options you took. For example, if you've had 50 possible Paragon responses, and you've only used 39 of them, your Paragon score is actually 78%. It doesn't matter if your Paragon bar is maxed out or not; all the game sees is that 78%. The Paragon/Renegade checks you're talking about require somewhere in the area of 80-90% in order for you to have the option of taking them.
Essentially, what's happening is that you're being punished for role-playing your Shepard to fit whatever background or mentality he or she has. If you don't literally choose every single Paragon or every single Renegade option, you'll fall behind and never be able to catch up.
Frankly, I think it's a load of bullsh*t. My Shepard is generally a good guy, but I should have the option of telling Mordin, 'You're right. I don't like it, but the Genophage was the only way.' However, that's technically a Renegade response, so choosing it will actually screw me over later on. I'm literally forced to choose between role-playing and power-gaming, and as far as I'm concerned, there should be no need to choose one or the other; you should be able to do both.>>
I agree. Some points I get + renegade when to me it seems like a decent choice to reply. also my startagey guide informed me that depending on my origins I get a added + benefit to either renegade or paragon cuz of things like spacer or ruthless. sometimes it's like I get like +14 renegade and +2 paragon for the choices I make.
>
You need to go with the "Your both right" to keep their loyalty.
>
Actually you can do it if you side with Jack. if you side with Jack their is a way to get Mirandas loyalty. Talk to her again and she is all grouchy and tells you to go back to your new found best frined. on the left are a renegade pargon choice. The renegade tells her to cut the sh** and move on. She's like loud and clear with a small fuss and you regain her loyalty. Also I talked about the aftermath of her loyalty mission after the fued and sideing with Jack which I think was the bottomline cause of regaining her loyalty mission.
so...
Jack loyalty mission->Miranda loyalty mission->side with Jack->Paragon/Renegade choice for Miranda->chat about Miranda's loyalty mission=Miranda loyal.
>
True and not true. True it is an order but Legion's loyalty mission is shortly after you get him but you need to research his geth sniper rifle.
It goes like this:
Jacob: After Horizon first thing. You choose options wondering why he was a bit mopey after the meeting with Illusive Man. Also I belive the armor upgrade is required from him. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level).
Mordin: After two or three missions after Horizon Kelly will let you know he wants to see him. Mordin will mention about Collector attack iniment and info about friend. Also his tech upgrade is required. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level).
Grunt: Krogan shotgun is required. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level).
Jack: LX chip blah blah's for Jack is required. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level).
Miranda: Scanning device is required. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level).
Zaeed: Nothing
Garrus: New ship cannons and a few missions is required. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level).
Tali: Reflectors required. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level).
Thane: Probes is reqruied. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level).
Samara: Fuel cells is required. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level). *Note* Morinth is automaticlly loyal when obtained.
Legion: Research Geth sniper rifle. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (Feel free to hit store planets to level).
>
As I mentioned earlier it depends on origions and as Eslyn suggests "Try tossing on the Death Mask or Inferno Armor. The boost it gives might be just enough to fix those situations."
I agree. Most of the game is about how you feel.
<<SWK3000: What it comes down to is that ME2 doesn't work on points, but on percentage. Essentially, the game keeps track of every chance you've had to make a Paragon or Renegade reply. It then keeps track of how many of those options you took. For example, if you've had 50 possible Paragon responses, and you've only used 39 of them, your Paragon score is actually 78%. It doesn't matter if your Paragon bar is maxed out or not; all the game sees is that 78%. The Paragon/Renegade checks you're talking about require somewhere in the area of 80-90% in order for you to have the option of taking them.
Essentially, what's happening is that you're being punished for role-playing your Shepard to fit whatever background or mentality he or she has. If you don't literally choose every single Paragon or every single Renegade option, you'll fall behind and never be able to catch up.
Frankly, I think it's a load of bullsh*t. My Shepard is generally a good guy, but I should have the option of telling Mordin, 'You're right. I don't like it, but the Genophage was the only way.' However, that's technically a Renegade response, so choosing it will actually screw me over later on. I'm literally forced to choose between role-playing and power-gaming, and as far as I'm concerned, there should be no need to choose one or the other; you should be able to do both.>>
I agree. Some points I get + renegade when to me it seems like a decent choice to reply. also my startagey guide informed me that depending on my origins I get a added + benefit to either renegade or paragon cuz of things like spacer or ruthless. sometimes it's like I get like +14 renegade and +2 paragon for the choices I make.
>
You need to go with the "Your both right" to keep their loyalty.
>
Actually you can do it if you side with Jack. if you side with Jack their is a way to get Mirandas loyalty. Talk to her again and she is all grouchy and tells you to go back to your new found best frined. on the left are a renegade pargon choice. The renegade tells her to cut the sh** and move on. She's like loud and clear with a small fuss and you regain her loyalty. Also I talked about the aftermath of her loyalty mission after the fued and sideing with Jack which I think was the bottomline cause of regaining her loyalty mission.
so...
Jack loyalty mission->Miranda loyalty mission->side with Jack->Paragon/Renegade choice for Miranda->chat about Miranda's loyalty mission=Miranda loyal.
>
True and not true. True it is an order but Legion's loyalty mission is shortly after you get him but you need to research his geth sniper rifle.
It goes like this:
Jacob: After Horizon first thing. You choose options wondering why he was a bit mopey after the meeting with Illusive Man. Also I belive the armor upgrade is required from him. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level).
Mordin: After two or three missions after Horizon Kelly will let you know he wants to see him. Mordin will mention about Collector attack iniment and info about friend. Also his tech upgrade is required. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level).
Grunt: Krogan shotgun is required. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level).
Jack: LX chip blah blah's for Jack is required. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level).
Miranda: Scanning device is required. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level).
Zaeed: Nothing
Garrus: New ship cannons and a few missions is required. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level).
Tali: Reflectors required. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level).
Thane: Probes is reqruied. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level).
Samara: Fuel cells is required. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (feel free to hit store planets to level). *Note* Morinth is automaticlly loyal when obtained.
Legion: Research Geth sniper rifle. Also needs to be used and leveled at least once or twice (Feel free to hit store planets to level).
>
As I mentioned earlier it depends on origions and as Eslyn suggests "Try tossing on the Death Mask or Inferno Armor. The boost it gives might be just enough to fix those situations."
Modifié par NaclynE, 04 avril 2010 - 11:28 .
#19
Posté 04 avril 2010 - 02:58
davidshooter
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SVRG wrote...
I understand the scaling difficulty persuasion system of ME2. What I don't understand is being unable to use a persuasion option when my paragon or renegade is at maximum.
Are you talking about regaining loyalty from Miranda/Jack after siding with one of them in the fight? Or are you talking about resolving the fight in the first place? I am unaware of anyone who has regained loyalty after siding with one or the other. There is an option but it always seems to be grayed out. I would like to know if anyone has ever regained the loyalty of the person they sided against.
I have gone into Samara's loyalty mission with less than 20% paragon and then glitched my way to 100% after which I have had no greyed out paragon options so I'm not sure the explanation that it's percentage and not points is entirely accurate - at least as far as I've seen it explained. I haven't tried to regain Jack/Miranada loyalty with 100% paragon from the glitch yet but I suspect it won't work as I have yet to see any evidence that it's even possible.
Has anyone been able to regain loyalty after the fight with either glitched or ligit paragon points?
#20
Posté 04 avril 2010 - 03:08
Xpheyel
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davidshooter wrote...
SVRG wrote...
I understand the scaling difficulty persuasion system of ME2. What I don't understand is being unable to use a persuasion option when my paragon or renegade is at maximum.
Are you talking about regaining loyalty from Miranda/Jack after siding with one of them in the fight? Or are you talking about resolving the fight in the first place? I am unaware of anyone who has regained loyalty after siding with one or the other. There is an option but it always seems to be grayed out. I would like to know if anyone has ever regained the loyalty of the person they sided against.
I have gone into Samara's loyalty mission with less than 20% paragon and then glitched my way to 100% after which I have had no greyed out paragon options so I'm not sure the explanation that it's percentage and not points is entirely accurate - at least as far as I've seen it explained. I haven't tried to regain Jack/Miranada loyalty with 100% paragon from the glitch yet but I suspect it won't work as I have yet to see any evidence that it's even possible.
Has anyone been able to regain loyalty after the fight with either glitched or ligit paragon points?
Yep. Legitimate from an import. I was able to persaude Miranda back into loyalty.
#21
Posté 04 avril 2010 - 03:15
davidshooter
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Xpheyel wrote...
davidshooter wrote...
SVRG wrote...
I understand the scaling difficulty persuasion system of ME2. What I don't understand is being unable to use a persuasion option when my paragon or renegade is at maximum.
Are you talking about regaining loyalty from Miranda/Jack after siding with one of them in the fight? Or are you talking about resolving the fight in the first place? I am unaware of anyone who has regained loyalty after siding with one or the other. There is an option but it always seems to be grayed out. I would like to know if anyone has ever regained the loyalty of the person they sided against.
I have gone into Samara's loyalty mission with less than 20% paragon and then glitched my way to 100% after which I have had no greyed out paragon options so I'm not sure the explanation that it's percentage and not points is entirely accurate - at least as far as I've seen it explained. I haven't tried to regain Jack/Miranada loyalty with 100% paragon from the glitch yet but I suspect it won't work as I have yet to see any evidence that it's even possible.
Has anyone been able to regain loyalty after the fight with either glitched or ligit paragon points?
Yep. Legitimate from an import. I was able to persaude Miranda back into loyalty.
Thanks for the info. How about Jack, anybody?
I'm going to try to regain with th glitch - see what happens.
Edit: I've just thought of something. I wonder if the Samara glitch is actually counting toward percentage as well as points. So that every time you go around on the glitch you are not only gaining points but the game is counting it as an opportunity to make a paragon response (and when you do so) raising that percentage number each time as well. That would explain why the glitch is unlocking all the paragon responses. Otherwise, based on what was said above about percentages, the samara glitch should not be making any difference.
Modifié par davidshooter, 04 avril 2010 - 03:29 .
#22
Posté 04 avril 2010 - 08:37
cxensign
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I'm curious what the highest % for these checks is now. With the passive ability and equipment to boost Paragon/Renegade scores, I would not be surprised if there were checks requiring more than 100% of available points.
(If there aren't checks requiring more than 100%, then the +100% from a maxed passive should enable you to pass all checks in the game with either choice you wanted by maximizing all the points available, in principle).
(If there aren't checks requiring more than 100%, then the +100% from a maxed passive should enable you to pass all checks in the game with either choice you wanted by maximizing all the points available, in principle).
#23
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 03:19
Gerrium
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I think it depends of how much talk you've had with any of the 2, example
Miranda/Jack
If you keep them at a neutral stage as in you dont have to much "I want to get to know you " conversations then shepard will not take sides(meaning youll have a paragon or renegade option). Aparently the mechanic is universal what you do in another situation will reflect in the future situation like this one. Those loyalty conversations you have might affect Shepards decision making in future problems,
You can see when one of your crew is getting use to you as a friend or more, you just got to watch out to not get so personal before this situations come up or youll be in a problem.
HOW TO FIX IT:
Jack/Miranda
If you had any of their 'particular' attention ,reject them from that point on, like if miranda wants you, turn her down( your not interested) go to jack, a paragon or renegade option will be aviable and Jack will be Loyal again
In the end youll get their loyalty back and lose none but youll lose any posibility of hooking up with either Miranda or Jack
Miranda/Jack
If you keep them at a neutral stage as in you dont have to much "I want to get to know you " conversations then shepard will not take sides(meaning youll have a paragon or renegade option). Aparently the mechanic is universal what you do in another situation will reflect in the future situation like this one. Those loyalty conversations you have might affect Shepards decision making in future problems,
You can see when one of your crew is getting use to you as a friend or more, you just got to watch out to not get so personal before this situations come up or youll be in a problem.
HOW TO FIX IT:
Jack/Miranda
If you had any of their 'particular' attention ,reject them from that point on, like if miranda wants you, turn her down( your not interested) go to jack, a paragon or renegade option will be aviable and Jack will be Loyal again
In the end youll get their loyalty back and lose none but youll lose any posibility of hooking up with either Miranda or Jack
#24
Posté 05 avril 2010 - 10:23
NaclynE
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Geyah! i was trying to answer most of your questions all in one post but the copying and pasteing was being a piece of carp.
Again as I mentioned about Samara: your bar can be 2 bars full and a half on paragon and renegade. When Morinth says "Say you want me, say you'll kill for me' choose the paragon or renegade option which has your shepard tell her "You made an oopsey" and Morinth goes "Wait...who are you...no...your working for that ***** aren't you. Samara steps it and fights Morinth. Morinth tells you that she can help you out as long as you kill Samara. Samara says she can still help you out as long as you do the right thing. Choose "Kill Samara" to get Morinth. Just don't choose the "I want you" choice. You'll automaticlly kill Morinth with no choice involved.
Now as I mentioned for Jack: Jack loyalty mission->Miranda loyalty mission->side with Jack->Paragon/Renegade choice for Miranda->chat about Miranda's loyalty mission=Miranda loyal.
The oppisite would apply
Miranda Loyalty Mission->Jack Loyalty mission->Side with Miranda->Paragon/Renegade choice=Jack loyal. Don't worry if she keeps telling you "**** off" every single time you chat with her, she's marked loyal.
However the natural way to obtain both is do Miranada and Jacks loyalty No matter order) then choose The upper left choice which is "Settle this after the fight" I believe where you entice a catfight after the fued with the collectors. Jack threatens Miranda while Miranda merely shrugs off the threat. Also I belive it's a paragon choice too.
Please excuse my last post. I was trying to copy roughly 10 posts and answer them all.
Again as I mentioned about Samara: your bar can be 2 bars full and a half on paragon and renegade. When Morinth says "Say you want me, say you'll kill for me' choose the paragon or renegade option which has your shepard tell her "You made an oopsey" and Morinth goes "Wait...who are you...no...your working for that ***** aren't you. Samara steps it and fights Morinth. Morinth tells you that she can help you out as long as you kill Samara. Samara says she can still help you out as long as you do the right thing. Choose "Kill Samara" to get Morinth. Just don't choose the "I want you" choice. You'll automaticlly kill Morinth with no choice involved.
Now as I mentioned for Jack: Jack loyalty mission->Miranda loyalty mission->side with Jack->Paragon/Renegade choice for Miranda->chat about Miranda's loyalty mission=Miranda loyal.
The oppisite would apply
Miranda Loyalty Mission->Jack Loyalty mission->Side with Miranda->Paragon/Renegade choice=Jack loyal. Don't worry if she keeps telling you "**** off" every single time you chat with her, she's marked loyal.
However the natural way to obtain both is do Miranada and Jacks loyalty No matter order) then choose The upper left choice which is "Settle this after the fight" I believe where you entice a catfight after the fued with the collectors. Jack threatens Miranda while Miranda merely shrugs off the threat. Also I belive it's a paragon choice too.
Please excuse my last post. I was trying to copy roughly 10 posts and answer them all.
Modifié par NaclynE, 05 avril 2010 - 10:25 .
#25
Posté 06 avril 2010 - 09:29
IndustrializedTaco
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i got the loyality of all of them and ummmm i guess it's timing i do both miranda's and jack's both and that seems to help and i don't even activate legion until after the suicide mission
