587 réponses à ce sujet

[CmdrFenix83]

Ninja O Dume wrote...

I've figured it out! CmdrFenix83 is actually a Heretic Geth that is trying to confuse us! He wants us to distrust Legion so that we inevitably forsake him and his awesome dance moves.

I'm actually someone that liked his character in-game(even if my main Shepard was suspicious), got to the forums and saw everyone's blind love for him, and moved to hate him later.  Not dissimilar to the group that just adamantly hate Tali due to that monstrosity of a thread.  I love Tali's character too, but I stay out of that thread.  With Legion, I get these annoying Legion fanboys that based their judgment of the entire Geth on how well Legion can dance or how well he works that Widow.  It got sickening enough to the point that I can't stand the character anymore. 

Though that is completely irrelevant to my position on Legion's character(even if I hate him now).  I didn't trust him on my very first playthrough, and he proved my distrust to be well placed.

[Cascadus]

Uh... no, you didn't comprehend the concept much. Each geth, each mobile platform is just one geth, that network with other platforms to gain sentience beyond the baseline. Legion is unique in that it has around 1,300 programs in it to achieve the equivalent sentience without needing to network. He's the only one that exists at the current moment.
And honestly, I don't get all these tinfoil hat conspiracies. I'll echo an earlier statement that it's entirely ridiculous the geth would construct entire bases and allow him the slaughter millions of geth, various operations that would cost ridiculous amounts of resources for some contrived hoax to convince Shepard they're good. On top of that, he allows Shepard to decide the fate of his people.
Again, spying refers to malicious intent. Legion learns his people are in danger. He should totally stay quiet and refuse to tell his people. Like you wouldn't do the same.

Modifié par Cascadus, 01 avril 2010 - 04:21 .

[Mallissin]

Kwom Masbag wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

1000 geth per humanoid platform. So, 5 billion total geth is only equivolent to 5 million humans, yes?

Pretty small population.

100 geth per humanoid platform.  Legion is unique.

But it takes 1000 geth in a platform to equal human intelligence. Hence why they made him that way.

[CmdrFenix83]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...
Right then. I think it's pretty clear that the real problem here is that you have formed unhealthy attachments to a video game.

Just gonna ignore your posts from here on out, I recommend that everyone else do the same.

In other words, you have no way to dispute my post and are attempting to save face.  Thanks for playing, Legion fanboy.

Of course, because in every forum debate we have to get to that place where we start taking it in turns telling each other that every response means we're admitting we have no argument...

... and after that we take it in turns telling each other that our opponent's logic is faulty... over and over... again and again... "you have no argument"... "why are you still talking? your logic is faulty because you are stupid...."

And it just goes on and on like this for a very long time...

My question was posed, as was the OP's.  No one has an answer. 

What justification do you have for trusting Legion implicitly?

This is the million dollar question, and no one has come up with an answer that he didn't state himself.  In fact, he has been caught red-handed spying on another crew member.  That's a huge negative against trusting him.  So what is it? 

commander from the looks of it, your two pages behind, read up and then respond. don't respond to every single post that you have since missed. Read up and do one arguement instead of thirty seperate individual arguements.

I'm actually about an hour behind as people are responding to me faster than I can type to them all.   I've already responded to every attempt to answer the question, and am continuing to do so.

[Nightwriter]

Mallissin wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I'm sorry, but my imperfect human belief really is...

If it can ask if it has a soul, it has a soul.

If only every human believed it had a soul.

What.

Athiests, agnostics, and numerous other religions or philosophies don't believe in the concept of a soul. Why should we expect a machine reaching sentience?

Edit note: Sheesh, typos galor. I wish I were a sentient AI.

Perhaps this was why I was confused. I hover somewhere between an atheist and an agnostic, and I believe in the concept of a soul.

So do all my atheist/agnostic friends. I think of the soul, not as a religious thing, but a human one.

[Ninja O Dume]

I'm so glad we can have a civil discussion without resorting to name-calling.



On my paragon Shepard, Legion seems to be trustworthy, if rather naive and unaware of societal norms.



On my renegade Shepard, Legion was sent to Cerberus because Shepard feels that it is far too dangerous to activate on the Normandy.



In real life, I see Legion as little more than a character in a universe that I enjoy role-playing in. His character is such that he can be very different things depending on how you play Shepard. As the player, I must keep what I know separate from what my character knows.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Mallissin wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Still doesn't explain why there is only two dozen of them. For that fact alone I can validate legion's story. It would be an idiotic move on soverign's part not to use geth's resources to create alot more ships. Soverign's main tactic has always been overwhelming blitz.

Billions of machines with let's say 5% are platforms. How many mobile platforms are there to build more ships? Do the math, let's say 5 billion total geth.

1000 geth per humanoid platform. So, 5 billion total geth is only equivolent to 5 million humans, yes?

Pretty small population.

Assuming you want humanoid. But how many spaceships do you think 5 million humans could make per day if they worked tireless through out? Seriously, 5 MILLION humanoid platforms that do not tire. Yeah, I am sorry, there is no reason for the geth to have only two dozen ships at the citadel battle. My case and point. I am off to bed now, good day.

[CmdrFenix83]

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Actually, NO.  I gave him the benefit of the doubt.  I activate him.  I talked to him.  I went to the Heretic Station and destroyed it.  Then he was caught spying on a crewmember.  All of the trust he might have earned was thrown away by confirming my inital suspicions.  "Tali, shoot him."

Ya know, its really hard to argue because we have two completely different Legions. Ours have different experiences, thus making them different people. Its clear that mine did nothing wrong. You can argue from what you saw that he was spying.
Neither of us is really more right about that...

If Legion was with you on the Floatilla, he would have no need to scan her omni-tool.  He saw *exactly* what was going on there and could have relayed the information immediately if that was what he wanted.  There was a *ton* of data on the Floatilla that he could have obtained.  Scanning Tali's omni-tool at that point would be redundant, as he would have every ounce of information from the Floatilla already. 

The fact that Shepard, and even Tali through her trust of Shepard, allowed Legion even *on* the Floatilla should have given him every reason *not* to spy on her, and yet he did.

[CmdrFenix83]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

applehug wrote...

So he can spy on you and Cerberus. Make
the Geth look like victims so the Qurians won't get any support in
their war against them. There are many reasons why he would want you on
his side.

Make the Geth look like victims? What are you people talking about? You've had the option to sympathize with the Geth since the first game, and it has always been clear that the Quarians preemptively attacked them.

In fact I made sure in every playthrough of ME1 to make sure and tell Tali that her people got what they deserved because they attempted to commit genocide against a sentient race.

There's really no debate here.

Wrong, you've had no choice *but* to sympathize with them when talking to Tali.  I don't get the option of telling her I agreed with their decision to deal with the threat, nor to sympathize witht he Quarians.  We're forced to say something stupid... just like the first conversation with Wrex about the Genophage.

[CmdrFenix83]

Shandepared wrote...

@EA James Madden

The fact is most viewers, readers, players will always accept as fact anything the author, director, or developer tells them. If they are told to sympathize with person A and hate person B then they will do it. No questions asked, that's just how it is. More intelligent people will analayze the narrative and draw their own conclusions as opposed to being manipulated.

I've had the impression for a long time now that the writers want us to condemn the quarians and sympathize with the geth. I think that's garbage though. It annoys me that much of the dialog in the game has my Shepard criticizing the quarians their role in the war. The geth are not deserving of any sympathy.

Well said, good sir.  ::bows::

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...



I didn't say that. I said it's *possible*. There is no evidence proving otherwise beyond the testimony of the individual in question. The base may have been abandoned by anything(could even be a lost Prothean structure. No way of knowing), with a single floor repurposed to serve the needs of Legion's mission.

I'm pretty sure the description said that it was a heavily repurposed Quarian structure. Also, you're assuming that EDI didn't do a single scan of the base's interior. If she can data-mine the Collector base, then I think she can snoop around in a disorganized Geth network. This plan still seems ridiculous and impractical, considering how easily one could see that it is a fraud.

The Collector Base, if you have Legion with you, he advocates you keeping it. Despite his earlier comments about self-determination, he suddenly swapped his position and advocates you keeping another race's data. Suspicious.

All squad mates will advocate keeping the base during the mission. Legion is not the only victim of this event.

My point is simply that there's nothing in game that gives him enough trust to overlook him spying on another crewmember. Period.

Except that Legion was never spying on Tali. He just scanned her omni tool to acquire specific data to send back to the Geth because the Quarians were preparing for war. Which is perfectly understandable, considering that this is the genocide of his entire species we're talking about. The heretic base also proves that he is trustworthy.



The problem here is that you are always trying to spin the situation to make Legion look bad. You act like he is completley oblivious to what the rest of the crew does, so that the only way he could have found out about the Alerai was if he didn't trust Tali. You claim that the heretic base was an elaborate hoax, so that it is not an indication of his loyalty. I don't always assume the worst with Legion, so I guess that's why I am capable of trusting him.

[Mallissin]

Nightwriter wrote...

Perhaps this was why I was confused. I hover somewhere between an atheist and an agnostic, and I believe in the concept of a soul.

So do all my atheist/agnostic friends. I think of the soul, not as a religious thing, but a human one.

Consciousness is probably a better word. Not religious at all. Replaced, your rule pretty much covers it.

"If it can ask if it has a consciousness, it has a consciousness."

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Actually, NO.  I gave him the benefit of the doubt.  I activate him.  I talked to him.  I went to the Heretic Station and destroyed it.  Then he was caught spying on a crewmember.  All of the trust he might have earned was thrown away by confirming my inital suspicions.  "Tali, shoot him."

Ya know, its really hard to argue because we have two completely different Legions. Ours have different experiences, thus making them different people. Its clear that mine did nothing wrong. You can argue from what you saw that he was spying.
Neither of us is really more right about that...

If Legion was with you on the Floatilla, he would have no need to scan her omni-tool.  He saw *exactly* what was going on there and could have relayed the information immediately if that was what he wanted.  There was a *ton* of data on the Floatilla that he could have obtained.  Scanning Tali's omni-tool at that point would be redundant, as he would have every ounce of information from the Floatilla already. 

The fact that Shepard, and even Tali through her trust of Shepard, allowed Legion even *on* the Floatilla should have given him every reason *not* to spy on her, and yet he did.

Actually not really, Tali may have had more infomation on the threat. Sure legion could warn his people right away, but he wouldn't have the specifics of the threat nor how it would be an threat. To be honest, I am sure if Legion had shown up on the flortilla that he would have an "armed" escort with him at all times ready to pump him full of lead if he makes does anything at all. Quarians aren't stupid enough not to keep a eye on their systems and not to have legion walking around alone.

[Cascadus]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

I'm actually someone that liked his character in-game(even if my main Shepard was suspicious), got to the forums and saw everyone's blind love for him, and moved to hate him later.  Not dissimilar to the group that just adamantly hate Tali due to that monstrosity of a thread.  I love Tali's character too, but I stay out of that thread.  With Legion, I get these annoying Legion fanboys that based their judgment of the entire Geth on how well Legion can dance or how well he works that Widow.  It got sickening enough to the point that I can't stand the character anymore. 

Actually, this is pretty ridiculous logic. I don't get how people liking Legion is grounds for hating him. If it were that simple, wouldn't you absolutely hate Tali? You say you just ignore the massive thread, but no one's forcing you to read Legion fanboy comments. No one's ruining the character for you, you're letting people ruin the character for you.

[Mallissin]

Shandepared wrote...

@EA James Madden

More intelligent people will analayze the narrative and draw their own conclusions as opposed to being manipulated.

Logically, you'd only analyze further if the author leads you to believe there is a need. Where and how have the writers lead you to believe there was something deeper to read into the situation?

[CmdrFenix83]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Legion was on the reaper trying to destroy it before Shepard even arrived.
He has helped you kill Geth.
He has risked his life to save Shepard.
No signs of hostility to Tali even when he is about to be shot by her.
I just think you are siding with the Quarians because Tali is a Quarian and racist to the Geth. Have the Krogan spied on the Turians and Salarians because of the genophage? no. 

False.  Legion was *supposedly* there trying to get intel on Reaper systems to attempt to understand this virus.  Nothing to do with destroying it.

How did he learn about this virus anyway?  It's not something the 'Heretics' would have shared, and no organic would have known.  Did Legion, in his quest for Shepard stumble onto some 'Heretic' station and hack it and find the details there?

The rest of that can easily be explained as establishing Legion's cover.  If Tali shoots him on Haestrom, then he's backed up on a satellite and the mission has failed, or he can come back and play the sympathy card to return to his cover.

You simply don't know that anything he's done is legit.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Cascadus wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

I'm actually someone that liked his character in-game(even if my main Shepard was suspicious), got to the forums and saw everyone's blind love for him, and moved to hate him later.  Not dissimilar to the group that just adamantly hate Tali due to that monstrosity of a thread.  I love Tali's character too, but I stay out of that thread.  With Legion, I get these annoying Legion fanboys that based their judgment of the entire Geth on how well Legion can dance or how well he works that Widow.  It got sickening enough to the point that I can't stand the character anymore. 

Actually, this is pretty ridiculous logic. I don't get how people liking Legion is grounds for hating him. If it were that simple, wouldn't you absolutely hate Tali? You say you just ignore the massive thread, but no one's forcing you to read Legion fanboy comments. No one's ruining the character for you, you're letting people ruin the character for you.

Also I like legion as an character, but wouldn't classify myself as an fanboy, I just see mis-conception. And we aren't basing him on how well he can dance or shoot a gun. We're giving solid examples of why he could be considered trustworthy.

[CmdrFenix83]

Internet Kraken wrote...

You think Legion would really believe that? You think he would believe that you got the tech on Haestrom, despite the fact that you just returned with it from the Alerai? You think he wouldn't be able to tell that it didn't come from the Collosus? That he wouldn't find your sudden acquistion of the tech and your refusal to tell him about the details of your mission even slighty suspicous? I mean really, this is ridiculous. Not only are you saying that Legion is completley oblivious to leverything said by every crew member, but is also incredibly gullible.

How do you know where it came from at all?  Other than 'it was on a terminal on the Alarei', we have zero idea where it came from.  Is it Geth Tech developed recently, or is it something that the Quarians adapted?  Having Tali's hand in the construction can justify and irregularities in the tech unless it was literally stripped from a Geth and brought on board.  At which point... you could easily just say 'We scanned this tech from a fallen Geth on Haestrom.' 

If Legion isn't lying through his.... flashlight... then these Heretics do exist, and it's logical to assume that they've developed tech different from the 'True Geth'.  If he's lying, then he would go scan Tali's omnitool behind her back to find out for himself... well, I guess Legion's a little spy then, isn't he?

[agentwaffle]

Its hard to root against the Quarians, but Legion showed how the Geth can be peaceful if given the chance.

[CmdrFenix83]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

applehug wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Make the Geth look like victims? What are you people talking about? You've had the option to sympathize with the Geth since the first game, and it has always been clear that the Quarians preemptively attacked them.

There's really no debate here.

Except the Galatic comunity isn't to fond of the Geth after the attack on the citadel. I would assume having people think it was an off-branch of geth that did it would amke the Geth look better.

Not everything is a conspiracy theory, is it so hard to accept that they just are? If Bioware wanted to destroy the feeling surprise of having a Geth on your team by making them bad again they'd hint at it instead of just flat out do it. That would be like if Star Trek had the Klingons be bad again for no good reason.

Even if Legion is telling the truth 100%, he's still caught as a spy and we're back to square one.  Being a spy discredits every single thing he's done.  You can claim he was justified, but I would have the same opinion if it were a batarian caught in the same situation. 

When your entire species proves to be hostile towards you, being defensive and suspicious of them is natural.  If they betray the little trust you've given them by spying on other crew members.  Why you would keep someone that's so obviously untrustworthy is beyond me.  Lazy writing?

[CmdrFenix83]

Nightwriter wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Evolution is not an abomination, they reached sentience the same way humans did from apes.

They achieved a fake imitation of sentience through having enough processing power to do so from having so many Geth networked together.  These aren't AI.  They aren't truly sentient.  It's a horrific side-effect of the neural network that resulted in malfunction.  They're imitating life, not living it.

I'm sorry, but my imperfect human belief really is...

If it can ask if it has a soul, it has a soul.

I don't believe in a soul anyway, so that's entirely irrelevant.

[Cascadus]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

False.  Legion was *supposedly* there trying to get intel on Reaper systems to attempt to understand this virus.  Nothing to do with destroying it.

How did he learn about this virus anyway?  It's not something the 'Heretics' would have shared, and no organic would have known.  Did Legion, in his quest for Shepard stumble onto some 'Heretic' station and hack it and find the details there?

You're being purposely ignorant. You ignore any evidence for Legion's loyalty and try to spin it against him using flimsy logical fallacies like 'he COULD be evil' and 'That's what he was SUPPOSEDLY doing'. There's no point having this discussion if you're purposely remain ignorant and convince yourself that Legion is anything other than some unfeeling killing machine of death.

Why would he not know about the virus? It's a pretty significant factor and if you actually paid attention to him, you'd know he didn't find this information himself. Rather, the geth did and he was sent to acquire intelligence on it. You're acting like the geth are completely oblivious and to be honest, it'd really just be a matter of acquiring a Heretic geth's data core likewise to how Tali hacked a geth's data core to get out that evidence against Saren, and considering the geth understand their technology a hell of a lot more than anyone else, it's safe to say they know how to do it without damaging the contents of the data.

It's pretty clear that they're acquiring intelligence on the virus to combat it, why else would they need it? They're hardly capable of using it on anyone else, considering computer viruses are incapable of affecting organics, surprisingly enough. And if they were doing it for some ulterior purpose, why would they later use that information to either rewrite the heretics or destroy them (a choice he let SHEPARD make). You still haven't addressed the inherent ridiculousness in the overly elaborate and hilarious hoax theory that the geth would sacrifice inordinate amount of resources and millions of geth JUST to convince Commander Shepard.

Stop saying 'could' because that's not proof of anything. Rome 'could' have avoided it's fall, North Korea 'could' succeed in nuking their neighbours, anything 'could' happen. But we don't deal with 'coulds' or 'maybes'. We deal with truth and what's happened. Plain and simple.

But I don't see the point of arguing this, because you'll either backpedal and put up a strawman or continue to go 'can you PROVE it?' which is kinda funny considering I could ask you the same questions regarding your accusations.
Honestly, I've had enough of your disingeneous assertions.

Modifié par Cascadus, 01 avril 2010 - 04:46 .

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

-snip-

I don't think there is any point in us debating this anymore. The difference between you and I is that you always assume the worst with Legion. What I see as evidence, you see as a lie. What I see as a justified action, you see as grounds for execution. We can both take the other sides evidence and twist it to favor our side of the argument. I guess there really isn't any correct side to this debate. Still, I see the reason for your perspective and will respect it, even if I don't agree with it.