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[Cascadus]

...yeah, pretty much that. Except far less wordy and more to the point.

Modifié par Cascadus, 01 avril 2010 - 04:49 .

[Mallissin]

Shandepared wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Logically, you'd only analyze further if the author leads you to believe there is a need. Where and how have the writers lead you to believe there was something deeper to read into the situation?

Wow, congratulations on completely missing the point.

And my point is that you didn't have a point. You were promoting contrarianism, which is not constructive.

[Xaijin]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Ninja O Dume wrote...

I've figured it out! CmdrFenix83 is actually a Heretic Geth that is trying to confuse us! He wants us to distrust Legion so that we inevitably forsake him and his awesome dance moves.

I'm actually someone that liked his character in-game(even if my main Shepard was suspicious), got to the forums and saw everyone's blind love for him, and moved to hate him later.  Not dissimilar to the group that just adamantly hate Tali due to that monstrosity of a thread.  I love Tali's character too, but I stay out of that thread.  With Legion, I get these annoying Legion fanboys that based their judgment of the entire Geth on how well Legion can dance or how well he works that Widow.  It got sickening enough to the point that I can't stand the character anymore. 

Though that is completely irrelevant to my position on Legion's character(even if I hate him now).  I didn't trust him on my very first playthrough, and he proved my distrust to be well placed.

...

uh huh.

The game is on YOUR system.

[CmdrFenix83]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Yet you could not, and thus you can not ASSUME someone else did not let it slip.

Then he should have come to Shepard instead of going behind the CO's back. 

I have pointed seavral things

1) Legion acts  more like a child than an adult when it comes, he is there to learn from the organics. If he was an devious bastard he would shut him self up in some place and be alone. O wait, he basically like an child running around trying to understand the beetle on the leaf and why people drink achohel and get STD's, and do other things that if from legion's perspective would be completely stupid. Huh. Not the personality I expected from a murdering geth.

What better cover for the Reapers to gain advanced knowledge of their main enemy than from someone that pretends to be childlike and thirsty for knowledge?  No, he wouldn't shut himself up, he would want to be moving around, learning, watching, observing.  Do you not understand espionage?

2) Amount of resources for herectic base and dead/converted geth, amount of geth ships at the citadel, it just doesn't add up to billions of operating geth even if only 15% have platforms, there is still plenty of workers to have built enough ships to destroy the arriving human fleet at the citadel. If soverign had full control of the geth, he would have alot more than 2 dozen ships there helping him. That infomation is from the codex and from the quarians about how many operating machines there were roughly at the start.

Geth are programs.  They are theoretical.  They exist as nothing more than code stored on disks.  Unlike true AI's, they can download themselves all over the place, because they aren't AI's.  They just make a new set of copies to occupy a new shell.  There is also no evidence that the Heretics built the station. 

Also, resources are not infinite.  They only have the systems behind the Persius Veil with which to mine.  Planets that were also mined by the Quarians throughout their exploration of those clusters.  Where are they getting all these resources and element zero deposits to make these fleets? 

Furthermore, a Geth without a mobile platform can do nothing except communicate with the others.  I suppose it could hack machinery... but you're forgetting that the Geth platforms *were* the machinery.  So unless they've built whole factories that they can operate remotely, those Geth not in platforms are doing zero physical actions.

3) Beacuse other than "spying." And Ijust imanagine I threw in the turian air qoutes here, you and cmdr are fruitlessly trying to pin prickholes in our arguments while we rip out the spine of yours. Your basically say "he's an robot, can't be trusted. That is all."

You've done no such thing, but it's cute that you think so.  I admit, I'm coming up with reasons for his actions to be taken as something more than face-value.  However, you've given zero justification for them to be taken as they are either.  The only fact either of us have to point out is the situation he's caught spying on Tali.  Which, while you and other may right this off, others of us consider this a serious offense.

To be honest, you guys are stone-walling us when we are giving you legitmate analogys and explanations and my analogy with the man and religion was plainly simple.

Reiligion opened his eyes and he changed his way. He got more infomationad thus adjusted what he knew. Geth went from machines that were fighting for surivival to expanding their knowledge banks. Knowledge = power and like always, the more knowledge you have, the more perspective you have. The geth have the most collective perspective then any BEING in the galaxy since the geth have catgorized every single major event and minor event in any area of interest avaiable on the extra-net down to who started what.

As to your silly analogy.  A genocidal maniac that is caught after he's 'changed his ways', will still be held accountable for those crimes.  If they have enough evidence to convict, he will still be put to death, regardless of his repentant attitude.  He may die with a clear conscience, but he will be put to death all the same.

Yeah, the Geth collective are guilty for slaughtering billions of Quarians.  Of course, the Quarians are responsible for starting the war.  There's a problem with this, however.  Every single Quarian responsible for that war is long dead, even the survivors that started the Floatilla.  So who's been wronged now?  The collective Geth that are literal copies of the ones that butchered billions of people, or the descendants of the survivors of that war?

[CmdrFenix83]

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

All of that can be summed up with a simple "he's an infiltrator".  You're aware that undercover cops do stuff like that all the time, right?  They commit a series of crimes to cement their cover.  Absolutely nothing Legion does justify the implicit loyalty.  He even advocates saving the Collector Base... perhaps because the real one in charge of him thinks it's a good idea?  We don't know, and have zero information to base trusting him on. 

We don't know if he's here simply to gather intel on us.  The Reapers have used sleeper agents like this before, Vigil has told us such.  Being caught spying as he was, immediately invalidated every single word he's stated, and everything he's done.

As Shep is already stuck in a death trap, you want to save him so you can learn his weakness to kill him...?
They would blow up a huge military installation, wasting all those resources, instead of use them in the Citadel attack?

And as i said, my Legion was completely justified in checking Tali's data, even though it was not neccessary after helping clear out the Quarian ship.

Shepard is a catalyst.  Legion is a watcher.  Remember Nyxeris?  'The Observer'?  Same deal.

I'm also glad you condone espionage between squadmates.  Remind me never to work for you.

[Mallissin]

Shandepared wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

And my point is that you didn't have a point. You were promoting contrarianism, which is not constructive.

I was saying that you should analyze the narrative, its characters, and plot points yourself. You should not rely on the author alone to form your opinion. Obviuosly they are the ones writing the story but you should draw your own conclusions. My point is that most people don't: they believe whatever the author wants them to believe.

The Empire is bad because George Lucas says so. (I'm not saying they aren't bad)

The Na'Vi are good because James Cameron says so. (I'm not saying they are bad)

Legion is good because the developers say so. (I'm not saying he is bad)

Think for yourself, in other words.

It's a part of the story telling experience that you accept what the author is laying out. This is fiction, not non-fiction. If the author doesn't hint at the Empire being good, the Navi evil or Legion a spy, then you should not try to see it.

Instead, people are trying to see what they want in the story. It's called projection and these threads are attempts to steer others to see it too.

[CmdrFenix83]

Internet Kraken wrote...

What you're suggesting is an incredibly convoluted and ridiculous scheme that has no apparent benefit. Oh, and Citadel News Reports claim that Geth ships are heading back towards the Perseus Veil in mass if you rewrite the heretics. Is this part of their elaborate hoax as well? To abandon almost all of their operations outside of the veil if Shepard rewrites the heretics? It just seems so impractical.

Never heard this report.  Probably because I never get time to go anywhere after that mission, since my crew is abducted immediately afterwards.  Then again, I usually blow them up too.  I find it hilarious that Paragon Shep talks about the ethics of rewriting them, and then the Paragon option is to go ahead and rewrite them...

Still never heard that report though.  I'm not saying it doesn't exist, just that I've never heard it so I couldn't use it in basis for my position.  It's 'possible' that this too could all be a part of the hoax, letting them regroup and rearm after getting their asses handed to them, but even I don't lend that much credibility. 

I never denied that it's all perspective, but none of my Shepards have been given one iota of evidence to trust Legion. 

Oh and I do wish to thank you, IK, for being civil in the discussion.  That's a rarity and makes for an enjoyable debate.

[CmdrFenix83]

The Elite Elite wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Knit pick my posts, how cute.
Wether it is the collective or individual, they still saved Shepard whenever they could.

Yes, and my point is that we don't know why. All we know is that up until we encounter Legion, all the Geth we have run into have tried to kill us. Suddenly we find one that actually helps us and we're supposed to just take everything it says at its word? We have no reason to really trust everything it says. Now, I'll agree that we don't just destroy it or that we should somehow be surprised that it would spy on our crewmate that is from the very species that have tried to destroy the Geth. But we shouldn't take everything it says at its word. (Legion afterall admits that the Geth have spread a lie across the extranet just to see what the reaction would be from organics. Who's to say the Geth don't have some other purpose for infiltrating a Geth unit into Shepard's crew?)

Legion is a character to be careful with. A potentially useful ally in ending the war with the Geth and possibly bringing another ally against the Reaper threat, or a possible threat to us and our mission.

Well put, though I still wouldn't condone any shipmate spying on another for any reason.

[CmdrFenix83]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

OP is clearly trolling.

Trolls aren't allowed to call others trolls. Got it?

Um....that would make sense if I were a  troll, but I'm not.

Mhm. Plenty of proof to the contrary and plenty of times reported as well. Like your snide lil comment on the Wrex/Aria group.

There's a world of difference between being an ****hole and being a troll, dumb****.

If my intollerance toward stupidity offends you that's not my problem. You could try making less dumb posts for starters.

Actually you're just belligerant and hostile because you cannot come up with a legitimate argument.  There are many people that can debate properly(Like Internet Kraken and several others I've had the pleasure to butt heads against), but what you do would be most productive if you never hit that submit key.

[Inquisitor Recon]

I don't. In fact I have no problem with supporting the destruction of the Geth.



There are a few problems however:

1. The Quarians are militarily incompetent and I have little faith in their ability to defeat the Geth

2. The Geth can serve as fodder when the Reapers arrive and would be a useful temporary ally in that regard.



So as much as I would like to take the Normandy SR2 out for a spin and destroy some Geth ships, it may be better to avoid killing the mainstream Geth in the short term.



Legion is a cool guy (well... robot) so perhaps I can find a way to keep him around.

[CmdrFenix83]

Vaenier wrote...

Well I am tired. I am sorry to hear that your universe is without Legion. I know mine is better having him than without. Best of luck in the upcoming Geth Quarian war.

My main Shepard plans to retake it by force and put the Quarians back onto it... so I suppose I'll accept your best wishes.  Not all of my Shepards follwed this path, but my main did.

[Nightwriter]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I'm sorry, but my imperfect human belief really is...

If it can ask if it has a soul, it has a soul.

I don't believe in a soul anyway, so that's entirely irrelevant.

Somehow, dis comes as no surprise.

[GuardianAngel470]

Ok OP, I'll run you down my reasoning as briefly as possible. I could go into justifications for the genocide but I won't.



The geth have a collective intelligence. That means that when they are all together and networked, they are one person. That is all the geth have ever known. It stands to reason that they would make the assumption that that is how all life works. Wouldn't us as humans immediately assume that each mobile platform is a person, based on how humans work?



If the geth did indeed believe that is how the Quarians worked, then they saw each quarian as only part of a collective, one whose objective from the start was the extermination of all geth. Now I'm not saying that is how it was, I'm sure there were some quarians who disagreed with war, but based on the geth's understanding of Life they would have no reason to think that there were quarians that disagreed with war.



This train of reasoning would also explain the number of dead quarians as well as the type of dead quarians, ie women and children. There is no gender difference and no age difference between the geth runtimes so they would have no innate concept of age or gender without being told.



Now it should be said that it is still possible based on the lack of information about the Morning war that the geth did know that there were gender/age differences as well as opinion differences, but If that is true then there is no logical reason the geth would kill so many quarians. The geth are computers, they don't do anything without a logical reason. For this reason I believe that the geth were ignorant about the true nature of organic life.



Also, from the recording played by legion it seems that the Morning War geth had limited cognicience and limited intelligence. They may also have seen the quarians as a threat that could only be solved by complete destruction. This idea is aided by my other theory in that if they saw the quarians as one consciousness then it would really be a glorified one on one duel to the death for the geth.



It is also possible that they only realized that the Quarians were individuals toward the end, which is why they chose to let the quarians go with their meager fleet of survivors.



I'm not claiming any of that is right or wrong, just saying that it is all possible based on what we know about the Morning war. I could go into more but I don't have the energy to fight over it, I already did that in the Liara thread.

[CmdrFenix83]

Cascadus wrote...

Uh... no, you didn't comprehend the concept much. Each geth, each mobile platform is just one geth, that network with other platforms to gain sentience beyond the baseline. Legion is unique in that it has around 1,300 programs in it to achieve the equivalent sentience without needing to network. He's the only one that exists at the current moment.
And honestly, I don't get all these tinfoil hat conspiracies. I'll echo an earlier statement that it's entirely ridiculous the geth would construct entire bases and allow him the slaughter millions of geth, various operations that would cost ridiculous amounts of resources for some contrived hoax to convince Shepard they're good. On top of that, he allows Shepard to decide the fate of his people.
Again, spying refers to malicious intent. Legion learns his people are in danger. He should totally stay quiet and refuse to tell his people. Like you wouldn't do the same.

Reasoning behind snooping are irrelevant.  I don't care if you're completely justified.  If you are suspicious of being an enemy, even if you yourself haven't done anything wrong yet, and you're caught red-handed spying on someone that *is* a proven, trusted ally... then I'm not going to give you the benefit of the doubt here.  I don't care what you have to say, or your reasoning.  I wouldn't even hear you out. 

For the situation in-game, when you walk in and ask what's going on... the instant Tali says she caught him scanning her omni-tool, I would have interrupted her right there and said, "Shoot him."  I trust her implicitly just as I would Garrus, Joker, Chakwas, Ashley, Kaiden, Liara, or Wrex.  They've all proven themselves as loyal and trustworthy individuals, and nothing Legion could say would make his word valid in my mind. 

I've already conceeded the point that Legion is most likely being 100% truthful to Shepard, so I won't continue arguing that.

[Karstedt]

[Inquisitor Recon]

Shepard once melted down a Geth and drank it as a shake as part of a dare.

[CmdrFenix83]

Internet Kraken wrote...

The Collector Base, if you have Legion with you, he advocates you keeping it. Despite his earlier comments about self-determination, he suddenly swapped his position and advocates you keeping another race's data. Suspicious.

All squad mates will advocate keeping the base during the mission. Legion is not the only victim of this event.

This isn't true.  You only get 1 squadmate opinion here, and they're split.  Half suggest keeping it, and half suggest destroying it.  I don't remember who all falls into either category, been a few weeks since I've played through...(10 playthroughs completed and my disc is starting to die).

My point is simply that there's nothing in game that gives him enough trust to overlook him spying on another crewmember. Period.

Except that Legion was never spying on Tali. He just scanned her omni tool to acquire specific data to send back to the Geth because the Quarians were preparing for war. Which is perfectly understandable, considering that this is the genocide of his entire species we're talking about. The heretic base also proves that he is trustworthy.

The problem here is that you are always trying to spin the situation to make Legion look bad. You act like he is completley oblivious to what the rest of the crew does, so that the only way he could have found out about the Alerai was if he didn't trust Tali. You claim that the heretic base was an elaborate hoax, so that it is not an indication of his loyalty. I don't always assume the worst with Legion, so I guess that's why I am capable of trusting him.

Well, that's the difference right there.  I see him as a Geth that's done something different than the norm, so I give him a little bit of rope and see where it goes.  A couple hours later he's caught red-handed spying on Tali.  And yes, it's spying on her just as sure as it would be walking into someone's bedroom and snooping through their things.  It's espionage, plain and simple.  He's caught red-handed.  The little bit of trust I granted him for his actions on the derelict and the Heretic station was immediately destroyed. 

[Mallissin]

Shandepared wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Instead, people are trying to see what they want in the story.

Keep fighting the good fight; shut those blasphemers the hell up!

I love this. I tell people to think for themselves and I get told that I'm wrong.

Not every good idea need be applied everywhere.

[CmdrFenix83]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Actually not really, Tali may have had more infomation on the threat. Sure legion could warn his people right away, but he wouldn't have the specifics of the threat nor how it would be an threat. To be honest, I am sure if Legion had shown up on the flortilla that he would have an "armed" escort with him at all times ready to pump him full of lead if he makes does anything at all. Quarians aren't stupid enough not to keep a eye on their systems and not to have legion walking around alone.

I meant on board the Alarei.  He would have heard every detail necessary right there without any supervision.  All those logs are plainly accessible and give him every ounce of information he would have taken from scanning her omnitool.  The *only* reason to scan her omnitool would be for specific information regarding Tali, as even she didn't have the details of their experiments.  That's something Daro'Xen found later.

[CmdrFenix83]

Cascadus wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

I'm actually someone that liked his character in-game(even if my main Shepard was suspicious), got to the forums and saw everyone's blind love for him, and moved to hate him later.  Not dissimilar to the group that just adamantly hate Tali due to that monstrosity of a thread.  I love Tali's character too, but I stay out of that thread.  With Legion, I get these annoying Legion fanboys that based their judgment of the entire Geth on how well Legion can dance or how well he works that Widow.  It got sickening enough to the point that I can't stand the character anymore. 

Actually, this is pretty ridiculous logic. I don't get how people liking Legion is grounds for hating him. If it were that simple, wouldn't you absolutely hate Tali? You say you just ignore the massive thread, but no one's forcing you to read Legion fanboy comments. No one's ruining the character for you, you're letting people ruin the character for you.

I don't visit the Tali thread, so I don't have Tali fanlove shoved down my throat.  I do however, or rather used to, frequent the thread topics about the Quarian/Geth conflict.  I was obstaining from them precisely for this reason(I mean, even look at my sig), but when I say this title, I had to open it.  You can tell from my very first post that I wasn't looking for discussion, I just wanted to post the one snide comment and leave it at that.  ::sighs:: Sadly, I have a tendancy to respond when someone talks to me, and this translates to the forums as well.