587 réponses à ce sujet

[Ea James Madden]

To think the Geth didn't understand the difference between Quarians age,gender etc,Is blind wishful thinking.(IMO)
The Quarians created and programed the Geth.The Geth learned from the Quarians.The Geth occupied the homeworld.And they didn't know Men,women,and children are differnt? Ignorance is no excuse. If they were so great in battle,they would deff know the differnce between Quarians. Why are these Quarians weaker then those? They were questioning their existince,why not assume they were learning/questioning as much as they possible could?
You only assume and see what you want to make the inocent peaceful god fearing creatures. When they have shown otherwise. The Geth can not venture beyond the veil due to not fuctioning properly.Quit assuming it was their choice.

Ps:Best estimates is the Geth have 5,000 to 10,000 ships.  +  According to Legion, this is because they are unable to operate correctly outside the Veil, with Legion itself being the sole exception.

Both proved here masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

Modifié par Ea James Madden, 01 avril 2010 - 06:09 .

[Nu-Nu]

They're still processing al the information they have. They don't have the same emotions and thinking organics do. They take a vote and come to the most logical decision, not the most ethical. If they decide becomming peaceful is the most logical outcome for their existence they will follow that path, but they need input from variables to come to that conclusion, like shepard and tali helping them. They are not closed off to peace, but they also won't stand down if their lives are in danger because it is not a logical thing to do.



They do not think like organics, emotions, ethics and most importantly grudges does not effect their decisions which means they are better at reasoning with then organics at war.

[klossen4]

well if i was a machine and turned sentient and my builder try to shut me down just because i turned sentient well i would defend myself and kill him if i must

[Gocad]

Ea James Madden wrote...
...
 How are they a peaceful race when they have never pursued any peaceful solutions ever?
...

Peace requires two parties willing to do so.

The Geth opinion is: "Leave us alone and everything is cool". And unlike other organic races they don't even need planets to exist. Legion makes it quite clear that the reason the Geth are still hostile towards the Quarians is simply that they have yet to accept the notion of making peace with the Geth. (There may be some that do think so, but they seem to be regarded as wimps and weirdos.)
The Quarians rather keep thinking about how to destroy or subjugate the Geth...a notion shared by other races in this galaxy (judging by their opinion about AIs)

Also, I guess some have trouble seeing the Quarians as the culprits here since they like Tali so much... 

[Inverness Moon]

Ea James Madden wrote...

Ps:Best estimates is the Geth have 5,000 to 10,000 ships.  +  According to Legion, this is because they are unable to operate correctly outside the Veil, with Legion itself being the sole exception.

It is not that they can't operate correctly outside the Veil, it is more that they don't want to bring multiple geth platforms outside of the Veil in order to maintain sentience and possibly lead to violence, so they made a special platform that could hold ten times as many geth as the average platform so it could maintain sentience on its own and operate with a far less chance of attracting attention.

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

What better cover for the Reapers to gain advanced knowledge of their main enemy than from someone that pretends to be childlike and thirsty for knowledge?  No, he wouldn't shut himself up, he would want to be moving around, learning, watching, observing.  Do you not understand espionage?

Firstly, it seems like you're just looking for a reason not to trust Legion. Secondly, I hardly think the reapers consider humanity enough of a threat to have such a spy.

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Geth are programs.  They are theoretical.  They exist as nothing more than code stored on disks.  Unlike true AI's, they can download themselves all over the place, because they aren't AI's.  They just make a new set of copies to occupy a new shell.  There is also no evidence that the Heretics built the station. 

Uh, yes the geth are AI's, as the codex clearly says. They're just a different kind of AI, something that is also explained in the codex. The codex entry on geth technology clearly indicates that they transfer themselves between hardware, not copy.

If you're going to bother to argue then stop spouting nonsense and do your research.

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Yeah, the Geth collective are guilty for slaughtering billions of Quarians.  Of course, the Quarians are responsible for starting the war.  There's a problem with this, however.  Every single Quarian responsible for that war is long dead, even the survivors that started the Floatilla.  So who's been wronged now?  The collective Geth that are literal copies of the ones that butchered billions of people, or the descendants of the survivors of that war?

It is not relevant whether or not geth programs are copies of the ones from the morning war, since the geth, like organics, can reach different conclusions over time as they assimilate data.

Codex: Geth Technology

The most difficult aspect of geth existence for organics to comprehend is that a body is meaningless to geth. The biped form commonly perceived as a geth is nothing more than a "mobile platform." A geth's software -- hundreds of programs whose interactions mimic organic consciousness -- can be installed in any given hardware. The geth that was a bipedal soldier an hour ago may now be a quadruped heavy armature and, in another hour, might be a starship. Between tasks, geth programs upload to gigantic space station mainframes that allow billions of programs to exchange thoughts and memories with minimal lag.
The claim that the geth are an example of the extreme risk posed by AI development is misleading. As opposed to the "top down" design of organic-created AIs, in which hardware and software are specifically designed to achieve consciousness, geth are a "bottom up" model. They were never intended to possess more than animal-level, trainable reasoning.
Designed as VI-driven robots -- not significantly different from modern security mechs -- geth consciousness developed as their adaptive learning programs interact with one another via networked processing. The geth code-base discovered that three individual robots using a wirelsss local network to form a single mind could perform many tasks more efficiently than they could as individuals. As these local networks were more heavily exploited, they reached a critical mass of processing, achieving consciousness.
Modern geth retain this remarkable interconnectivity, constantly exhancing data with one another and networking to increase their cognitive abilities. To geth,these mind-sharing abilities are as natural and unconscious as breathing is to most organics.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 01 avril 2010 - 10:41 .

[boogie]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
I liked Legion... till he was caught spying on another crew member.  To this day, I do not understand why I don't have the option of letting her shoot him.  He's guilty of espionage.  "Creators were discussing plans to attack our people..."  Blah blah blah.  You wouldn't have known that if you hadn't gone behind her back and stole the information from her omni-tool.  You're a spy and should have been executed on the spot as such.

Arf, what did I miss?!? Where did this happen?

Modifié par boogie, 01 avril 2010 - 10:40 .

[FelixLionheart]

The Quarians attacked the Geth first starting the Morning Wars and the Geth retaliated driving them out of their system but this isn't a matter of who or who isn't Peaceful because both sides were at fault in some way.

[TobyHasEyes]

Its probably also worth considering, CmdrFenix83, that Legion has spent all his time out of the Veil soaking up as much information from all possible sources, especially digital. Chances are he knew the Quarians were planning on taking their homeworld back, am sure even if the specific new military knowledge wasn't known outside of the Flotilla, then the general sentiment was. I am all on the Geth's side here, and fortunately don't care too much for Tali, so my thinking waters remain unmuddied

[Peepshow12]

One simple reason to trust Legion. He's been following Shep since Eden Prime (IIRC) and had every chance to kill you. Why do I let the spying slide? He wants to protect the Geth. Most logical way to do that is spy on the Quarian crew member. It's harmless-ish and understandable compared to what Legion could have done.

[Inverness Moon]

Peepshow12 wrote...

One simple reason to trust Legion. He's been following Shep since Eden Prime (IIRC) and had every chance to kill you. Why do I let the spying slide? He wants to protect the Geth. Most logical way to do that is spy on the Quarian crew member. It's harmless-ish and understandable compared to what Legion could have done.

Some people in this thread prefer to ignore Legion's intentions--which are perfectly understandable--and only focus on what Legion did: the so-called espionage.

I doubt many (CmdrFenix83) would call for Tali to be executed on the spot had she done what Legion did.

[Cascadus]

Hah, I swear they'd congratulate her and validate her for picking up on Legion's treachery.

...but what am I still doing here? It's a clash of opinions here and obviously there's no point arguing them because we'll end up going round and round and round until we end up in the exact same position.

[Vaenier]

Yay Hypothetical:

During Tali's loyalty mission, Shep discovers that they are preforming viral weapon testing on humans in preparation of war. Would Shep not have the right to take data from Tali and warn his people?

[Flamewielder]

Ea James Madden wrote...

You only assume and see what you want to make the inocent peaceful god fearing creatures. When they have shown otherwise. The Geth can not venture beyond the veil due to not fuctioning properly.Quit assuming it was their choice.

Ps:Best estimates is the Geth have 5,000 to 10,000 ships.  +  According to Legion, this is because they are unable to operate correctly outside the Veil, with Legion itself being the sole exception.

Both proved here masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

What about the tons of Geth Shepard had to dispose of on Eden Prime, Virmire, Ilos, and throughout the Armstrong cluster? I think the key word is that they do not operate correctly, which could mean many things. But Geth CAN operate outside the Veil. They can shoot well enough that most players have had to reload their games a couple of times... (Shepard's badass... mainly because HE can reload, and we can't...) If the Geth thought it necessary to pursue the Quarians beyond the Veil, they'd have done so. If they can shoot a gun, heck, if they can fly spaceships all the way to the Citadel (ME1), they most certainly can leave the Veil!

War is ugly, on all sides. Germans bombed civilians in London in 1940, Allies fire-bombed Germany in return. For the women and children, it sucked regardless on whatever side they were. They suffered, they died. Plain and simple. You can choose to feel hatred over it for the next 200 generations or you can decide it's in the past and eventually decide peace is preferable, once the pain has gone down enough.

You can decide: "OK, the Geth are toasters, let's recycle them". That's one point of view.
You can decide: "OK, the Geth are EVIL toasters, let's recycle them in the blast furnace feet first so we can stare into their beady little optics as they melt..." That's another point of view... if a rather twisted one.
You can decide: "OK, we've waited 300 years for a cyl..., er... Geth invasion that never came and we've discovered one that talks. It's not spouting religious nonsense, seems rather a sensible chap (or 1183 chaps, as it were)

(take a breath here)

and suggests the Geth may be willing to formalize a peace that has essentially existed since the migrant Fleet left the Veil... Maybe we should talk with them some more?" That's my point of view, but then I have a paragon's tendency to be verbose...

[Maria Caliban]

Gocad wrote...

Also, I guess some have trouble seeing the Quarians as the culprits here since they like Tali so much... 

I don't think it's that as much as the geth being a major antigonist in the first game.

Sure, they're later labeled 'heretics,' but that's still a huge chunk of geth who decided that all organic beings must die. If a 'runtime error' can happen once, it can happen twice.

[Ea James Madden]

A paragon who backs a race that killed billions in self-preservation and is stronger then the victim Quarians? A simple invite back to homeworld would have been nice. Not even one single peaceful tranmission,but every ship traveling into the veil has uh been killed or disappeared? So I can understand why the Quarians don't go ventureing beyond the veil,which has proved to be hostile in more ways then one. (Billions of Quarian deaths and countless other races ship being destroyed,converted to husks,or just disappearing.)



Flame why don't you go back and read some of the previous posts.They will explain Heritics and True Geth. Two Factions head and evolving down 2 different paths. The Heritics had help from the Reapers.The "True Geth" did not. So let's assume what Legion said is true (like you all do) and the Geth can not function properly beyond the Veil... And leaving the veil 300 years later doesn't mean they could 300 years ago.

[GreenDragon37]

Ea James Madden wrote...

A paragon who backs a race that killed billions in self-preservation and is stronger then the victim Quarians? A simple invite back to homeworld would have been nice. Not even one single peaceful tranmission,but every ship traveling into the veil has uh been killed or disappeared? So I can understand why the Quarians don't go ventureing beyond the veil,which has proved to be hostile in more ways then one. (Billions of Quarian deaths and countless other races ship being destroyed,converted to husks,or just disappearing.)

Flame why don't you go back and read some of the previous posts.They will explain Heritics and True Geth. Two Factions head and evolving down 2 different paths. The Heritics had help from the Reapers.The "True Geth" did not. So let's assume what Legion said is true (like you all do) and the Geth can not function properly beyond the Veil... And leaving the veil 300 years later doesn't mean they could 300 years ago.

You act like the Quarians are do-no-wrong people, yet they were the ones who statred the war in the first place, and they are the one's who are still continuing it. Besides, you keep forgetting that if the Quarians had just stopped attacking early on in the Mourning War the Geth would have left them alone. But because they continued to assault the Geth, the Geth would retaliate, as they should. Were they excessive with their attacks on Quarian populations? Yes. But are the Quarans free from fault. No. Considering that they are the ones who began the war.

The whole point is that the Quarians need to get over what happened 300 years ago. The Reapers are coming, and if the Quarians go ahead with their plans for war, they and everyone in the galaxy could be screwed.

[Flamewielder]

Ea James Madden wrote...
A paragon who backs a race that killed billions in self-preservation and is stronger then the victim Quarians? A simple invite back to homeworld would have been nice. Not even one single peaceful tranmission,but every ship traveling into the veil has uh been killed or disappeared? So I can understand why the Quarians don't go ventureing beyond the veil,which has proved to be hostile in more ways then one. (Billions of Quarian deaths and countless other races ship being destroyed,converted to husks,or just disappearing.)

With the amount of intelligence a species of synthetics can gather by simply evesdropping on public traffic, I'm sure the Geth are aware of the strong prohibitions set by organics against any artificial intelligence research. As a matter of fact, organics have demonized synthetics (even Joker quips about HAL9000 and The Matrix). The Morning War only re-inforced this prejudice and organics have done nothing to demonstrate that, as a whole, they are ready to coexist peacefully with synthetics. Geth do not need organics. Why bother inviting organics back?

As you say, there are Heretics and there are True Geths. Heretics serve(d) the Reapers so kill(ed) non-endoctrinated organics on sight. It's possible all the ships that travelled through the Veil were destroyed by Heretics. True Geth and Heretics coexisted peacefully until the Heretics tried to re-program the True Geths. Hence Legion's loyalty mission.

Geths killed billions of Quarians in a self-preservation/defensive reflex, a large portion of which were non-combattants (including children). I doubt that the Geth were able to mass in sufficient numbers to achieve conscensus over the morality of slaughtering non-combattants, given that the revolt spread too rapidly for them to achieve the massive networks the True Geth have achieved since. I would argue that, since the Geth are only as intelligent as their largest gathering, they were not able to judge the morality/immorality of the wholesale slaughter of quarian civilians. They had a more pressing concern: stopping the quarians from destroying them.

Trying to portray either side as "the aggressor" or "the victim" is beside the point. Should they, or are they able to coexist as allies? THAT is the real question.

Legion was not able to decide between re-programming the Heretics or leaving them as they were. He asked the organics to decide for him. In essence, he asked the organics to help him figure out an ethical dilemma. A larger collective might have been able to reach a consensus on this, but being only a small collective, Legion was not. Ethics are difficult things to debate. Legion trusted Shepard to make the right choice for all Geth... That's a LOT of trust, bordering on naiveté...

My paragon decided to overwrite the Heretics,assuming that if Reapers are able to endoctrinate organics, they must have endoctrinated the Heretics. So reprogramming them to True Geth was the right thing to do from his perspective: it freed the Heretics from from Reaper endoctrination.

Science flies you to the moon. Religion flies you into buildings. I don't know for you guys, but I kinda prefer science...

[Nightwriter]

How can you not love this face?

[Gavinthelocust]

God damn thread why won't you just die!

[TomBmbadil]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

@OP.

Because Legion is in ME2, has some amusing comments, and can dance.  Therefor, they take everything he says as indisputable proof that the Geth are all just a bunch of poor victims in the entire galactic scene. 

I liked Legion... till he was caught spying on another crew member.  To this day, I do not understand why I don't have the option of letting her shoot him.  He's guilty of espionage.  "Creators were discussing plans to attack our people..."  Blah blah blah.  You wouldn't have known that if you hadn't gone behind her back and stole the information from her omni-tool.  You're a spy and should have been executed on the spot as such.

This

[Solomen]

Personally I don't want the Geth to be peaceful. A race of inorganics peacefully contemplating their synthetic lack of a bellybutton doesn't do me any good against the Reapers. I do want them to make peace with the quarians though so both parties don't eliminate each other before the big fight. By ME3 all the heretics should be eliminated/absorbed. With quarian civilians safely on the refurbished homeworld the Fleet can fully focus on the battle.

Thane should visit a certain admiral though... thats a powder keg waiting to go off...

[Mecha_Gandhi]

ive read through this thread and just felt like stating:

geth are not a race. it is not genocide to shut them off. its a program. not life. they were designed to act and perform a certain way. the plan failed and it needed to be rectified. if your creation becomes something you did not intend, you destroy it, especially if its a program (delete, recompile). you dont let it wander about to see what fun activities it may lend itself to. hell, the bible is full of stories such as these (tower of babel, noahs flood, etc.) and the bible is never wrong!

unlike some poster was stating, you cannot attribute mental-age to legion. just because the bastards curious doesnt mean he has the mentality of a 5-10 year old. if i go to live in turkey and ask my turkish compatriots "why's he wearing that" "why is he doing this?" "blah blah blah?" i would feel insulted if he thought of me being ignorant as a child. legion is a machine, not some autistic idiot.

legion scanned talis omnitool against her wishes. who cares if it contained information about geth survival. if you were on-board a ship where the majority distrusted you and you snuck your thieving hands into a bag of information-goodies so you can send back to your base, do you honestly think the crew will go "Oh, well at least he had a reason. come lets play a game of cards and ill have rupert send us a beer or two!"


a machine is a machine. theyre meant for labor, not for philosophizing.

Modifié par Mecha_Gandhi, 02 avril 2010 - 11:07 .

[DPSSOC]

Mecha_Gandhi wrote...
a machine is a machine. theyre meant for labor, not for philosophizing.

Organic life is just a squishy machine.  All the same components just softer parts.