587 réponses à ce sujet

[wulf3n]

Ea James Madden wrote...

End Case based on only facts. (Concerning the Morning war.) The Geth are the Victors and the Quarians are the Victims...
Not the other way around.You can tell me the Quarians were the Aggresors and the Geth were the Defenders. True but the Geth won making them the Victors and the Quarians the Victims.

wait!...since when does loosing a war make you a "victim"? I can think of plenty of situations where the losing side of a war could hardly be called the victims.

[Srau]

wulf3n wrote...
wait!...since when does loosing a war make you a "victim"? I can think of plenty of situations where the losing side of a war could hardly be called the victims.

Soo true.

Ea James Madden wrote...
End Case based on only facts. (Concerning the Morning war.) The Geth are the Victims and Victors and the Quarians are the Agressors and Loosers...

fix'd

I personnally call that a deserved kick in the back.

Modifié par Srau, 02 avril 2010 - 11:54 .

[Solomen]

Mecha_Gandhi wrote...

ive read through this thread and just felt like stating:

geth are not a race. it is not genocide to shut them off. its a program. not life. they were designed to act and perform a certain way. the plan failed and it needed to be rectified. if your creation becomes something you did not intend, you destroy it, especially if its a program (delete, recompile). you dont let it wander about to see what fun activities it may lend itself to. hell, the bible is full of stories such as these (tower of babel, noahs flood, etc.) and the bible is never wrong!

unlike some poster was stating, you cannot attribute mental-age to legion. just because the bastards curious doesnt mean he has the mentality of a 5-10 year old. if i go to live in turkey and ask my turkish compatriots "why's he wearing that" "why is he doing this?" "blah blah blah?" i would feel insulted if he thought of me being ignorant as a child. legion is a machine, not some autistic idiot.

legion scanned talis omnitool against her wishes. who cares if it contained information about geth survival. if you were on-board a ship where the majority distrusted you and you snuck your thieving hands into a bag of information-goodies so you can send back to your base, do you honestly think the crew will go "Oh, well at least he had a reason. come lets play a game of cards and ill have rupert send us a beer or two!"


a machine is a machine. theyre meant for labor, not for philosophizing.

I bet you performed surgery on your childhood toys

[Mecha_Gandhi]

DPSSOC wrote...

Mecha_Gandhi wrote...
a machine is a machine. theyre meant for labor, not for philosophizing.

Organic life is just a squishy machine.  All the same components just softer parts.

yes, but if i were to "shut off" an organic, id get arrested for murder.

if i shut off a machine, id probably just ****** off a person for not saving their work.

Solomen wrote...
I bet you performed surgery on your childhood toys ../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png

i had transformers as a child. [smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png[/smilie]

[DPSSOC]

Mecha_Gandhi wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Mecha_Gandhi wrote...
a machine is a machine. theyre meant for labor, not for philosophizing.

Organic life is just a squishy machine.  All the same components just softer parts.

yes, but if i were to "shut off" an organic, id get arrested for murder.

if i shut off a machine, id probably just ****** off a person for not saving their work.

True but that's just cause organic machines take longer to replace.  Once we perfect accelerated growth cloning murders going to get you a slap on the wrist at most.

Mecha_Gandhi wrote...

Solomen wrote...
I bet you performed surgery on your childhood toys ../../../images/forum/emoticons/angry.png

i had transformers as a child. ../../../images/forum/emoticons/joyful.png

So how can you possibly hold your views on machines if you had Transformers?  Grimlock is disappoint.

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...


The geth have a collective intelligence. That means that when they are all together and networked, they are one person. That is all the geth have ever known. It stands to reason that they would make the assumption that that is how all life works. Wouldn't us as humans immediately assume that each mobile platform is a person, based on how humans work?

If the geth did indeed believe that is how the Quarians worked, then they saw each quarian as only part of a collective, one whose objective from the start was the extermination of all geth. Now I'm not saying that is how it was, I'm sure there were some quarians who disagreed with war, but based on the geth's understanding of Life they would have no reason to think that there were quarians that disagreed with war.

This train of reasoning would also explain the number of dead quarians as well as the type of dead quarians, ie women and children. There is no gender difference and no age difference between the geth runtimes so they would have no innate concept of age or gender without being told.

Just so long as you understand that this only serves to justify the quarians' attack against the geth. If this is indeed hwo the geth thought at the time then it is doubtful the quarians could have achieved anything by trying to reason with them. The two entities involved were simply too different from one another.

This is probably true.  At least after the order went out to exterminate the geth.  Try and if it doesn't work attack.  That is the most logical course of action.  i take issue with the implied possibility that the quarians didn't try.  It is never expressly stated that they didn't, but by Tali's explanation in ME1 it appears that they didn't try.

I agree that you can't let yourself be attacked by someone, but they had neither a solid reason to believe the geth would rebel nor the experience to say that they wouldn't accept peace.  With the amount of difference between the geth and the quarians what the quarians did was project on the geth what they thought they would do based on their experience as organic individuals.  I think that we can agree as you stated your opinion that they are too different to accurately judge how the geth would react to being servants. This means that the Quarians justifications for attack were based on projections, which are never a good thing to go to war on.

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

Legion's actions are understandable but they were still wrong. He should have brought his concerns to Shepard first. Instead he went not only behind Tali's back, but behind Shepard's as well. That is not something that should be easily forgiven, though I don't know that I'd just shoot Legion for it either. Ultimately I find that the charm/intimidate option is the most sensible way to resolve it.

I agree with this.  Legion signed away his right to decide things for himself when he put himself under shepard's command.  I also agree that the Charm/intimidate option was the right thing to do.  While what legion did was insubordination at best, he doesn't deserve to be shot for it.

And yes I know that he isn't a he, but using that pronoun is my way of acknowledging his sentience.  I also know he isn't an individual, but because his decisions are made without consulting the collective, I believe he is solely responsible for them.

[GuardianAngel470]

wiggles89 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Legion's actions are understandable but they were still wrong. He should have brought his concerns to Shepard first. Instead he went not only behind Tali's back, but behind Shepard's as well. 

Legion's action was most logical for both paragon & renegade Shepard. Paragon Shepard supports peace & has sympathy for the Geth. For Legion it's obvious that Shepard should have no problem looking at Tali's data. However, paragon Shepard could have a problem if it's done against Tali's wishes (there's no way she consents to it). Given Legion wants the data, it's most logical for Legion to bypass Shepard. Renegade Shepard supports war against the Geth. Telling him he's going to look at Tali's data would be retarded.

That is like justifying asking your mom for a toy because you know your dad will say no.  It is still wrong because you are manipulating your parents.

[CmdrFenix83]

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Its probably also worth considering, CmdrFenix83, that Legion has spent all his time out of the Veil soaking up as much information from all possible sources, especially digital. Chances are he knew the Quarians were planning on taking their homeworld back, am sure even if the specific new military knowledge wasn't known outside of the Flotilla, then the general sentiment was. I am all on the Geth's side here, and fortunately don't care too much for Tali, so my thinking waters remain unmuddied

Which is exactly why you're biased in the Geth's favor, and the reason I've come to hate Legion.  I used to like both characters until the Legion fanboys came on here and just sided with the Geth as a whole simply because they liked Legion.  My initial thoughts were 'both sides made mistakes, and need to get over it'.  Now I just want to exterminate the damned robots.

Secondly, why is this thread still going?  The OP's question was answered back on page one.  People assume the Geth are peaceful because they like Legion and trust what he says implicitly.  Period.

[CmdrFenix83]

Peepshow12 wrote...

One simple reason to trust Legion. He's been following Shep since Eden Prime (IIRC) and had every chance to kill you. Why do I let the spying slide? He wants to protect the Geth. Most logical way to do that is spy on the Quarian crew member. It's harmless-ish and understandable compared to what Legion could have done.

You're misinterpreting what Legion said.  He wasn't sent after Shepard until Shepard went missing.

It's good to know you condone espionage by a race that's proven to be hostile against allies.  I'm glad you're not responsible for our military.  You might recruit Al Quaeda members and turn a blind eye as they start collecting vital intel on us to send back to random caves in Afghanistan.

[CmdrFenix83]

Inverness Moon wrote...

Peepshow12 wrote...

One simple reason to trust Legion. He's been following Shep since Eden Prime (IIRC) and had every chance to kill you. Why do I let the spying slide? He wants to protect the Geth. Most logical way to do that is spy on the Quarian crew member. It's harmless-ish and understandable compared to what Legion could have done.

Some people in this thread prefer to ignore Legion's intentions--which are perfectly understandable--and only focus on what Legion did: the so-called espionage.

I doubt many (CmdrFenix83) would call for Tali to be executed on the spot had she done what Legion did.

Tali has proven herself trustworthy through ME1.  Tali is not a Geth, who have attacked Shepard 100% of the time prior to encountering Legion.  I would have the same reaction to a batarian squadmate caught looking through classified data on humanity.

[Solomen]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

TobyHasEyes wrote...

Its probably also worth considering, CmdrFenix83, that Legion has spent all his time out of the Veil soaking up as much information from all possible sources, especially digital. Chances are he knew the Quarians were planning on taking their homeworld back, am sure even if the specific new military knowledge wasn't known outside of the Flotilla, then the general sentiment was. I am all on the Geth's side here, and fortunately don't care too much for Tali, so my thinking waters remain unmuddied

Which is exactly why you're biased in the Geth's favor, and the reason I've come to hate Legion.  I used to like both characters until the Legion fanboys came on here and just sided with the Geth as a whole simply because they liked Legion.  My initial thoughts were 'both sides made mistakes, and need to get over it'.  Now I just want to exterminate the damned robots.

Secondly, why is this thread still going?  The OP's question was answered back on page one.  People assume the Geth are peaceful because they like Legion and trust what he says implicitly.  Period.

I don't want the geth to be peaceful.  I want them to go to war.  I don't however want them going to war with the quarians and I'll enforce a peace if I have to do it at the muzzle of my caine

[GuardianAngel470]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Peepshow12 wrote...

One simple reason to trust Legion. He's been following Shep since Eden Prime (IIRC) and had every chance to kill you. Why do I let the spying slide? He wants to protect the Geth. Most logical way to do that is spy on the Quarian crew member. It's harmless-ish and understandable compared to what Legion could have done.

You're misinterpreting what Legion said.  He wasn't sent after Shepard until Shepard went missing.

It's good to know you condone espionage by a race that's proven to be hostile against allies.  I'm glad you're not responsible for our military.  You might recruit Al Quaeda members and turn a blind eye as they start collecting vital intel on us to send back to random caves in Afghanistan.

I trust legion because he has been in firefight after firefight with me and he opened the door for me when he had an option with plausible deniability.  Does that make me a fan boy? I don't think so.  Does that mean I think spying on your teammates is right? No, as I said above, he should have asked shepard to resolve the situation.  He was being insubordinate, but he wasn't betraying anybody.  He should have talked to shepard, but I don't think he deserves to be shot and I don't think that makes him any less trustworthy.  One lie doesn't make a person untrustworthy, especially when that lie is made for the good of his people.

Misguided is what I call legion in this case.  I don't think following someone and choosing not to shoot them makes a person trustworthy, but when they can be trusted to watch your back in combat as well as on a suicide mission then I am inclined to trust them.  Add to that Legion is up front with you about his intentions, his motives, and his backstory as well as, eventually his peoples plans for the future, and that trust becomes cemented for me. Sooner or later you have to trust someone, and in order to do that you have to disseminate the evidence about a person. Legion has enough evidence to support his trustworthiness for me, which is why I trust him.

Does that make you wrong? No, everyone's barometer for trust is different.  I'm a cynical person and as such I recognize that Legion could very well be lying to me.  But the Same could be said of Garrus, Thane, Samara, Miranda, Jack, Jacob, Tali (my LI), and every other person in the ME universe.  What makes them trustworthy and Legion not?  Turians hate humans over the First contact war, Garrus could be lying in order to disrupt my plans at the most destructive time.  Miranda and Jacob could be biding their time to assassinate me for blowing up the base or for whenever the Reaper threat is gone because I oppose Cerberus.  Tali might secretly hate humans for something that happened to her on her Pilgrimage, and as such she wants to hurt a human in the worst possible way.  I don't know that any of that is false, but I trust each person enough to believe it is. I trust them for the same reasons I trust Legion.

[binaryemperor]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

OP ur stoopid, k?

Who let the internet in here?!


Anyways...

I think the Geth had plenty of times to singlehandedly screw over the council races faster than you can say "reaper invasion"

The Geth are certainly uncouth in their behaviour, but I would not expect synthetics to be any other way, considering they are surrounded by organics who have no qualms with wiping them out without a second thought.

So basicially, I think the Geth are as peaceful as any other sentient race could be in the same situation as them.

As I see it, their logic probably points to "Survival above all else, then Peace."

[Ea James Madden]

GreenDragon37 wrote...

Ea James Madden wrote...

A paragon who backs a race that killed billions in self-preservation and is stronger then the victim Quarians? A simple invite back to homeworld would have been nice. Not even one single peaceful tranmission,but every ship traveling into the veil has uh been killed or disappeared? So I can understand why the Quarians don't go ventureing beyond the veil,which has proved to be hostile in more ways then one. (Billions of Quarian deaths and countless other races ship being destroyed,converted to husks,or just disappearing.)

Flame why don't you go back and read some of the previous posts.They will explain Heritics and True Geth. Two Factions head and evolving down 2 different paths. The Heritics had help from the Reapers.The "True Geth" did not. So let's assume what Legion said is true (like you all do) and the Geth can not function properly beyond the Veil... And leaving the veil 300 years later doesn't mean they could 300 years ago.

You act like the Quarians are do-no-wrong people, yet they were the ones who statred the war in the first place, and they are the one's who are still continuing it. Besides, you keep forgetting that if the Quarians had just stopped attacking early on in the Mourning War the Geth would have left them alone. But because they continued to assault the Geth, the Geth would retaliate, as they should. Were they excessive with their attacks on Quarian populations? Yes. But are the Quarans free from fault. No. Considering that they are the ones who began the war.

The whole point is that the Quarians need to get over what happened 300 years ago. The Reapers are coming, and if the Quarians go ahead with their plans for war, they and everyone in the galaxy could be screwed.

Let me make this simple for your simple mind.When did I ever act like the Quarians are without fault? Your arguement ends right there,because you first statement is false and a lie. So your are telling me that the Geth would just have let the Quarians float around the system and their homeworld,After trying to kill the Geth off,just because? Well how is retaliation excessive? Is excessive killing not wrong? So should I say your are acting like the Geth have done nothing wrong ever? What about the Geth who decided to accept help from the Reapers? Only becoming indoctrinated after they willing accepted to help the Reapers? Listen to Legion appearntly some Geth wanted to reach Reaper status faster then others. Legion says true Geth wish to discover this path on their own,and the Heritics accepted help from the Reapers. (Since the only way anything is possible is to make random assumptions.)

So in the end what I am truly saying is that yes BOTH sides are wrong and hold fault in the manner,and neither side has shown much indicating a peaceful solution. You can't just blame one side,all I'm asking you is to be open to the other side,but you will not. Telling me all about how the Quarians are wrong and that makes the Geth right. Lol I just showed you the Geth holding just as much fault in the 300+years of confilct.And never said the Quarians were inocent.  Loghain in DA was the aggressor, but was not evil and wrong...Just made a mistake(later redeeming himself.),why can't either side see past that mistake? Why can't you?

So basicially, I think the Geth are as peaceful/non-peaceful as any other sentient race could be in the same situation as them.
As I see it, their logic probably points to "Survival above all else, then Peace."

Modifié par Ea James Madden, 02 avril 2010 - 07:12 .

[kraidy1117]

wulf3n wrote...

Ea James Madden wrote...

End Case based on only facts. (Concerning the Morning war.) The Geth are the Victors and the Quarians are the Victims...
Not the other way around.You can tell me the Quarians were the Aggresors and the Geth were the Defenders. True but the Geth won making them the Victors and the Quarians the Victims.

wait!...since when does loosing a war make you a "victim"? I can think of plenty of situations where the losing side of a war could hardly be called the victims.

So by James logic then the Germans are victims for losing WW2 even tho they caused it? Geth are victims, they protected them self.

[Ea James Madden]

No Kraidy1117,wulf3n, and Srau that's your assumption of what I said about the Quarians/Geth not Germans.

But by your logic inocent German women and children killed during war-time is ok,because they started the war. Or by your logic all the Inocents dying in the Middle East is ok,because of 9-11. Killings Millions of innocents in excesive force is wrong no matter the side. The Germans kept their country and freedom.They were not killed off for being wrong,no the world grew past their mistake.
Germans killed millions,What about America and Japan. Are you telling me America dropping a-bombs on Japan killing 2 cities and causing generations of mutation is right and ok because of Pearl Harbor?

Modifié par Ea James Madden, 02 avril 2010 - 07:30 .

[Vaenier]

Ea James Madden wrote...

No Kraidy1117,wulf3n, and Srau that's your assumption of what I said about the Quarians/Geth not Germans.

But by your logic inocent German women and children killed during war-time is ok,because they started the war. Or by your logic all the Inocents dying in the Middle East is ok,because of 9-11. Killings Millions of innocents in excesive force is wrong no matter the side. The Germans kept their country and freedom.They were not killed off for being wrong,no the world grew past their mistake.

Killing innocents sucks. Sadly, sometimes it is a neccesary part of war. When soldiers live in the cities, when the factories making tanks or built next to houses, it is inevitable for collateral damage. The diliberate targeting of civilians is wrong, but sadly when an enemy will not back down, its neccessary.

Are you telling me America dropping a-bombs on Japan killing 2 cities and causing generations of mutation is right and ok because of Pearl Harbor?

The bombs were dropped not as revenge, but because Japan would not surrender. They would fight to the last man, killing much more than the two bombs had.

[Habelo]

Actually the reapers are more something of a organic thing then synthetic.

oh and for the reccord, the germans didnt start ww1 and ww2. The french did.- but however the victors writes the history

Modifié par Habelo, 02 avril 2010 - 07:53 .

[kraidy1117]

Habelo wrote...

Actually the reapers are more something of a organic thing then synthetic.

oh and for the reccord, the germans didnt start ww1 and ww2. The french did.- but however the victors writes the history

I am German and i will admit it was our fault. Hitler became too greedy and power hungry. He started the war, French fought back and then became huge babies and went to other countries for help. The point I am making is that the Geth did not cause the war, they where dfending them self from Genocide. They could have wiped out the Quairans (spelling) but they just drove them out and the point that they are taking care of there homeworld and say that there can be peace shows me Geth are peaceful. As much as Korris is a wussy, he has a very good line. "Of ocurse they did, we tried to kill them"

[Ea James Madden]

Thats all fine and dandy.What I am saying is German soldiers were not victims,while some would consider certain Japanese to be victims of an American war crime or just America. Since the usage of the 2 a-bombs nuclear war-fare has been "Frowned upon"...
Kraid1117 the Geth didn't have the choice to continue following the Quarians to kill them off, they had to stop.You assume the Geth decided to stop at the veil?The one place they could no longer function properly if crossing?  The choice was made for them,kinda hard to give them credit for allowing the Quarians to peacefully leave,when they had no choice in the matter. The Quarians ran to safety to get away from the pursing Geth? Seems more likely to me.masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

Modifié par Ea James Madden, 02 avril 2010 - 08:10 .

[kraidy1117]

Ea James Madden wrote...

Thats all fine and dandy.What I am saying is German soldiers were not victims,while some would consider certain Japanese to be victims of an American war crime or just America. Since the usage of the 2 a-bombs nuclear war-fare has been "Frowned upon"...
Kraid1117 the Geth didn't have the choice to continue following the Quarians to kill them off, they had to stop.You assume the Geth decided to stop at the veil?The one place they could no longer function properly if crossing?  masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

So then why is Legion not going on a killing spree then? Or why did the Heritics not attack them? They are victims of a war, the Quarians got scared and tried to do Genocide and it backfired. They couldf have lived in peace but they where too stupid and stuborn. I don't view the Quarians as tragic or sad, I don't even feel sorry for them. They caused it there self. The only violent Geth we have seen are the Heritics, the normal Geth are not violent and even view the Reapers as a foe.

[Srau]

Habelo wrote...

Actually the reapers are more something of a organic thing then synthetic.

oh and for the reccord, the germans didnt start ww1 and ww2. The french did.- but however the victors writes the history

err
Ok for WWI but it was Austria after the death of the Archduke.
But WWII, France and UK (+ Commonwealth) officialy declared war althrough it was technically already started by the invasion of Poland.

[Ea James Madden]

The Quarians did not try and kill a sentient race.Another bad assumption being made. Everyone frowns upon playing god.That is why AI research is illegal. The Quarians realized the Geth were on thr brink of becoming Sentient and the Galaxy would frown upon them playing god(which the galaxy does)so to right their mistake the tried to destroy the Geth before becoming sentient,but by this time it was to late. Just a mistake and misunderstanding that no one can seem to get past. A mistake, The Quarians tried to destroy a race of synthetic mundane robots,not a sentient Geth race. Once they realized what they have done it was to late,and the Geth were pursuing with no remorse.

Modifié par Ea James Madden, 02 avril 2010 - 08:19 .

[Internet Kraken]

Mecha_Gandhi wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Mecha_Gandhi wrote...
a machine is a machine. theyre meant for labor, not for philosophizing.

Organic life is just a squishy machine.  All the same components just softer parts.

yes, but if i were to "shut off" an organic, id get arrested for murder.

if i shut off a machine, id probably just ****** off a person for not saving their work.

Except the Geth aren't just machines. They are sapient life forms. Each Geth has their own opinnions. Each Geth is unique. So why is killing them not an issue to you? Becuase they are made of metal?

Even if you believe the Geth should be exterminated, thinking they are nothing more than machines is rather foolish.