587 réponses à ce sujet

[Ea James Madden]

PS Kraidy Legion does commit espionage against the Quarians own Tali Zorah,The Heritics work for the Reapers who are uh attacking all life in the galaxy.(Including the Quarians.) The heritics are deff hostile. Even by your own True Geth standards.The Heritics are just indoctrinated foot soldiers for the Reapers not capable of making their own desicions.(Based off Legions comments and/or ME codex.)

[kraidy1117]

Ea James Madden wrote...

The Quarians did not try and kill a sentient race.Another bad assumption being made. Everyone frowns upon playing god.That is why AI research is illegal. The Quarians realized the Geth were on thr brink of becoming Sentient and the Galaxy would frown upon them playing god(which the galaxy does)so to right their mistake the tried to destroy the Geth before becoming sentient,but by this time it was to late. Just a mistake and misunderstanding that no one can seem to get past. A mistake, The Quarians tried to destroy a race of synthetic mundane robots,not a sentient Geth race. Once they realized what they have done it was to late,and the Geth were pursuing with no remorse.

Did you even read what you just wrote. I will pull a little qoute that shows that the Quarians knew the Geth where turly Sentiant and not just a machine

"Does this unit have a soul?"
"Who taught you that word?"
"It appears on the wall of ancestors 100 times (I know I got this wrong a little bit)
"Only Quarians have souls, you are a machine"

Does that sound like the Geth where just machines. Geth showed awarness and true feelings, questioning there exsistence like oragnics would. The Quarians where going to shut them shut permantly (which is killing to a Geth) The Geth had no choice to fight back and drove them out, you have no proff that they would killed all the Quarians. We do have proff that the Quarians tried to kill a race. Not to mention Legion has been out of the Vail for two years, yet he never tried to attack the Quarians and even says that if the Quarians can live in peace, then they would not mind. The Geth want peace, the Quarians want war. As said from Shepard.

"Tali you father was runnig brutal experiment on the Geth, if they where human I would dam well be telling the Alliance about it."

Legion had the right to send that data to the Geth.

Modifié par kraidy1117, 02 avril 2010 - 08:28 .

[Ea James Madden]

One Question does not make you sentient,having the potential to become sentient yes(it could have been a minor malfunction in one of their mundane working Geth)<-Quarian pov (not mine).And that is what I said. Did you read it? Not all Quarians want war.That is also wrong. I never said the Geth would have killed all Quarians,but now that you mention it.Think about it,There were billions of Quarians now there are only 17 million.The Geth only stopped killing Quarians at the veil,which they could not physically pass. The question was deff a sign,and is why the Quarians decided to act quickly. Well yea before they became I guess to Sentient so yea. But I never said the Quarians were right for their actions. There are other ways they should have went about handling their mistake.

Modifié par Ea James Madden, 02 avril 2010 - 08:38 .

[kraidy1117]

Ea James Madden wrote...

One Question does not make you sentient,having the potential to become sentient yes.And that is what I said. Did you read it? Not all Quarians want war.That is also wrong. I never said the Geth would have killed all Quarians,but now that you mention it.Think about it,There were billions of Quarians now there are only 17 million.The Geth only stopped killing Quarians at the veil,which they could not physically pass.

Theres no proof that the Geth where trying to kill them all. That is your thought, not a fact. It's a fact that the Quarians where trying to kill all Geth. Legion has the right to go snopping around in Talis information if it endangers his race. You are using your thoughts become fact which is wrong. Unless Legion says that they wanted to kill them all then yes, they are not peaceful. The point that the Geth are caring for the Homeworld and Legion even tells Korris that it is poseable for peace if the Quarians want it. The Geth don't want war, the Quarians, including Tali want it.

[DPSSOC]

Ea James Madden wrote...

One Question does not make you sentient,having the potential to become sentient yes(it could have been a minor malfunction in one of their mundane working Geth).And that is what I said. Did you read it? Not all Quarians want war.That is also wrong. I never said the Geth would have killed all Quarians,but now that you mention it.Think about it,There were billions of Quarians now there are only 17 million.The Geth only stopped killing Quarians at the veil,which they could not physically pass.

Legion points out that was not the first time a Geth had asked that question.  Tali points out (ME1) that the Geth had started questioning the nature of their existence.

So they were acting outside the boundaries of their programming (which could be seen as the equivalent of instinct), taking independent action, expressing self awareness, and abstract thought.  What more do you require for sentience and sapience.

And you realize that living on a fleet of ships, with heavy reproductive restrictions, and limited resources is not conducive to population growth right?  Of course their population has suffered a drastic down-turn; when your average generation is (at best) 1/2 the size of the one that came before you're going to run into that problem.

[kraidy1117]

DPSSOC wrote...

Ea James Madden wrote...

One Question does not make you sentient,having the potential to become sentient yes(it could have been a minor malfunction in one of their mundane working Geth).And that is what I said. Did you read it? Not all Quarians want war.That is also wrong. I never said the Geth would have killed all Quarians,but now that you mention it.Think about it,There were billions of Quarians now there are only 17 million.The Geth only stopped killing Quarians at the veil,which they could not physically pass.

Legion points out that was not the first time a Geth had asked that question.  Tali points out (ME1) that the Geth had started questioning the nature of their existence.

So they were acting outside the boundaries of their programming (which could be seen as the equivalent of instinct), taking independent action, expressing self awareness, and abstract thought.  What more do you require for sentience and sapience.

And you realize that living on a fleet of ships, with heavy reproductive restrictions, and limited resources is not conducive to population growth right?  Of course their population has suffered a drastic down-turn; when your average generation is (at best) 1/2 the size of the one that came before you're going to run into that problem.

Theres not point arguing with him, he is anti-geth.

[Ea James Madden]

Krady quote me saying something that I claim to be facts without proof. And not just the other side like I have been claiming.I'm telling you you have no proof for the Geth.Everything you have said I have shown you the other side.Something either you can not or are not willing to do.



Why does Legion have the right? He doesn't it is still esionage. Just like the Quarians thinking the Geth could be a threat.So they decide to test weopons should be alright to you then

? Legion was caught spying on the Quarians and is more then willing to send the info back to the Geth potentially starting a War.Never trying to be peaceful without the help of Shepard. So The Geth are just as ready for war with the Quarians as the vice versa.You know Legion thoughts,He does not speak for all Geth.He proves this when he allows Shep to make the choice at the Heritic station.

N/m I will stop right there.You quote me saying I never said the Geth would Kill all Quarians,then still tell me thats what I'm saying and claiming it to be facts. Quote me one time were I claim something to be facts,without providing a link?

[Flamewielder]

Ea James Madden wrote...

Thats all fine and dandy.What I am saying is German soldiers were not victims,while some would consider certain Japanese to be victims of an American war crime or just America. Since the usage of the 2 a-bombs nuclear war-fare has been "Frowned upon"...
Kraid1117 the Geth didn't have the choice to continue following the Quarians to kill them off, they had to stop.You assume the Geth decided to stop at the veil?The one place they could no longer function properly if crossing?  The choice was made for them,kinda hard to give them credit for allowing the Quarians to peacefully leave,when they had no choice in the matter. The Quarians ran to safety to get away from the pursing Geth? Seems more likely to me.masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

I agree with your interpretation of Self-preservation first... then Peace, as I believe any sentient species would think the same.

Wars are prosecuted until one side has achieved its objectives/both sides agree the cost of sustaining the war has become too high. What were the Geths objectives? Survival, then peace. They've achieved that.

Now, as sentient beings, the True Geth are concerned about the Reapers forcing an evolutionnary path upon them, as opposed to self-determination. They initially coexisted with the Heretics, as long as the Heretics didn't try to force the True Geth to follow them. Once the Heretics (with Reaper help) came up with the re-programming virus, the True Geth realized that self-determination was not to be in the cards, if the Reapers were not stopped.

Legion was sent on a fact-finding mission, to try and find out how the organics managed to stop a Reaper (Nazara/Sovereign). They now know they're in the same boat as the organics: the Reapers will re-write/re-process them all. For the first time in 300 years they need something from organics: their help...

So to insure their self-preservation and self-determination, they are now forced to ally with organics they have trouble understanding. Thinking machines do not think like humans do. They understand concepts or metaphors on an intellectual level but have little or no grasp of emotions/morality although it seems Legion might be on the verge of a breakthrough. His emulation of Shepard may signal a new dawn for the geth consciousness: the dawn of emotional intelligence.

[kraidy1117]

Ea James Madden wrote...

Krady quote me saying something that I claim to be facts without proof. And not just the other side like I have been claiming.I'm telling you you have no proof for the Geth.Everything you have said I have shown you the other side.Something either you can not or are not willing to do.

Why does Legion have the right? He doesn't it is still esionage. Just like the Quarians thinking the Geth could be a threat.So they decide to test weopons should be alright to you then
? Legion was caught spying on the Quarians and is more then willing to send the info back to the Geth potentially starting a War.Never trying to be peaceful without the help of Shepard. So The Geth are just as ready for war with the Quarians as the vice versa.You know Legion thoughts,He does not speak for all Geth.He proves this when he allows Shep to make the choice at the Heritic station.
N/m I will stop right there.You quote me saying I never said the Geth would Kill all Quarians,then still tell me thats what I'm saying and claiming it to be facts. Quote me one time were I claim something to be facts,without providing a link?

You keep on saying the Geth where going to kill all the Quarians, There is no proff for that at all, that is your thoughtrs, not fact. Facts are the Quarians tried to kill them all, thisi s made clear from Tai as she says a message was sent to permantly shutdown the Geth. Also Legion has all the right to do it. Shepard's paragon response is the best.

"Tali, your father was running brutal experiments on the Geth. If they where human I would dam well be telling the Alliance."

Anybody in Legions place would have done it because what Talis father was doing could endanger the safety and sercurity of the Geth. Even you would have no matter what because of instincts. Why people feel sorry and try to protect the Quarians is beyond me. ME2 made me hate them ev en more because we at last get the full story on the war.

[Ea James Madden]

Kraidy you are making stuff up. I have never said the Geth were going to kill all Quarians.Thats why you CAN NOT quote it.(Quit making up lies about me.I don't appreciate it.)  That is not my thoughts. I don't assume to know the Geth's intentions. I just told ... people like you to stop assuming the Geth allowed the Quarians to live and leave beyond the Veil,when the Geth could not physically pass through the veil and continue to function properly. YOU HAVE NO PROOF IT WAS THEIR CHOICE.I have proof that states they could not fucntion properly beyond the veil.(Click the link)Choice being made for them.
Why did the Quarians venture beyond the veil to get away from the Geth?I guess we don't know.Was it because the Geth would not stop their slaughter,or was it the Quarians would rather live the way they live now compared to what?Death,Peace? Give me a reason the Quarians just decided to take their losses and leave?To become stronger and attack in the future with smaller numbers? Doesn't make sense to me. If the Quarians left because they would rather live then die,that wouldn't suggest the Geth let them go...
Stated by Legion masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth. 

Modifié par Ea James Madden, 02 avril 2010 - 09:25 .

[Homebound]

smudboy wrote...

Because Legion is Geth.
As in, all of them.
And he didn't try to kill you.

Dont you just love the Geth? One "person" is enough to judge their entire "race".

[The Spamming Troll part 2]

youd think any logically thinking mind would be peacefull, wouldnt you? the smartest person in the world doesnt make war, they prevent war. iof legion is a good representation of geth, then id guess geth would be fairly nonviolent whateveryoucallems.

[GuardianAngel470]

Vaenier wrote...

Ea James Madden wrote...

No Kraidy1117,wulf3n, and Srau that's your assumption of what I said about the Quarians/Geth not Germans.

But by your logic inocent German women and children killed during war-time is ok,because they started the war. Or by your logic all the Inocents dying in the Middle East is ok,because of 9-11. Killings Millions of innocents in excesive force is wrong no matter the side. The Germans kept their country and freedom.They were not killed off for being wrong,no the world grew past their mistake.

Killing innocents sucks. Sadly, sometimes it is a neccesary part of war. When soldiers live in the cities, when the factories making tanks or built next to houses, it is inevitable for collateral damage. The diliberate targeting of civilians is wrong, but sadly when an enemy will not back down, its neccessary.

Are you telling me America dropping a-bombs on Japan killing 2 cities and causing generations of mutation is right and ok because of Pearl Harbor?

The bombs were dropped not as revenge, but because Japan would not surrender. They would fight to the last man, killing much more than the two bombs had.

Killing innocents is against the geneva convention in the real world, you can win a war without it.  That means it is never necessary.  If your enemy kills innocents that just shows that they have lost, even if they win militarily.  They will always be viewed by everyone as the person in the wrong.

The geth may or may not have had an honest reason for killing innocents.  They may have thought that all quarians were a threat because of their lower cognitive abilities at the time.  They may also have believed that the quarians function like the geth in that they had a collective intelligence.  If neither of those possibilities is true then the geth were in the wrong on a specific level.  I still think that the quarians got what they deserved, but that doesn't mean I agree with the geth's actions.

[GuardianAngel470]

The Spamming Troll part 2 wrote...

youd think any logically thinking mind would be peacefull, wouldnt you? the smartest person in the world doesnt make war, they prevent war. iof legion is a good representation of geth, then id guess geth would be fairly nonviolent whateveryoucallems.

Pacifists.  The most logical person sees that not all of the world/galaxy is logical and unemotional.  They know that war may end up being necessary.  They acknowledge that organics are prone to violence, greed, hate, and envy, the things wars have been fought over and result in.  A logical person isn't a pacifist, he is a pragmatist. 

[Solomen]

The Geth have no problem crossing the veil. They choose not to. They only sent one platform (Legion) to avoid starting an incident.



I think most of the Anti-geth come from people who started with ME1 and got a good grudge going. They forget that Shepard never met Geth, only Heretic. Legion is the first Geth platform to cross the Veil in 300 years.

[DPSSOC]

kraidy1117 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Ea James Madden wrote...

One Question does not make you sentient,having the potential to become sentient yes(it could have been a minor malfunction in one of their mundane working Geth).And that is what I said. Did you read it? Not all Quarians want war.That is also wrong. I never said the Geth would have killed all Quarians,but now that you mention it.Think about it,There were billions of Quarians now there are only 17 million.The Geth only stopped killing Quarians at the veil,which they could not physically pass.

Legion points out that was not the first time a Geth had asked that question.  Tali points out (ME1) that the Geth had started questioning the nature of their existence.

So they were acting outside the boundaries of their programming (which could be seen as the equivalent of instinct), taking independent action, expressing self awareness, and abstract thought.  What more do you require for sentience and sapience.

And you realize that living on a fleet of ships, with heavy reproductive restrictions, and limited resources is not conducive to population growth right?  Of course their population has suffered a drastic down-turn; when your average generation is (at best) 1/2 the size of the one that came before you're going to run into that problem.

Theres not point arguing with him, he is anti-geth.

There's always a point in arguing, it is only through discourse that we can hope to achieve consensus.  Even if neither of us convinces the other we're right we have gained insight, and that alone makes it worth the effort.

So I ask again EA, what other requirements beyond self determination, self awareness, and abstract thought do you require for sentience and sapience.

[Ea James Madden]

I never said the Geth were not Sentient. Another wrong assumption you have made.



I find the problem is most people look back,and not as if it was just happening.Imagine it got out of control pretty fast.But to blame 1 side when both sides are at fault is just wrong. Peace out I am done.The limited minded people in here have ruined this for me thanks alot.



Look beyond your own thoughts for a moment and see all possiblities,if you can't do that,you can never truly have peace.



When the Geth ask why, the Quarians better have an answer. When the Quarians ask why, the Geth better have an answer. See there is more then one side to this.

[Nightwriter]

Solomen wrote...

The Geth have no problem crossing the veil. They choose not to. They only sent one platform (Legion) to avoid starting an incident.

I think most of the Anti-geth come from people who started with ME1 and got a good grudge going. They forget that Shepard never met Geth, only Heretic. Legion is the first Geth platform to cross the Veil in 300 years.

I can't get a straight answer out of people. I've been hearing the reason they didn't cross the veil is they malfunction outside of it somehow. Then I hear others say it isn't true, it's just their choice.

Poor Legion... after I recruited him I kept seeing him out of the corner of my eye and shooting him. Instinct. I'd be like, "Oh, my bad, Legion! I'm sorry! Walk it off, buddy! Walk it off!"

Legion: "There was another hole."

I love him to death, though.

[GuardianAngel470]

wiggles89 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Legion's actions are understandable but they were still wrong. He should have brought his concerns to Shepard first. Instead he went not only behind Tali's back, but behind Shepard's as well. 

Legion's action was most logical for both paragon & renegade Shepard. Paragon Shepard supports peace & has sympathy for the Geth. For Legion it's obvious that Shepard should have no problem looking at Tali's data. However, paragon Shepard could have a problem if it's done against Tali's wishes (there's no way she consents to it). Given Legion wants the data, it's most logical for Legion to bypass Shepard. Renegade Shepard supports war against the Geth. Telling him he's going to look at Tali's data would be retarded.

That is like justifying asking your mom for a toy because you know your dad will say no.  It is still wrong because you are manipulating your parents.

It's in no way analogous. Me not getting the toy is the deprivation of a luxury I don't need. Legion hacked the information because Tali's father was doing weapons tests on Geth & Legion is like, y'know, Geth. That's a bit more serious than your toy example. Moreover, there isn't a parental relationship to connect the two situations. It makes no sense.

yes, but if i were to "shut off" an organic, id get arrested for murder.

if i shut off a machine, id probably just ****** off a person for not saving their work.

My computer isn't aware of its existence. It doesn't have self interest. If you take a baseball bat to my computer I'll be annoyed because you wrecked my computer, but you haven't destroyed something that's aware of its own existence & has self interest. Say, though, my computer is aware of its existence & has a self interest to stay "alive". Taking a baseball bat to it is, in most cases I can think of, morally wrong.

I used a parental figure in place of an authority figure. Let me give you another example.  Complaining about your first lieutenant to the colonel in charge of operations before talking to the lieutenant, his immediate superior, and so on and so forth.  Legion should have used the chain of command that he put himself under.  Tali is a fellow soldier in this, thus any complaint Legion has about anything to do with her needs to be routed to the commanding officer.  What he really should have done though is he should have talked to tali about it.  He had a complaint regarding her people and he should have talked to her.  You aren't justified in spying on a fellow soldier.  Besides the damage an act like that can have on unit cohesion, Legion had legitimate channels he should have gone through to solve his problem. 

If he thought that shepard wouldn't do anything that doesn't justify spying.  The analogy I used is a good representation of the type of action this is, if not an exact representation.

[GuardianAngel470]

Nightwriter wrote...

Solomen wrote...

The Geth have no problem crossing the veil. They choose not to. They only sent one platform (Legion) to avoid starting an incident.

I think most of the Anti-geth come from people who started with ME1 and got a good grudge going. They forget that Shepard never met Geth, only Heretic. Legion is the first Geth platform to cross the Veil in 300 years.

I can't get a straight answer out of people. I've been hearing the reason they didn't cross the veil is they malfunction outside of it somehow. Then I hear others say it isn't true, it's just their choice.

Poor Legion... after I recruited him I kept seeing him out of the corner of my eye and shooting him. Instinct. I'd be like, "Oh, my bad, Legion! I'm sorry! Walk it off, buddy! Walk it off!"

Legion: "There was another hole."

I love him to death, though.

I have no idea where this came from.  It is never said or implied anywhere in game or otherwise that the geth CANT go beyond the Veil.  What is implied if not expressly stated is that they value their privacy, so much so that they often kill anyone that goes beyond the veil into geth space.  If they don't kill them, they make an example out of them, hence the husks on the derelict ship side quest in me1.

It seems a shorter leap to go from not going beyond the veil to can't go beyond the veil than it is to go from valuing their privacy to choose not to go beyond the veil.

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
<snip>

All your massive post said was that despite the Geth attacking you on sight every single time you've encountered them, you're willing to blindly trust the one individual that doesn't.  All his actions on the derelict did for me was grant him his life.  The only battle he was brought to was his own loyalty mission that he gave my Shepard immediately.  The instant we finish, he's caught guilty of espionage.  He's done nothing to warrant solid trust, unlike Garrus, Tali, Joker, and Chakwas. 

Just because I activated him and did his loyalty mission, doesn't forgive the fact that he's a Geth.  That alone warrants suspicion.  He's found spying on another crew member.  That throws away any trust he might have earned while on the Heretic Station.  Confirms my suspicions that he might just be a spy sent to infiltrate the group.  Executed on the spot.

[Solomen]

Nightwriter wrote...

Solomen wrote...

The Geth have no problem crossing the veil. They choose not to. They only sent one platform (Legion) to avoid starting an incident.

I think most of the Anti-geth come from people who started with ME1 and got a good grudge going. They forget that Shepard never met Geth, only Heretic. Legion is the first Geth platform to cross the Veil in 300 years.

I can't get a straight answer out of people. I've been hearing the reason they didn't cross the veil is they malfunction outside of it somehow. Then I hear others say it isn't true, it's just their choice.

Poor Legion... after I recruited him I kept seeing him out of the corner of my eye and shooting him. Instinct. I'd be like, "Oh, my bad, Legion! I'm sorry! Walk it off, buddy! Walk it off!"

Legion: "There was another hole."

I love him to death, though.

The only reason Geth stays on the other side of the veil is that it doesn't need to cross it.  If it was to move across the veil in full force it would be vulnerable to the forces on the other side as well as the Creators.  There is no return investment  As long as the Creators don't come back across they have no reason to pursue
Heretic crossed the veil because Sovereign convinced its components that extermination was a good course of action. 

[DPSSOC]

Ea James Madden wrote...

I never said the Geth were not Sentient. Another wrong assumption you have made.

If I may

Ea James Madden wrote...
The Quarians did not try and kill a sentient race.

Ea James Madden wrote...
One Question does not make you sentient,

Now perhaps I misinterpreted but those statements sound a lot like you saying the Geth weren't sentient.

Ea James Madden wrote...
I find the problem is most people look back,and not as if it was just happening.Imagine it got out of control pretty fast.But to blame 1 side when both sides are at fault is just wrong.

 
I agree, but people who judge the Geth on their reaction to Quarian aggression and determine they are not peaceful are equally wrong.  The Morning War is part of their history, so if the 300 years where they've shown no sign of active aggression, only attacking those who invade their space.  That is not evidence of aggression that is evidence of insular thinking and fear.