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[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Listen, I see this everywhere.  We can't honestly compare the Geth to anything in the real world without telegraphing our ignorance.  There is no real world equivalent, and as such comparing the Geth to anything in the real world immediately invalidates any argument we may have.  None of us have personal experience and so all of us are ignorant.  If you keep this discussion in the hypothetical, then it can move forward. As soon as you start comparing the geth to computers you have started speaking hot air.  No argument where you compare the geth to a real world machine can succeed because both sides can say the other is ignorant when i fact the both are.  This post is for anyone who uses computers in their arguments, and is not limited to Commander fenix, Kraidy, and Ea James Madden.

Except that's exactly what the Geth are.  Advanced computers.  That's all VI's and AI's are.  The Geth are simply VI's that malfunctioned.  They are Skynet.  If you go ahead and watch T2 again, Arnold explains the situation with Skynet.  It became self-aware, we attempted to pull the plug, Skynet retaliated.  It's the exact same situation.  Except humanity didn't have space flight, so we were comdemned to fight to the last man, while the Quarians could run.

It's the exact same plot with a different ending due to different circumstances.

[CmdrFenix83]

Nightwriter wrote...

Isn't it a little bit like blaming all Muslims, everywhere, for 9/11? We know they're not all bad, and God, it's easy to just lump them all together and be hostile toward the lot of them, but we know it's also wrong.

The ones responsible were just a small faction of "heretics" from a much larger group that we really know nothing about.

Has every Muslim you encountered tried to kill you?  No?  Then the comparison falls apart.

Every Geth you met *has* tried to kill you.  That's the difference.  Even the Krogan and Batarians have examples of individuals that at least don't shoot at you.  *Every* Geth prior to meeting Legion has shot at you.  Every. Single. One.  *That* is the difference.

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

How so? What did he do that wasn't in keeping with the will of the True geth from our understanding of them?  I saw nothing but maybe you did.

I do believe that some level of individuality does occur as networks are separated from the collective.  They will make choices that the collective may not have based on having personal experience that the collective lacks.  This individuality however it tossed out the window as soon as they link back to the collective though.  Their data memories are shared with the collective and consensus is achieved, reseting the individuality clock back to zero.

This means that when Legion hooks up to the collective to retrieve the recording about the quarians his data memories are shared and disseminated.  While legion doesn't lose his individuality any changes to his actions based on the will of the collective does occur, at least it should.  This is all speculation as I don't know what legion did when he contacted the collective, he may or may not have shared his data memories.

One, he has cited an example himself that the Geth are capable of lies.  Two, he's caught red-handed, guilty of espionage.

[Solomen]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Solomen wrote...

The Geth have no problem crossing the veil. They choose not to. They only sent one platform (Legion) to avoid starting an incident.

I think most of the Anti-geth come from people who started with ME1 and got a good grudge going. They forget that Shepard never met Geth, only Heretic. Legion is the first Geth platform to cross the Veil in 300 years.

And that's exactly correct.  Legion shows up as an abnormality to the Geth we know.  We talk with him, and he tells his stories, we help him with his mission... and then he's caught commiting espionage against another crew member, one who's people haven't just tried to kill us at every opportunity.  A crewmember that's proven herself loyal through fire.  Legion proved himself untrustworthy and a spy.

The Creator was a threat to Geth.  Geth took precautions to protect itself against the Creator.  When confronted and given another option both parties reacted reasonably.  I can't fault Legion for hacking Tali's omnitool.  If he had actually sent the classified data after I worked out a peaceful solution then I'd have issues.

[RyrineaNara]

CmdrFeix how is that espionage when in fact Shepard him or her self has stated that they too would give the information too  the Alliance, if the Qurains had been doing it to humans.

Modifié par RyrineaNara, 02 avril 2010 - 10:49 .

[Nightwriter]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Isn't it a little bit like blaming all Muslims, everywhere, for 9/11? We know they're not all bad, and God, it's easy to just lump them all together and be hostile toward the lot of them, but we know it's also wrong.

The ones responsible were just a small faction of "heretics" from a much larger group that we really know nothing about.

Has every Muslim you encountered tried to kill you?  No?  Then the comparison falls apart.

Every Geth you met *has* tried to kill you.  That's the difference.  Even the Krogan and Batarians have examples of individuals that at least don't shoot at you.  *Every* Geth prior to meeting Legion has shot at you.  Every. Single. One.  *That* is the difference.

The only reason the comparison falls apart is because I'm not in the military and haven't encountered hostile Muslim terrorists firsthand.

If I had been in the military and been on the warfront - like Shepard - it would be much the same.

[CmdrFenix83]

Solomen wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Solomen wrote...

The Geth have no problem crossing the veil. They choose not to. They only sent one platform (Legion) to avoid starting an incident.

I think most of the Anti-geth come from people who started with ME1 and got a good grudge going. They forget that Shepard never met Geth, only Heretic. Legion is the first Geth platform to cross the Veil in 300 years.

And that's exactly correct.  Legion shows up as an abnormality to the Geth we know.  We talk with him, and he tells his stories, we help him with his mission... and then he's caught commiting espionage against another crew member, one who's people haven't just tried to kill us at every opportunity.  A crewmember that's proven herself loyal through fire.  Legion proved himself untrustworthy and a spy.

The Creator was a threat to Geth.  Geth took precautions to protect itself against the Creator.  When confronted and given another option both parties reacted reasonably.  I can't fault Legion for hacking Tali's omnitool.  If he had actually sent the classified data after I worked out a peaceful solution then I'd have issues.

That's the difference.  You trust Legion and find him justified in his actions.  I *didn't* trust Legion because I'm not stupid enough to think, "Hrm.  Every Geth I've seen has tried to kill me outright.  This one has done something different.  I shall now give him my complete trust and just assume he won't shoot me in the back or do anything else against my crew or myself."

I *do* fault him for hacking that omnitool just as much as I would fault Tali for attempting to hack Legion for information against the Geth.  They were both part of the crew, and espionage between them would absolutely not be tolerated.  The only difference?  I trust Tali enough to let her off with a reprimand.  I don't trust the single member of a race of sentient machines that *hasn't* tried to kill me... yet.

[RyrineaNara]

Shandepared wrote...

RyrineaNara wrote...

CmdrFeix how is that espionage when in fact Shepard him or her self has stated that they too would give the information too  the Alliance, if the Qurains had been doing it to humans.

The difference is that Shepard is the captain of the ship and leader of the team. Legion should have gone to Shepard with his concerns, not behind his back.

I would have done the samething, if my people were at risk.

Modifié par RyrineaNara, 02 avril 2010 - 10:52 .

[GuardianAngel470]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Solomen wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

All your massive post said was that despite the Geth attacking you on sight every single time you've encountered them, you're willing to blindly trust the one individual that doesn't.  All his actions on the derelict did for me was grant him his life.  The only battle he was brought to was his own loyalty mission that he gave my Shepard immediately.  The instant we finish, he's caught guilty of espionage.  He's done nothing to warrant solid trust, unlike Garrus, Tali, Joker, and Chakwas. 

Just because I activated him and did his loyalty mission, doesn't forgive the fact that he's a Geth.  That alone warrants suspicion.  He's found spying on another crew member.  That throws away any trust he might have earned while on the Heretic Station.  Confirms my suspicions that he might just be a spy sent to infiltrate the group.  Executed on the spot.

Legion is the first Geth platform Shepard has met.

Except there's all of ME1 and every Geth in ME2.  What makes you think what Legion says is true?  Legion has already told you that the Geth are capable of lying with his story about the fake constellation.  So again, why should I trust the first Geth that didn't immediately try to kill me?  Only a fool trusted him blindly the minute he was activated.  I was suspicious of him, and took everythign he said with a grain of salt.  Hours after activating him and 'helping' him with his loyalty mission, he's caught spying on another shipmate.  Any trust earned during those hours was immediately thrown away as Legion essentially confirmed every suspicion that he was a spy.

Oh, and if you have read the whole first post I say that I don't think you are wrong to not trust the geth or legion.  Each person has their own barometer for trust.  I think that if a person can be trusted to watch your back in a firefight and be trusted to obey your commands even when you tell them to kill members of their own race, they can be trusted.  I also think that because of the way the Geth work with their collective intelligence, how they are really just a glorified individual, if Legion can be trusted then the rest of the geth that he is aligned with can be too because they are all just one will.  Just like a Reaper is all bad because it wants to kill you and you accept that all the minds inside it are in agreement, the geth are one will and many minds.  The only difference is that the geth are separated among millions of platforms, a Reaper is housed in one platform.

That is my reason for trusting Legion and by extension the geth as a whole.  You may be even more cynical than me.

[CmdrFenix83]

RyrineaNara wrote...

CmdrFeix how is that espionage when in fact Shepard him or her self has stated that they too would give the information too  the Alliance, if the Qurains had been doing it to humans.

If you take the charm option, sure.  Perhaps the pure idealist Shepard condones it.  My Shepard doesn't, and always orders Legion to stand down.  He also ensured Legion's death on the suicide mission.

[Solomen]

Personally my Shepards are all for forcing a peace between geth and quarian... at caine point

[CmdrFenix83]

Nightwriter wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Isn't it a little bit like blaming all Muslims, everywhere, for 9/11? We know they're not all bad, and God, it's easy to just lump them all together and be hostile toward the lot of them, but we know it's also wrong.

The ones responsible were just a small faction of "heretics" from a much larger group that we really know nothing about.

Has every Muslim you encountered tried to kill you?  No?  Then the comparison falls apart.

Every Geth you met *has* tried to kill you.  That's the difference.  Even the Krogan and Batarians have examples of individuals that at least don't shoot at you.  *Every* Geth prior to meeting Legion has shot at you.  Every. Single. One.  *That* is the difference.

The only reason the comparison falls apart is because I'm not in the military and haven't encountered hostile Muslim terrorists firsthand.

If I had been in the military and been on the warfront - like Shepard - it would be much the same.

Even if you were a soldier.  There are civilians and noncombatant.  I'm not saying you would blindly trust them, you might be suspicious, but I wouldn't be any more suspicious of them than I would of any Krogan or Batarian either.  The Geth are different.  100% of the encounters with them resulted in them shooting at you on sight.  Legion is the single anomoly in this equation.  How do you know this isn't just an attempt to change strategy?  You don't.  You just blindly accept it.

[Saaen]

The Quarians initiated an attack on the Geth and the Geth made them pay by hunting them down.

I like to think of it as Japan and the United States in WWII.

Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and the United States responded with pure, unrelenting force (Albiet a smaller scale)

[BigGuy28]

If I've learned anything from this thread it's, CmdrFenix83 has an irrational hatred for the Geth and he would make a terrible leader.

When you defuse this "super evil horrible act of unbelievable mistrust" Tali trusts him enough to give him info to send. Tali, a Quarian, can forgive this act why can't you?

[RyrineaNara]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

RyrineaNara wrote...

CmdrFeix how is that espionage when in fact Shepard him or her self has stated that they too would give the information too  the Alliance, if the Qurains had been doing it to humans.

If you take the charm option, sure.  Perhaps the pure idealist Shepard condones it.  My Shepard doesn't, and always orders Legion to stand down.  He also ensured Legion's death on the suicide mission.

I'm someone who whould do the same thng that Legion did, so I do condne his actions.... 

[CmdrFenix83]

wiggles89 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

He's caught spying on a crewmember, confirming that he is indeed on board the ship to spy on the crew.  Executed on the spot.

Um, no. Legion only finds out about the information when he's on board the Normandy. It  finds out about this, it wants the information, so it hacks Tali's information. Do you have other examples of Legion hacking your crew's information? How do you know this is the reason it's on your ship?

"Kevin raped Maria! He's on our ship to rape the crew!"
"How do you know this?"
"He raped Maria!"

And again, you're just giving him the benefit of the doubt because you like him.  I don't care what his reasons are for doing what he did.  He's a Geth, that warrants suspicion.  He's caught spying.  He gets shot on the spot for it.  I wouldn't even give him a chance to defend himself.  He's proven himself a spy.

Once again, no. First, you said that him hacking Tali's information is proof that he's on the Normandy to spy on the crew. You've no proof that's the case from him hacking Tali's information. That's a non sequitur. Second, you're presupposing I like Legion. I do, but that's got nothing to do with my argument.

Thank you for proving my point.  You like Legion, so you trust him.  Spying on a team member and being caught in the act *is* irrefutable proof of him being a spy.  Are you telling me if you caught a foreign operative sitting at your computer system looking through classified information, you would give them the benefit of the doubt?  What the heck kind of stupidity is that?

[GuardianAngel470]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Solomen wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Solomen wrote...

The Geth have no problem crossing the veil. They choose not to. They only sent one platform (Legion) to avoid starting an incident.

I think most of the Anti-geth come from people who started with ME1 and got a good grudge going. They forget that Shepard never met Geth, only Heretic. Legion is the first Geth platform to cross the Veil in 300 years.

And that's exactly correct.  Legion shows up as an abnormality to the Geth we know.  We talk with him, and he tells his stories, we help him with his mission... and then he's caught commiting espionage against another crew member, one who's people haven't just tried to kill us at every opportunity.  A crewmember that's proven herself loyal through fire.  Legion proved himself untrustworthy and a spy.

The Creator was a threat to Geth.  Geth took precautions to protect itself against the Creator.  When confronted and given another option both parties reacted reasonably.  I can't fault Legion for hacking Tali's omnitool.  If he had actually sent the classified data after I worked out a peaceful solution then I'd have issues.

That's the difference.  You trust Legion and find him justified in his actions.  I *didn't* trust Legion because I'm not stupid enough to think, "Hrm.  Every Geth I've seen has tried to kill me outright.  This one has done something different.  I shall now give him my complete trust and just assume he won't shoot me in the back or do anything else against my crew or myself."

I *do* fault him for hacking that omnitool just as much as I would fault Tali for attempting to hack Legion for information against the Geth.  They were both part of the crew, and espionage between them would absolutely not be tolerated.  The only difference?  I trust Tali enough to let her off with a reprimand.  I don't trust the single member of a race of sentient machines that *hasn't* tried to kill me... yet.

I'm not saying that him hacking Tali's omni tool was Justified, otherwise I would say what he did was right.  I acknowledge that his justifications weren't malicious, which is why I don't fault him overmuch.  I still say that he should have gone to shepard, and that he was compromising unit cohesion by his actions.  I'm just saying that because I knew that he had only good intentions and no one was hurt by it, I don't feel that he is any less deserving of trust.  

It's like if a ****** at work was plotting to do something horrible to you, frame you for a crime kind of horrible, and you got wind of it.  The right thing to do would be to alert the authorities or your bosses, but what you choose to do is hack their computer and try to steal information to frame them instead.  Does that make what you did with a preemptive strike right? No.  Am I going to fault you for trying to protect yourself? No, I'm not.

[Solomen]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Isn't it a little bit like blaming all Muslims, everywhere, for 9/11? We know they're not all bad, and God, it's easy to just lump them all together and be hostile toward the lot of them, but we know it's also wrong.

The ones responsible were just a small faction of "heretics" from a much larger group that we really know nothing about.

Has every Muslim you encountered tried to kill you?  No?  Then the comparison falls apart.

Every Geth you met *has* tried to kill you.  That's the difference.  Even the Krogan and Batarians have examples of individuals that at least don't shoot at you.  *Every* Geth prior to meeting Legion has shot at you.  Every. Single. One.  *That* is the difference.

The only reason the comparison falls apart is because I'm not in the military and haven't encountered hostile Muslim terrorists firsthand.

If I had been in the military and been on the warfront - like Shepard - it would be much the same.

Even if you were a soldier.  There are civilians and noncombatant.  I'm not saying you would blindly trust them, you might be suspicious, but I wouldn't be any more suspicious of them than I would of any Krogan or Batarian either.  The Geth are different.  100% of the encounters with them resulted in them shooting at you on sight.  Legion is the single anomoly in this equation.  How do you know this isn't just an attempt to change strategy?  You don't.  You just blindly accept it.

All in all it doesn't matter.  According to EDI Geth is the size of a galactic arm.  If the quarians go to war they will be exterminated.  Legion appears to be seeking a peaceful resolution.  I'd rather have both against the reapers than pick sides

[RyrineaNara]

BigGuy28 wrote...

If I've learned anything from this thread it's, CmdrFenix83 has an irrational hatred for the Geth and he would make a terrible leader.

When you defuse this "super evil horrible act of unbelievable mistrust" Tali trusts him enough to give him info to send. Tali, a Quarian, can forgive this act why can't you?

I agree, a Quarian can forgive this act,  Puls , if you defuse this episode She also give him information to send that is not classified to the Geth.

Modifié par RyrineaNara, 02 avril 2010 - 11:03 .

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Oh, and if you have read the whole first post I say that I don't think you are wrong to not trust the geth or legion.  Each person has their own barometer for trust.  I think that if a person can be trusted to watch your back in a firefight and be trusted to obey your commands even when you tell them to kill members of their own race, they can be trusted.  I also think that because of the way the Geth work with their collective intelligence, how they are really just a glorified individual, if Legion can be trusted then the rest of the geth that he is aligned with can be too because they are all just one will.  Just like a Reaper is all bad because it wants to kill you and you accept that all the minds inside it are in agreement, the geth are one will and many minds.  The only difference is that the geth are separated among millions of platforms, a Reaper is housed in one platform.

That is my reason for trusting Legion and by extension the geth as a whole.  You may be even more cynical than me.

I gave him a chance.  I activate him, I took him for his little mission, and I started to like him.  Then he was caught red-handed as a spy.  I don't care who he's spying on.  Legion gives you precedent that Geth can lie with his story about the star constellations. 

Nothing else mattered to me.  1) He was a Geth 2) While initially appearing different, he proves himself a spy.  The story was over with him.  Any trust he might have garnered during that mission was lost the moment we got back through his own actions. 

As far as other people trusting him blindly, they're welcome to, but it doesn't suddenly make Legion's actions justified.  Espionage against another crew member is never justified, regardless of circumstances.

[GuardianAngel470]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

He's caught spying on a crewmember, confirming that he is indeed on board the ship to spy on the crew.  Executed on the spot.

Um, no. Legion only finds out about the information when he's on board the Normandy. It  finds out about this, it wants the information, so it hacks Tali's information. Do you have other examples of Legion hacking your crew's information? How do you know this is the reason it's on your ship?

"Kevin raped Maria! He's on our ship to rape the crew!"
"How do you know this?"
"He raped Maria!"

And again, you're just giving him the benefit of the doubt because you like him.  I don't care what his reasons are for doing what he did.  He's a Geth, that warrants suspicion.  He's caught spying.  He gets shot on the spot for it.  I wouldn't even give him a chance to defend himself.  He's proven himself a spy.

Once again, no. First, you said that him hacking Tali's information is proof that he's on the Normandy to spy on the crew. You've no proof that's the case from him hacking Tali's information. That's a non sequitur. Second, you're presupposing I like Legion. I do, but that's got nothing to do with my argument.

Thank you for proving my point.  You like Legion, so you trust him.  Spying on a team member and being caught in the act *is* irrefutable proof of him being a spy.  Are you telling me if you caught a foreign operative sitting at your computer system looking through classified information, you would give them the benefit of the doubt?  What the heck kind of stupidity is that?

i would say that if Legion were trying to spy on the crew I gave him an extremely good opportunity.  I let him past EDI's firewalls.  If he were trying to spy on the crew he could hack EDI's logs of all her monitoring, upload them to the collective, and then be destroyed by shepard.  He would have month's worth of information to give to the collective, but he didn't.  It would be more expedient than staying quiet and hacking the odd omni tool.

And that is another reason I trust Legion.  because he didn't exploit a glaring lapse in defense when he had the chance.

[curly haired boy]

the geth may be peaceful now, but they damn near committed genocide in the morning war. there is a vast gulf between fighting for survival and killing 96% of a population.



ESPECIALLY considering the geth's inherent advantages.