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[Solomen]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

He's caught spying on a crewmember, confirming that he is indeed on board the ship to spy on the crew.  Executed on the spot.

Um, no. Legion only finds out about the information when he's on board the Normandy. It  finds out about this, it wants the information, so it hacks Tali's information. Do you have other examples of Legion hacking your crew's information? How do you know this is the reason it's on your ship?

"Kevin raped Maria! He's on our ship to rape the crew!"
"How do you know this?"
"He raped Maria!"

And again, you're just giving him the benefit of the doubt because you like him.  I don't care what his reasons are for doing what he did.  He's a Geth, that warrants suspicion.  He's caught spying.  He gets shot on the spot for it.  I wouldn't even give him a chance to defend himself.  He's proven himself a spy.

Once again, no. First, you said that him hacking Tali's information is proof that he's on the Normandy to spy on the crew. You've no proof that's the case from him hacking Tali's information. That's a non sequitur. Second, you're presupposing I like Legion. I do, but that's got nothing to do with my argument.

Thank you for proving my point.  You like Legion, so you trust him.  Spying on a team member and being caught in the act *is* irrefutable proof of him being a spy.  Are you telling me if you caught a foreign operative sitting at your computer system looking through classified information, you would give them the benefit of the doubt?  What the heck kind of stupidity is that?

*cough*Jack*cough* *cough*Cerberus files*cough*

[Nightwriter]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Even if you were a soldier.  There are civilians and noncombatant.  I'm not saying you would blindly trust them, you might be suspicious, but I wouldn't be any more suspicious of them than I would of any Krogan or Batarian either.  The Geth are different.  100% of the encounters with them resulted in them shooting at you on sight.  Legion is the single anomoly in this equation.  How do you know this isn't just an attempt to change strategy?  You don't.  You just blindly accept it.

I accept it because I trust that in a story, when you meet a character whom the writers truly endear you toward, going out of their way to show you things from that character's perspective, make you feel for that character and second guess your preconceptions, they're probably not going to make that character into a complete traitor to stab you in the back.

You say, "Oh, you just like Legion, and that's your whole reasoning process"? Of course it is. I'm an imperfect human creature and I like him. Lots of people like Legion. In the real world this would have absolutely nothing to do with his trustworthiness. In a story it very much does.

[GuardianAngel470]

Shandepared wrote...

Saaen wrote...

The Quarians initiated an attack on the Geth and the Geth made them pay by hunting them down.
I like to think of it as Japan and the United States in WWII.
Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and the United States responded with pure, unrelenting force (Albiet a smaller scale)

It's a good thing for the Japanese that you weren't in charage of the American war effort then. To think people condemn the US for the atomic bombs. That would have been nothing compared to what you'd do.

Yeah this really isn't comparable to the US-Japanese conflict during WWII.  One includes the genocide and attempted genocide of two races and the other is just normal war.  The geth were wronged and they retaliated yes, but no race is justified in committing genocide.  That isn't to say I don't think the Quarians got what they deserved, but I that I think both sides were wrong.

[CmdrFenix83]

BigGuy28 wrote...

If I've learned anything from this thread it's, CmdrFenix83 has an irrational hatred for the Geth and he would make a terrible leader.

When you defuse this "super evil horrible act of unbelievable mistrust" Tali trusts him enough to give him info to send. Tali, a Quarian, can forgive this act why can't you?

It's irrational to distrust a race that has 100% of the time attempted to kill me?  Really?  This isn't like two enemies in a war shaking hands when it's over... they've attacked me on sight every single time.  That's a downright stupid statement.

Tali trusts *you*.  If you say it's ok, she'll go along with it.  She even points out her disapproval of having Legion on the team at all during this confrontation.  However, she trusts Shepard implicitly, just as my Shepard trusts her, Garrus, Joker, and Chakwas.  Hell, even Jacob proved himself more worthy of trust.  He's upfront about everything.

There's only two squadmates that have proven they can't be trusted.  Miranda and Legion.

[Solomen]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Saaen wrote...

The Quarians initiated an attack on the Geth and the Geth made them pay by hunting them down.
I like to think of it as Japan and the United States in WWII.
Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and the United States responded with pure, unrelenting force (Albiet a smaller scale)

It's a good thing for the Japanese that you weren't in charage of the American war effort then. To think people condemn the US for the atomic bombs. That would have been nothing compared to what you'd do.

Yeah this really isn't comparable to the US-Japanese conflict during WWII.  One includes the genocide and attempted genocide of two races and the other is just normal war.  The geth were wronged and they retaliated yes, but no race is justified in committing genocide.  That isn't to say I don't think the Quarians got what they deserved, but I that I think both sides were wrong.

Its been 300 years.

[GuardianAngel470]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
Listen, I see this everywhere.  We can't honestly compare the Geth to anything in the real world without telegraphing our ignorance.  There is no real world equivalent, and as such comparing the Geth to anything in the real world immediately invalidates any argument we may have.  None of us have personal experience and so all of us are ignorant.  If you keep this discussion in the hypothetical, then it can move forward. As soon as you start comparing the geth to computers you have started speaking hot air.  No argument where you compare the geth to a real world machine can succeed because both sides can say the other is ignorant when i fact the both are.  This post is for anyone who uses computers in their arguments, and is not limited to Commander fenix, Kraidy, and Ea James Madden.

Except that's exactly what the Geth are.  Advanced computers.  That's all VI's and AI's are.  The Geth are simply VI's that malfunctioned.  They are Skynet.  If you go ahead and watch T2 again, Arnold explains the situation with Skynet.  It became self-aware, we attempted to pull the plug, Skynet retaliated.  It's the exact same situation.  Except humanity didn't have space flight, so we were comdemned to fight to the last man, while the Quarians could run.

It's the exact same plot with a different ending due to different circumstances.

We don't even know if they use Binary, how can you compare them to our computers?  They could function in a completely different way. And while it is comparable to T2, that is still a work of fiction.  There are no AI's in the real world, and because of that none of us have the personal experience to argue that they are like computers.  

[GuardianAngel470]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

BigGuy28 wrote...

If I've learned anything from this thread it's, CmdrFenix83 has an irrational hatred for the Geth and he would make a terrible leader.

When you defuse this "super evil horrible act of unbelievable mistrust" Tali trusts him enough to give him info to send. Tali, a Quarian, can forgive this act why can't you?

It's irrational to distrust a race that has 100% of the time attempted to kill me?  Really?  This isn't like two enemies in a war shaking hands when it's over... they've attacked me on sight every single time.  That's a downright stupid statement.

Tali trusts *you*.  If you say it's ok, she'll go along with it.  She even points out her disapproval of having Legion on the team at all during this confrontation.  However, she trusts Shepard implicitly, just as my Shepard trusts her, Garrus, Joker, and Chakwas.  Hell, even Jacob proved himself more worthy of trust.  He's upfront about everything.

There's only two squadmates that have proven they can't be trusted.  Miranda and Legion.

It is irrational to instantly distrust an entire race for the mistakes of a few.  Rationally you know that the Heretics don't represent all geth.

[Solomen]

Seems some players hate geth more than the quarians do...

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
I'm not saying that him hacking Tali's omni tool was Justified, otherwise I would say what he did was right.  I acknowledge that his justifications weren't malicious, which is why I don't fault him overmuch.  I still say that he should have gone to shepard, and that he was compromising unit cohesion by his actions.  I'm just saying that because I knew that he had only good intentions and no one was hurt by it, I don't feel that he is any less deserving of trust.  

It's like if a ****** at work was plotting to do something horrible to you, frame you for a crime kind of horrible, and you got wind of it.  The right thing to do would be to alert the authorities or your bosses, but what you choose to do is hack their computer and try to steal information to frame them instead.  Does that make what you did with a preemptive strike right? No.  Am I going to fault you for trying to protect yourself? No, I'm not.

As I've stated already, I wouldn't have even let Legion have the option to defend himself.  His reasoning was irrelevant to me.  I was supicious of him despite him starting to earn some trust.  He's caught red-handed as a spy.  The second Tali stated, "I caught Legion scanning my omnitool!"  I would have stopped her right there and said, "Then shoot him."  After the events of ME1 and the time with Tali in ME2, I trust her completely.  She's even gone against her own people(Fraza's unit) to help Shepard.  She's proven herself completely in my Shepar'ds eyes.  If she caught him spying on her, that's all the proof I needed.

[DPSSOC]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Hell, even Jacob proved himself more worthy of trust.  He's upfront about everything.

If memory serves Legion says to you, "We anticipate the exchange of data" that's pretty up front.  Legion is essentially Johnny 5 in space if there is data he must acquire it, not his fault (I admit I'm making excuses here)

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
There's only two squadmates that have proven they can't be trusted.  Miranda and Legion.

I get why you don't trust Legion and I'm sure you mentioned it earlier, but what the hell did Miranda do?

[Solomen]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
I'm not saying that him hacking Tali's omni tool was Justified, otherwise I would say what he did was right.  I acknowledge that his justifications weren't malicious, which is why I don't fault him overmuch.  I still say that he should have gone to shepard, and that he was compromising unit cohesion by his actions.  I'm just saying that because I knew that he had only good intentions and no one was hurt by it, I don't feel that he is any less deserving of trust.  

It's like if a ****** at work was plotting to do something horrible to you, frame you for a crime kind of horrible, and you got wind of it.  The right thing to do would be to alert the authorities or your bosses, but what you choose to do is hack their computer and try to steal information to frame them instead.  Does that make what you did with a preemptive strike right? No.  Am I going to fault you for trying to protect yourself? No, I'm not.

As I've stated already, I wouldn't have even let Legion have the option to defend himself.  His reasoning was irrelevant to me.  I was supicious of him despite him starting to earn some trust.  He's caught red-handed as a spy.  The second Tali stated, "I caught Legion scanning my omnitool!"  I would have stopped her right there and said, "Then shoot him."  After the events of ME1 and the time with Tali in ME2, I trust her completely.  She's even gone against her own people(Fraza's unit) to help Shepard.  She's proven herself completely in my Shepar'ds eyes.  If she caught him spying on her, that's all the proof I needed.

Letting Tali shoot Geth as embodied by Legion would trigger the end of the quarian race. 

[CmdrFenix83]

Solomen wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Isn't it a little bit like blaming all Muslims, everywhere, for 9/11? We know they're not all bad, and God, it's easy to just lump them all together and be hostile toward the lot of them, but we know it's also wrong.

The ones responsible were just a small faction of "heretics" from a much larger group that we really know nothing about.

Has every Muslim you encountered tried to kill you?  No?  Then the comparison falls apart.

Every Geth you met *has* tried to kill you.  That's the difference.  Even the Krogan and Batarians have examples of individuals that at least don't shoot at you.  *Every* Geth prior to meeting Legion has shot at you.  Every. Single. One.  *That* is the difference.

The only reason the comparison falls apart is because I'm not in the military and haven't encountered hostile Muslim terrorists firsthand.

If I had been in the military and been on the warfront - like Shepard - it would be much the same.

Even if you were a soldier.  There are civilians and noncombatant.  I'm not saying you would blindly trust them, you might be suspicious, but I wouldn't be any more suspicious of them than I would of any Krogan or Batarian either.  The Geth are different.  100% of the encounters with them resulted in them shooting at you on sight.  Legion is the single anomoly in this equation.  How do you know this isn't just an attempt to change strategy?  You don't.  You just blindly accept it.

All in all it doesn't matter.  According to EDI Geth is the size of a galactic arm.  If the quarians go to war they will be exterminated.  Legion appears to be seeking a peaceful resolution.  I'd rather have both against the reapers than pick sides

Well depends.  In my game, Shepard has told her that if her father couldn't get her a home on the homeworld *he* would.  After all the favors Shepard did for Hackett in ME1, and all Shepard's done for the Council and everyone else... I'm certain he could call in some favors and mass a *massive* fleet to go wipe out these proven enemies to organics everywhere.

And before you go claiming the Geth there aren't responsible... the only evidence to support that claim is Legion... who has been executed on my ship for being a spy.

Granted, we're on rails here, as this is all a video game and not one with a real DM, so no one knows whether Legion is telling the truth or not but BioWare.

[BigGuy28]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

BigGuy28 wrote...

If I've learned anything from this thread it's, CmdrFenix83 has an irrational hatred for the Geth and he would make a terrible leader.

When you defuse this "super evil horrible act of unbelievable mistrust" Tali trusts him enough to give him info to send. Tali, a Quarian, can forgive this act why can't you?

It's irrational to distrust a race that has 100% of the time attempted to kill me?  Really?  This isn't like two enemies in a war shaking hands when it's over... they've attacked me on sight every single time.  That's a downright stupid statement.

Tali trusts *you*.  If you say it's ok, she'll go along with it.  She even points out her disapproval of having Legion on the team at all during this confrontation.  However, she trusts Shepard implicitly, just as my Shepard trusts her, Garrus, Joker, and Chakwas.  Hell, even Jacob proved himself more worthy of trust.  He's upfront about everything.

There's only two squadmates that have proven they can't be trusted.  Miranda and Legion.

Except for the fact that you have only enounctered "one" Geth and he saved your life, helped you complete the mission you were on and trusted you with the fate of the splinter group of his people. Yes it is irrational to hate an entire race and not trust any member of it because a few of them attacked you. Do you hate all Vorcha, Batarians, Krogan, Salarian, Asari, Turians and Humans too? Because some members of those races have tried to kill you many more times than the Heretics did.

Tali trusts Shepard yes thats true, but it also shows some trust toward Legion or at least being open to the idea of trusting him by backing down, seeing his point of view and giving him some information to send back. If you take the time to get to know these people you will find out that Miranda in the end is very trustworthy and in fact leaves Cerberus. But of course it's easier to make judgements based on what you think rather than learning the truth.

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
i would say that if Legion were trying to spy on the crew I gave him an extremely good opportunity.  I let him past EDI's firewalls.  If he were trying to spy on the crew he could hack EDI's logs of all her monitoring, upload them to the collective, and then be destroyed by shepard.  He would have month's worth of information to give to the collective, but he didn't.  It would be more expedient than staying quiet and hacking the odd omni tool.

And that is another reason I trust Legion.  because he didn't exploit a glaring lapse in defense when he had the chance.

*You* did.  I would never have given him the opportunity on my main Shepard.  I didn't trust him yet, why would I create an opportunity for him?

[CmdrFenix83]

Solomen wrote...
*cough*Jack*cough* *cough*Cerberus files*cough*

Jack asks for them and is given them freely.  I make no illusion that I'm loyal to Cerberus whatsoever.  Jack didn't go behind my back and hack Miranda's computer.  Friggin' huge difference.

[DPSSOC]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Well depends.  In my game, Shepard has told her that if her father couldn't get her a home on the homeworld *he* would.  After all the favors Shepard did for Hackett in ME1, and all Shepard's done for the Council and everyone else... I'm certain he could call in some favors and mass a *massive* fleet to go wipe out these proven enemies to organics everywhere.

Except that all evidence shows that Turians, Salarians, and Asari (or councillors at least) don't have a word for "gratitude".  As for the Alliance, they couldn't mobilize a fleet (or even a strike force) to investigate the mass abduction of their own people.  What, if anything, do you think they can or will contribute.

[CmdrFenix83]

Nightwriter wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Even if you were a soldier.  There are civilians and noncombatant.  I'm not saying you would blindly trust them, you might be suspicious, but I wouldn't be any more suspicious of them than I would of any Krogan or Batarian either.  The Geth are different.  100% of the encounters with them resulted in them shooting at you on sight.  Legion is the single anomoly in this equation.  How do you know this isn't just an attempt to change strategy?  You don't.  You just blindly accept it.

I accept it because I trust that in a story, when you meet a character whom the writers truly endear you toward, going out of their way to show you things from that character's perspective, make you feel for that character and second guess your preconceptions, they're probably not going to make that character into a complete traitor to stab you in the back.

You say, "Oh, you just like Legion, and that's your whole reasoning process"? Of course it is. I'm an imperfect human creature and I like him. Lots of people like Legion. In the real world this would have absolutely nothing to do with his trustworthiness. In a story it very much does.

So you do it because of metagame knowledge, the assumption that BioWare wouldn't screw you like that.  I roleplay my characters.  My main Shepard didn't even let Grunt out of his tank despite all the videos and the like showing him as a squadmate. 

Every single point I'm arguing is from my main Paragade Soldier manShep's perspective.

[Solomen]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Solomen wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Isn't it a little bit like blaming all Muslims, everywhere, for 9/11? We know they're not all bad, and God, it's easy to just lump them all together and be hostile toward the lot of them, but we know it's also wrong.

The ones responsible were just a small faction of "heretics" from a much larger group that we really know nothing about.

Has every Muslim you encountered tried to kill you?  No?  Then the comparison falls apart.

Every Geth you met *has* tried to kill you.  That's the difference.  Even the Krogan and Batarians have examples of individuals that at least don't shoot at you.  *Every* Geth prior to meeting Legion has shot at you.  Every. Single. One.  *That* is the difference.

The only reason the comparison falls apart is because I'm not in the military and haven't encountered hostile Muslim terrorists firsthand.

If I had been in the military and been on the warfront - like Shepard - it would be much the same.

Even if you were a soldier.  There are civilians and noncombatant.  I'm not saying you would blindly trust them, you might be suspicious, but I wouldn't be any more suspicious of them than I would of any Krogan or Batarian either.  The Geth are different.  100% of the encounters with them resulted in them shooting at you on sight.  Legion is the single anomoly in this equation.  How do you know this isn't just an attempt to change strategy?  You don't.  You just blindly accept it.

All in all it doesn't matter.  According to EDI Geth is the size of a galactic arm.  If the quarians go to war they will be exterminated.  Legion appears to be seeking a peaceful resolution.  I'd rather have both against the reapers than pick sides

Well depends.  In my game, Shepard has told her that if her father couldn't get her a home on the homeworld *he* would.  After all the favors Shepard did for Hackett in ME1, and all Shepard's done for the Council and everyone else... I'm certain he could call in some favors and mass a *massive* fleet to go wipe out these proven enemies to organics everywhere.

And before you go claiming the Geth there aren't responsible... the only evidence to support that claim is Legion... who has been executed on my ship for being a spy.

Granted, we're on rails here, as this is all a video game and not one with a real DM, so no one knows whether Legion is telling the truth or not but BioWare.

According to EDI, Geth is the size of a galactic arm.  Do you understand how many mobile platforms that is?  If Geth wanted to it could be a worse threat than the reapers.  Any fleet sent into geth space would be annihilated

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Shandepared wrote...

Saaen wrote...

The Quarians initiated an attack on the Geth and the Geth made them pay by hunting them down.
I like to think of it as Japan and the United States in WWII.
Japan attacked Pearl Harbor and the United States responded with pure, unrelenting force (Albiet a smaller scale)

It's a good thing for the Japanese that you weren't in charage of the American war effort then. To think people condemn the US for the atomic bombs. That would have been nothing compared to what you'd do.

Yeah this really isn't comparable to the US-Japanese conflict during WWII.  One includes the genocide and attempted genocide of two races and the other is just normal war.  The geth were wronged and they retaliated yes, but no race is justified in committing genocide.  That isn't to say I don't think the Quarians got what they deserved, but I that I think both sides were wrong.

I think the Quarians were justified in their attempts to prevent their machines from becoming sentient, but at the same time, I think the Geth were justified in defending themselves. 

[RyrineaNara]

I have to agree with the Geth on the MORNING WAR thing it what I would do, if I was about too be wiped out

Modifié par RyrineaNara, 02 avril 2010 - 11:29 .

[Nightwriter]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

So you do it because of metagame knowledge, the assumption that BioWare wouldn't screw you like that.  I roleplay my characters.  My main Shepard didn't even let Grunt out of his tank despite all the videos and the like showing him as a squadmate. 

Every single point I'm arguing is from my main Paragade Soldier manShep's perspective.

Bioware? No, all story writers. And I do pity you the loss of Grunt, missing out on a Bioware character is always tragic.

How about another analogy, since you love them so much? The Borg and Hugh.

By your reasoning, would you not, in fact, have killed Hugh?

[Vaenier]

I am disappointed in humans because of OP's racism. This race has no hope for a future. :'(

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

BigGuy28 wrote...

If I've learned anything from this thread it's, CmdrFenix83 has an irrational hatred for the Geth and he would make a terrible leader.

When you defuse this "super evil horrible act of unbelievable mistrust" Tali trusts him enough to give him info to send. Tali, a Quarian, can forgive this act why can't you?

It's irrational to distrust a race that has 100% of the time attempted to kill me?  Really?  This isn't like two enemies in a war shaking hands when it's over... they've attacked me on sight every single time.  That's a downright stupid statement.

Tali trusts *you*.  If you say it's ok, she'll go along with it.  She even points out her disapproval of having Legion on the team at all during this confrontation.  However, she trusts Shepard implicitly, just as my Shepard trusts her, Garrus, Joker, and Chakwas.  Hell, even Jacob proved himself more worthy of trust.  He's upfront about everything.

There's only two squadmates that have proven they can't be trusted.  Miranda and Legion.

It is irrational to instantly distrust an entire race for the mistakes of a few.  Rationally you know that the Heretics don't represent all geth.

"Mistakes of the few."  This isn't 'a few', this is ALL of them.  Every.  Single.  One.  Rationally, I know that Legion has made claims that there are factions of Geth.  Rationally(since there's no evidence other than his word), I don't trust him. 

Don't go citing codex entries either.  We've been over that in this very thread.  Codex entries can be contradicted by new ones.  Precedent was set for that with the Blue Suns.  You get one entry station how they were established, then after Zaeed's mission, you get a new one that rewrites it.  The current entries in-game are based off of what Legion has said.  There is no proof to anything he tells you, you simply have to take his word for it.

[Nightwriter]

Ugh. For Christ's sake.



If Legion is a spy working for the heretic geth, why the hell did he take you to a secret heretic base and give you the choice to wipe out a gigantic boatload of heretics?