587 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Oh, and just because someone CAN lie doesn't mean they are. By your logic you don't believe anything said by anybody you have ever met. You respond to "The sky is blue," with "No it isn't." You think that because your math and science teachers can lie that anything out of their mouths is a lie. This is all by your logic, if you want to rephrase be my guest.

I don't buy anything I'm told that doesn't seem reasonable.  Again, I gave Legion a bit of rope, but I was still suspicious of him because he was a Geth.  He was caught spying on a crewmember.  Trust destroyed.  The Geth is just a Geth Infiltrator(exactly what his class is and what he was designed for, infiltration).  Shot as such.

No, you weren't suspicious, I was suspicious. you were Prejudice, and judged a person based on a single action without listening to the persons justification for said action.

[CmdrFenix83]

Nightwriter wrote...

Fenix, how many geth could you kill in Legion's loyalty quest? He led you right to them, he gave you the option to wipe the whole lot of them out.

Why would he do that if he were a lying heretic spy?

You kill a few dozen platforms.  What evidence do you have that those were even Geth, and not VI's?  What evidence do you have that there was anything on those harddrives?  What evidence do you have that there was even anything in that station beyond the 2-3 floors we get to see, and are directed to by Legion?

This is all irrelevant anyway.  I was suspicous of Legion from the beginning, he's caught red-handed confirming those suspicions.

[Nibroc17]

Ea James Madden wrote...
Edit: I can understand how this could be misperceived but Here - The Geth can not venture beyond the veil due to not fuctioning properly.Quit assuming it was their choice.

Ps:Best estimates is the Geth have 5,000 to 10,000 ships.  +  According to Legion,  they are unable to operate correctly outside the Veil, with Legion itself being the sole exception.

Both proved here http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Geth

Uhh... the Geth can leave the veil anytime they want, just look at the Geth who attacked the Citadel. So your wrong.

[CmdrFenix83]

Cascadus wrote...

I just don't see the point in arguing anymore. This Fenix fellow made it clear that he didn't post his piece to be debated, and if it's his opinion that Legion is the absolute evil he is convinced he is, then let him. There's no point arguing this all, is it?
Oh wait. Internet. I forgot.

Actually, my post on the first page was meant to be a quick jab and I would be out.  I have a silly habit of replying to responses.  Plus I'm bored, and have nothing better to do right now.

[CmdrFenix83]

Nightwriter wrote...

You're saying "I'm not going to bother repeating it for you"? Oh, you're just intolerable. I don't even know what to say to you anymore, you're impossible and you won't hear reason. I give up and am just going to settle for this:

Not my responsibility to repeat myself if you're too dumb and or lazy to read the thread.

[BigGuy28]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

BigGuy28 wrote...

Except for the fact that you have only enounctered "one" Geth and he saved your life, helped you complete the mission you were on and trusted you with the fate of the splinter group of his people. Yes it is irrational to hate an entire race and not trust any member of it because a few of them attacked you. Do you hate all Vorcha, Batarians, Krogan, Salarian, Asari, Turians and Humans too? Because some members of those races have tried to kill you many more times than the Heretics did.

Tali trusts Shepard yes thats true, but it also shows some trust toward Legion or at least being open to the idea of trusting him by backing down, seeing his point of view and giving him some information to send back. If you take the time to get to know these people you will find out that Miranda in the end is very trustworthy and in fact leaves Cerberus. But of course it's easier to make judgements based on what you think rather than learning the truth.

And you're repeating the same things, and not listening to where I dismiss it.  The only proof that I've only encounted one 'Geth', as you put it, is in the words of a spy.  I have zero reason to believe anything he's stated.

I distrust all Vorcha, Batarians, and Krogan as well.  I would be very suspicious and watching them just as carefully as I did Legion.  Grunt got to sit in his little tank all game, as well. 

I find it hilarious when you call it 'hate'.  I don't 'hate' any race in the game.  I distrust those that have proven themselves to be hostile.  This includes Geth, Rachni, Batarians, Krogan, and Vorcha.  The other races, in general, have not been hostile to me, nor have histories of violent, aggressive behavior.  As such, I melted the Rachni Queen, blew up the Geth station, supported the Genophage and destroyed the cure, etc.

None of those races have proven themselves to be a benefit to the galaxy, and in fact have all proven to be violent and agressive.  Yes, that includes the Geth, who mercilessly butchered billions of men, women, and children in the Morning War as well as slaughter anyone that crosses inside the Veil.  Anyone.  Not just Quarians.

Trust is earned, not given.  Miranda and Legion were kept on a short leash precisely because I couldn't trust them as I could most of the rest of the crew.  I don't get the option of getting rid of Miranda prior as the little Cerberus spy she is, nor can I get rid of Legion.  Just the flaw of computer RPG's, you aren't allowed to play your own character, you get the 'illusion' of choice.  It's why half my characters end up set with the pure Paragon path as I treat the game like an elaborate shooter, because no matter what 'choices' you make, they aren't necessarily yours, and don't really matter in the end.

Wow all I can say is you are a horrible person and I'm glad that I don't know anyone like you. I give people a chance based on who they are, not what they are. If someone gives me a reason to not trust them I won't trust them until given a reason to trust them. And no, reading information off someone elses computer that is a member of the race that tried wiping out yours then planning to send said information to your people is not reason enough to not trust someone.

You hate the Geth (and yes it is clearly hate) because they defended themselves and killed people that attacked them, brilliant reason to hate someone really. You killed the Rachni Queen because.... ummm the galaxy faught them a long time ago and claimed they were bad without having the full story? Another brilliant plan, especially when she gave you no reason to distrust her. You blew up the Geth station because of your irrational hatred for them, I didn't even need to guess what you would do there.

You support the genophage because the Krogan were wrongfully brought into galactic society to fight a war that wasn't theirs, then had this terrible disease inflicted on them as their reward and quite rightly reacted badly to all this. Also some of their race is bad so yeah thats another reason to dislike them. Brilliant reasons for your dislikes so far.

You also dislike the Vorcha and Batarians because most of their members are bad. While I can't really fault you there because we haven't really seen any good members of their races but at the very least I would be willing to give them a chance where you wouldn't.

I end up with full Paragon and a bit Renagade on all my characters because that is who I am. I am willing to trust and give a chance to anyone until given a reason not to. I'm also willing to use those I don't trust for whatever I need them for. Legions little episode with Tali's omni-tool is not a good enough reason to not trust him.

As far as I'm concerned, as soon as that ship left the Cerberus facility it was my ship and my crew. I used TIM to get information that no one else would be able to get for me in such a timely manner, soon as I didn't need him anymore I was done with him unless he wanted to keep working for me.

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...



You're saying "I'm not going to bother repeating it for you"? Oh, you're just intolerable. I don't even know what to say to you anymore, you're impossible and you won't hear reason. I give up and am just going to settle for this:

Not my responsibility to repeat myself if you're too dumb and or lazy to read the thread.

That's not exactly fair. The thread is fairly long and trying to find the few posts in which you mention this would be difficult. If you're going to have a debate, at least have the courtesy to repeat your argument when asked.

[Nightwriter]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

You're saying "I'm not going to bother repeating it for you"? Oh, you're just intolerable. I don't even know what to say to you anymore, you're impossible and you won't hear reason. I give up and am just going to settle for this:

Not my responsibility to repeat myself if you're too dumb and or lazy to read the thread.

I was actually just looking it up, but for that here comes another one out of spite, you knave!

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
I was too. When I got to the part where you have to let him through the firewalls the first time I honestly sat there weighing my options. I didn't fully trust him at this point, and I went out on a limb and gave him a chance.  He proved he could be trusted by not trying to hack EDI, and after that I trusted him completely. 

You never gave him a chance to redeem himself, or even prove himself.  You took a single action that was done with good intentions (Which you refused to see) and called him a liar and a spy. You created a two dimensional image of a person and judged him by it.  

Your point?  I never denied that.  In fact I've said just that.  I know liars.  People that spindocter stories on a daily basis.  As a result, I question the validity of *everything* I'm told.  Doesn't help when the government and news stations are all constantly being caught in lies. 

So look at it this way;  Legion, the first of a member of a known, hostile race that doesn't try to you, is brought onto your ship.  You activate him out of curiosity for his actions on the derelict.  He tells you a story and gives you a target that will presumably crush the remaining Geth resistance.  Hesitantly, you agree and risk heading for this station to investigate.  You fight Geth platforms that look no different than Legion himself, except that Legion's damaged and wearing some of your armor.  You get to the control area and rig the station to self-destruct.  After fleeing the area, this same member is caught spying on another crew member. 

^^  That right there is exactly how my interactions with Legion went.  He's guilty, and doesn't even deny it.  Instead he attempts to rationalize it.  You aren't given the option of asking *why* he was spying on her to begin with.  All you get is what his reaction was to what he found.  Nothing he says justified his actions leading up to the confrontation.  Nor are you given any reason to trust him beyond his word.  I would have shot him.

[CmdrFenix83]

wiggles89 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

The Geth were the Reaper's soldiers.

No, a type of Geth fought for the Reapers.

You have no proof of that beyond Legion's word.  A word I don't trust.

[RyrineaNara]

Nightwriter wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

You're saying "I'm not going to bother repeating it for you"? Oh, you're just intolerable. I don't even know what to say to you anymore, you're impossible and you won't hear reason. I give up and am just going to settle for this:

Not my responsibility to repeat myself if you're too dumb and or lazy to read the thread.

I was actually just looking it up, but for that here comes another one out of spite, you knave!

I love that it soo cute lol.

[GuardianAngel470]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
I was too. When I got to the part where you have to let him through the firewalls the first time I honestly sat there weighing my options. I didn't fully trust him at this point, and I went out on a limb and gave him a chance.  He proved he could be trusted by not trying to hack EDI, and after that I trusted him completely. 

You never gave him a chance to redeem himself, or even prove himself.  You took a single action that was done with good intentions (Which you refused to see) and called him a liar and a spy. You created a two dimensional image of a person and judged him by it.  

Your point?  I never denied that.  In fact I've said just that.  I know liars.  People that spindocter stories on a daily basis.  As a result, I question the validity of *everything* I'm told.  Doesn't help when the government and news stations are all constantly being caught in lies. 

So look at it this way;  Legion, the first of a member of a known, hostile race that doesn't try to you, is brought onto your ship.  You activate him out of curiosity for his actions on the derelict.  He tells you a story and gives you a target that will presumably crush the remaining Geth resistance.  Hesitantly, you agree and risk heading for this station to investigate.  You fight Geth platforms that look no different than Legion himself, except that Legion's damaged and wearing some of your armor.  You get to the control area and rig the station to self-destruct.  After fleeing the area, this same member is caught spying on another crew member. 

^^  That right there is exactly how my interactions with Legion went.  He's guilty, and doesn't even deny it.  Instead he attempts to rationalize it.  You aren't given the option of asking *why* he was spying on her to begin with.  All you get is what his reaction was to what he found.  Nothing he says justified his actions leading up to the confrontation.  Nor are you given any reason to trust him beyond his word.  I would have shot him.

If you are going to account an occurence, finish it. 

"...Caught spying on a crew member.  You question him and he tells you that he did it in an interest to  protect his people.  You defuse the situation and the spied on crew member gives Legion information anyways as a gesture of good will."

If Tali, who has way more reason to be suspicious of the geth as she fought them when you fought them in addition to having her entire race decimated and exiled, can see past the action at the intent, then you should copy her.  She is the person you should emulate.

Modifié par GuardianAngel470, 03 avril 2010 - 12:27 .

[ATKT]

I want to put my opinion into this thread, but every time I set my fingers to type my opinion changes.

On the one hand, the geth are not life as you know it, and treating them as such isn't right. They violently displaced an organic race that was created with the universe (I know, "created"...just bear with me). There are no individual geth, except Legion, who is still a part of a network. The geth have shown that they are very dangerous, and can be used as weapons given the right tools (i.e. a Reaper-engineered virus). Re-engineering that virus is basically brainwashing--the geth you are rewriting did not reach the conclusion you are forcing upon them on their own, even though they did not choose the Reapers on their own either.Their existence is at the hands of an organic race--an imperfect organic race, thereby implying their imperfection.

On the other hand, the quarians did try to wipe out what is basically a sentient race, which is currently evolving, producing new technology, and learning how to create individuals like Legion. That group of "true" geth are trying to create their own civilization with their unique method of thought.

I guess my final opinion would be that they deserve the same level of respect as any organic race, but should not be thought of the way we would think of turians or asari. We should not assume they are peaceful, but they aren't evil by nature. There is nothing in the geth's conscience telling them they shouldn't eventually take over the galaxy.

In Legion's loyalty mission, I choose to blow them up since they pose a threat even if rewritten. I also killed the Rachni queen for a similar reason; they have proven that other beings can manipulate them (Reapers in this case, although you never find out unless you spare the queen), and there is nothing saying that will simply find a spot in the galaxy to begin building their fleets to fight the same war again.

[Nightwriter]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

The Geth were the Reaper's soldiers.

No, a type of Geth fought for the Reapers.

You have no proof of that beyond Legion's word.  A word I don't trust.

Just as we have no proof that he is telling the truth, you have no proof that he is not. He deserves the benefit of the doubt from you. Because you simply do not know.

The case with Legion and Tali's omnitool is not enough to just completely destroy that chance you're giving him. What he did could even be excused as being culture shock - do you think Legion, having spent his entire existence as part of an AI collective where all minds are joined and information is universally shared, would understand the concept of human boundaries, of privacy or guarded information? Do you think he would understand that what he did was wrong?

And so you dismiss him for simply being the way he is and not knowing better, for trying to defend his own race.

[BigGuy28]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...
I was too. When I got to the part where you have to let him through the firewalls the first time I honestly sat there weighing my options. I didn't fully trust him at this point, and I went out on a limb and gave him a chance.  He proved he could be trusted by not trying to hack EDI, and after that I trusted him completely. 

You never gave him a chance to redeem himself, or even prove himself.  You took a single action that was done with good intentions (Which you refused to see) and called him a liar and a spy. You created a two dimensional image of a person and judged him by it.  

Your point?  I never denied that.  In fact I've said just that.  I know liars.  People that spindocter stories on a daily basis.  As a result, I question the validity of *everything* I'm told.  Doesn't help when the government and news stations are all constantly being caught in lies. 

So look at it this way;  Legion, the first of a member of a known, hostile race that doesn't try to you, is brought onto your ship.  You activate him out of curiosity for his actions on the derelict.  He tells you a story and gives you a target that will presumably crush the remaining Geth resistance.  Hesitantly, you agree and risk heading for this station to investigate.  You fight Geth platforms that look no different than Legion himself, except that Legion's damaged and wearing some of your armor.  You get to the control area and rig the station to self-destruct.  After fleeing the area, this same member is caught spying on another crew member. 

^^  That right there is exactly how my interactions with Legion went.  He's guilty, and doesn't even deny it.  Instead he attempts to rationalize it.  You aren't given the option of asking *why* he was spying on her to begin with.  All you get is what his reaction was to what he found.  Nothing he says justified his actions leading up to the confrontation.  Nor are you given any reason to trust him beyond his word.  I would have shot him.

If you are going to account an occurence, finish it. 

"...Caught spying on a crew member.  You question him and he tells you that he did it in an interest to  protect his people.  You defuse the situation and the spied on crew member gives Legion information anyways as a gesture of good will."

If Tali, who has way more reason to be suspicious of the geth as she fought them when you fought them in addition to having her entire race decimated and exiled, can see past the action at the intent, then you should copy her.  She is the person you should emulate.

Except he always sides with Tali and tells Legion to back down, he hates the Geth so won't give them any chance at all and is looking for any reason at all to shoot them or point and say "See look you can't trust them!"

[Nightwriter]

RyrineaNara wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

You're saying "I'm not going to bother repeating it for you"? Oh, you're just intolerable. I don't even know what to say to you anymore, you're impossible and you won't hear reason. I give up and am just going to settle for this:

Not my responsibility to repeat myself if you're too dumb and or lazy to read the thread.

I was actually just looking it up, but for that here comes another one out of spite, you knave!

I love that it soo cute lol.

Ah thank you.

I thought so too.

[Internet Kraken]

wiggles89 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

The Geth were the Reaper's soldiers.

No, a type of Geth fought for the Reapers.

You have no proof of that beyond Legion's word.  A word I don't trust.

Uh yeah, I do. Y'know Legion's loyalty mission where you destroy a few Geth? Y'know how you can take it on Tali's recruitment & loyalty mission & destroy a few Geth? From this you have two conclusions: a) there are different sorts of Geth or  Geth have a Saw fetish which is why Legion helped you destroy all those Geth.

His justification is that they are not "real" Geth, but rather VI
controlled Geth duplicates. The heretic base you destroy isn't a real
base but rather a fake one designed to fool Shepard into trusting
Legion. It's all an elaborate charade designed to trick you.

I'm just posting that in case he decides to not respost it again.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 03 avril 2010 - 12:41 .

[Solomen]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Solomen wrote...

According to EDI, Geth is the size of a galactic arm.  Do you understand how many mobile platforms that is?  If Geth wanted to it could be a worse threat than the reapers.  Any fleet sent into geth space would be annihilated

Geth *Space* is that big.  Resources are still limited within, and they've been isolated there for 300 years.

No GETH is that big.  EDI confirmed an intelligence the size of a whole galactic arm.

[Nightwriter]

How big is a galactic arm?

[GuardianAngel470]

Solomen wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Solomen wrote...

According to EDI, Geth is the size of a galactic arm.  Do you understand how many mobile platforms that is?  If Geth wanted to it could be a worse threat than the reapers.  Any fleet sent into geth space would be annihilated

Geth *Space* is that big.  Resources are still limited within, and they've been isolated there for 300 years.

No GETH is that big.  EDI confirmed an intelligence the size of a whole galactic arm.

You're both wrong. that was just an analogy EDI used to describe the vastness of the mind.  She didn't mean it literally.

[CmdrFenix83]

BigGuy28 wrote...

Wow all I can say is you are a horrible person and I'm glad that I don't know anyone like you. I give people a chance based on who they are, not what they are. If someone gives me a reason to not trust them I won't trust them until given a reason to trust them. And no, reading information off someone elses computer that is a member of the race that tried wiping out yours then planning to send said information to your people is not reason enough to not trust someone.

The Geth tried to help the Reapers wipe out *all* life in the galaxy, yet you don't see anyone going behind Legion's back and attempting to steal data from his memory core, do you?

You hate the Geth (and yes it is clearly hate) because they defended themselves and killed people that attacked them, brilliant reason to hate someone really. You killed the Rachni Queen because.... ummm the galaxy faught them a long time ago and claimed they were bad without having the full story? Another brilliant plan, especially when she gave you no reason to distrust her. You blew up the Geth station because of your irrational hatred for them, I didn't even need to guess what you would do there.

I killed the Rachni Queen because of their history.  The moment the relay was opened to their section of space, they attacked immediately.  Don't blame me because you're ignorant of the story.  You have no evidence that the Rachni are anything but the violent, aggressive species that the galaxy knows them to be.  In ME2, we find out that this all happened because they were indoctrinated.  However, that is *impossible* to know at the time.  Unlike you idealists, I made decisions based on what I think is best for the galaxy as a whole.  Not the paragon points.

The Geth on the station were destroyed for a a few reasons.  One, even Legion says there is no guarantee that they won't come to their old conclusion again to worship the Reapers.  Two, brainwashing a race is the same thing as indoctrination, and I wouldn't do that to anyone.  Three, if these Geth rejoin the main group with their experiences, it's possible that the experience of the shared memories could result in *all* Geth suddenly agreeing with the 'heretic' point of view and moving to assist the Reapers.  Finally, if the Geth and Quarians do engage in war, I don't want to make the Geth *more* powerful.

Hell, half of my pure Paragon chatacters blow up the station for the same reasons.

You support the genophage because the Krogan were wrongfully brought into galactic society to fight a war that wasn't theirs, then had this terrible disease inflicted on them as their reward and quite rightly reacted badly to all this. Also some of their race is bad so yeah thats another reason to dislike them. Brilliant reasons for your dislikes so far.

The reasoning for the swelling of the Krogan numbers is irrelevant.  I can't undo what the past caused.  I have to deal with the situation at hand.  In this case, the Genophage is the only possibility to prevent another Krogan rebellion that would result in either their genocide, our genocide or enslavement, or a perpetual cycle of war where we constantly beat the Krogan back.  Everything in the Krogan history supports the model that they will rebel again if their numbers swell.  Ignoring this is just naive idealism.

It would be wonderful if that weren't the case, and perhaps it will be, under Wrex, but as the current state of the Krogan proves that they're just as violent and bloodthirsty as ever.  Imagine if Clan Werloc had gotten the cure?  That's *exactly* what will happen if Wrex cannot completely revamp the way of the Krogan.

You also dislike the Vorcha and Batarians because most of their members are bad. While I can't really fault you there because we haven't really seen any good members of their races but at the very least I would be willing to give them a chance where you wouldn't.

Batarians are responsible for Elysium, Torfan, and Mindoir.  That's two possible career histories and a background for Shepard.  My main is an Earthborn War Hero.  Elysium was because of the Batarians, as was X57.  There are very few Batarians that *don't* try and attack you.

Vorcha are similar to Krogan.  Every example we've seen shows them as hostile except the pair on Omega claiming they didn't kill anyone on the current day.  Other than that, they're just aggressive enemy people.  I have zero reason to trust any of thse races.  Wrex was an outlier from them, and seems to be genuinely trying to help the Krogan people become more. 

I end up with full Paragon and a bit Renagade on all my characters because that is who I am. I am willing to trust and give a chance to anyone until given a reason not to. I'm also willing to use those I don't trust for whatever I need them for. Legions little episode with Tali's omni-tool is not a good enough reason to not trust him.

I end up with a *full* Paragon bar with a little Renegade on all my characters too.  My main and one other paragade have a bit more Renegade than the rest.  I've cleared the game 10 times with 9 characters.  According to your last statement there, you're more ready to use and manipulate people you don't trust, while I don't want them around.  Either through killing them, or kicking them off the ship.  In my eyes, you wanting to use and manipulate people is far more unethical.  By the way, people like you are the reason for such distrust being a part of my personality.

As far as I'm concerned, as soon as that ship left the Cerberus facility it was my ship and my crew. I used TIM to get information that no one else would be able to get for me in such a timely manner, soon as I didn't need him anymore I was done with him unless he wanted to keep working for me.

It was similar for myself, except TIM was a necessary evil and an ally I fully expected to betray me.  I didn't trust him in the slightest.  I don't *use* people, and in fact find the thought downright dispicable.

[CmdrFenix83]

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

You're saying "I'm not going to bother repeating it for you"? Oh, you're just intolerable. I don't even know what to say to you anymore, you're impossible and you won't hear reason. I give up and am just going to settle for this:

Not my responsibility to repeat myself if you're too dumb and or lazy to read the thread.

That's not exactly fair. The thread is fairly long and trying to find the few posts in which you mention this would be difficult. If you're going to have a debate, at least have the courtesy to repeat your argument when asked.

Why?  When I enter a new thread and wish to join in to the topic, I read the thread.  I've repeated it several times, I'm not going to again.

[GuardianAngel470]

Little off topic, but what do you think of the Tali thread, Fenix?