587 réponses à ce sujet

[RyrineaNara]

 From what I have learned from Nasa the galactic arms for the Milky way is about 12,000 ly (1×1017 km) is the  which is twice the size of the accepted value. However, I'm not sure about the Mass Effect estimates.

Modifié par RyrineaNara, 03 avril 2010 - 12:52 .

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...I

f you are going to account an occurence, finish it. 

"...Caught spying on a crew member.  You question him and he tells you that he did it in an interest to  protect his people.  You defuse the situation and the spied on crew member gives Legion information anyways as a gesture of good will."

If Tali, who has way more reason to be suspicious of the geth as she fought them when you fought them in addition to having her entire race decimated and exiled, can see past the action at the intent, then you should copy her.  She is the person you should emulate.

That is *not* what happens.  That's his *reaction* to the data.  No where does he say that he was spying on her for that data.  No where.  That is an assumption on your part. 

Tali only accepts your decision because you're Shepard.  In fact she finally shows disapproval of having Legion on board at all.  If I had had an option to get rid of Legion other than giving it to Cerberus, I would have taken it before even activating him. 

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...



You're saying "I'm not going to bother repeating it for you"? Oh, you're just intolerable. I don't even know what to say to you anymore, you're impossible and you won't hear reason. I give up and am just going to settle for this:

Not my responsibility to repeat myself if you're too dumb and or lazy to read the thread.

That's not exactly fair. The thread is fairly long and trying to find the few posts in which you mention this would be difficult. If you're going to have a debate, at least have the courtesy to repeat your argument when asked.

Why? When I enter a new thread and wish to join in to the topic, I read the thread. I've repeated it several times, I'm not going to again.

Because it's just common courtesy. Considering how long the thread is and how many lengthy posts it contains, I can understand someone missing one part of it. Plus you could just easily copy/paste the post.

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

That is *not* what happens.  That's his *reaction* to the data.  No where does he say that he was spying on her for that data.  No where.  That is an assumption on your part. 

But you're making an assumption as well. You're assuming that absolutely nobody on the ship mentioned the details of the migrant fleet to Legion, either directly or indirectly. You're also assuming that Legion is to stupid to figure it out on his own and that the only way he could have learned about it was by hacking Tali's omnitool.

[CmdrFenix83]

Nightwriter wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

wiggles89 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

The Geth were the Reaper's soldiers.

No, a type of Geth fought for the Reapers.

You have no proof of that beyond Legion's word.  A word I don't trust.

Just as we have no proof that he is telling the truth, you have no proof that he is not. He deserves the benefit of the doubt from you. Because you simply do not know.

The case with Legion and Tali's omnitool is not enough to just completely destroy that chance you're giving him. What he did could even be excused as being culture shock - do you think Legion, having spent his entire existence as part of an AI collective where all minds are joined and information is universally shared, would understand the concept of human boundaries, of privacy or guarded information? Do you think he would understand that what he did was wrong?

And so you dismiss him for simply being the way he is and not knowing better, for trying to defend his own race.

That's exactly my point.  I wouldn't trust the word of a race that has 100% of the time attacked Shepard, invaded Council space, and just lost.  They lost the war due to Shepard's actions.  I can see that this might simply be a change in tactics, since they know they cannot win a frontline war.

I believed he might be a spy from the moment I activated him.  He proved me right. 

I said like 7 pages ago that I agree that Legion is *probably* being 100% truthful, and repeated that today.  *Nothing* we've discussed in these twenty pages has changed my original point on the thread's topic from my first post.  People are assuming the Geth are peaceful, because they believe Legion.  Why do they believe Legion?  They like him, so they want to believe him.  Period.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 03 avril 2010 - 01:08 .

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Why do they believe Legion? They like him, so they want to believe him. Period.

And you don't believe Legion because you don't like him. You're reason for not trusting him is not any more rational or logical than any reasons to trust him.

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Little off topic, but what do you think of the Tali thread, Fenix?

That 4000+ page monstrosity?  I avoid it like the plague.  I think I've poked my head in once and looked at some of the artwork on the first post... but I've done the same with the Miranda and Jack threads as well.

That thread is the reason many people hate Tali.  Just like the arguments in these Quarian vs Geth threads based on nothing more than their love of Legion made me go from loving him to hating him.  Least the Tali worshippers stick to their own thread.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 03 avril 2010 - 01:02 .

[Fromyou]

if someone said they were going to kill you and your family won't you hold a grudge for generations. then there is this one guy who wants to change it

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Little off topic, but what do you think of the Tali thread, Fenix?

That 4000+ page monstrosity?  I avoid it like the plague.  I think I've poked my head in once and looked at some of the artwork on the first post... but I've done the same with the Miranda and Jack threads as well.

That thread is the reason many people hate Tali.  Just like the arguments in these Quarian vs Geth threads based on nothing more than their love of Legion made me go from loving him to hating him.  Least the Tali worshippers stick to their own thread.

And you think some people's belief that the Geth should be wiped out isn't at all influenced by their love of Tali?

[BigGuy28]

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

That is *not* what happens.  That's his *reaction* to the data.  No where does he say that he was spying on her for that data.  No where.  That is an assumption on your part. 

But you're making an assumption as well. You're assuming that absolutely nobody on the ship mentioned the details of the migrant fleet to Legion, either directly or indirectly. You're also assuming that Legion is to stupid to figure it out on his own and that the only way he could have learned about it was by hacking Tali's omnitool.

Honestly I think Legion got into just about everyone’s omni-tools and computers, or at least a lot of people before Tali noticed and called him on it. He wasn't doing it to spy, he wasn't doing it for any malicious reason at all. The Geth are simply curious about the galaxy’s inhabitants and he accessed the information without the knowledge that it might be considered wrong for him to do it without permission. Remember, Geth share everything, there is no reason for him to think that everyone else on his new crew would be any different. Soon as he learns this new information he would know not to do that anymore. He found information that indicated the Quarians might be preparing for war with the Geth and rightfully was going to send the information to them.

Course if you actually give him a chance he learns that it's not really a good thing he did and he agrees to not send it. Tali also agrees to give him some information to send showing a sign of trust and not just trust for Shepard but a willingness to give Legion a chance.

Modifié par BigGuy28, 03 avril 2010 - 01:09 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

That is *not* what happens.  That's his *reaction* to the data.  No where does he say that he was spying on her for that data.  No where.  That is an assumption on your part. 

But you're making an assumption as well. You're assuming that absolutely nobody on the ship mentioned the details of the migrant fleet to Legion, either directly or indirectly. You're also assuming that Legion is to stupid to figure it out on his own and that the only way he could have learned about it was by hacking Tali's omnitool.

I'm only going on the data we're given.  As I've said, if the situation had been reversed, Tali would have been reprimanded for spying on a crewmember.  She's still guilty, but I can trust her from having spent all of the months of ME1 and however long ME2 was together.

I can understand what Legion was doing.  However, I don't condone it, nor did I trust him.  The new guy on the ship is spying on another one.  Worse yet, this guy is part of a group that has been trying to kill us for... what, 3 years?  The events in ME1 span over many months, plus the two years they were being beaten back while Shepard was dead... so about 3 years.

In three years, one of them has done something different.  He earned tentative trust at best, and threw it away.

[Solomen]

Maybe I shouldn't play ME1... If it does 'this' to people.

[CmdrFenix83]

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
Why do they believe Legion? They like him, so they want to believe him. Period.

And you don't believe Legion because you don't like him. You're reason for not trusting him is not any more rational or logical than any reasons to trust him.

No, I don't believe him because he's a Geth.  A race that's been trying to kill me ever since I first set down in Eden Prime.  *That* was why I didn't tryst him.  I loved his character, and find him incredibly useful in game-terms.  I even wish it was possible to recruit him earlier without losing the crew.  Legion fanboys completely ignoring the Quarian POV in the Morning War annoyed the hell out of me.  That hatred has been projected onto Legion.  I understand both sides of that story, and didn't fault either of them for the initial actions.  My hatred of the character may be irrational, but the playthrough at hand and my rationale behind the decisions happened before, when I actually liked Legion.

[RyrineaNara]

Solomen wrote...

Maybe I shouldn't play ME1... If it does 'this' to people.

Not really, I played ME1 first, and still don't hate the Geth. :happy:

[Nightwriter]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

That's exactly my point.  I wouldn't trust the word of a race that has 100% of the time attacked Shepard, invaded Council space, and just lost.  They lost the war due to Shepard's actions.  I can see that this might simply be a change in tactics, since they know they cannot win a frontline war.

I believed he might be a spy from the moment I activated him.  He proved me right. 

I said like 7 pages ago that I agree that Legion is *probably* being 100% truthful, and repeated that today.  *Nothing* we've discussed in these twenty pages has changed my original point on the thread's topic from my first post.  People are assuming the Geth are peaceful, because they believe Legion.  Why do they believe Legion?  They like him, so they want to believe him.  Period.

They attack YOU 100% of the time. But it's not the geth's fault you've never been beyond the Veil, or that the only geth who the galaxy gets to see are the hostile ones.

You're stuck on your own experiences. Just because you, personally, have only ever seen hostile geth, you would submit that all geth everywhere are universally bad because your experience is law.

[BigGuy28]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Little off topic, but what do you think of the Tali thread, Fenix?

That 4000+ page monstrosity?  I avoid it like the plague.  I think I've poked my head in once and looked at some of the artwork on the first post... but I've done the same with the Miranda and Jack threads as well.

That thread is the reason many people hate Tali.  Just like the arguments in these Quarian vs Geth threads based on nothing more than their love of Legion made me go from loving him to hating him.  Least the Tali worshippers stick to their own thread.

Something I can partly agree with you on here. The Tali thread is horrifying and is a big reason why I am embarrassed to admit I am a fan of Tali. I've seen things in the Tali threads that will scar me for life.

[CmdrFenix83]

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Little off topic, but what do you think of the Tali thread, Fenix?

That 4000+ page monstrosity?  I avoid it like the plague.  I think I've poked my head in once and looked at some of the artwork on the first post... but I've done the same with the Miranda and Jack threads as well.

That thread is the reason many people hate Tali.  Just like the arguments in these Quarian vs Geth threads based on nothing more than their love of Legion made me go from loving him to hating him.  Least the Tali worshippers stick to their own thread.

And you think some people's belief that the Geth should be wiped out isn't at all influenced by their love of Tali?

I didn't say that, did I?  All I've said was that I don't trust Legion do to my experiences and history in encounters with Geth.  I can't fathom why that comes off as 'irrational', when it's downright logical.  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over expecting a different result.  Encounting a Geth and expecting anything but an enemy is the same thing. 

I *expected* an enemy spy.  I was beginning to trust him, Legion was proving himself just fine... then he's caught... being a spy...

[RyrineaNara]

BigGuy28 wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Little off topic, but what do you think of the Tali thread, Fenix?

That 4000+ page monstrosity?  I avoid it like the plague.  I think I've poked my head in once and looked at some of the artwork on the first post... but I've done the same with the Miranda and Jack threads as well.

That thread is the reason many people hate Tali.  Just like the arguments in these Quarian vs Geth threads based on nothing more than their love of Legion made me go from loving him to hating him.  Least the Tali worshippers stick to their own thread.

Something I can partly agree with you on here. The Tali thread is horrifying and is a big reason why I am embarrassed to admit I am a fan of Tali. I've seen things in the Tali threads that will scar me for life.

Sometime I too am embarrassed as well to admit that I am a Tali fan, but I'm also a Legion fan as well.

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Why do they believe Legion? They like him, so they want to believe him. Period.

And you don't believe Legion because you don't like him. You're reason for not trusting him is not any more rational or logical than any reasons to trust him.

No, I don't believe him because he's a Geth. A race that's been trying to kill me ever since I first set down in Eden Prime. *That* was why I didn't tryst him. I loved his character, and find him incredibly useful in game-terms. I even wish it was possible to recruit him earlier without losing the crew. Legion fanboys completely ignoring the Quarian POV in the Morning War annoyed the hell out of me. That hatred has been projected onto Legion. I understand both sides of that story, and didn't fault either of them for the initial actions. My hatred of the character may be irrational, but the playthrough at hand and my rationale behind the decisions happened before, when I actually liked Legion.

You don't see the problem with this logic? You don't trust Legion because he is a Geth. But not all Geth are the same. The true Geth have not been trying to kill you, so distrusting Legion based on the actions of heretics makes no sense. Unless you don't believe Legion when he says that not all Geth are the same, but you only wouldn't believe him if you dislike him.



Also you should hate Tali if your reason for disliking Legion is because of his fans. Both fans are biased towards their preferred character, and this will affect their opinion in the Geth vs. Quarian debate. I myself will admit to also being subject to this, but it is not the sole reason behind my position in that debate. I never thought the Quarian's actions towards the Geth were appropriate, even before Mass Effect 2.

[CmdrFenix83]

Nightwriter wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

That's exactly my point.  I wouldn't trust the word of a race that has 100% of the time attacked Shepard, invaded Council space, and just lost.  They lost the war due to Shepard's actions.  I can see that this might simply be a change in tactics, since they know they cannot win a frontline war.

I believed he might be a spy from the moment I activated him.  He proved me right. 

I said like 7 pages ago that I agree that Legion is *probably* being 100% truthful, and repeated that today.  *Nothing* we've discussed in these twenty pages has changed my original point on the thread's topic from my first post.  People are assuming the Geth are peaceful, because they believe Legion.  Why do they believe Legion?  They like him, so they want to believe him.  Period.

They attack YOU 100% of the time. But it's not the geth's fault you've never been beyond the Veil, or that the only geth who the galaxy gets to see are the hostile ones.

You're stuck on your own experiences. Just because you, personally, have only ever seen hostile geth, you would submit that all geth everywhere are universally bad because your experience is law.

Actually, we did go behind the Veil.  We landed on Haestorm, remember?  They shot on sight.  No individual that has entered the Veil has survived(Aside from Saren) prior to Haestrom... and we only lived because Shepard's a badass.

This isn't simply personal experience here.  Not one encounter with the Geth in the past 300 years has been peaceful.  The Geth have killed all of them.  Please see the definition of insanity in my post above.

[Solomen]

Xen is trolling the boards...

[DPSSOC]

Solomen wrote...

Maybe I shouldn't play ME1... If it does 'this' to people.

It can do this to people.  People who play ME2 before ME1 have the gift of foresight ME1 firsters didn't have.  Now when I played ME1 I was a bit more charitable towards the Geth, and Cerberus, than most people seemed to be.  Mainly because I didn't start paying attention to what the Geth really were, may as well have been zombies or mutants, until I talked to Tali about the Geth, and that just put me in the entirely wrong mind set for Geth hate.  Look at it like this essentially the first thing I'm told about the Geth is that they were essentially designed as slave labour (they were machines so it was ok) and when they started to show signs of sentience the Quarians tried to wipe them out.  I literally screamed at my TV "YOU DID WHAT?!  AND YOU BLAME THEM?!"  So I entered the whole thing with a different attitude than most, seeing the Quarians as pricks who got what was coming to them rather than victims.

My main reason for believing the Geth are mostly peaceful, or at least indifferent, is that in 300 years they have not taken any action against organic races outside the Veil.  They've been content to live and let live only attacking those who enter their space, understandable considering the only organics they've ever encountered tried to kill them all.  It was only until the arrival of Sovereign that some of them came out and started attacking.  So from my perspective it took an entity taking the place of God to provoke them to violence, to me that speaks to a mostly peaceful nature.

That was why I didn't hate them in ME1, it's why I don't hate them in ME2, it's why I gave Legion the same trust, respect, and lenience I gave to all the other murderers, thieves, terrorists, and psychopaths I picked up. 

[Nightwriter]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Actually, we did go behind the Veil.  We landed on Haestorm, remember? 

... Which was occupied by heretic geth.

They shot on sight.  No individual that has entered the Veil has survived(Aside from Saren) prior to Haestrom... and we only lived because Shepard's a badass.

This isn't simply personal experience here.  Not one encounter with the Geth in the past 300 years has been peaceful.  The Geth have killed all of them.  Please see the definition of insanity in my post above.

We've proven, have we not, that the Veil is inhabited by true geth and heretic geth alike? How do you know that the people who have passed through the Veil before weren't killed by heretic geth who inhabit the fringes of the Veil, long before the true geth even find out?

[GuardianAngel470]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

GuardianAngel470 wrote...I

f you are going to account an occurence, finish it. 

"...Caught spying on a crew member.  You question him and he tells you that he did it in an interest to  protect his people.  You defuse the situation and the spied on crew member gives Legion information anyways as a gesture of good will."

If Tali, who has way more reason to be suspicious of the geth as she fought them when you fought them in addition to having her entire race decimated and exiled, can see past the action at the intent, then you should copy her.  She is the person you should emulate.

That is *not* what happens.  That's his *reaction* to the data.  No where does he say that he was spying on her for that data.  No where.  That is an assumption on your part. 

Tali only accepts your decision because you're Shepard.  In fact she finally shows disapproval of having Legion on board at all.  If I had had an option to get rid of Legion other than giving it to Cerberus, I would have taken it before even activating him. 

What are you talking about?  He tells you that he did it for his people.  

It doesn't even matter because Tali's reaction is the most important part.  She accepted his rationale and gave him non-classified data.  If you think what she did was wrong then You really are a judgmental jerk.  What makes you think that you have more experience than Tali? What makes you think that she is wrong and you are right?  If she decides that Legions justifications are substantial enough, then you either agree with her or telegraph your racism.  Only a racist ignores someone who has more reason to hate a species than you in favor of continuing to think that everything a person does is a lie and that there is no good whatsoever in them.

I'm sensing a lot of hate here, and I'm not usually wrong.  Too many illogical assumptions compounded by too many blind decisions, namely who lives and who dies.

[CmdrFenix83]

Internet Kraken wrote...

You don't see the problem with this logic? You don't trust Legion because he is a Geth. But not all Geth are the same. The true Geth have not been trying to kill you, so distrusting Legion based on the actions of heretics makes no sense. Unless you don't believe Legion when he says that not all Geth are the same, but you only wouldn't believe him if you dislike him.

Also you should hate Tali if your reason for disliking Legion is because of his fans. Both fans are biased towards their preferred character, and this will affect their opinion in the Geth vs. Quarian debate. I myself will admit to also being subject to this, but it is not the sole reason behind my position in that debate. I never thought the Quarian's actions towards the Geth were appropriate, even before Mass Effect 2.

But the only proof that all Geth aren't the same is Legion's word.  I distrust Geth because of their 300 year history.  There is no proof that the way Legion tells you the story is fact.  Which is exactly my point.  I didn't trust Legion from the beginning.  I listened to his stories, was surprised by the things he said.  Then he was caught red-handed, which threw everything he's said up to that point into question. 

Remember, my 'Main' Shepard, was played prior to coming to these forums(post-release), and I *didn't* believe Legion then.  My time with him literally consisted of the meeting on the derelict, the one dialogue with his activation and getting his mission, then doing his mission.  That was it.  No where near enough time to earn my trust.  If Legion had been introduced from the beginning, my opinion of him, and the way the interactions would have played out would have been much different.

As to the last paragraph, Tali fans weren't throwing it in my face in the Quarian vs Geth debate.  The first thread that came up afterward, I defended both sides' actions in the Morning War.  I understood what the Quarians did, they were just trying to stop something that was already too late.  They didn't realize it was, however, so they tried.  I also understood the Geth point of view.  They're able to think for themselves for the first time, and now their creators are trying to shut them down.  They scream "NO DISASSEMBLE!" and fight back.  

In fact, the *only* thing I see either side doing 'wrong', was the Geth butchering billions of Quarians.  Men, women, and children would have to be included considering how many of them were lost.  We don't have details on the War, though.  We don't know if the Geth turned a war of survival into an extermination, or if the Quarians really just kept attacking the Geth until they were forced to be driven from the planet.  Considering that the overwhelming majority of the dead would have to be non-combatants, I'm inclined to believe that the Geth just moved to exterminate.

The thread, however, ended up with nearly all Legion fanboys screaming over and over how the Geth were flat out wronged, and I ended up on the Quarian end of the debate trying to make them understand that the Quarians were trying to stop them from becoming sentient everywhere.  At best, they would have 'killed' a handful, since they only knew of a few incidents where the Geth were asking these questions.  Even though most, if not all, the Geth *were* developed to the point of sentience, the Quarians didn't know that.