587 réponses à ce sujet

[GuardianAngel470]

DPSSOC wrote...

Solomen wrote...

Maybe I shouldn't play ME1... If it does 'this' to people.

It can do this to people.  People who play ME2 before ME1 have the gift of foresight ME1 firsters didn't have.  Now when I played ME1 I was a bit more charitable towards the Geth, and Cerberus, than most people seemed to be.  Mainly because I didn't start paying attention to what the Geth really were, may as well have been zombies or mutants, until I talked to Tali about the Geth, and that just put me in the entirely wrong mind set for Geth hate.  Look at it like this essentially the first thing I'm told about the Geth is that they were essentially designed as slave labour (they were machines so it was ok) and when they started to show signs of sentience the Quarians tried to wipe them out.  I literally screamed at my TV "YOU DID WHAT?!  AND YOU BLAME THEM?!"  So I entered the whole thing with a different attitude than most, seeing the Quarians as pricks who got what was coming to them rather than victims.

My main reason for believing the Geth are mostly peaceful, or at least indifferent, is that in 300 years they have not taken any action against organic races outside the Veil.  They've been content to live and let live only attacking those who enter their space, understandable considering the only organics they've ever encountered tried to kill them all.  It was only until the arrival of Sovereign that some of them came out and started attacking.  So from my perspective it took an entity taking the place of God to provoke them to violence, to me that speaks to a mostly peaceful nature.

That was why I didn't hate them in ME1, it's why I don't hate them in ME2, it's why I gave Legion the same trust, respect, and lenience I gave to all the other murderers, thieves, terrorists, and psychopaths I picked up. 

Actually, I had the same reaction to what the quarians did and I played ME1 first.  It seemed so simple to me that the quarians were in the wrong initially.  I guess others weren't as objective as I was.

[Collider]

Fenix has a good point about precedence. So far to most people - aside from Tali, Legion, Shepard, and another squad mate (as well as the Geth), no one knows that the Geth aren't bloodthirsty every time you encounter them. That at least is enough to raise suspicion. That said, I trusted Legion although I sided with Tali in the argument (don't go hacking into other people's stuff, thank you) but then charmed Legion into loyalty.

[CmdrFenix83]

Nightwriter wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Actually, we did go behind the Veil.  We landed on Haestorm, remember? 

... Which was occupied by heretic geth.

They shot on sight.  No individual that has entered the Veil has survived(Aside from Saren) prior to Haestrom... and we only lived because Shepard's a badass.

This isn't simply personal experience here.  Not one encounter with the Geth in the past 300 years has been peaceful.  The Geth have killed all of them.  Please see the definition of insanity in my post above.

We've proven, have we not, that the Veil is inhabited by true geth and heretic geth alike? How do you know that the people who have passed through the Veil before weren't killed by heretic geth who inhabit the fringes of the Veil, long before the true geth even find out?

That's my point.  This notion of 'factions' within the Geth comes from the one I suspected to be a spy from the beginning.  How do you know he wasn't telling you what he thought you'd like to hear?  You don't.  Why continue this debate at all?  You're stance is that you trust Legion, mine is that I don't.  It's not going to change. 

[Nightwriter]

That recording of the geth asking does this unit have a soul just killed me. I had an involuntary "awwww" moment, I'll admit it.



I wonder what it's like when your creator tries to destroy you? A bit like your parent trying to kill you, I imagine. Sad.

[RyrineaNara]

Nightwriter wrote...

That recording of the geth asking does this unit have a soul just killed me. I had an involuntary "awwww" moment, I'll admit it.

I wonder what it's like when your creator tries to destroy you? A bit like your parent trying to kill you, I imagine. Sad.

I'd never discovered this recording where is it?

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...What are you talking about?  He tells you that he did it for his people.  

It doesn't even matter because Tali's reaction is the most important part.  She accepted his rationale and gave him non-classified data.  If you think what she did was wrong then You really are a judgmental jerk.  What makes you think that you have more experience than Tali? What makes you think that she is wrong and you are right?  If she decides that Legions justifications are substantial enough, then you either agree with her or telegraph your racism.  Only a racist ignores someone who has more reason to hate a species than you in favor of continuing to think that everything a person does is a lie and that there is no good whatsoever in them.

I'm sensing a lot of hate here, and I'm not usually wrong.  Too many illogical assumptions compounded by too many blind decisions, namely who lives and who dies.

Which is ignoring what I wrote for a second time.  Tali only stands down, regardless of which method you use(charm/intim/side with Legion) because you are Shepard, and she trusts your judgment.  This has nothing to do with Tali's feelings on the subject.  If she had her way, Legion would have been left on the derelict.  Why you insist on ignoring that part is beyond me. 

Tali would do *anything* Shepard told her.  Tali owes Shepard her life at least three times over, and that's not even counting her loyalty mission, where she owes you her father's reputation as well(seeing as this confrontation won't happen if you turned Rael in).

Garrus is the same way.  They trust Shepard.  They may occasionally question him, but they will always give him the benefit of the doubt.  This is why you can talk him out of killing Dr. Heart and Sidonis.

[Nightwriter]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

We've proven, have we not, that the Veil is inhabited by true geth and heretic geth alike? How do you know that the people who have passed through the Veil before weren't killed by heretic geth who inhabit the fringes of the Veil, long before the true geth even find out?

That's my point.  This notion of 'factions' within the Geth comes from the one I suspected to be a spy from the beginning.  How do you know he wasn't telling you what he thought you'd like to hear?  You don't.  Why continue this debate at all?  You're stance is that you trust Legion, mine is that I don't.  It's not going to change. 

Okay, okay, I'll admit, my first notion of "factions" did not come from Legion at all.

It actually came from the ME2 trailers pre game release. I knew it before I'd started the game. Casey Hudson and some of the writers got on for a few videos to say we'd learn there were actually different factions within the geth. I remember it very clearly.

Is that cheating? I suppose it might be. Still, it's those writers and what they said that sticks with me right now. I can't unhear it.

[CmdrFenix83]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

Actually, I had the same reaction to what the quarians did and I played ME1 first.  It seemed so simple to me that the quarians were in the wrong initially.  I guess others weren't as objective as I was.

Which isn't objective, that's ignoring the Quarian point of view altogether.

[CmdrFenix83]

Collider wrote...

Fenix has a good point about precedence. So far to most people - aside from Tali, Legion, Shepard, and another squad mate (as well as the Geth), no one knows that the Geth aren't bloodthirsty every time you encounter them. That at least is enough to raise suspicion. That said, I trusted Legion although I sided with Tali in the argument (don't go hacking into other people's stuff, thank you) but then charmed Legion into loyalty.

Thank you.  Precedent is the reason for my largely paragon main Shepard, takes many Renegade choices.  Rachni Queen, Genophage, etc.

[DPSSOC]

GuardianAngel470 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Solomen wrote...

Maybe I shouldn't play ME1... If it does 'this' to people.

It can do this to people.  People who play ME2 before ME1 have the gift of foresight ME1 firsters didn't have.  Now when I played ME1 I was a bit more charitable towards the Geth, and Cerberus, than most people seemed to be.  Mainly because I didn't start paying attention to what the Geth really were, may as well have been zombies or mutants, until I talked to Tali about the Geth, and that just put me in the entirely wrong mind set for Geth hate.  Look at it like this essentially the first thing I'm told about the Geth is that they were essentially designed as slave labour (they were machines so it was ok) and when they started to show signs of sentience the Quarians tried to wipe them out.  I literally screamed at my TV "YOU DID WHAT?!  AND YOU BLAME THEM?!"  So I entered the whole thing with a different attitude than most, seeing the Quarians as pricks who got what was coming to them rather than victims.

My main reason for believing the Geth are mostly peaceful, or at least indifferent, is that in 300 years they have not taken any action against organic races outside the Veil.  They've been content to live and let live only attacking those who enter their space, understandable considering the only organics they've ever encountered tried to kill them all.  It was only until the arrival of Sovereign that some of them came out and started attacking.  So from my perspective it took an entity taking the place of God to provoke them to violence, to me that speaks to a mostly peaceful nature.

That was why I didn't hate them in ME1, it's why I don't hate them in ME2, it's why I gave Legion the same trust, respect, and lenience I gave to all the other murderers, thieves, terrorists, and psychopaths I picked up. 

Actually, I had the same reaction to what the quarians did and I played ME1 first.  It seemed so simple to me that the quarians were in the wrong initially.  I guess others weren't as objective as I was.

And my view wasn't even that the Quarians were wrong, it's that they were taking the wrong attitude towards the result.  I can fully understand why the Quarian people did what they did, but you do not pick a fight with somebody and then blame them when it goes badly for you.  You chose to act, you failed, it is your responsibility, stop blaming others.  It just made the Quarian people seem a bit childish to me, which I guess makes sense since Tali is probably in her late teens early twenties (Pilgrimage being a right of passage into adulthood).

[CmdrFenix83]

RyrineaNara wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

That recording of the geth asking does this unit have a soul just killed me. I had an involuntary "awwww" moment, I'll admit it.

I wonder what it's like when your creator tries to destroy you? A bit like your parent trying to kill you, I imagine. Sad.

I'd never discovered this recording where is it?

I don't know if it's possible to hear it and save the crew unless you saved a few missions for after the suicide mission.

[Nightwriter]

RyrineaNara wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

That recording of the geth asking does this unit have a soul just killed me. I had an involuntary "awwww" moment, I'll admit it.

I wonder what it's like when your creator tries to destroy you? A bit like your parent trying to kill you, I imagine. Sad.

I'd never discovered this recording where is it?

Can someone else help us with this? I'm not exactly sure where it is, but it was during one of the conversations with Legion.

I believe we were talking about the storage of information with geth or something. I asked to hear the geth's first known recording.

[RyrineaNara]

Nightwriter wrote...

RyrineaNara wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

That recording of the geth asking does this unit have a soul just killed me. I had an involuntary "awwww" moment, I'll admit it.

I wonder what it's like when your creator tries to destroy you? A bit like your parent trying to kill you, I imagine. Sad.

I'd never discovered this recording where is it?

Can someone else help us with this? I'm not exactly sure where it is, but it was during one of the conversations with Legion.

I believe we were talking about the storage of information with geth or something. I asked to hear the geth's first known recording.

Ok thanks ^^.

[CmdrFenix83]

Nightwriter wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

We've proven, have we not, that the Veil is inhabited by true geth and heretic geth alike? How do you know that the people who have passed through the Veil before weren't killed by heretic geth who inhabit the fringes of the Veil, long before the true geth even find out?

That's my point.  This notion of 'factions' within the Geth comes from the one I suspected to be a spy from the beginning.  How do you know he wasn't telling you what he thought you'd like to hear?  You don't.  Why continue this debate at all?  You're stance is that you trust Legion, mine is that I don't.  It's not going to change. 

Okay, okay, I'll admit, my first notion of "factions" did not come from Legion at all.

It actually came from the ME2 trailers pre game release. I knew it before I'd started the game. Casey Hudson and some of the writers got on for a few videos to say we'd learn there were actually different factions within the geth. I remember it very clearly.

Is that cheating? I suppose it might be. Still, it's those writers and what they said that sticks with me right now. I can't unhear it.

The difference is I don't metagame decisions.  I knew Legion was a squaddie.  I knew Grunt was a squaddie.  Grunt stayed in his tube on the basis that he's a Krogan and therefor likely to be dangerous.  Same deal with Legion... I just won't do anything in favor of Cerberus.  I probably would have left him on the derelict if given the opportunity.  Hell, I would have rather given him to the Migrant Fleet to study.

[Collider]

http://masseffect.wi...Geth_Activities
^ some information of what appears to be appreciation or something for music from the geth. Hardly redeems them, but is interesting.

Modifié par Collider, 03 avril 2010 - 01:52 .

[DPSSOC]

I believe it's Legions 3rd conversation.
Here it is if you're interested

[Solomen]

[CmdrFenix83]

DPSSOC wrote...

And my view wasn't even that the Quarians were wrong, it's that they were taking the wrong attitude towards the result.  I can fully understand why the Quarian people did what they did, but you do not pick a fight with somebody and then blame them when it goes badly for you.  You chose to act, you failed, it is your responsibility, stop blaming others.  It just made the Quarian people seem a bit childish to me, which I guess makes sense since Tali is probably in her late teens early twenties (Pilgrimage being a right of passage into adulthood).

Well yes and no.  Not a single Quarian alive today is at fault for the Morning War, or even for creating the Geth.  To be honest, the blame fits on the shoulders of the Quarian ancestors for accidentally giving their Geth worker-bots sentience, and failing to react to the malfunction fast enough, but it's also the Geth's fault for butchering the Quarian people to near extinction.

I think it's pretty reasonable to be upset to be living on the hell that is the Flotilla. 

[Collider]

Tali was 22 in ME1 and 24 in ME2.

I don't feel that the Quarians were being childish. Basically, they just thought their hardware was malfunctioning. If I recall correctly, artificial intelligence was illegal, and asking about your soul is quite indicative of artificial intelligence.

[RyrineaNara]

DPSSOC wrote...

I believe it's Legions 3rd conversation.
Here it is if you're interested

That was heart breaking it got me as well.

[Nightwriter]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Okay, okay, I'll admit, my first notion of "factions" did not come from Legion at all.

It actually came from the ME2 trailers pre game release. I knew it before I'd started the game. Casey Hudson and some of the writers got on for a few videos to say we'd learn there were actually different factions within the geth. I remember it very clearly.

Is that cheating? I suppose it might be. Still, it's those writers and what they said that sticks with me right now. I can't unhear it.

The difference is I don't metagame decisions.  I knew Legion was a squaddie.  I knew Grunt was a squaddie.  Grunt stayed in his tube on the basis that he's a Krogan and therefor likely to be dangerous.  Same deal with Legion... I just won't do anything in favor of Cerberus.  I probably would have left him on the derelict if given the opportunity.  Hell, I would have rather given him to the Migrant Fleet to study.

Does your metagaming mean you disregard something you know to be the truth? Like the writers telling us there are now different geth factions, and that Legion belongs to one?

Regardless, I did as much as possible to make sure I did nothing in favor of Cerberus in game 2. I spent the whole game in shock I was actually working with them, that the card in my game box said Cerberus Network and I was getting e-mails from Cerberus command like I was one of them, giving me missions like Admiral Hackett.

But keeping Legion had nothing to do with Cerberus. I kept him for myself, not for TIM.

[Solomen]

I found a clip that shows every possible outcome of TvL  

[Xaijin]

Considering he changed opinion based on forum responses, metagaming is the least of possible skewing.

[Nightwriter]

Xaijin wrote...

Considering he changed opinion based on forum responses, metagaming is the least of possible skewing.

He changed his opinion? I miss everything.

[DPSSOC]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

And my view wasn't even that the Quarians were wrong, it's that they were taking the wrong attitude towards the result.  I can fully understand why the Quarian people did what they did, but you do not pick a fight with somebody and then blame them when it goes badly for you.  You chose to act, you failed, it is your responsibility, stop blaming others.  It just made the Quarian people seem a bit childish to me, which I guess makes sense since Tali is probably in her late teens early twenties (Pilgrimage being a right of passage into adulthood).

Well yes and no.  Not a single Quarian alive today is at fault for the Morning War, or even for creating the Geth.  To be honest, the blame fits on the shoulders of the Quarian ancestors for accidentally giving their Geth worker-bots sentience, and failing to react to the malfunction fast enough, but it's also the Geth's fault for butchering the Quarian people to near extinction.

I think it's pretty reasonable to be upset to be living on the hell that is the Flotilla. 

Certainly blame is a complex thing I would never seek to state or even imply (though admittedly I may have) that any one particular group or individual is at fault (hate it when my mind gets ahead of my fingers).  However one must acknowledge that the Geth actions durring the Morning War, while potentially excessive, unnecessary, and wrong were a reaction to the Quarians' attempt to wipe them out.  So there's mixed blame, maybe the Geth went to far, maybe the Quarians were wrong to try and kill the Geth, ultimately though the Quarians need to realize and accept that partial blame rests with their ancestors.  As it stands they place blame solely on the Geth; understandable, natural, but ultimately unproductive.

Modifié par DPSSOC, 03 avril 2010 - 02:06 .