587 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

Do you give up yet, Fenix? You are outnumbered! Surrender!!!

[RyrineaNara]

Settled tribes took slaves as well.

Not really,  some ingratiated them in to there tribes. For example, Cyntha Ann Parker was the mother of Quanah Parker a famous Chieftain here in Texas. Cyntha Ann was a white woman who married in too a tribe after she was taken when she was younger.

Modifié par RyrineaNara, 03 avril 2010 - 02:53 .

[Collider]

Nara, I am fairly certain that the Native Americans took slaves that were not always assimilated as regular citizens. There have been cases of slavery everywhere around the globe in history.

[CmdrFenix83]

Nightwriter wrote...

Do you give up yet, Fenix? You are outnumbered! Surrender!!!

Give up what?  I conceeded that Legion was probably telling the truth two days ago, back on like page 12.  There's nothing you, or anyone can ever say that will change the way my main Shepard reacted to Legion.  I still maintain my point from the my first post on the first page.  People believe the Geth are peaceful because they like Legion.  The comment was never open for discussion or debate.  I'm just bored.

[RyrineaNara]

Collider wrote...

Nara, I am fairly certain that the Native Americans took slaves that were not always assimilated as regular citizens. There have been cases of slavery everywhere around the globe in history.

I agree, not all were however some were assimilated as regular citzens. I was just pointing that out. :happy:

Modifié par RyrineaNara, 03 avril 2010 - 02:46 .

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Do you give up yet, Fenix? You are outnumbered! Surrender!!!

Give up what?  I conceeded that Legion was probably telling the truth two days ago, back on like page 12.  There's nothing you, or anyone can ever say that will change the way my main Shepard reacted to Legion.  I still maintain my point from the my first post on the first page.  People believe the Geth are peaceful because they like Legion.  The comment was never open for discussion or debate.  I'm just bored.

If it was never up for debate, then why did you have a lengthy debate with me and several others about it?

[Xaijin]

Collider wrote...

Nara, I am fairly certain that the Native Americans took slaves that were not always assimilated as regular citizens. There have been cases of slavery everywhere around the globe in history.

Pretty much case by case, bothing regimetned or hard and fast.

[CmdrFenix83]

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Do you give up yet, Fenix? You are outnumbered! Surrender!!!

Give up what?  I conceeded that Legion was probably telling the truth two days ago, back on like page 12.  There's nothing you, or anyone can ever say that will change the way my main Shepard reacted to Legion.  I still maintain my point from the my first post on the first page.  People believe the Geth are peaceful because they like Legion.  The comment was never open for discussion or debate.  I'm just bored.

If it was never up for debate, then why did you have a lengthy debate with me and several others about it?

See the bold.   Some of you are fun to debate with.  Yourself being one of them.  Most 'debates' are not debates, but essentially each side screaming their opinions back and forth until it eventually devolves into name calling.

[Collider]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
See the bold.   Some of you are fun to debate with.  Yourself being one of them.  Most 'debates' are not debates, but essentially each side screaming their opinions back and forth until it eventually devolves into name calling.

Most yes...thankfully we hadn't had that in my debate group nor do I think it will happen. If you disassociate the opponent's argument from the opponent as a person, amiable discussions may become that much more possible.

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Do you give up yet, Fenix? You are outnumbered! Surrender!!!

Give up what?  I conceeded that Legion was probably telling the truth two days ago, back on like page 12.  There's nothing you, or anyone can ever say that will change the way my main Shepard reacted to Legion.  I still maintain my point from the my first post on the first page.  People believe the Geth are peaceful because they like Legion.  The comment was never open for discussion or debate.  I'm just bored.

If it was never up for debate, then why did you have a lengthy debate with me and several others about it?

See the bold.   Some of you are fun to debate with.  Yourself being one of them.  Most 'debates' are not debates, but essentially each side screaming their opinions back and forth until it eventually devolves into name calling.

I just don't see the point in debating with someone if you're going to dismiss whatever they say as wrong.

[CmdrFenix83]

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Do you give up yet, Fenix? You are outnumbered! Surrender!!!

Give up what?  I conceeded that Legion was probably telling the truth two days ago, back on like page 12.  There's nothing you, or anyone can ever say that will change the way my main Shepard reacted to Legion.  I still maintain my point from the my first post on the first page.  People believe the Geth are peaceful because they like Legion.  The comment was never open for discussion or debate.  I'm just bored.

If it was never up for debate, then why did you have a lengthy debate with me and several others about it?

See the bold.   Some of you are fun to debate with.  Yourself being one of them.  Most 'debates' are not debates, but essentially each side screaming their opinions back and forth until it eventually devolves into name calling.

I just don't see the point in debating with someone if you're going to dismiss whatever they say as wrong.

Welcome to debating?  This happens when discussing anything from religion, politics, and abortion all the way down to trivial stuff like video game strylines.  The point of debates is almsot never to sway the person you're debating with, but rather the other people that are watching.  Even debate teams aren't trying to win the opinion of the other side, it's just to be more convincing than them to a neutral third party, or the judge.

[Nightwriter]

Internet Kraken wrote...

I just don't see the point in debating with someone if you're going to dismiss whatever they say as wrong.

People do it all the time. Everything they say just comes out sounding like this:

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...



Do you give up yet, Fenix? You are outnumbered! Surrender!!!

Give up what? I conceeded that Legion was probably telling the truth two days ago, back on like page 12. There's nothing you, or anyone can ever say that will change the way my main Shepard reacted to Legion. I still maintain my point from the my first post on the first page. People believe the Geth are peaceful because they like Legion. The comment was never open for discussion or debate. I'm just bored.

If it was never up for debate, then why did you have a lengthy debate with me and several others about it?

See the bold. Some of you are fun to debate with. Yourself being one of them. Most 'debates' are not debates, but essentially each side screaming their opinions back and forth until it eventually devolves into name calling.

I just don't see the point in debating with someone if you're going to dismiss whatever they say as wrong.

Welcome to debating? This happens when discussing anything from religion, politics, and abortion all the way down to trivial stuff like video game strylines. The point of debates is almsot never to sway the person you're debating with, but rather the other people that are watching. Even debate teams aren't trying to win the opinion of the other side, it's just to be more convincing than them to a neutral third party, or the judge.

I understand that. It's just that I would never go into a debate on an internet forum with a closed my mind. I prefer to actually consider what the other people are saying and perhaps even changing my opinion based on it, rather than pretending they are always wrong and vainly attempting to defend my position.

[Nightwriter]

Internet Kraken wrote...

I understand that. It's just that I would never go into a debate on an internet forum with a closed my mind. I prefer to actually consider what the other people are saying and perhaps even changing my opinion based on it, rather than pretending they are always wrong and vainly attempting to defend my position.

Then I do wish there were more people like you, Kraken. As it stands now, viewpoints like this one are a rarity.

[wulf3n]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
Legion is the single anomoly in this equation.  How do you know this isn't just an attempt to change strategy?  You don't.  You just blindly accept it.

lol, you criticise ppl for foolishly believing Legion solely on thier personal opinion of him, yet you would plunge the all the species of the galaxy into a war that none of them can afford based upon your opinion of him.

Im curios! what event has created your complete and utter hatred for synthetic "life"?

[Inverness Moon]

Keeping up with this stuff is tiring, but heres some stuff I collected from the previous pages.

Fenix I think your Shepard is a racist jerk. Hopefully he doesn't mirror your own mindset.

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

And you're repeating the same things, and not listening to where I dismiss it.  The only proof that I've only encounted one 'Geth', as you put it, is in the words of a spy.  I have zero reason to believe anything he's stated.

I distrust all Vorcha, Batarians, and Krogan as well.  I would be very suspicious and watching them just as carefully as I did Legion.  Grunt got to sit in his little tank all game, as well. 

I find it hilarious when you call it 'hate'.  I don't 'hate' any race in the game.  I distrust those that have proven themselves to be hostile.  This includes Geth, Rachni, Batarians, Krogan, and Vorcha.  The other races, in general, have not been hostile to me, nor have histories of violent, aggressive behavior.  As such, I melted the Rachni Queen, blew up the Geth station, supported the Genophage and destroyed the cure, etc.

None of those races have proven themselves to be a benefit to the galaxy, and in fact have all proven to be violent and agressive.  Yes, that includes the Geth, who mercilessly butchered billions of men, women, and children in the Morning War as well as slaughter anyone that crosses inside the Veil.  Anyone.  Not just Quarians.

Trust is earned, not given.  Miranda and Legion were kept on a short leash precisely because I couldn't trust them as I could most of the rest of the crew.  I don't get the option of getting rid of Miranda prior as the little Cerberus spy she is, nor can I get rid of Legion.  Just the flaw of computer RPG's, you aren't allowed to play your own character, you get the 'illusion' of choice.  It's why half my characters end up set with the pure Paragon path as I treat the game like an elaborate shooter, because no matter what 'choices' you make, they aren't necessarily yours, and don't really matter in the end.

You say trust is earned, not given, yet you kept Grunt in his tank, and didn't give him the opportunity to earn your trust.

You're also ignorant if you think that the path to trust is easy and not filled with obstacles. However, I'm sure you know that, yet your biases lead to your willingness to execute Legion on the spot without so much as asking him why he didn't come to you with his concerns. Of course BioWare didn't give any attention to this, most likely because they thought Legion's intent was more important than the method he used to acquire the omni-tool data.

I believe you're just looking for a reason not to trust those species you've had bad experiences with, because it is easier for you for things to be black and white and not concern yourself with minor issues such as the fact that not all members of a species are the same. It makes for less guilt when you're slaughtering them, yes?

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

I don't buy anything I'm told that doesn't seem reasonable.  Again, I gave Legion a bit of rope, but I was still suspicious of him because he was a Geth.  He was caught spying on a crewmember.  Trust destroyed.  The Geth is just a Geth Infiltrator(exactly what his class is and what he was designed for, infiltration).  Shot as such.

Don't pretend that you ever trusted Legion if it only took such a minor incident for you to call for his execution. That is not trust.

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Fenix, how many geth could you kill in Legion's loyalty quest? He led you right to them, he gave you the option to wipe the whole lot of them out.

Why would he do that if he were a lying heretic spy?

You kill a few dozen platforms.  What evidence do you have that those were even Geth, and not VI's?  What evidence do you have that there was anything on those harddrives?  What evidence do you have that there was even anything in that station beyond the 2-3 floors we get to see, and are directed to by Legion?

This is all irrelevant anyway.  I was suspicous of Legion from the beginning, he's caught red-handed confirming those suspicions.

Why don't you just go ahead and ask if the events of Mass Effect are all just a dream of Shepard's? That would make more sense than the questions you're asking here. You're grasping at straws.

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

That is *not* what happens.  That's his *reaction* to the data.  No where does he say that he was spying on her for that data.  No where.  That is an assumption on your part. 

Tali only accepts your decision because you're Shepard.  In fact she finally shows disapproval of having Legion on board at all.  If I had had an option to get rid of Legion other than giving it to Cerberus, I would have taken it before even activating him. 

So you think Tali was lieing when she said that she understood Legion's intention? It seems Tali understands more than you since you can't look past Legion's actions to understand his intentions. But now you're just making up nonsense to try to make Tali's response for the peaceful resolution support your bias.

Also, you've accused Legion of spying so many times, but you seem to overlook how the geth share everything with eachother, they're not so familiar with the concept of spying. But I'm sure you think that is a lie too.

Modifié par Inverness Moon, 03 avril 2010 - 11:28 .

[callofdoobie]

Legion NEVER gives a reason for u too not trust him.

The Quariens turned on the geth and tried killing them that's why he was spying on tali(besides you can order him not to send the data and he'll listen)

Modifié par callofdoobie, 04 avril 2010 - 05:49 .

[Nightwriter]

Legion does deserve the benefit of the doubt. What if he wasn't spying on Tali? What if he was just curious, and wanted to learn?

The geth have proven they are very curious about their creators. They want to understand them. Tali is probably the first quarian Legion has ever met.

[Collider]

He tried to hack into her personal property, which is wrong. It's kind of like accusing a child of spying though. As for meeting the first Quarian, considering how Legion is not really one person, we don't whether that is true. They surely know plenty about the Quarians given the fact that they have a collective consciousness and the ability to search data banks.

[Xaijin]

As he stated, he's not big on the individual, which may explain the fascination with Shepard.

Modifié par Xaijin, 04 avril 2010 - 06:37 .

[Nightwriter]

Always thought it would've been cool if Legion turned out to be that geth that Tali ambushed in the very beginning to get the evidence on Saren, and he'd somehow survived but was changed by what she did to him...



@ Collider - yeah, but how many quarians do you think the true geth meet? That aren't firing at them or something?

[The_Real_Lee]

The Quarians did what we would have done if our mechanical workers began asking if they had a soul. if the automated machines that make cars, or our computers started asking if they had souls, we would shut them down and trouble shoot, and most likely replace some software or replace them.

Difference is that the geth fought back, and then a war broke out with the quarians trying to just eliminate:mellow: the geth, and the geth killing every quarian they saw. when the quarians left, the geth didn't follow, this can be interpreted in a few ways, I thought is was either that the geth were peaceful, or that they understood that pursuing the Quarians would result in a galactic war effort against them. They could still want to attack, but at the time it was uncertain.

If you don't know if the foe is peaceful or violent, be prepared for violent. while the geth weren't violent for 300 years, you must remember that they were aware that they knew they were viewed as dangerous enemies, and any visible military action could spark a galactic war. If you want to defeat anyone in a war, you should have more information, and the element of surprise. The geth are not affected by the flow of time, the Quarians are, and their population was decimated and can't afford to grow or shrink. It's a miracle that the Quarians lasted 200 years with 17 million.

Isolation can be interpreted as a hostile action, since all of the geth actions are hidden by the veil, and any probes were destroyed, most military personnel would initially say that they were most likely hiding a military build up. How large of a fleet would be needed to take on the galaxy?

What the quarians did was wrong, but in the given situation any other sapient species would have done the same. most don't understand that it was wrong in hindsight. with current knowledge it is proven that it was wrong.

What the geth did was also wrong, during the war they killed any quarian on sight. You can't say that that was wrong in hindsight. Any action involving the killing of civilians is wrong.

Modifié par The_Real_Lee, 04 avril 2010 - 07:16 .

[Exyle19]

@ The_Real_Lee



I disagree with a couple of your points.



I personally like to believe that if sci-fi has given anything to our culture as a whole, it is the knowledge that when/if (leaning towards when) we create true AI, to be very vareful in our treatment of them. In that respect, I would not say 'any species' would embark upon the same action.



In fact, I believe the treatment of this principle would largely stem from the given culture's religious and spiritual beliefs regarding souls and sentience. Although all kinds of arguments can be made as to whether a piece of software is truly sentient or simply a turing machine which might blur the issue, when the day comes that I truly cannot tell the difference, I am willing to concede the possibility that the software might be sapient and behave accordingly.