587 réponses à ce sujet

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

And everyone totally trusts the new Geth on board and tells him all about this, right? Not a single individual condones your decision to keep Legion, and for good reasons. The only ones that don't advocate an airlock or leaving him on the derelict Reaper only suggest taking him to give Cerberus a toy to study. *No one* advocates turning him back on. That's just stupid to assume people would give him information about the events on the Alarei. Any information he would have learned about the event would have had to be stolen. Period.

So, you think they just lock Legion in the AI core every time their is a debriefing? Or did they only do it this one time? The former seems unlikely because depriving Legion of all this information would make him a lot less useful. The latter would be incredibly suspicious. Also keep in mind how often you hear your crew talk about the results of a mission. Everyone is told what happens. Even if Legion wasn't told about the mission, I really doubt that he wouldn't overhear a single conversation about it.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 01 avril 2010 - 02:31 .

[Ea James Madden]

I'm not assuming they are aggresive read the post. I said could they be peaceful? Yes. But you have no proof,just jaw ranting. + Legion spying on Tali (scanning her omni-tool) is = espionage or any illegal activity. Just saying it was an illegal way to gain the information. He didn't ask or talk it over he stole it just took it. Yea way to show your peaceful side Legion. You see only what you want. Once he had the info yes I agree he should warn his race. But Legion did not act in a peaceful or legal manner here. (My Shep is an Alliance Hero and abides to the law.) Catching Legion in the act red-handed should be just as unacceptable as the Quarians running test on the Geth.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Have to kill Zaeed (cameras)too, along with everyone but Garrus and... Tali and Mordin. Yep that's a full crew.

Garrus, Tali, Mordin, Samara(She fits within my crew perfectly, actually), Joker(you know you can trust him after the events of ME1), and Chakwas(same as Joker).  Yes.  Then go get reinstated in the Alliance after you Spectre status is back.  Get a crew assigned to you from Hackett, Anderson, or even the Council, seeing as you just handed over dozens of terrorists to C-Sec.

Zaeed, Thane, Grunt, and Jack would never have been recruited in the first place.  Now there's no reason for Ashley not to be reassigned to us either, and she's proven herself loyal to Shepard as well. 

Have fun storming the Collector's base and getting butt raped by the council's red tape.

[CmdrFenix83]

Vaenier wrote...

Legion has done no aggressive actions towards me or my crew. Infect, he saved us on the Derelict Reaper by sniping husks and gaining you access to the core room. Your main argument against him is that "he is different than us."
Hell, he is even willing to endanger genocide of his own people by not giving them the warning, just because you say so. That is as loyal a crew member as you will ever get.

And again... Why does he have that information?  Spying on another crewmember is an aggressive action.  That's like walking over and hacking into their computer.  You don't do it.  Especially when you're already under suspicion for being a sentient kill-bot already anyway. 

Actually, when you tell him to stop transmitting, you don't know that he's just doing it because you said.  He knows that if he disobey's, then he's going to be shot within seconds.  Since Geth have shown a desire to survive, it's completely logical that he would stop to preserve his own existence. 

My main argument is that he's a Geth, and every single Geth before him has attempted to kill you.  This one appears different, and so you tentatively trust him.  Later he's caught spying on the other crew members.  This is a giant red flag.  If I had a batarian crewmember and it was caught doing the same thing, I would have the same reaction.  What justification do you have for trusting Legion implicitly?

[Azint]

Why did they put Legion in the AI core, anyways?

[Xaijin]

SHHH THE FIRST RULE OF PLOT CLUB IS WE DON'T TALK ABOUT PLOT CLUB.

[Vaenier]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

[DPSSOC]

Ea James Madden wrote...

Just to clear things up.Legion states he is the only true Geth ventureing beyond the veil. He also states that True Geth do not function properly beyond the veil. Your Legion states this himself.

And yet ME1 shows us that while they may not function properly they function well enough to use guns and kill things.  Haven't actually had that conversation, or skipped through it by accident, when/where is this.

Ea James Madden wrote...

Also anyone stating that the Quarians are wrong so that makes the Geth right and peaceful is also not making much of an arguement.I acknowledge two wrongs don't make a right.You will not. I completely agree the Quarians are wrong for trying to kill them off.But the Geth are just as wrong for the way they handle the response.(Killing Billons of Quarians.) If they were truly as sentient and peaceful as you say,why didn't and haven't they persued peace in over 300 years?

Quarians attempt to kill Geth, Geth kill Quarians in defense - Justified.  It's commonly, almost universally, accepted that if someone tries to kill you you are well within your rights to kill them back.

As for not attempting peace in 300 years why would they?  The Quarians tried to kill them simply for existing, exactly what about that would give an impression that peace is possible.  The Quarians could have extended the olive branch as well, they didn't, and one could argue that since they were the aggressor it is up to the Quarians to pursue peace, not the Geth.

Ea James Madden wrote...

If you answer any of this answer What reasons do the Geth have to reach a peaceful solution with the Quarians?

Ok allow me an analogy if I may.  I break into your home and try to kill you and your family, you beat me to high hell and I go to prison.  Now what, if anything, would possess you to come to visit me in prison and tell me you forgive me and would like to be my friend.  If you did that I guarantee they'd lock you in the nuthouse.

On the other hand it would not be seen as odd for me, upon getting out of prison, to find you and ask you to forgive me and let me make it up to you.

The impetus is not on the injured party to seek peace, and it is the Quarians' unprovoked first strike that makes the Geth the injured party.

Did the Geth respond poorly?  Perhaps, but when faced with an enemy who is trying to kill you for no other reason than you exist I think we'd all have the same first response.

[Gavinthelocust]

Ea James Madden wrote...

I'm not assuming they are aggresive read the post. I said could they be peaceful? Yes. But you have no proof,just jaw ranting. + Legion spying on Tali (scanning her omni-tool) is = espionage or any illegal activity. Just saying it was an illegal way to gain the information. He didn't ask or talk it over he stole it just took it. Yea way to show your peaceful side Legion. You see only what you want. Once he had the info yes I agree he should warn his race. But Legion did not act in a peaceful or legal manner here. (My Shep is an Alliance Hero and abides to the law.) Catching Legion in the act red-handed should be just as unacceptable as the Quarians running test on the Geth.

I wouldn't say it is on the same level as testing weapons on sentient life. Even if you were a strictly law abiding you'd have to make do with what you got, the council and the alliance isn't going to help so you need everyone you can get. I do have to say you presented your case a whole lot better now, and a million times better than Fenix's "you spy you die" ideal that is mostly driven by legion hate.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Legion has done no aggressive actions towards me or my crew. Infect, he saved us on the Derelict Reaper by sniping husks and gaining you access to the core room. Your main argument against him is that "he is different than us."
Hell, he is even willing to endanger genocide of his own people by not giving them the warning, just because you say so. That is as loyal a crew member as you will ever get.

And again... Why does he have that information?  Spying on another crewmember is an aggressive action.  That's like walking over and hacking into their computer.  You don't do it.  Especially when you're already under suspicion for being a sentient kill-bot already anyway. 

Actually, when you tell him to stop transmitting, you don't know that he's just doing it because you said.  He knows that if he disobey's, then he's going to be shot within seconds.  Since Geth have shown a desire to survive, it's completely logical that he would stop to preserve his own existence. 

My main argument is that he's a Geth, and every single Geth before him has attempted to kill you.  This one appears different, and so you tentatively trust him.  Later he's caught spying on the other crew members.  This is a giant red flag.  If I had a batarian crewmember and it was caught doing the same thing, I would have the same reaction.  What justification do you have for trusting Legion implicitly?

Actually, it wouldn't be hacking, it would more akin to openning a computer that is already logged in. Omni tools are just advance computers that store data, most of it is there at the ready, do you seriously want to say "Hold enemies, I gotta wait for my Omni tool to boot up so i can log in."


yeah.... no.

Did not want to go into this but -
Secondly, your also assuming that legion has any congitiion of right/wrong, which he doesn't, he's the equivilant of an 10 year old mentality in ME2 which you can clearly tell just by talking to him and interacting with him. He is still learning, your applying social standards of an adult to an child who in most cases wouldn't know that it's bad to do this or stick their hand in the electrical socket.

"What's this?"

"why do humans do this?"

"Why do that?"

"That's interesting."

"I don't wanna go into the metal detectors!"

[Rip504]

I agree with this and would like to see someone answer this.



Good Question CmdrFenix83-What justification do you have for trusting Legion implicitly?

[applehug]

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

[Internet Kraken]

DPSSOC wrote...

Ea James Madden wrote...



Just to clear things up.Legion states he is the only true Geth ventureing beyond the veil. He also states that True Geth do not function properly beyond the veil. Your Legion states this himself.

And yet ME1 shows us that while they may not function properly they function well enough to use guns and kill things. Haven't actually had that conversation, or skipped through it by accident, when/where is this.

Apparently the heretics are different. Maybe an upgrade from Sovereign. I don't actually recall this conversation either, but the wiki does say the same thing so I assume he is telling the truth.

[CmdrFenix83]

Nightwriter wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Miranda would have been left in C-Sec custody with the rest of the Cerberus personel.  EDI would have been destroyed, I never would have recruited Thane(why did I need an assassin?).  Mordin is necessary to survive encounters with the Collectors.  Joker is a damned fine pilot, and I actually trust him, since he hasn't been trying to kill me for 1.5 games.  You'll have to explain Garrus, because I don't see your point.

Sounds like you just want to shoot everyone who's even the least bit suspicious. Being a trigger happy maniac this way means having no crew and never getting to know people or form friendships.

Your whole freaking game is about getting a bunch of distrustful misfits and badasses from all walks of life to get along, work together and learn to change and accomplish this mission. You can't toss them out an airlock first sign of a problem, you have to MAKE it work. That's your job.

None of them are going to be able to trust each other, and all of them are going to have problems and be jumpy. Sooner or later they're going to do something wrong. Be a commander. Work with them.

Who said shoot?  The Cerberus employees are members of a terrorist organization.  I would have turned them all in to C-Sec.  Probably had Miranda 'interrogated' by Bailey until she gave up TIM or died to the cynide capsule in her tooth.  I never said anything about shooting everyone.

I can recruit people that I don't trust just fine.  Does that mean I should just blindly give them my back and show them where to put the knife?  Hell no.  Trust is earned, buddy boy, not given.  When you trust blindly, you get screwed.  As with the Paragon ending to Zaeed's loyalty mission, "I need people I can trust, and I can't trust you."  I would have left his ass to die there too, but not an option.

Again, this is a member of a race that has 100% of the time attempted to kill you, prior to meeting him.  This one appears different, then is proven to be spying on other crew members just hours after being activated(assuming flight time from derelict to the Heretic station).  It amazes me that *anyone* can be so blindly trusting of him under the circumstances.  What did you think Legion was doing with Tali's omni-tool?  Looking for her birthday so he can bake her a cake?  No.  He was spying on her and gathering intel behind her back, plain and simple. 

[Internet Kraken]

Rip504 wrote...

What justification do you have for trusting Legion implicitly?

Right from the start? None. But after loyaly following you through several dangerous missions and trusting you with the fate of the heretics, I'd say it proves that he is trustworthy. At least when you consider that the only reason to believe that he isn't trustworthy is because he's a Geth.

[Vaenier]

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

You know this is the EXACT same argument for thinking all arabs are terrorists, or that all Germans are ****s.

HE did not do anything negative to you, except for one defensive action of his entire race, and you want to shoot him. You just want an excuse.

[CmdrFenix83]

DPSSOC wrote...

On Legion spying. If legion is aboard when you do the mission he would hear EDI (being right next to her hardware and if I'm not mistaken regularly interfaced with her) mention likely Geth resistance Shepard will face. Now as soon as Legion gets hold of even a hint of Geth on Flotilla his spying is justify as it is a Geth concern. If Geth attacked it's either the heretics or Legion's geth and one way or another it is the Geth's concern. If Geth did not attack then the issue of how and why they're there is also a Geth concern.

If Legions not picked up at that point then there is the universal law of people talk. Joker most likely had some idea of what was going on, needing to be ready to save Shepard's behind, and Joker loves to talk, or at least vocalize his thoughts. So all it would take is one crewmember hearing Joker or EDI say Geth once and the rumours will start flying, and rumours are like ****aroaches they will never die. So either being present or arriving later it defies probability that Legion didn't have at least a vague idea of what was going on. That's not even accounting for the possibility of mission logs which are freely accessible, or EDI saying, "Hey Legion the Quarians were studying your people"

Already addressed this.  No one on the ship advocates bringing him on and waking him.  No one trusts him so blindly as Shepard.  No one is going to walk up to the kill-bot and tell him about these things. 

*If* you brought Legion with you to the Floatilla, then you're correct, he has reason to be suspicious.  If you don't he has no way to know. 

[Nightwriter]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...
Right then. I think it's pretty clear that the real problem here is that you have formed unhealthy attachments to a video game.

Just gonna ignore your posts from here on out, I recommend that everyone else do the same.

In other words, you have no way to dispute my post and are attempting to save face.  Thanks for playing, Legion fanboy.

Of course, because in every forum debate we have to get to that place where we start taking it in turns telling each other that every response means we're admitting we have no argument...

... and after that we take it in turns telling each other that our opponent's logic is faulty... over and over... again and again... "you have no argument"... "why are you still talking? your logic is faulty because you are stupid...."



And it just goes on and on like this for a very long time...

Modifié par Nightwriter, 01 avril 2010 - 02:42 .

[DPSSOC]

Azint wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Have to kill Zaeed (cameras)too, along with everyone but Garrus and... Tali and Mordin. Yep that's a full crew.

You can't even trust them.  A lots happened in two years Garrus and Tali have new loyalties, new priorities, and Mordin is former STG again has his own loyalties and priorities.  The only person Shepard can trust is...Shepard.  Good luck flying the ship by yourself after you've crippled it by ripping out the integrated AI.

They both swore off whatever they were doing to rejoin the squad. Garrus really has nothing else to do, Tali changed her name for that, I'm pretty sure they can be trusted, in terms of loyatly at least.

That's just what they want you to think.  In all honesty my point was merely to illustrate that the only person you can ever really trust is yourself and with everyone else you're taking a leap of faith not to actually imply that Garrus, Tali, and Mordin can't be trusted.

Internet Kraken wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

Ea James Madden wrote...

Just to clear things up.Legion states he is the only true Geth ventureing beyond the veil. He also states that True Geth do not function properly beyond the veil. Your Legion states this himself.

And yet ME1 shows us that while they may not function properly they function well enough to use guns and kill things. Haven't actually had that conversation, or skipped through it by accident, when/where is this.

Apparently the heretics are different. Maybe an upgrade from Sovereign. I don't actually recall this conversation either, but the wiki does say the same thing so I assume he is telling the truth.

Hmm well I'm about to pick up Legion in my current playthrough so we'll see.  Still if history has taught us anything it's that if you really want something done, you'll find a way.  If the Geth really wanted to wipe out the Quarians they'd have figured something out by now wouldn't you think.

[applehug]

Vaenier wrote...

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

You know this is the EXACT same argument for thinking all arabs are terrorists, or that all Germans are ****s.

HE did not do anything negative to you, except for one defensive action of his entire race, and you want to shoot him. You just want an excuse.

No it's not. All Geth have shown that they are willing to kill women and children for no reason in the Morning war, why should I believe they have changed?

Also Legion isn't innocent like some of you try to make him. He is guilty of spying. Spying = espionoge = treason = punisable by death.

Modifié par applehug, 01 avril 2010 - 02:44 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Spartas Husky wrote...

WHy assume they are agressive?

Precedent.  Every Geth you've encountered tried to kill you.  Every organic entering the veil was killed(prior to Shepard going to Haestrom and saving Tali/Reegar).  This one acts different.  Appears friendly.  It could be a trick to infiltrate Shepard's inner circle, it could just be a method to get close enough to their real enemy and be sure he's dead.  The only evidence against these theories is the word of said suspect.

Ex:  James Bond is caught undercover in Soviet Russia.

Russian KGB Agent:  "We caught you behind the munitions building.  What were you doing there, spying?"
Bond:  "Of course not, I needed a quiet place to take a ******."
Russian KGB Agent:  "Oh, ok.  You're free to go."

In this case, KGB Agent = Legion fanboys.

[Gavinthelocust]

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

The Quarians commited the war crime of trying to wipe the whole species out when it just reached sentience. All of them want the Geth dead including the beloved Tali for just trying to exist, that is called racism. Having a likable well written character does not excuse the fact they were going to kill off a whole race and still intend to. The only Geth that attack on sight are the Heretics and after Legion's loyalty mission they are normal Geth again or dead.

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...



Already addressed this. No one on the ship advocates bringing him on and waking him. No one trusts him so blindly as Shepard. No one is going to walk up to the kill-bot and tell him about these things.



*If* you brought Legion with you to the Floatilla, then you're correct, he has reason to be suspicious. If you don't he has no way to know.

Okay, then explain to me this; on Tali's loyalty mission, you can acquire an upgrade for Legion's Geth shields. Is Legion supposed to believe that you got this on Illium? You go to the migrant fleet, spend a few hours there, and then return with Geth shield technology. Even if Legion somehow remained oblivious to everything said by every crewmate, this alone would be enough to hint that maybe the Quarians are experimenting on Geth.

[Ea James Madden]

@ DPSSOC

In ME1 you fight Heritics not true Geth.Two diff factions evoling differntly.Legion proves this when he finds out the Heritics for ME1 are spying on True Geth.



When you kill Billons in "self-preservation" when does it become an excessive force or an excessive slaughter? When does it change from "self-preservation" into Survial of the fittest? Who ever was strong enough to kill the other off is the victor and the right peaceful race.



In America if a man tries to kill you and you "beat" him defenselessly into the ground and then kill him,you go to jail for excessive force. There is such a thing.



The Geth killed billons of Quarians with no remorse and no signs of peace. As you say why would the Quarians think there is a peaceful path to be had,when the Geth have shown them only Death?

[DPSSOC]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Already addressed this.  No one on the ship advocates bringing him on and waking him.  No one trusts him so blindly as Shepard.  No one is going to walk up to the kill-bot and tell him about these things. 

*If* you brought Legion with you to the Floatilla, then you're correct, he has reason to be suspicious.  If you don't he has no way to know. 

I'm not suggesting someone told Legion I'm saying Legion might have heard it mentioned by someone.  Two crewmembers having a conversation and through the miracle that is sound other people can hear it.  And who's to say EDI wouldn't tell him, AI's gotta stick together right?  My point was that there are plenty of non-invasive ways he could have found out, unless Legion is blind and deaf it defies probability that on a ship that small he didn't hear something.