587 réponses à ce sujet

[CmdrFenix83]

DPSSOC wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

Have to kill Zaeed (cameras)too, along with everyone but Garrus and... Tali and Mordin. Yep that's a full crew.

You can't even trust them.  A lots happened in two years Garrus and Tali have new loyalties, new priorities, and Mordin is former STG again has his own loyalties and priorities.  The only person Shepard can trust is...Shepard.  Good luck flying the ship by yourself after you've crippled it by ripping out the integrated AI.

Bull.  Tali proves her loyalty to Shepard on Freedom's Progress by telling him what Fraza did, and Garrus is more than happy to rejoin you.  Neither of them give you any reason to suspect them of anything.  Mordin is necessary to come up with a countermeasure to the Seeker swarms.  Would I trust Mordin implicitly?  No.  However, I need that countermeasure.  Mordin slowly earns the trust bestowed on him.  As do pretty much everyone else except Legion and Miranda.

[applehug]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

The Quarians commited the war crime of trying to wipe the whole species out when it just reached sentience. All of them want the Geth dead including the beloved Tali for just trying to exist, that is called racism. Having a likable well written character does not excuse the fact they were going to kill off a whole race and still intend to. The only Geth that attack on sight are the Heretics and after Legion's loyalty mission they are normal Geth again or dead.

Except the Quarians created the Geth as servants. They never should have been sentient in the first place. They are an abomination, like some demon spawn.

Would you have qualms about killing a demon child?

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

You know this is the EXACT same argument for thinking all arabs are terrorists, or that all Germans are ****s.

HE did not do anything negative to you, except for one defensive action of his entire race, and you want to shoot him. You just want an excuse.

No it's not. All Geth have shown that they are willing to kill women and children for no reason in the Morning war, why should I believe they have changed?

Also Legion isn't innocent like some of you try to make him. He is guilty of spying. Spying = espionoge = treason = punisable by death.

Spying by whose terms? Yours? Quarians? Geth? Turians? Guess what, your baby sitting an bunch of people, most whom like jack and miranda just don't get along. Your answer is to either shoot them, put them on the next habitable planet or throw them out the air lock... Lovely problem solving skills.

Your also assuming that people don't trust legion because just because you turned them on. Most people would assume you wouldn't have an live geth running around because you mis-trusted it.


Here is an quick question -
Does an 6 year old know spying is wrong? Does an 10 year old know spying is wrong? Heck, let's make it simple, does an CHILD know spying is wrong?

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 01 avril 2010 - 02:53 .

[Cascadus]

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

It's wrong when those machines that shoot you on sight aren't even representative of the main race's collective and it's not like, y'know, that entire race didn't try to conduct species-wide genocide over them just because they became self-aware. It's like someone walking up to your kind, and killing thousands just because they can, essentially. Watch the Second Renaissance, from the Animatrix. It draws some pretty close parallels with the quarian/geth conflict especially in the wanton genocide of machines borne from fear and hatred.
It seems you've essentially ignored everything Legion has said to you, from the fact the heretics are around 2% of the geth collective to the recording of among the many early geth which asked if it had a soul.

Don't be so oblivious and openly ignorant to some important facts. There is no 'right' side to this conflict, but the geth are a lot less evil than you make them out to be. And I find it hilarious you're correlating spying with treason. Spying refers to malicious intent, which Legion obviously wasn't doing. He learned of incredibly important intel concerning the Creators (quarians) preparing for war against his own kind. Is he not justified in doing so? You know what, forget I asked, because Legion and the geth are obviously evil because of reasons and stuff.

Modifié par Cascadus, 01 avril 2010 - 02:53 .

[Gavinthelocust]

applehug wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

The Quarians commited the war crime of trying to wipe the whole species out when it just reached sentience. All of them want the Geth dead including the beloved Tali for just trying to exist, that is called racism. Having a likable well written character does not excuse the fact they were going to kill off a whole race and still intend to. The only Geth that attack on sight are the Heretics and after Legion's loyalty mission they are normal Geth again or dead.

Except the Quarians created the Geth as servants. They never should have been sentient in the first place. They are an abomination, like some demon spawn.

Would you have qualms about killing a demon child?

I'm Jewish.
Evolution is not an abomination, they reached sentience the same way humans did from apes.

[Vaenier]

Why does Legion save you on the Reaper?
Why are the husks attacking him?
Why is it possible for him to die from Collectors?
Why does he kill millions of Geth?
Why does he not sabotage anything?
Why does he do nothing hostile against you?
Do you know what paranoia means?
If you knew suspected an alien race were researching the equiviliant of a biological weapon with the sole intent of destroying your entire race, wouldnt you want to make sure?
Plus, my Legion helped clear out the Quarian ship, he had every right to investigate. [not that he would have to at that point, but they only wrote one possible conversation]

[applehug]

Cascadus wrote...

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

It's wrong when those machines that shoot you on sight aren't even representative of the main race's collective and it's not like, y'know, that entire race didn't try to conduct species-wide genocide over them just because they became self-aware. It's like someone walking up to your kind, and killing thousands just because they can, essentially. Watch the Second Renaissance, from the Animatrix. It draws some pretty close parallels with the quarian/geth conflict especially in the wanton genocide of machines borne from fear and hatred.
It seems you've essentially ignored everything Legion has said to you, from the fact the heretics are around 2% of the geth collective to the recording of among the many early geth which asked if it had a soul.

Whatabout the ones on Haestrom? I was just peacefully walking around then all of a sudden a Geth drop ship was shooting geth at me?

Or is that there way of negotiation?

Modifié par applehug, 01 avril 2010 - 02:56 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...
Because in ME1
the Citadel would have been ****ed if you had the entire geth army
after you. The human fleet wouldn't have surivied and there would have
been easily 10x more geth warships and that is not including the 5-10 geth dreadnoughts attacking that the geth most likely have. You really think two dozen geth warships is all the geth have? and yet the attacked the citadel with that force. And the herectics were commanded by sovereign who bought every pawn he had to bear on the citadel.

Let actions dictate how you judge people. I am betting that you think all middle eastern people are terrorists willing to strap bombs to their chests. Legion was perfectly legitmized in spying. Techinally there people are at war. still. Spying is what you do in war. More battles have been won because of spying then sheer bravery or going out ot meet them in battle.

Thirdly, you are condricting the game. Why o Why would legion have you go kill heretic geth in a space station in the middle of no where. You even blew up the remaining heretic geth up, killing the majority of said 15%.

One, you don't know the size of the Geth fleet.  There is zero intel on the Geth because anyone that goes into the Veil is killed on arrival.  If what you say was true, then there wouldn't *be* any Heretic Geth to encounter in ME2, they would have been mostly wiped out.  They weren't seeing as we encounter them many, many times.  You don't know what 'faction' these Geth are.  Especially Haestrom, we're technically behind the Veil in their territory.  How do you know what the Geth are?  Do they wear colorful insignias to distinguish between the two?  No.  You don't. 

You don't know.  Your only justification is the word of the individual that I've called into suspect.  Nothing he says can be used as evidence.  You cannot trust Legion's word implicitly.  Even using his own words, he's admitted to trying out lies to see the response.  I want one single person to give me a legitimate reason to trust Legion.  Nothing he says can be used, as it could all easily be fabricated.  Even the heretic station could have been a mostly empty vessel of VI controlled synthetics used to cement Legion's story to Shepard.

Give me a reason to trust him.  Right now all I have is a proven spy.

To you second paragraph, I trust *no one* implicitly that I don't know well.  As I said earlier, trust is earned, not given freely.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Why do people treat geth as real people. They are just machines, they are not even alive. Right?

Does a being that can react, think, talk, discuss, ask questions, and come up with decisions on it's own. Is that a sentient being?

[Gavinthelocust]

applehug wrote...

Cascadus wrote...

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

It's wrong when those machines that shoot you on sight aren't even representative of the main race's collective and it's not like, y'know, that entire race didn't try to conduct species-wide genocide over them just because they became self-aware. It's like someone walking up to your kind, and killing thousands just because they can, essentially. Watch the Second Renaissance, from the Animatrix. It draws some pretty close parallels with the quarian/geth conflict especially in the wanton genocide of machines borne from fear and hatred.
It seems you've essentially ignored everything Legion has said to you, from the fact the heretics are around 2% of the geth collective to the recording of among the many early geth which asked if it had a soul.

Whatabout the ones on Haestrom? I was just peacefully walking around then all of a sudden a Geth drop ship was shooting geth at me?

Or is that there way of negotiation?

I see you have good skills in selective forgetfulness, for you forget that those are heretics. I just ninja'd your post.

[CmdrFenix83]

Vaenier wrote...

Racism. Its such an ugly thing to see. I am sorry for you.

Geth aren't a race, they're machinery.

Modifié par CmdrFenix83, 01 avril 2010 - 02:59 .

[applehug]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

applehug wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

The Quarians commited the war crime of trying to wipe the whole species out when it just reached sentience. All of them want the Geth dead including the beloved Tali for just trying to exist, that is called racism. Having a likable well written character does not excuse the fact they were going to kill off a whole race and still intend to. The only Geth that attack on sight are the Heretics and after Legion's loyalty mission they are normal Geth again or dead.

Except the Quarians created the Geth as servants. They never should have been sentient in the first place. They are an abomination, like some demon spawn.

Would you have qualms about killing a demon child?

I'm Jewish.
Evolution is not an abomination, they reached sentience the same way humans did from apes.

Quarians did not intend for them to reach sentience. Humans evolving from apes either

a. A god figure intended us to become humans or...

b. No one intended for us to reach sentience, because no one created us.

[Vaenier]

[Brain glitch, ignore this space]

Modifié par Vaenier, 01 avril 2010 - 03:01 .

[Nightwriter]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Why do people treat geth as real people. They are just machines, they are not even alive. Right?

Does a being that can react, think, talk, discuss, ask questions, and come up with decisions on it's own. Is that a sentient being?

Don't forget a being that studies music, still cares for its creators, does not wish to die, wants to retain its individuality...

[CmdrFenix83]

Xaijin wrote...

No dude, Samara says she'll KILL YOU. Under your criteria that doesn't work. Under your criteria you have to shoot her right then and there.

Kill you if you make her do anything extremely dishonorable.  I have no problem with her, as I won't be making her do anything outside of her code.  All I've done is turn in criminals and execute a robot spy.  Beyond that I follow a mostly Paragon path.  I wouldn't have any issue with her.

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
  Even the heretic station could have been a mostly empty vessel of VI controlled synthetics used to cement Legion's story to Shepard.

Really? Are you suggesting that every other Geth operation you can ruin with Legion is just an elaborate facade as well? This is a pretty big stretch.

[DPSSOC]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

You can't even trust them.  A lots happened in two years Garrus and Tali have new loyalties, new priorities, and Mordin is former STG again has his own loyalties and priorities.  The only person Shepard can trust is...Shepard.  Good luck flying the ship by yourself after you've crippled it by ripping out the integrated AI.

Bull.  Tali proves her loyalty to Shepard on Freedom's Progress by telling him what Fraza did, and Garrus is more than happy to rejoin you.  Neither of them give you any reason to suspect them of anything.  Mordin is necessary to come up with a countermeasure to the Seeker swarms.  Would I trust Mordin implicitly?  No.  However, I need that countermeasure.  Mordin slowly earns the trust bestowed on him.  As do pretty much everyone else except Legion and Miranda.

DPSSOC wrote...

Azint wrote...
They both swore off whatever they were doing to rejoin the squad. Garrus really has nothing else to do, Tali changed her name for that, I'm pretty sure they can be trusted, in terms of loyatly at least.

That's just what they want you to think.  In all honesty my point was merely to illustrate that the only person you can ever really trust is yourself and with everyone else you're taking a leap of faith not to actually imply that Garrus, Tali, and Mordin can't be trusted.

Bottom of Page 4 easy to miss.

Ea James Madden wrote...

When you kill Billons in "self-preservation" when does it become an excessive force or an excessive slaughter? When does it change from "self-preservation" into Survial of the fittest? Who ever was strong enough to kill the other off is the victor and the right peaceful race.

It becomes excessive when what you do to them exceeds what they intended to do to you.

Ea James Madden wrote...
In America if a man tries to kill you and you "beat" him defenselessly into the ground and then kill him,you go to jail for excessive force. There is such a thing.

Yes there is, the Geth didn't do that.  They beat the Quarians down and essentially said, get out of my house.

Ea James Madden wrote...
The Geth killed billons of Quarians with no remorse and no signs of peace. As you say why would the Quarians think there is a peaceful path to be had,when the Geth have shown them only Death?

Did the Quarians make any offer of peace?  When neither side makes a bid for peace you can't fault the other for not taking it.  The conflict is over however, and has been for 3 centuries, and the burden falls on the Quarians, as the aggressor, to ask forgiveness, not the Geth to offer it.  Again when someone tries to kill you simply for existing only a complete moron would extend an offer of peace.

[applehug]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

applehug wrote...

Cascadus wrote...

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

It's wrong when those machines that shoot you on sight aren't even representative of the main race's collective and it's not like, y'know, that entire race didn't try to conduct species-wide genocide over them just because they became self-aware. It's like someone walking up to your kind, and killing thousands just because they can, essentially. Watch the Second Renaissance, from the Animatrix. It draws some pretty close parallels with the quarian/geth conflict especially in the wanton genocide of machines borne from fear and hatred.
It seems you've essentially ignored everything Legion has said to you, from the fact the heretics are around 2% of the geth collective to the recording of among the many early geth which asked if it had a soul.

Whatabout the ones on Haestrom? I was just peacefully walking around then all of a sudden a Geth drop ship was shooting geth at me?

Or is that there way of negotiation?

I see you have good skills in selective forgetfulness, for you forget that those are heretics. I just ninja'd your post.

How do you know? If every single geth we encounter are heretics Shepard has an odd way of running into them.

How do we even know Legion is not lying to us? He obviouisly spied on Tali, what makes you believe he is not spying on Shepard?

[Vaenier]

The Reapers are just a Geth hoax! They made the dreadnoughts to just mess with the races of the galaxy, they would then come in, acting like heros, and get everyone to let down their guard. They would then kill everything, just because.



= Paranoia.

[Gavinthelocust]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

No dude, Samara says she'll KILL YOU. Under your criteria that doesn't work. Under your criteria you have to shoot her right then and there.

Kill you if you make her do anything extremely dishonorable.  I have no problem with her, as I won't be making her do anything outside of her code.  All I've done is turn in criminals and execute a robot spy.  Beyond that I follow a mostly Paragon path.  I wouldn't have any issue with her.

A paragon is not a cop who turns in anyone who breaks the littlest rules, a paragon looks past differences and helps people no matter who they are. You seem much more like an renegade in the way you think everyone on the ship should die.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

One, you don't know the size of the Geth fleet.  There is zero intel on the Geth because anyone that goes into the Veil is killed on arrival.  If what you say was true, then there wouldn't *be* any Heretic Geth to encounter in ME2, they would have been mostly wiped out.  They weren't seeing as we encounter them many, many times.  You don't know what 'faction' these Geth are.  Especially Haestrom, we're technically behind the Veil in their territory.  How do you know what the Geth are?  Do they wear colorful insignias to distinguish between the two?  No.  You don't. 

You don't know.  Your only justification is the word of the individual that I've called into suspect.  Nothing he says can be used as evidence.  You cannot trust Legion's word implicitly.  Even using his own words, he's admitted to trying out lies to see the response.  I want one single person to give me a legitimate reason to trust Legion.  Nothing he says can be used, as it could all easily be fabricated.  Even the heretic station could have been a mostly empty vessel of VI controlled synthetics used to cement Legion's story to Shepard.

Give me a reason to trust him.  Right now all I have is a proven spy.

To you second paragraph, I trust *no one* implicitly that I don't know well.  As I said earlier, trust is earned, not given freely.

Alright, let's assume your right and that legion for all intents and purposes is actually acting like an adult. Why did Soverign not throw the full force of an race of sentient machines that could easily macifacture hundreds of ships in prepartion to attack the Citadel. O wait, he had two dozen and we know very well that there is MILLIONS of geth by quarians and the like. Things do not add up for you.


You are also assuming that he had mentality of an adult. Which he clearly does not, and no one has even addressed. Does an child have the congactive ability to know that spying is wrong when no one has taught him such?

[Internet Kraken]

applehug wrote..

How do you know? If every single geth we encounter are heretics Shepard has an odd way of running into them.

That's becuase they are the ones trying to kill you. Why would the peaceful Geth that keep to themslves ever encounter Shepard?

How do we even know Legion is not lying to us? He obviouisly spied on Tali, what makes you believe he is not spying on Shepard?

He only scanned Tali's omni-tool so he could warn his people about the Quarian's plans for war. I hardly consider this to be an evil thing. And what does Legion have to gain by spying on Shepard?

[CmdrFenix83]

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

And everyone totally trusts the new Geth on board and tells him all about this, right? Not a single individual condones your decision to keep Legion, and for good reasons. The only ones that don't advocate an airlock or leaving him on the derelict Reaper only suggest taking him to give Cerberus a toy to study. *No one* advocates turning him back on. That's just stupid to assume people would give him information about the events on the Alarei. Any information he would have learned about the event would have had to be stolen. Period.

So, you think they just lock Legion in the AI core every time their is a debriefing? Or did they only do it this one time? The former seems unlikely because depriving Legion of all this information would make him a lot less useful. The latter would be incredibly suspicious. Also keep in mind how often you hear your crew talk about the results of a mission. Everyone is told what happens. Even if Legion wasn't told about the mission, I really doubt that he wouldn't overhear a single conversation about it.

No one trusts him.  Other than the individuals wanting to hand him to Cerberus to study, no one even wanted you to bring him on the ship.  No one is going to go out of their way to talk to him, nor are they going to talk about such things when he's around. 

I didn't bring him to the Floatilla, nor was he part of the crew when it happened.  There is no way he got this information from anything other than spying.  Do you really hand out a stack of reports from every mission you did prior to pickign up the new guy?  Especially a new guy that's given you a minor reason to trust him despite his position as an advanced kill-bot?  No one's going to go out of their well to tell the robot they don't trust about a 'personal' mission that was done.  Mission reports from Freedom's Progress, Horizon, the Collector Ship, and the derelict Reaper, sure, as those pertain to the mission, but not the personal stuff that you did as a favor to a crewmember. 

He's a Geth spy, plain and simple.  FFS, his class skill is initially called "Geth Infiltrator" even.