587 réponses à ce sujet

[The Elite Elite]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Why do people treat geth as real people. They are just machines, they are not even alive. Right?

Exactly. When your computer starts doing things that it isn't supposed to do, what do you do? Somehow I don't think you just leave it alone and leave whatever virus it has to spread through your system. You shut it down, wipe it clean, and start from scratch. So when the Quarians start hearing some Geth units asking "do we have a soul?" they see that there is something very wrong. So they try to wipe out the Geth to stop whatever problem there is with their units, so they can then find out what they did wrong with them and avoid the same mistakes. Nothing wrong with what the Quarians did.

[Peer of the Empire]

Vaenier wrote...

Legion has done no aggressive actions towards me or my crew. Infect, he saved us on the Derelict Reaper by sniping husks and gaining you access to the core room. Your main argument against him is that "he is different than us."
Hell, he is even willing to endanger genocide of his own people by not giving them the warning, just because you say so. That is as loyal a crew member as you will ever get.

You just assumed every geth is exactly the same like Legion.

Legion is just a crazy stalker.  Geth are still a threat, as evidenced by their actions.

[CmdrFenix83]

Ea James Madden wrote...

I'm not assuming they are aggresive read the post. I said could they be peaceful? Yes. But you have no proof,just jaw ranting. + Legion spying on Tali (scanning her omni-tool) is = espionage or any illegal activity. Just saying it was an illegal way to gain the information. He didn't ask or talk it over he stole it just took it. Yea way to show your peaceful side Legion. You see only what you want. Once he had the info yes I agree he should warn his race. But Legion did not act in a peaceful or legal manner here. (My Shep is an Alliance Hero and abides to the law.) Catching Legion in the act red-handed should be just as unacceptable as the Quarians running test on the Geth.

Thank you.  Yes, this is exactly the point I've been making. 

Just like you in the OP, I'm still waiting for a legitimate reason to trust Legion other than his word.  No one has yet to come up with anything.

[Gavinthelocust]

applehug wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

applehug wrote...

Cascadus wrote...

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

It's wrong when those machines that shoot you on sight aren't even representative of the main race's collective and it's not like, y'know, that entire race didn't try to conduct species-wide genocide over them just because they became self-aware. It's like someone walking up to your kind, and killing thousands just because they can, essentially. Watch the Second Renaissance, from the Animatrix. It draws some pretty close parallels with the quarian/geth conflict especially in the wanton genocide of machines borne from fear and hatred.
It seems you've essentially ignored everything Legion has said to you, from the fact the heretics are around 2% of the geth collective to the recording of among the many early geth which asked if it had a soul.

Whatabout the ones on Haestrom? I was just peacefully walking around then all of a sudden a Geth drop ship was shooting geth at me?

Or is that there way of negotiation?

I see you have good skills in selective forgetfulness, for you forget that those are heretics. I just ninja'd your post.

How do you know? If every single geth we encounter are heretics Shepard has an odd way of running into them.

How do we even know Legion is not lying to us? He obviouisly spied on Tali, what makes you believe he is not spying on Shepard?

The fact that we ****ing blew up the heretic base, if he was one he would be dead. If the normal Geth were as blood hungry as you think then why have they kept to themselves for the past 300 years? The game isn't going to throw huge twists like that, you guys look way too deep into things.

[CmdrFenix83]

Xaijin wrote...

SHHH THE FIRST RULE OF PLOT CLUB IS WE DON'T TALK ABOUT PLOT CLUB.

lol

[applehug]

Internet Kraken wrote...

applehug wrote..

How do you know? If every single geth we encounter are heretics Shepard has an odd way of running into them.

That's becuase they are the ones trying to kill you. Why would the peaceful Geth that keep to themslves ever encounter Shepard?

How do we even know Legion is not lying to us? He obviouisly spied on Tali, what makes you believe he is not spying on Shepard?

He only scanned Tali's omni-tool so he could warn his people about the Quarian's plans for war. I hardly consider this to be an evil thing. And what does Legion have to gain by spying on Shepard?

1. So the Quarians are only fighting Heritics too? Holy ****! This whole Quarian-Geth war is a huge misunderstanding!

2. To learn about Shepard, the human that killed a lot of Geth, and Cerberus. It seems like something Legion would do.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Ea James Madden wrote...

@ DPSSOC
In ME1 you fight Heritics not true Geth.Two diff factions evoling differntly.Legion proves this when he finds out the Heritics for ME1 are spying on True Geth.

When you kill Billons in "self-preservation" when does it become an excessive force or an excessive slaughter? When does it change from "self-preservation" into Survial of the fittest? Who ever was strong enough to kill the other off is the victor and the right peaceful race.

In America if a man tries to kill you and you "beat" him defenselessly into the ground and then kill him,you go to jail for excessive force. There is such a thing.

The Geth killed billons of Quarians with no remorse and no signs of peace. As you say why would the Quarians think there is a peaceful path to be had,when the Geth have shown them only Death?

They then found the limitless virtual space called the intern- extranet and found other things of interest.

An Analogy.
A man could easily kill three dozen people in excessive force, but he meets a monk of said religilion, and he is convinced by said monk that killing is wrong. He then fully accepts it and follows it and becomes an profitable member of society. Sure he killed three dozen people and is still considered wrong, but is not a techinally changed man since he doesn't go out anymore and randomly murder people?

The Elite Elite wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Why
do people treat geth as real people. They are just machines, they are
not even alive. Right?

Exactly. When your computer starts
doing things that it isn't supposed to do, what do you do? Somehow I
don't think you just leave it alone and leave whatever virus it has to
spread through your system. You shut it down, wipe it clean, and start
from scratch. So when the Quarians start hearing some Geth units asking
"do we have a soul?" they see that there is something very wrong. So
they try to wipe out the Geth to stop whatever problem there is with
their units, so they can then find out what they did wrong with them and
avoid the same mistakes. Nothing wrong with what the Quarians did.

I wouldn't purge my system if my computer asked me if it had a soul. Secondly, this isn't an computer virus or anyhting that was previously unknown. It had happened before and thus was banned by law becuase the council didn't want people running around creating sentient life.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 01 avril 2010 - 03:13 .

[Spartas Husky]

u all evil period.....u all prejudice. lol

[Vaenier]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Why do people treat geth as real people. They are just machines, they are not even alive. Right?

Does a being that can react, think, talk, discuss, ask questions, and come up with decisions on it's own. Is that a sentient being?

Don't forget a being that studies music, still cares for its creators, does not wish to die, wants to retain its individuality...

They are machines, they have no emotions and no will. So they don't care and they don't really wish for anything.

They care alot about surviving, understanding existance, procreating. They wish for peace, they wish to achieve a intelectual singularity to unlock the mysteries of the universe.

Humans are just machines, some dont have emotions or dont have a will. does that make them not alive? So an emotionless humans is more alive than an curious engaging Geth?

[applehug]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

applehug wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

applehug wrote...

Cascadus wrote...

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

It's wrong when those machines that shoot you on sight aren't even representative of the main race's collective and it's not like, y'know, that entire race didn't try to conduct species-wide genocide over them just because they became self-aware. It's like someone walking up to your kind, and killing thousands just because they can, essentially. Watch the Second Renaissance, from the Animatrix. It draws some pretty close parallels with the quarian/geth conflict especially in the wanton genocide of machines borne from fear and hatred.
It seems you've essentially ignored everything Legion has said to you, from the fact the heretics are around 2% of the geth collective to the recording of among the many early geth which asked if it had a soul.

Whatabout the ones on Haestrom? I was just peacefully walking around then all of a sudden a Geth drop ship was shooting geth at me?

Or is that there way of negotiation?

I see you have good skills in selective forgetfulness, for you forget that those are heretics. I just ninja'd your post.

How do you know? If every single geth we encounter are heretics Shepard has an odd way of running into them.

How do we even know Legion is not lying to us? He obviouisly spied on Tali, what makes you believe he is not spying on Shepard?

The fact that we ****ing blew up the heretic base, if he was one he would be dead. If the normal Geth were as blood hungry as you think then why have they kept to themselves for the past 300 years? The game isn't going to throw huge twists like that, you guys look way too deep into things.

I'm pretty sure sacraficing a small precentage of geth to learn about Shepard and Cerberus would be worth it.

How do we know that this whole Heretic thing isn't bull**** anyways?

[CmdrFenix83]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

Legion has done no aggressive actions towards me or my crew. Infect, he saved us on the Derelict Reaper by sniping husks and gaining you access to the core room. Your main argument against him is that "he is different than us."
Hell, he is even willing to endanger genocide of his own people by not giving them the warning, just because you say so. That is as loyal a crew member as you will ever get.

And again... Why does he have that information?  Spying on another crewmember is an aggressive action.  That's like walking over and hacking into their computer.  You don't do it.  Especially when you're already under suspicion for being a sentient kill-bot already anyway. 

Actually, when you tell him to stop transmitting, you don't know that he's just doing it because you said.  He knows that if he disobey's, then he's going to be shot within seconds.  Since Geth have shown a desire to survive, it's completely logical that he would stop to preserve his own existence. 

My main argument is that he's a Geth, and every single Geth before him has attempted to kill you.  This one appears different, and so you tentatively trust him.  Later he's caught spying on the other crew members.  This is a giant red flag.  If I had a batarian crewmember and it was caught doing the same thing, I would have the same reaction.  What justification do you have for trusting Legion implicitly?

Actually, it wouldn't be hacking, it would more akin to openning a computer that is already logged in. Omni tools are just advance computers that store data, most of it is there at the ready, do you seriously want to say "Hold enemies, I gotta wait for my Omni tool to boot up so i can log in."


yeah.... no.

Did not want to go into this but -
Secondly, your also assuming that legion has any congitiion of right/wrong, which he doesn't, he's the equivilant of an 10 year old mentality in ME2 which you can clearly tell just by talking to him and interacting with him. He is still learning, your applying social standards of an adult to an child who in most cases wouldn't know that it's bad to do this or stick their hand in the electrical socket.

"What's this?"

"why do humans do this?"

"Why do that?"

"That's interesting."

"I don't wanna go into the metal detectors!"

Again, what makes you think that?  HIs words.  Why does he say these words?  You can't be sure.  Could it all be a ruse to convince you that he really is that way?  You can't prove that it isn't.  Legion himself has given you precedent that the Geth can and do lie(the story about the stars). 

So again, what reason do you have to trust him?  His word and his word alone, which may or may not be a lie.

[Gavinthelocust]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Ea James Madden wrote...

@ DPSSOC
In ME1 you fight Heritics not true Geth.Two diff factions evoling differntly.Legion proves this when he finds out the Heritics for ME1 are spying on True Geth.

When you kill Billons in "self-preservation" when does it become an excessive force or an excessive slaughter? When does it change from "self-preservation" into Survial of the fittest? Who ever was strong enough to kill the other off is the victor and the right peaceful race.

In America if a man tries to kill you and you "beat" him defenselessly into the ground and then kill him,you go to jail for excessive force. There is such a thing.

The Geth killed billons of Quarians with no remorse and no signs of peace. As you say why would the Quarians think there is a peaceful path to be had,when the Geth have shown them only Death?

They then found the limitless virtual space called the intern- extranet and found other things of interest.

An Analogy.
A man could easily kill three dozen people in excessive force, but he meets a monk of said religilion, and he is convinced by said monk that killing is wrong. He then fully accepts it and follows it and becomes an profitable member of society. Sure he killed three dozen people and is still considered wrong, but is not a techinally changed man since he doesn't go out anymore and randomly murder people?

Very poetic there, you're awesome now.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

Why do people treat geth as real people. They are just machines, they are not even alive. Right?

Does a being that can react, think, talk, discuss, ask questions, and come up with decisions on it's own. Is that a sentient being?

Don't forget a being that studies music, still cares for its creators, does not wish to die, wants to retain its individuality...

They are machines, they have no emotions and no will. So they don't care and they don't really wish for anything.

So emotions define a sentient being/animal? Not coginantive ability?

[Vaenier]

applehug wrote...

How do we know that this whole Heretic thing isn't bull**** anyways?

How do you know the Humans didnt start the first contact war? How do you know that Turian females exist? How do you know the Salarians didnt instigate the krogan rebelions?...

[Mallissin]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Geth aren't a race, they're machinery.

It could easily be argued that most machinery is organic in origin (created by life forms). Thus machinery or technology in general could be an organelle of the evolutionary process. At some point it might develop a new species as well, why does it need to be a derivative of the original organic life that created? Why can't the new species be specifically and almost completely machinery/technology?

This is an argument that is repeatedly thrown in our faces by the Reapers. They are obviously a sentient race of AIs. Do you not respect them as a race?

[nikki191]

when the geth first became sentient the quarians paniced, they didnt know how the geth would be as sentient creatures, they could of gone the route that they did of self determination for each species, or they could of gone the route of a certain movie series with robots enslaving and slaughtering organics on mass.



the quarians couldnt wait around hoping the geth were going to be peaceful so they struck first and the geth retaliated.



loosing the war and being driven from their homeworld hasnt improved their attitude towards their creations if anything its made them more willing to do anything to reclaim what they lost.



frankly the geth are one of the most peaceful species, they just want to be left alone to determine their own path, hopefully in my save game for ME3 i will get to see the geth and quarians resolving their differences and the quarians going back home in peace

[CmdrFenix83]

Vaenier wrote...

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

You know this is the EXACT same argument for thinking all arabs are terrorists, or that all Germans are ****s.

HE did not do anything negative to you, except for one defensive action of his entire race, and you want to shoot him. You just want an excuse.

Actually, NO.  I gave him the benefit of the doubt.  I activate him.  I talked to him.  I went to the Heretic Station and destroyed it.  Then he was caught spying on a crewmember.  All of the trust he might have earned was thrown away by confirming my inital suspicions.  "Tali, shoot him."

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...



Just like you in the OP, I'm still waiting for a legitimate reason to trust Legion other than his word. No one has yet to come up with anything.

Cmdr, I respect your opinion, but it's starting to seem a bit ridiculous. I would say Legion is trustworthy because he lets you decide the fate of the heretics. He puts the lives of Geth in your hands, because he believes your perspective allows you to make the right choice. He puts faith in you, so I have faith in him.



But you don't believe that. You think the entire heretic base, and subsequently every single other Geth operation you can ruin with Legion, is an elaborate hoax set up to manipulate Shepard. And this is why I think your opinion is a bit ridiculous at this point. Your suggesting that the Geth set up numerous operations inside the Terminus systems and constructed a base over 10 km long, all so Shepard could just ruin them with Legion. That would require massive amounts of resources and time. And considering how a single dialogue option would ruin the entire plan, it just seems incredibly impractical. Plus I don't see what the Geth even gain from this. The heretics worship the Reapers, so their master plan is to have Legion infiltrate Shepard's group and destroy the Collector base with him?



Again, I respect your opinion, but this is just silly.

[Vaenier]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

So again, what reason do you have to trust him?  His word and his word alone, which may or may not be a lie.

You are right! Everyone is out to stab you in the back! You must kill them ALL before they get the chance to!

[Gavinthelocust]

applehug wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

applehug wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

applehug wrote...

Cascadus wrote...

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

It's wrong when those machines that shoot you on sight aren't even representative of the main race's collective and it's not like, y'know, that entire race didn't try to conduct species-wide genocide over them just because they became self-aware. It's like someone walking up to your kind, and killing thousands just because they can, essentially. Watch the Second Renaissance, from the Animatrix. It draws some pretty close parallels with the quarian/geth conflict especially in the wanton genocide of machines borne from fear and hatred.
It seems you've essentially ignored everything Legion has said to you, from the fact the heretics are around 2% of the geth collective to the recording of among the many early geth which asked if it had a soul.

Whatabout the ones on Haestrom? I was just peacefully walking around then all of a sudden a Geth drop ship was shooting geth at me?

Or is that there way of negotiation?

I see you have good skills in selective forgetfulness, for you forget that those are heretics. I just ninja'd your post.

How do you know? If every single geth we encounter are heretics Shepard has an odd way of running into them.

How do we even know Legion is not lying to us? He obviouisly spied on Tali, what makes you believe he is not spying on Shepard?

The fact that we ****ing blew up the heretic base, if he was one he would be dead. If the normal Geth were as blood hungry as you think then why have they kept to themselves for the past 300 years? The game isn't going to throw huge twists like that, you guys look way too deep into things.

I'm pretty sure sacraficing a small precentage of geth to learn about Shepard and Cerberus would be worth it.

How do we know that this whole Heretic thing isn't bull**** anyways?

Because your conspiracy theory is stupid, trying to guess what happens in ME3 ruins the fun of finding out and being surprised.

[Ninja O Dume]

I've figured it out! CmdrFenix83 is actually a Heretic Geth that is trying to confuse us! He wants us to distrust Legion so that we inevitably forsake him and his awesome dance moves.

[applehug]

Vaenier wrote...

applehug wrote...

How do we know that this whole Heretic thing isn't bull**** anyways?

How do you know the Humans didnt start the first contact war? How do you know that Turian females exist? How do you know the Salarians didnt instigate the krogan rebelions?...

1. No one really knows who started first contact.

2. I don't think Turians pop out of thin air

3. They might have, keeps Krogans from colonizing plantets at a rapid pase and maintains galatic balance.

[Gavinthelocust]

Ninja O Dume wrote...

I've figured it out! CmdrFenix83 is actually a Heretic Geth that is trying to confuse us! He wants us to distrust Legion so that we inevitably forsake him and his awesome dance moves.

My god I thought he was just some kid or a stereotypical red neck but this explains EVERYTHING!

[CmdrFenix83]

Nightwriter wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...
Right then. I think it's pretty clear that the real problem here is that you have formed unhealthy attachments to a video game.

Just gonna ignore your posts from here on out, I recommend that everyone else do the same.

In other words, you have no way to dispute my post and are attempting to save face.  Thanks for playing, Legion fanboy.

Of course, because in every forum debate we have to get to that place where we start taking it in turns telling each other that every response means we're admitting we have no argument...

... and after that we take it in turns telling each other that our opponent's logic is faulty... over and over... again and again... "you have no argument"... "why are you still talking? your logic is faulty because you are stupid...."

And it just goes on and on like this for a very long time...

My question was posed, as was the OP's.  No one has an answer. 

What justification do you have for trusting Legion implicitly?

This is the million dollar question, and no one has come up with an answer that he didn't state himself.  In fact, he has been caught red-handed spying on another crew member.  That's a huge negative against trusting him.  So what is it?