587 réponses à ce sujet

[applehug]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

applehug wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

applehug wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

applehug wrote...

Cascadus wrote...

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

It's wrong when those machines that shoot you on sight aren't even representative of the main race's collective and it's not like, y'know, that entire race didn't try to conduct species-wide genocide over them just because they became self-aware. It's like someone walking up to your kind, and killing thousands just because they can, essentially. Watch the Second Renaissance, from the Animatrix. It draws some pretty close parallels with the quarian/geth conflict especially in the wanton genocide of machines borne from fear and hatred.
It seems you've essentially ignored everything Legion has said to you, from the fact the heretics are around 2% of the geth collective to the recording of among the many early geth which asked if it had a soul.

Whatabout the ones on Haestrom? I was just peacefully walking around then all of a sudden a Geth drop ship was shooting geth at me?

Or is that there way of negotiation?

I see you have good skills in selective forgetfulness, for you forget that those are heretics. I just ninja'd your post.

How do you know? If every single geth we encounter are heretics Shepard has an odd way of running into them.

How do we even know Legion is not lying to us? He obviouisly spied on Tali, what makes you believe he is not spying on Shepard?

The fact that we ****ing blew up the heretic base, if he was one he would be dead. If the normal Geth were as blood hungry as you think then why have they kept to themselves for the past 300 years? The game isn't going to throw huge twists like that, you guys look way too deep into things.

I'm pretty sure sacraficing a small precentage of geth to learn about Shepard and Cerberus would be worth it.

How do we know that this whole Heretic thing isn't bull**** anyways?

Because your conspiracy theory is stupid, trying to guess what happens in ME3 ruins the fun of finding out and being surprised.

How is it stupid? Do you have any proof Legion is telling the truth.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...
Right then. I think it's pretty clear that the real problem here is that you have formed unhealthy attachments to a video game.

Just gonna ignore your posts from here on out, I recommend that everyone else do the same.

In other words, you have no way to dispute my post and are attempting to save face.  Thanks for playing, Legion fanboy.

Of course, because in every forum debate we have to get to that place where we start taking it in turns telling each other that every response means we're admitting we have no argument...

... and after that we take it in turns telling each other that our opponent's logic is faulty... over and over... again and again... "you have no argument"... "why are you still talking? your logic is faulty because you are stupid...."

And it just goes on and on like this for a very long time...

My question was posed, as was the OP's.  No one has an answer. 

What justification do you have for trusting Legion implicitly?

This is the million dollar question, and no one has come up with an answer that he didn't state himself.  In fact, he has been caught red-handed spying on another crew member.  That's a huge negative against trusting him.  So what is it? 

commander from the looks of it, your two pages behind, read up and then respond. don't respond to every single post that you have since missed. Read up and do one arguement instead of thirty seperate individual arguements.

[Mallissin]

applehug wrote...

How is it stupid? Do you have any proof Legion is telling the truth.

Faith in character. Legion protected you, risked himself to help you and put himself at your mercy.

[Vaenier]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Actually, NO.  I gave him the benefit of the doubt.  I activate him.  I talked to him.  I went to the Heretic Station and destroyed it.  Then he was caught spying on a crewmember.  All of the trust he might have earned was thrown away by confirming my inital suspicions.  "Tali, shoot him."

Ya know, its really hard to argue because we have two completely different Legions. Ours have different experiences, thus making them different people. Its clear that mine did nothing wrong. You can argue from what you saw that he was spying.
Neither of us is really more right about that...

[Ea James Madden]

@Andrew_Waltfeld



They then found the limitless virtual space called the intern- extranet and found other things of interest.



An Analogy.

A man could easily kill three dozen people in excessive force, but he meets a monk of said religilion, and he is convinced by said monk that killing is wrong. He then fully accepts it and follows it and becomes an profitable member of society. Sure he killed three dozen people and is still considered wrong, but is not a techinally changed man since he doesn't go out anymore and randomly murder people?



This makes little to no sense.I'm asking you to show or prove to me why Geth are peaceful.That does neither? I deff said the Geth could be peaceful,but I'm not assuming they are just because.

They looked on the internet and became peaceful.lol ok.Great proof. I recall this convo. I simple answered someone else by saying just because they remain isolated doen't mean their peaceful. And showed a set of examples. Something you have not.



And if what you are saying is true,why not try and correct the wrong they have committed if the internet changed them into a peaceful race? This can not be justified by "because the Quarians are also wrong and have not tried for peace".

[applehug]

Mallissin wrote...

applehug wrote...

How is it stupid? Do you have any proof Legion is telling the truth.

Faith in character. Legion protected you, risked himself to help you and put himself at your mercy.

So he can spy on you and Cerberus. Make the Geth look like victims so the Qurians won't get any support in their war against them. There are many reasons why he would want you on his side.

[CmdrFenix83]

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Already addressed this. No one on the ship advocates bringing him on and waking him. No one trusts him so blindly as Shepard. No one is going to walk up to the kill-bot and tell him about these things.

*If* you brought Legion with you to the Floatilla, then you're correct, he has reason to be suspicious. If you don't he has no way to know.

Okay, then explain to me this; on Tali's loyalty mission, you can acquire an upgrade for Legion's Geth shields. Is Legion supposed to believe that you got this on Illium? You go to the migrant fleet, spend a few hours there, and then return with Geth shield technology. Even if Legion somehow remained oblivious to everything said by every crewmate, this alone would be enough to hint that maybe the Quarians are experimenting on Geth.

The Quarians built the Geth.  My reasoning... since I don't trust Legion and am not stupid enough to light the powder keg... would have been simply...

Legion:  "Shepard-Commander.  It has come to our attention that you have technology in the armory to improve upon this mobile platform's kinetic barriers.  We desire to know where you obtained this information."

Shepard:  "Oh that?  We scrapped a Geth Collosus on Haestrom.  Tali salvaged the shields and attempted to adapt them to our hardsuits.  Couldn't configure them well enough for us or something.  Too powerful I guess.  If it'll help, we can go ahead and integrate that into yoru systems."

Then afterwads, to tell Tali and have her ready in case Legion mentions it to her.  This is, of course, while I'm still giving Legion the benefit of the doubt, before he throws that away by proving to be a spy.

[Ea James Madden]

Legion saves you on the Reaper ship for the benifit of your help...He doesn't save your life.3 Husks will never kill my Shepard.He has taken down a Reaper. What real threat does a Husk hold?
And remeber without Shepard Legion would have died on the Reaper ship.So Shepard saves and helps Legion on the Reaper ship,not the other way around.Legion is just more open then other Geth and speaks.Something you have not encountered before. When any other crewmate helps you or kills something you don't go around swearing he/she saved Shepards life.

Modifié par Ea James Madden, 01 avril 2010 - 03:31 .

[Bucky_McLachlan]

applehug wrote...

So he can spy on you and Cerberus. Make
the Geth look like victims so the Qurians won't get any support in
their war against them. There are many reasons why he would want you on
his side.

Make the Geth look like victims? What are you people talking about? You've had the option to sympathize with the Geth since the first game, and it has always been clear that the Quarians preemptively attacked them.

In fact I made sure in every playthrough of ME1 to make sure and tell Tali that her people got what they deserved because they attempted to commit genocide against a sentient race.

There's really no debate here.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 01 avril 2010 - 03:33 .

[Mallissin]

applehug wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Faith in character. Legion protected you, risked himself to help you and put himself at your mercy.

So he can spy on you and Cerberus. Make the Geth look like victims so the Qurians won't get any support in their war against them. There are many reasons why he would want you on his side.

The same paranoid argument could be made of anyone, from the main characters down to the crew members.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Ea James Madden wrote...

@Andrew_Waltfeld

They then found the limitless virtual space called the intern- extranet and found other things of interest.

An Analogy.
A man could easily kill three dozen people in excessive force, but he meets a monk of said religilion, and he is convinced by said monk that killing is wrong. He then fully accepts it and follows it and becomes an profitable member of society. Sure he killed three dozen people and is still considered wrong, but is not a techinally changed man since he doesn't go out anymore and randomly murder people?

This makes little to no sense.I'm asking you to show or prove to me why Geth are peaceful.That does neither? I deff said the Geth could be peaceful,but I'm not assuming they are just because.
They looked on the internet and became peaceful.lol ok.Great proof. I recall this convo. I simple answered someone else by saying just because they remain isolated doen't mean their peaceful. And showed a set of examples. Something you have not.

And if what you are saying is true,why not try and correct the wrong they have committed if the internet changed them into a peaceful race? This can not be justified by "because the Quarians are also wrong and have not tried for peace".

Makes Perfect Sense. I am using your "geth are robots and can't be trusted" arguement against you. The geth have access to the extranet, basically future of the internet. The amount of infomation on culture, pasttimes, foods and more to the geth are more than enough to slowly convert the geth over to a peacefull conclusion because when your all about war and death... it gets boring. Your also assuming that they are not Sentient in the sense that they can change. Everyone can change if they choose to change. In terms of legion and the geth, they just need an concensus of 1/2 majority and everyone does it. I just gave you an modern day example of how that is possible. Your assuming that the individual programs are not capable of changing their values and your also assuming that geth can not adapt. Which they clearly can.

Geth = murder of 12 people
Extranet = Monk
Religion = infomation about other speices culture, reiligion, philosophy etc.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 01 avril 2010 - 03:33 .

[Gavinthelocust]

[quote]applehug wrote...

[quote]Gavinthelocust wrote...

[quote]applehug wrote...

[quote]Gavinthelocust wrote...

[quote]applehug wrote...

[quote]Gavinthelocust wrote...

[quote]applehug wrote...

[quote]Cascadus wrote...

[quote]applehug wrote...

[quote]Vaenier wrote...

[quote]CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.[/quote]
Racism.

/Thread
[/quote]

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

[/quote]
It's wrong when those machines that shoot you on sight aren't even representative of the main race's collective and it's not like, y'know, that entire race didn't try to conduct species-wide genocide over them just because they became self-aware. It's like someone walking up to your kind, and killing thousands just because they can, essentially. Watch the Second Renaissance, from the Animatrix. It draws some pretty close parallels with the quarian/geth conflict especially in the wanton genocide of machines borne from fear and hatred.
It seems you've essentially ignored everything Legion has said to you, from the fact the heretics are around 2% of the geth collective to the recording of among the many early geth which asked if it had a soul.
[/quote]

Whatabout the ones on Haestrom? I was just peacefully walking around then all of a sudden a Geth drop ship was shooting geth at me?

Or is that there way of negotiation?

[/quote]
I see you have good skills in selective forgetfulness, for you forget that those are heretics. I just ninja'd your post.
[/quote]

How do you know? If every single geth we encounter are heretics Shepard has an odd way of running into them.

How do we even know Legion is not lying to us? He obviouisly spied on Tali, what makes you believe he is not spying on Shepard?

[/quote]
The fact that we ****ing blew up the heretic base, if he was one he would be dead. If the normal Geth were as blood hungry as you think then why have they kept to themselves for the past 300 years? The game isn't going to throw huge twists like that, you guys look way too deep into things.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure sacraficing a small precentage of geth to learn about Shepard and Cerberus would be worth it.

How do we know that this whole Heretic thing isn't bull**** anyways?

[/quote]
Because your conspiracy theory is stupid, trying to guess what happens in ME3 ruins the fun of finding out and being surprised.
[/quote]

How is it stupid? Do you have any proof Legion is telling the truth.

[/quote]
Legion was on the reaper trying to destroy it before Shepard even arrived.
He has helped you kill Geth.
He has risked his life to save Shepard.
No signs of hostility to Tali even when he is about to be shot by her.
I just think you are siding with the Quarians because Tali is a Quarian and racist to the Geth. Have the Krogan spied on the Turians and Salarians because of the genophage? no. 

[Mallissin]

(Please trim the quotes, guys. Turning into a wall of text.)

[applehug]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Make the Geth look like victims? What are you people talking about? You've had the option to sympathize with the Geth since the first game, and it has always been clear that the Quarians preemptively attacked them.

There's really no debate here.

Except the Galatic comunity isn't to fond of the Geth after the attack on the citadel. I would assume having people think it was an off-branch of geth that did it would amke the Geth look better.

[CmdrFenix83]

DPSSOC wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Already addressed this.  No one on the ship advocates bringing him on and waking him.  No one trusts him so blindly as Shepard.  No one is going to walk up to the kill-bot and tell him about these things. 

*If* you brought Legion with you to the Floatilla, then you're correct, he has reason to be suspicious.  If you don't he has no way to know. 

I'm not suggesting someone told Legion I'm saying Legion might have heard it mentioned by someone.  Two crewmembers having a conversation and through the miracle that is sound other people can hear it.  And who's to say EDI wouldn't tell him, AI's gotta stick together right?  My point was that there are plenty of non-invasive ways he could have found out, unless Legion is blind and deaf it defies probability that on a ship that small he didn't hear something.

Personally, I wouldn't have given him free-run of the ship.  Probably left him inside the Airlock.  Not like he needs food or sleep or has to worry about boredom.  This information would have been limited to Shepard, Tali, Garrus and EDI, period.  I would have explained that on the Alarei before leaving it.  This was a personal errand for Tali, there's no reason that *anyone* needs explicit details.

Other than those four, the only details that would have gotten out would have been that there was an incident on the Alarei that Tali was blamed for.  We diffused the situation and Tali was found innocent of the charges.  Period.  If you're covering up the evidence, you do a damned poor job of it by running around and spreading it to everyone you know.

EDI wouldn't have told him anything without permission from Shepard.  If nothing else, I would have specifically told EDI not to talk to Legion.  She's a shackled AI and proved that she not only is trustworthy, but completely loyal to Shepard.

[Theoristitis]

 The Geth are trying to answer: "What are we? Why are we here? What is the soul, and do we have it?" Etc.

They know they're not going to find the answer killing their Creators. Except for those who think God spoke to them (thus giving them an answer of a sort), the Geth species has no reason to kill Quarians, or any organics, apart from self-defense, and by machine-logic they therefore won't attack said organics. Hence, peaceful.
Which is not the same as passive/pacifist. They'll fight and win if attacked. But they are peaceful.

[Internet Kraken]

[quote]CmdrFenix83 wrote...
-Quoting failure. My fault-
[quote]



You think Legion would really believe that? You think he would believe that you got the tech on Haestrom, despite the fact that you just returned with it from the Alerai? You think he wouldn't be able to tell that it didn't come from the Collosus? That he wouldn't find your sudden acquistion of the tech and your refusal to tell him about the details of your mission even slighty suspicous? I mean really, this is ridiculous. Not only are you saying that Legion is completley oblivious to leverything said by every crew member, but is also incredibly gullible.

Modifié par Internet Kraken, 01 avril 2010 - 03:41 .

[Vaenier]

AwesomeEffect2 wrote...

An emotionless human is a zombie but at least conscious.  But what about geth? Are they?
Even today we can't completely understand the full human structure and that is why we don't know what makes us conscious. With geth it is a different story, they are machines and their structures are completely understandable.

So emotions have nothing to do with life.

We didnt build the human brain from scratch, but we did develope the computer from scratch. makes it so much easier to understand when you know how its built from the ground up.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

applehug wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Make the Geth look like victims? What are you people talking about? You've had the option to sympathize with the Geth since the first game, and it has always been clear that the Quarians preemptively attacked them.

There's really no debate here.

Except the Galatic comunity isn't to fond of the Geth after the attack on the citadel. I would assume having people think it was an off-branch of geth that did it would amke the Geth look better.

Except this is you:

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 01 avril 2010 - 03:38 .

[MasterMegatron]

If the quarians are open to peace with the geth, so will the geth. If they want war, so will the geth. The geth don't give a crap about organics one way or the other, which is why they haven't left the Veil in 300 years.

[Gavinthelocust]

applehug wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Make the Geth look like victims? What are you people talking about? You've had the option to sympathize with the Geth since the first game, and it has always been clear that the Quarians preemptively attacked them.

There's really no debate here.

Except the Galatic comunity isn't to fond of the Geth after the attack on the citadel. I would assume having people think it was an off-branch of geth that did it would amke the Geth look better.

Not everything is a conspiracy theory, is it so hard to accept that they just are? If Bioware wanted to destroy the feeling surprise of having a Geth on your team by making them bad again they'd hint at it instead of just flat out do it. That would be like if Star Trek had the Klingons be bad again for no good reason.

[applehug]

[quote]Gavinthelocust wrote...

[quote]applehug wrote...

[quote]Gavinthelocust wrote...

[quote]applehug wrote...

[quote]Gavinthelocust wrote...

[quote]applehug wrote...

[quote]Gavinthelocust wrote...

[quote]applehug wrote...

[quote]Cascadus wrote...

[quote]applehug wrote...

[quote]Vaenier wrote...

[quote]CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.[/quote]
Racism.

/Thread
[/quote]

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

[/quote]
It's wrong when those machines that shoot you on sight aren't even representative of the main race's collective and it's not like, y'know, that entire race didn't try to conduct species-wide genocide over them just because they became self-aware. It's like someone walking up to your kind, and killing thousands just because they can, essentially. Watch the Second Renaissance, from the Animatrix. It draws some pretty close parallels with the quarian/geth conflict especially in the wanton genocide of machines borne from fear and hatred.
It seems you've essentially ignored everything Legion has said to you, from the fact the heretics are around 2% of the geth collective to the recording of among the many early geth which asked if it had a soul.
[/quote]

Whatabout the ones on Haestrom? I was just peacefully walking around then all of a sudden a Geth drop ship was shooting geth at me?

Or is that there way of negotiation?

[/quote]
I see you have good skills in selective forgetfulness, for you forget that those are heretics. I just ninja'd your post.
[/quote]

How do you know? If every single geth we encounter are heretics Shepard has an odd way of running into them.

How do we even know Legion is not lying to us? He obviouisly spied on Tali, what makes you believe he is not spying on Shepard?

[/quote]
The fact that we ****ing blew up the heretic base, if he was one he would be dead. If the normal Geth were as blood hungry as you think then why have they kept to themselves for the past 300 years? The game isn't going to throw huge twists like that, you guys look way too deep into things.
[/quote]

I'm pretty sure sacraficing a small precentage of geth to learn about Shepard and Cerberus would be worth it.

How do we know that this whole Heretic thing isn't bull**** anyways?

[/quote]
Because your conspiracy theory is stupid, trying to guess what happens in ME3 ruins the fun of finding out and being surprised.
[/quote]

How is it stupid? Do you have any proof Legion is telling the truth.

[/quote]
Legion was on the reaper trying to destroy it before Shepard even arrived.
He has helped you kill Geth.
He has risked his life to save Shepard.
No signs of hostility to Tali even when he is about to be shot by her.
I just think you are siding with the Quarians because Tali is a Quarian and racist to the Geth. Have the Krogan spied on the Turians and Salarians because of the genophage? no. 
[/quote]

Like I said, it is part of some intricate plan to get Shepards trust and the Trust of the Galaxy, as well as to spy on Shepard. The reason Krogans never did that is because Krogans would much rather heads against the Turians and Salarians than to spy on them. To them that would be dishonorable.

[Ea James Madden]

Andrew_Waltfeld can't best me so you make things up? I have always said the Geth are Sentient,and I have never stated all Geth are and robots can't be trusted. I simple asked why do you assume Geth are peaceful and why do you trust Legion.Never said it was wrong to do so.Why don't you try and read what I type. LOL You are a joke and I will not converse with you past this moment.lol And your "Analogy" is not proof of anything. Just another random assumption you are making.