587 réponses à ce sujet

[CmdrFenix83]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Evolution is not an abomination, they reached sentience the same way humans did from apes.

They achieved a fake imitation of sentience through having enough processing power to do so from having so many Geth networked together.  These aren't AI.  They aren't truly sentient.  It's a horrific side-effect of the neural network that resulted in malfunction.  They're imitating life, not living it.

[Nightwriter]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Evolution is not an abomination, they reached sentience the same way humans did from apes.

They achieved a fake imitation of sentience through having enough processing power to do so from having so many Geth networked together.  These aren't AI.  They aren't truly sentient.  It's a horrific side-effect of the neural network that resulted in malfunction.  They're imitating life, not living it.

I'm sorry, but my imperfect human belief really is...

If it can ask if it has a soul, it has a soul.

[The Elite Elite]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Legion was on the reaper trying to destroy it before Shepard even arrived.
He has helped you kill Geth.
He has risked his life to save Shepard.
No signs of hostility to Tali even when he is about to be shot by her.
I just think you are siding with the Quarians because Tali is a Quarian and racist to the Geth. Have the Krogan spied on the Turians and Salarians because of the genophage? no. 

You say this as if Legion is an individual. The Geth are a hive-mind, a collective. If there is the possiblity of gain from risking a single Geth unit, it is no big deal to lose it. All that matters is what is good for the collective, not an individual unit.

[applehug]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

applehug wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Make the Geth look like victims? What are you people talking about? You've had the option to sympathize with the Geth since the first game, and it has always been clear that the Quarians preemptively attacked them.

There's really no debate here.

Except the Galatic comunity isn't to fond of the Geth after the attack on the citadel. I would assume having people think it was an off-branch of geth that did it would amke the Geth look better.

Not everything is a conspiracy theory, is it so hard to accept that they just are? If Bioware wanted to destroy the feeling surprise of having a Geth on your team by making them bad again they'd hint at it instead of just flat out do it. That would be like if Star Trek had the Klingons be bad again for no good reason.

Did anyone expect the Protheans to be bug creatures living in the galatic core based on the first game? Did anyone one expect the Reapers to make more of themselves based of the species they destroy? Just because you don't expect something to happen doesn't mean it won't happen.

This is a video game set in a fictional universe. Anything can happen.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Already addressed this.  No one on the ship advocates bringing him on and waking him.  No one trusts him so blindly as Shepard.  No one is going to walk up to the kill-bot and tell him about these things. 

*If* you brought Legion with you to the Floatilla, then you're correct, he has reason to be suspicious.  If you don't he has no way to know. 

I'm not suggesting someone told Legion I'm saying Legion might have heard it mentioned by someone.  Two crewmembers having a conversation and through the miracle that is sound other people can hear it.  And who's to say EDI wouldn't tell him, AI's gotta stick together right?  My point was that there are plenty of non-invasive ways he could have found out, unless Legion is blind and deaf it defies probability that on a ship that small he didn't hear something.

Personally, I wouldn't have given him free-run of the ship.  Probably left him inside the Airlock.  Not like he needs food or sleep or has to worry about boredom.  This information would have been limited to Shepard, Tali, Garrus and EDI, period.  I would have explained that on the Alarei before leaving it.  This was a personal errand for Tali, there's no reason that *anyone* needs explicit details.

Other than those four, the only details that would have gotten out would have been that there was an incident on the Alarei that Tali was blamed for.  We diffused the situation and Tali was found innocent of the charges.  Period.  If you're covering up the evidence, you do a damned poor job of it by running around and spreading it to everyone you know.

EDI wouldn't have told him anything without permission from Shepard.  If nothing else, I would have specifically told EDI not to talk to Legion.  She's a shackled AI and proved that she not only is trustworthy, but completely loyal to Shepard.

Yet you could not, and thus you can not ASSUME someone else did not let it slip.

applehug wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Because
your conspiracy theory is stupid, trying to guess what happens in ME3
ruins the fun of finding out and being surprised.

How
is it stupid? Do you have any proof Legion is telling the truth.

I have pointed seavral things

1) Legion acts  more like a child than an adult when it comes, he is there to learn from the organics. If he was an devious bastard he would shut him self up in some place and be alone. O wait, he basically like an child running around trying to understand the beetle on the leaf and why people drink achohel and get STD's, and do other things that if from legion's perspective would be completely stupid. Huh. Not the personality I expected from a murdering geth.

2) Amount of resources for herectic base and dead/converted geth, amount of geth ships at the citadel, it just doesn't add up to billions of operating geth even if only 15% have platforms, there is still plenty of workers to have built enough ships to destroy the arriving human fleet at the citadel. If soverign had full control of the geth, he would have alot more than 2 dozen ships there helping him. That infomation is from the codex and from the quarians about how many operating machines there were roughly at the start.

3) Beacuse other than "spying." And Ijust imanagine I threw in the turian air qoutes here, you and cmdr are fruitlessly trying to pin prickholes in our arguments while we rip out the spine of yours. Your basically say "he's an robot, can't be trusted. That is all."

To be honest, you guys are stone-walling us when we are giving you legitmate analogys and explanations and my analogy with the man and religion was plainly simple.

Reiligion opened his eyes and he changed his way. He got more infomationad thus adjusted what he knew. Geth went from machines that were fighting for surivival to expanding their knowledge banks. Knowledge = power and like always, the more knowledge you have, the more perspective you have. The geth have the most collective perspective then any BEING in the galaxy since the geth have catgorized every single major event and minor event in any area of interest avaiable on the extra-net down to who started what.

I am sorry. But robots don't continue to be murders when they have access to this infomation and suppose to adapt on demand.

The Elite Elite wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Legion
was on the reaper trying to destroy it before Shepard even arrived.
He
has helped you kill Geth.
He has risked his life to save Shepard.
No
signs of hostility to Tali even when he is about to be shot by her.
I
just think you are siding with the Quarians because Tali is a Quarian
and racist to the Geth. Have the Krogan spied on the Turians and
Salarians because of the genophage? no. 

You say this
as if Legion is an individual. The Geth are a hive-mind, a collective.
If there is the possiblity of gain from risking a single Geth unit, it
is no big deal to lose it. All that matters is what is good for the
collective, not an individual unit.

.

They are hive minded as our brains are. Our brains are techinally hive minded. Our brain cells are each an program that has an specific function or helps other programs function.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 01 avril 2010 - 04:34 .

[eternalnightmare13]

I wouldn't consider the geth peaceful, but extreme isolationist. They stayed in the Persus Veil for 300 years or so. It wasn't until Soverign began to influence them that the Heretic emerged and began their attack on organics.

[Gavinthelocust]

The Elite Elite wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Legion was on the reaper trying to destroy it before Shepard even arrived.
He has helped you kill Geth.
He has risked his life to save Shepard.
No signs of hostility to Tali even when he is about to be shot by her.
I just think you are siding with the Quarians because Tali is a Quarian and racist to the Geth. Have the Krogan spied on the Turians and Salarians because of the genophage? no. 

You say this as if Legion is an individual. The Geth are a hive-mind, a collective. If there is the possiblity of gain from risking a single Geth unit, it is no big deal to lose it. All that matters is what is good for the collective, not an individual unit.

Knit pick my posts, how cute.
Wether it is the collective or individual, they still saved Shepard whenever they could.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

OP is clearly trolling.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 01 avril 2010 - 03:47 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Vaenier wrote...

Why does Legion save you on the Reaper?
Why are the husks attacking him?
Why is it possible for him to die from Collectors?
Why does he kill millions of Geth?
Why does he not sabotage anything?
Why does he do nothing hostile against you?
Do you know what paranoia means?
If you knew suspected an alien race were researching the equiviliant of a biological weapon with the sole intent of destroying your entire race, wouldnt you want to make sure?
Plus, my Legion helped clear out the Quarian ship, he had every right to investigate. [not that he would have to at that point, but they only wrote one possible conversation]

All of that can be summed up with a simple "he's an infiltrator".  You're aware that undercover cops do stuff like that all the time, right?  They commit a series of crimes to cement their cover.  Absolutely nothing Legion does justify the implicit loyalty.  He even advocates saving the Collector Base... perhaps because the real one in charge of him thinks it's a good idea?  We don't know, and have zero information to base trusting him on. 

We don't know if he's here simply to gather intel on us.  The Reapers have used sleeper agents like this before, Vigil has told us such.  Being caught spying as he was, immediately invalidated every single word he's stated, and everything he's done.

[Internet Kraken]

The Elite Elite wrote...

Gavinthelocust wrote...



Legion was on the reaper trying to destroy it before Shepard even arrived.

He has helped you kill Geth.

He has risked his life to save Shepard.

No signs of hostility to Tali even when he is about to be shot by her.

I just think you are siding with the Quarians because Tali is a Quarian and racist to the Geth. Have the Krogan spied on the Turians and Salarians because of the genophage? no.

You say this as if Legion is an individual. The Geth are a hive-mind, a collective. If there is the possiblity of gain from risking a single Geth unit, it is no big deal to lose it. All that matters is what is good for the collective, not an individual unit.

You're wrong though. The Geth are not a hive mind, they are a mind hive. They may be dependent on each other to remain sapient, but each Geth still has individual qualities. Each program has different opinions and beliefs. They are not one mind in a billion bodies. And the Geth do care when a unit is lost because it means they lose perspective. If you listen to Legion during his loyalty mission, you clearly see that the Geth value all perspectives.

[scxenophobe]

This level of role playing scares me.

[Mallissin]

Nightwriter wrote...

I'm sorry, but my imperfect human belief really is...

If it can ask if it has a soul, it has a soul.

If only every human believed it had a soul.

[CmdrFenix83]

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...
  Even the heretic station could have been a mostly empty vessel of VI controlled synthetics used to cement Legion's story to Shepard.

Really? Are you suggesting that every other Geth operation you can ruin with Legion is just an elaborate facade as well? This is a pretty big stretch.

Legion hands you the station on a platter... in my case, immediately after activating him, since I never do the IFF mission until everything else is complete.  He's proven that he can lie.  The other encounters is just him following his cover since you stumbled onto their operations. 

If a federal agency wants to get one of their own within a terrorist organization, you'd better believe they're willing to sacrifice a building to do it if the terrorist organization is a big enough threat.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

eternalnightmare13 wrote...

I wouldn't consider the geth peaceful, but extreme isolationist. They stayed in the Persus Veil for 300 years or so. It wasn't until Soverign began to influence them that the Heretic emerged and began their attack on organics.

I wouldn't consider them peaceful either like the salarians, turians and Asari and most of all humans, they will attack when provoke, otherwise they quite peacefull.

[Mallissin]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

OP is clearly trolling.

Trolls aren't allowed to call others trolls. Got it?

[scxenophobe]

Mallissin wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I'm sorry, but my imperfect human belief really is...

If it can ask if it has a soul, it has a soul.

If only every human believed it had a soul.

Does this unit have a... soul?

[Vaenier]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

All of that can be summed up with a simple "he's an infiltrator".  You're aware that undercover cops do stuff like that all the time, right?  They commit a series of crimes to cement their cover.  Absolutely nothing Legion does justify the implicit loyalty.  He even advocates saving the Collector Base... perhaps because the real one in charge of him thinks it's a good idea?  We don't know, and have zero information to base trusting him on. 

We don't know if he's here simply to gather intel on us.  The Reapers have used sleeper agents like this before, Vigil has told us such.  Being caught spying as he was, immediately invalidated every single word he's stated, and everything he's done.

As Shep is already stuck in a death trap, you want to save him so you can learn his weakness to kill him...?
They would blow up a huge military installation, wasting all those resources, instead of use them in the Citadel attack?

And as i said, my Legion was completely justified in checking Tali's data, even though it was not neccessary after helping clear out the Quarian ship.

[Ea James Madden]

A good point that defies what you belive equals a troll Mallissin?



I would love to see Bioware twist this plot in ME3.

[Theoristitis]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

They achieved a fake imitation of sentience through having enough processing power to do so from having so many Geth networked together.  These aren't AI.  They aren't truly sentient.  It's a horrific side-effect of the neural network that resulted in malfunction.  They're imitating life, not living it.

If humans had never communicated with each other, would we ever have asked ourselves about the soul? Individuals would have, and then died, and humanity as a whole would not be asking the question. Ever. Maybe we would achieve sentience at some point...but even historically IRL, it took a hell of a long time for us to do that.
Not the best analogy, but all I got at the moment.

Also, a certain Reaper told us that organic life was "an accident"...perhaps a horrific side-effect of genetic evolution, as they see it? All a matter of perspective.

[CmdrFenix83]

DPSSOC wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

DPSSOC wrote...

You can't even trust them.  A lots happened in two years Garrus and Tali have new loyalties, new priorities, and Mordin is former STG again has his own loyalties and priorities.  The only person Shepard can trust is...Shepard.  Good luck flying the ship by yourself after you've crippled it by ripping out the integrated AI.

Bull.  Tali proves her loyalty to Shepard on Freedom's Progress by telling him what Fraza did, and Garrus is more than happy to rejoin you.  Neither of them give you any reason to suspect them of anything.  Mordin is necessary to come up with a countermeasure to the Seeker swarms.  Would I trust Mordin implicitly?  No.  However, I need that countermeasure.  Mordin slowly earns the trust bestowed on him.  As do pretty much everyone else except Legion and Miranda.

DPSSOC wrote...

Azint wrote...
They both swore off whatever they were doing to rejoin the squad. Garrus really has nothing else to do, Tali changed her name for that, I'm pretty sure they can be trusted, in terms of loyatly at least.

That's just what they want you to think.  In all honesty my point was merely to illustrate that the only person you can ever really trust is yourself and with everyone else you're taking a leap of faith not to actually imply that Garrus, Tali, and Mordin can't be trusted.

Bottom of Page 4 easy to miss.

I didn't miss it.  Trust is something earned.  Garrus, Tali, Joker, and Chakwas all earned that trust already.  The other have to.  Miranda never earns it due to her loyalty to Cerberus.  Legion loses it when he's caught red-handed spying.

[Mallissin]

Ea James Madden wrote...

A good point that defies what you belive equals a troll Mallissin?

I would love to see Bioware twist this plot in ME3.

No, Bucky is a known forum troll.

[Akrylik]

the only thing that makes geth violent is their inhesitant ability to retaliate to threats, and since everyone wants them dead that would pretty much be all the time. On the flotilla legion said the geth would consider peace between quarians if they proved non-treacherous.

[CmdrFenix83]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Xaijin wrote...

No dude, Samara says she'll KILL YOU. Under your criteria that doesn't work. Under your criteria you have to shoot her right then and there.

Kill you if you make her do anything extremely dishonorable.  I have no problem with her, as I won't be making her do anything outside of her code.  All I've done is turn in criminals and execute a robot spy.  Beyond that I follow a mostly Paragon path.  I wouldn't have any issue with her.

A paragon is not a cop who turns in anyone who breaks the littlest rules, a paragon looks past differences and helps people no matter who they are. You seem much more like an renegade in the way you think everyone on the ship should die.

You're making stuff up.  I *never* said everyone should die.  I said I'd shoot Legion and dump the Cerberus stooges off to be detained.  In case you didn't notice while playing through the games, the Paragon options are the ones that always attempt to arrest people or to turn down unlawful acts.  Take a look through the sidequests of ME1 again.

[Bucky_McLachlan]

Mallissin wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

OP is clearly trolling.

Trolls aren't allowed to call others trolls. Got it?

Um....that would make sense if I were a  troll, but I'm not. Just because I think a good amount of people on this board are really stupid and aren't worth taking any time to give a real response to doesn't mean I'm a troll.

The main difference is this: trolls care about getting a rise out of you and creating disorder, which the OP is clearly doing while his actual opinion on the matter is changing. If I happen to think you're dumb or posted something dumb or whatever I'm just going to call you out on it because that's how I am.

I'm an ****hole not a troll. Not the same thing at all.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 01 avril 2010 - 03:56 .