587 réponses à ce sujet

[Nightwriter]

Mallissin wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I'm sorry, but my imperfect human belief really is...

If it can ask if it has a soul, it has a soul.

If only every human believed it had a soul.

What.

[Ea James Madden]

Sorry Mallissin I misread what you wrote.

[Vaenier]

I dont have a soul.

And I am very close to using my omnipotent 'life is meaningless' argument

[Mallissin]

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

OP is clearly trolling.

Trolls aren't allowed to call others trolls. Got it?

Um....that would make sense if I were a  troll, but I'm not.

Mhm. Plenty of proof to the contrary and plenty of times reported as well. Like your snide lil comment on the Wrex/Aria group.

[CmdrFenix83]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

One, you don't know the size of the Geth fleet.  There is zero intel on the Geth because anyone that goes into the Veil is killed on arrival.  If what you say was true, then there wouldn't *be* any Heretic Geth to encounter in ME2, they would have been mostly wiped out.  They weren't seeing as we encounter them many, many times.  You don't know what 'faction' these Geth are.  Especially Haestrom, we're technically behind the Veil in their territory.  How do you know what the Geth are?  Do they wear colorful insignias to distinguish between the two?  No.  You don't. 

You don't know.  Your only justification is the word of the individual that I've called into suspect.  Nothing he says can be used as evidence.  You cannot trust Legion's word implicitly.  Even using his own words, he's admitted to trying out lies to see the response.  I want one single person to give me a legitimate reason to trust Legion.  Nothing he says can be used, as it could all easily be fabricated.  Even the heretic station could have been a mostly empty vessel of VI controlled synthetics used to cement Legion's story to Shepard.

Give me a reason to trust him.  Right now all I have is a proven spy.

To you second paragraph, I trust *no one* implicitly that I don't know well.  As I said earlier, trust is earned, not given freely.

Alright, let's assume your right and that legion for all intents and purposes is actually acting like an adult. Why did Soverign not throw the full force of an race of sentient machines that could easily macifacture hundreds of ships in prepartion to attack the Citadel. O wait, he had two dozen and we know very well that there is MILLIONS of geth by quarians and the like. Things do not add up for you.


You are also assuming that he had mentality of an adult. Which he clearly does not, and no one has even addressed. Does an child have the congactive ability to know that spying is wrong when no one has taught him such?

Legion has proven he can lie.  What part about that do you not understand? 

I would also like to see your source for stating the size of the Geth space fleet.  Feel free.  We know there are billions of Geth "Programs".  Does that mean there are even thousands of combat-worthy ships?  Do you know?  Please present evidence to back up that claim.

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote..



Legion hands you the station on a platter... in my case, immediately after activating him, since I never do the IFF mission until everything else is complete. He's proven that he can lie. The other encounters is just him following his cover since you stumbled onto their operations.



If a federal agency wants to get one of their own within a terrorist organization, you'd better believe they're willing to sacrifice a building to do it if the terrorist organization is a big enough threat.

I point you to my earlier post;

Internet Kraken wrote...



Cmdr, I respect your opinion, but it's starting to seem a bit ridiculous. I would say Legion is trustworthy because he lets you decide the fate of the heretics. He puts the lives of Geth in your hands, because he believes your perspective allows you to make the right choice. He puts faith in you, so I have faith in him.



But you don't believe that. You think the entire heretic base, and subsequently every single other Geth operation you can ruin with Legion, is an elaborate hoax set up to manipulate Shepard. And this is why I think your opinion is a bit ridiculous at this point. Your suggesting that the Geth set up numerous operations inside the Terminus systems and constructed a base over 10 km long, all so Shepard could just ruin them with Legion. That would require massive amounts of resources and time. And considering how a single dialogue option would ruin the entire plan, it just seems incredibly impractical. Plus I don't see what the Geth even gain from this. The heretics worship the Reapers, so their master plan is to have Legion infiltrate Shepard's group and destroy the Collector base with him?



Again, I respect your opinion, but this is just silly.

What you're suggesting is an incredibly convoluted and ridiculous scheme that has no apparent benefit. Oh, and Citadel News Reports claim that Geth ships are heading back towards the Perseus Veil in mass if you rewrite the heretics. Is this part of their elaborate hoax as well? To abandon almost all of their operations outside of the veil if Shepard rewrites the heretics? It just seems so impractical.

[Mallissin]

Nightwriter wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

I'm sorry, but my imperfect human belief really is...

If it can ask if it has a soul, it has a soul.

If only every human believed it had a soul.

What.

Athiests, agnostics, and numerous other religions or philosophies don't believe in the concept of a soul. Why should we expect a machine reaching sentience?

Edit note: Sheesh, typos galor. I wish I were a sentient AI.

Modifié par Mallissin, 01 avril 2010 - 03:59 .

[The Elite Elite]

Gavinthelocust wrote...

Knit pick my posts, how cute.
Wether it is the collective or individual, they still saved Shepard whenever they could.

Yes, and my point is that we don't know why. All we know is that up until we encounter Legion, all the Geth we have run into have tried to kill us. Suddenly we find one that actually helps us and we're supposed to just take everything it says at its word? We have no reason to really trust everything it says. Now, I'll agree that we don't just destroy it or that we should somehow be surprised that it would spy on our crewmate that is from the very species that have tried to destroy the Geth. But we shouldn't take everything it says at its word. (Legion afterall admits that the Geth have spread a lie across the extranet just to see what the reaction would be from organics. Who's to say the Geth don't have some other purpose for infiltrating a Geth unit into Shepard's crew?)

Legion is a character to be careful with. A potentially useful ally in ending the war with the Geth and possibly bringing another ally against the Reaper threat, or a possible threat to us and our mission.

Modifié par The Elite Elite, 01 avril 2010 - 03:57 .

[Bucky_McLachlan]

Mallissin wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

Mallissin wrote...

Bucky_McLachlan wrote...

OP is clearly trolling.

Trolls aren't allowed to call others trolls. Got it?

Um....that would make sense if I were a  troll, but I'm not.

Mhm. Plenty of proof to the contrary and plenty of times reported as well. Like your snide lil comment on the Wrex/Aria group.

There's a world of difference between being an ****hole and being a troll, dumb****.

If my intollerance toward stupidity offends you that's not my problem. You could try making less dumb posts for starters.

Modifié par Bucky_McLachlan, 01 avril 2010 - 03:59 .

[Vaenier]

You can estimate their total number based on how many there were 300 years ago, and again now. though there are alot of variables to consider, you can ballbark the minimum

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

One, you don't know the size of the Geth fleet.  There is zero intel on the Geth because anyone that goes into the Veil is killed on arrival.  If what you say was true, then there wouldn't *be* any Heretic Geth to encounter in ME2, they would have been mostly wiped out.  They weren't seeing as we encounter them many, many times.  You don't know what 'faction' these Geth are.  Especially Haestrom, we're technically behind the Veil in their territory.  How do you know what the Geth are?  Do they wear colorful insignias to distinguish between the two?  No.  You don't. 

You don't know.  Your only justification is the word of the individual that I've called into suspect.  Nothing he says can be used as evidence.  You cannot trust Legion's word implicitly.  Even using his own words, he's admitted to trying out lies to see the response.  I want one single person to give me a legitimate reason to trust Legion.  Nothing he says can be used, as it could all easily be fabricated.  Even the heretic station could have been a mostly empty vessel of VI controlled synthetics used to cement Legion's story to Shepard.

Give me a reason to trust him.  Right now all I have is a proven spy.

To you second paragraph, I trust *no one* implicitly that I don't know well.  As I said earlier, trust is earned, not given freely.

Alright, let's assume your right and that legion for all intents and purposes is actually acting like an adult. Why did Soverign not throw the full force of an race of sentient machines that could easily macifacture hundreds of ships in prepartion to attack the Citadel. O wait, he had two dozen and we know very well that there is MILLIONS of geth by quarians and the like. Things do not add up for you.


You are also assuming that he had mentality of an adult. Which he clearly does not, and no one has even addressed. Does an child have the congactive ability to know that spying is wrong when no one has taught him such?

Legion has proven he can lie.  What part about that do you not understand? 

I would also like to see your source for stating the size of the Geth space fleet.  Feel free.  We know there are billions of Geth "Programs".  Does that mean there are even thousands of combat-worthy ships?  Do you know?  Please present evidence to back up that claim.

Billions yes, and even if 5% of them are platforms capable of building, why were they not put to work to buld more build more ships? your missing my point completely here. There is far too few geth ships for the entire geth race to be assaulting the citadel. Hell the humans had almost equal number of ships and the geth have 300 years on them. And the quarians by then had managed to get over 50,000 ships.

Like I said before, things do not add up.

Vaenier wrote...

You can estimate their total number based
on how many there were 300 years ago, and again now. though there are
alot of variables to consider, you can ballbark the minimum

My point exactly, does not take too much logic that machines can build more ships faster than humans and yet geth only go into battle with slightly over equal number of ships? Why did Soverign not order a race of BILLIONS of machines to build more ships? its the most logical thing to do to ensure that he won the battle for the citadel.

Modifié par Andrew_Waltfeld, 01 avril 2010 - 04:03 .

[CmdrFenix83]

Gavinthelocust wrote...
The fact that we ****ing blew up the heretic base, if he was one he would be dead. If the normal Geth were as blood hungry as you think then why have they kept to themselves for the past 300 years? The game isn't going to throw huge twists like that, you guys look way too deep into things.

Prove that there was more than a few dozen mobile platforms and prove that those platforms were actually controlled by actual Geth and not combat drone VI's.  Legion tells you where to dock, tells you how they avoided security, "finds" information in there that he brings up in a conversation, then gives you a relatively pointless choice that the only result we know if is that we have to fleet the station.  That station could have been abandoned, and Legion's 'discovery' could have been placed there intentionally.  It's all to cement his cover and make you think he's on your side.

Now, I'm not saying that it's 100% certain of this.  I'm just stating that you cannot prove otherwise.  The only information we *know* is that he is a Geth, the Geth *are* capable of lying, and that he was caught red-handed spying on a crewmember.  That's it.  Anything else beyond those three facts is speculation or assumption based on whether or not you implicitly trust the robot just because he strapped a slab of your armor to himself.  I would find it amusing if he turned out to be a traitor in ME3 for those that have him alive and on the crew.

The Geth weren't blood-hungry for 300 years because they weren't Reaper pawns.  After they became such, they waited for orders.  Now they have them.

[Mallissin]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Billions yes, and even if 5% of them are platforms capable of building, why were they not put to work to buld more build more ships? your missing my point completely here. There is far too few geth ships for the entire geth race to be assaulting the citadel. Hell the humans had almost equal number of ships and the geth have 300 years on them. And the quarians by then had managed to get over 50,000 ships.

Like I said before, things do not add up.

We have no real proof that the Geth ships seen in ME1 and later in ME2 (drop ships) are even Geth design. Both look similar to Reaper design which means either they were influence by Sovereign directly or they tried to make their ships look like their god.

Modifié par Mallissin, 01 avril 2010 - 04:05 .

[Vaenier]

Well I am tired. I am sorry to hear that your universe is without Legion. I know mine is better having him than without. Best of luck in the upcoming Geth Quarian war.

[CmdrFenix83]

Mallissin wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Geth aren't a race, they're machinery.

It could easily be argued that most machinery is organic in origin (created by life forms). Thus machinery or technology in general could be an organelle of the evolutionary process. At some point it might develop a new species as well, why does it need to be a derivative of the original organic life that created? Why can't the new species be specifically and almost completely machinery/technology?

This is an argument that is repeatedly thrown in our faces by the Reapers. They are obviously a sentient race of AIs. Do you not respect them as a race?

No, I don't.  Just as I didn't respect the machines in The Matrix or The Terminator series.  They are all technically sentient.  And just like the Geth, they have all attempted to wipe us out. 

As Shepard said to Sovereign, "You're not even alive, not really.  You're just a machine, and machines can be broken."

[Mallissin]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

As Shepard said to Sovereign, "You're not even alive, not really.  You're just a machine, and machines can be broken."

Right, and not like a human can't be broken.

May I present Jack Bucky.

Modifié par Mallissin, 01 avril 2010 - 04:09 .

[Internet Kraken]

CmdrFenix83 wrote...



-snip-

I have a question; if the entire heretic base was an elaborate hoax, then why was Legion ever on the derelict Reaper? His reason for being there was to find information about the virus the heretics intended to use against them. His encounter with Commander Shepard was completley by chance. But if there never really was a reaper virus or heretic base, why would Legion board the derelict Reaper? Why would he access the Reaper's main core and expose himself to a husk attack?

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Mallissin wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Billions yes, and even if 5% of them are platforms capable of building, why were they not put to work to buld more build more ships? your missing my point completely here. There is far too few geth ships for the entire geth race to be assaulting the citadel. Hell the humans had almost equal number of ships and the geth have 300 years on them. And the quarians by then had managed to get over 50,000 ships.

Like I said before, things do not add up.

We have no real proof that the Geth ships seen in ME1 and later in ME2 (drop ships) are even Geth design. Both look similar to Reaper design which means either they were influence by Sovereign directly or they tried to make their ships look like their god.

Still doesn't explain why there is only two dozen of them. For that fact alone I can validate legion's story. It would be an idiotic move on soverign's part not to use geth's resources to create alot more ships. Soverign's main tactic has always been overwhelming blitz.

Billions of machines with let's say 5% are platforms. How many mobile platforms are there to build more ships? Do the math, let's say 5 billion total geth.

[Gavinthelocust]

I'm going to bed because I am tired as hell, this thread damn well better be dead by tomorrow.

[CmdrFenix83]

Internet Kraken wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

Just like you in the OP, I'm still waiting for a legitimate reason to trust Legion other than his word. No one has yet to come up with anything.

Cmdr, I respect your opinion, but it's starting to seem a bit ridiculous. I would say Legion is trustworthy because he lets you decide the fate of the heretics. He puts the lives of Geth in your hands, because he believes your perspective allows you to make the right choice. He puts faith in you, so I have faith in him.

But you don't believe that. You think the entire heretic base, and subsequently every single other Geth operation you can ruin with Legion, is an elaborate hoax set up to manipulate Shepard. And this is why I think your opinion is a bit ridiculous at this point. Your suggesting that the Geth set up numerous operations inside the Terminus systems and constructed a base over 10 km long, all so Shepard could just ruin them with Legion. That would require massive amounts of resources and time. And considering how a single dialogue option would ruin the entire plan, it just seems incredibly impractical. Plus I don't see what the Geth even gain from this. The heretics worship the Reapers, so their master plan is to have Legion infiltrate Shepard's group and destroy the Collector base with him?

Again, I respect your opinion, but this is just silly.

I didn't say that.  I said it's *possible*.  There is no evidence proving otherwise beyond the testimony of the individual in question.  The base may have been abandoned by anything(could even be a lost Prothean structure.  No way of knowing), with a single floor repurposed to serve the needs of Legion's mission. 

The Collector Base, if you have Legion with you, he advocates you keeping it.  Despite his earlier comments about self-determination, he suddenly swapped his position and advocates you keeping another race's data.  Suspicious. 

My point is simply that there's nothing in game that gives him enough trust to overlook him spying on another crewmember.  Period.

[Ea James Madden]

As Shepard said to Sovereign, "You're not even alive, not really. You're just a machine, and machines can be broken."

and this is not a dialogue choice. This is written in by our beloved Bioware writers.lol.Are you gonna call them out for being racist or your own Shepard.? lol I doubt it.



On a side note-There are no other 2 races that share as many similarities as the Geth and Reapers do.

[Cascadus]

applehug wrote...

Cascadus wrote...

applehug wrote...

Vaenier wrote...

CmdrFenix83 wrote...

My main argument is that he's a Geth.

Racism.

/Thread

Whats so wrong about hating machines that shoot you on site and commmited war crimes against an entire race?

It's wrong when those machines that shoot you on sight aren't even representative of the main race's collective and it's not like, y'know, that entire race didn't try to conduct species-wide genocide over them just because they became self-aware. It's like someone walking up to your kind, and killing thousands just because they can, essentially. Watch the Second Renaissance, from the Animatrix. It draws some pretty close parallels with the quarian/geth conflict especially in the wanton genocide of machines borne from fear and hatred.
It seems you've essentially ignored everything Legion has said to you, from the fact the heretics are around 2% of the geth collective to the recording of among the many early geth which asked if it had a soul.

Whatabout the ones on Haestrom? I was just peacefully walking around then all of a sudden a Geth drop ship was shooting geth at me?

Or is that there way of negotiation?

I wasn't aware it was clarified that they were true geth. I think BioWare makes it very clear every geth you've ever shot at or shot at you weren't part of the main geth collective.
So yeah, how about you find any real evidence?

Modifié par Cascadus, 01 avril 2010 - 04:14 .

[Mallissin]

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Still doesn't explain why there is only two dozen of them. For that fact alone I can validate legion's story. It would be an idiotic move on soverign's part not to use geth's resources to create alot more ships. Soverign's main tactic has always been overwhelming blitz.

Billions of machines with let's say 5% are platforms. How many mobile platforms are there to build more ships? Do the math, let's say 5 billion total geth.

1000 geth per humanoid platform. So, 5 billion total geth is only equivolent to 5 million humans, yes?

Pretty small population.

[Andrew_Waltfeld]

Vaenier wrote...

Well I am tired. I am sorry to hear that your universe is without Legion. I know mine is better having him than without. Best of luck in the upcoming Geth Quarian war.

I Am done as well. I have present numerous cases of why the geth could be trusted, provided analogies, everything asked, and yet they keep ignoring it. Not my fault. I feel sorry for them, because they assume all robotic life is out to kill them. Thats like assuming a scorpain is out to kill out. O hey, another analogy.

I leave you with this analogy that makes perfect sense. If you can not figure out why this could be considered true, ponder on it instead of responding say "they are robots."


A man could easily kill three dozen people in excessive
force, but he meets a monk of said religion, and he is convinced by
said monk that killing is wrong. He then fully accepts it and follows it
and becomes an profitable member of society. Sure he killed three dozen
people and is still considered wrong. But is he a changed man since he doesn't go out anymore and randomly murder people?

Man = Geth
Monk = Extranet (The internet for those who dont know what the extra net is in Mass Effect)
Religion = Knowledge/perspective

[Kwom Masbag]

Mallissin wrote...

Andrew_Waltfeld wrote...

Still doesn't explain why there is only two dozen of them. For that fact alone I can validate legion's story. It would be an idiotic move on soverign's part not to use geth's resources to create alot more ships. Soverign's main tactic has always been overwhelming blitz.

Billions of machines with let's say 5% are platforms. How many mobile platforms are there to build more ships? Do the math, let's say 5 billion total geth.

1000 geth per humanoid platform. So, 5 billion total geth is only equivolent to 5 million humans, yes?

Pretty small population.

100 geth per humanoid platform.  Legion is unique.