223 réponses à ce sujet

[Urazz]

PARAGON87 wrote...

Probably he/she snapped out of his/her stasis right when the ship took off. Possibly the immobilization of the seeker swarms is temporary.

Actually, I think it happened a bit earlier, once the turrets started firing on the collector ship, the collectors probably recalled the swarms so they can get out of there quickly.  And I think the swarms needs to be in constant contact with the victim to reapply the paralysis otherwise it'll fade quickly.  It's probably why we saw them all over Lilith (the female colonist talking to Ashley/Kaiden) still even after she was paralyzed.

[smudboy]

AM50 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

AM50 wrote...

Yes. It is a plot hole. But BioWare did a fantastic job of the story. They had a few plot holes but what story doesn't. Its sometimes tough to remember every minor detail.

ME2's story is mediocre.

A story that doesn't have plot holes: a well written one.

That's quite the cynical view. I respectfully disagree. I thought ME2's story was one of the best I have played in a game, second only to KOTOR. It does have a few plotholes, but the story was so good I often overlooked them. The only one that mildly irritated me was Jacob's recruiting mission and the heat sinks. Other than that, I thought the res of the "plot holes" were quite minor. IMHO.

The main story is mediocre because it does nothing interesting.  It does so in a barely passable way: to get to the next area of violence.  There's nothing compelling about the main plot (Fight the Collectors!)  The exposition of the cause of events is enough to exist, but the numerous plot holes and plot devices hamper it (e.g. TIM said so.)  All we know: the threat is the Collectors, because they're taking humans, and they seem to be related to the Reapers.  And we have to fight them.  But we don't exactly know how, how many there are, where, what way, what exactly, when, etc.  For the entire story.

The 3 "Great Reveals" don't mean much to the plot, the intrigue and "tie in" of exposition of the plot goes nowhere, and there's barely a rising action to make one feel compelled.  (Tthe Vorcha were involved with the plague and the Collectors, but...?)

As a sequel, the story fails on so many levels.

Luckily the majority of the (non-main) story is one massive side-quest/Pokemon experience with 11 other stories in there which are interesting, compeling and personal.

Modifié par smudboy, 01 avril 2010 - 01:46 .

[Wrathra]

DarthCaine wrote...

The game does have plot holes (some were explained in cut content), but this isn't one of them
The Collectors only took half the colony

Yes, but  the Collectors took Lilith, who was practically standing next to Kaidan/Ashley. Even though she ran, she didn't get far.  The Collectors did not take Kaidan/Ashley, who was right there.  That is where the problem is.

[smudboy]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

smudboy wrote...

ME2's story is mediocre.

A story that doesn't have plot holes: a well written one.

Cute. But also wrong. Any time you deal in absolute statements (such as this one), you risk being reemed. "Well-written" is synonymous with no plot holes? Are you joking?

No.

So you're saying in all of ME1 there is not a single plot hole simply because your weak mind may have been unable to locate them? By your logic, if someone were to find a single plot hole anywhere in the game, then ME1 is not well-written either, is it? Unfortunately, when you create a universe/plot on the scale which Bioware has, the likelihood of plot holes increases. Try thinking next time before you spew crap like this.

Yes.

# of plotholes = Compounds the fact a story is poorly written.

Modifié par smudboy, 01 avril 2010 - 01:44 .

[ImperialOperative]

smudboy wrote...

# of plotholes = Compounds the fact a story is poorly written.

Plotholes = based on subjective perspective

This thread fails

[smudboy]

rhistel wrote...

smudboy wrote...

ME2's story is mediocre.

A story that doesn't have plot holes: a well written one.

 I'm not quite sure if there exists a story, without a single plot hole (or at least something that can be perceived as one, because even the fact that some part of the story is or is not a plot hole is usually a matter of opinion).

However I do think that someone already coined a formula which perfectly fits this and many other plot discussions (a.k.a. bashing the plot) here. The formula is called "suspension of disbelief". To briefly explain it: you either liked the plot enough to overlook its limitations (and/or the limitations of the medium used to convey it) or you didn't and will bash/criticize it for being inconsistent/mediocre/downright silly  and there is no argument that can convince you to think otherwise. End of story.

Here's a story with no plot holes:
"The king died, and then the queen died, out of grief."

I liked the ME2 plot.  Until it went nowhere.  Which was about after the first hour, after we've found Cyber Jesus doesn't care they're working for an evil terrorist group.

Suspension of Disbelief = Mode of Discourse - Plot Holes

[smudboy]

ImperialOperative wrote...

smudboy wrote...

# of plotholes = Compounds the fact a story is poorly written.

Plotholes = based on subjective perspective

This thread fails

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plot_hole

"While many stories have unanswered questions, unlikely events or chance occurrences, a plot hole is one that is essential to the story's outcome." -- Usually people who play ME2 and go "huh?  what?"  Over and over again.

"It is usually seen as a mark of good writing or directing when a storyteller presents a story in such a way that the audience does not notice plot holes, or willingly chooses to overlook them in favor of enjoying the story." -- Usually people who play ME2 and go 'it's a fun game.'

Modifié par smudboy, 01 avril 2010 - 02:13 .

[Aradace]

Ablaz3d wrote...

 How did Ashley or Kaiden survive on Horizon when Lilith and all those around here were taken?

You know, I used to wonder why everyone was constantly screaming "Plot Hole Plot Hole!!" every time they THINK they see an inconsitantcy in Mass Effect 2 (or BW games in general) until I played KOTOR II. (Obsidian I know but still)  And now I get it, most of those people that scream that are still paranoid that all of a sudden, mass parts of the game are going to be gone and/or youll instantly roll to credits when you kill the reaper at the end.

To that, I understand...But just because you dont get why something happened, doesnt mean that someone else doesnt and therefore doesnt neccesarily make it a "plot hole".  My favorite is still the person who was screaming "Plot Hole" just before the Hammerhead came out.  And I still laugh at anyone who screams it to begin with.  Search the forums and you'll find some damn good explanations for most of these so called "Plot Holes".

[rhistel]

smudboy wrote...

Here's a story with no plot holes:
"The king died, and then the queen died, out of grief."

I liked the ME2 plot.  Until it went nowhere.  Which was about after the first hour, after we've found Cyber Jesus doesn't care they're working for an evil terrorist group.

Suspension of Disbelief = Mode of Discourse - Plot Holes

While I think I get your point here, I still think that comparing a one sentence "premise" (or how else you wish to call it) to a plot that has to suffice for hours of storytelling is a little cruel.

And "we" didn't find out that he doesn't care, it's your opinion that he doesn't care enough, and by all means you can have that opinion. However it is just an opinion (I really don't want to start that discussion all over again).

smudboy wrote...
"It is usually seen as a mark of good writing or directing when a
storyteller presents a story in such a way that the audience does not
notice plot holes, or willingly chooses to overlook them in favor of
enjoying the story." -- Usually people who play ME2 and go 'it's a fun
game.'

http://en.wikipedia....on_of_disbelief

"According to the theory, suspension of disbelief is a quid
pro quo: the audience tacitly agrees to provisionally suspend their
judgment in exchange for the promise of entertainment."

More or less the same thing. Either you like it enough to believe it, or not.

[doodlesam123]

Well I guess the collectors just didn't have enough time to collect everyone, including Ashley/Kaiden. Seeing that shepard arrived just after the swarms invaded the colony, the collectors probably just took what they could and fled.

[ItsMjolnirTime]

Don't worry; Wizard can't pull crap like this all the time. He'll need food eventually.

[TheLostGenius]

smudboy wrote...

AM50 wrote...

smudboy wrote...

AM50 wrote...

Yes. It is a plot hole. But BioWare did a fantastic job of the story. They had a few plot holes but what story doesn't. Its sometimes tough to remember every minor detail.

ME2's story is mediocre.

A story that doesn't have plot holes: a well written one.

That's quite the cynical view. I respectfully disagree. I thought ME2's story was one of the best I have played in a game, second only to KOTOR. It does have a few plotholes, but the story was so good I often overlooked them. The only one that mildly irritated me was Jacob's recruiting mission and the heat sinks. Other than that, I thought the res of the "plot holes" were quite minor. IMHO.

The main story is mediocre because it does nothing interesting.  It does so in a barely passable way: to get to the next area of violence.  There's nothing compelling about the main plot (Fight the Collectors!)  The exposition of the cause of events is enough to exist, but the numerous plot holes and plot devices hamper it (e.g. TIM said so.)  All we know: the threat is the Collectors, because they're taking humans, and they seem to be related to the Reapers.  And we have to fight them.  But we don't exactly know how, how many there are, where, what way, what exactly, when, etc.  For the entire story.

The 3 "Great Reveals" don't mean much to the plot, the intrigue and "tie in" of exposition of the plot goes nowhere, and there's barely a rising action to make one feel compelled.  (Tthe Vorcha were involved with the plague and the Collectors, but...?)

As a sequel, the story fails on so many levels.

Luckily the majority of the (non-main) story is one massive side-quest/Pokemon experience with 11 other stories in there which are interesting, compeling and personal.

I agree. I thought the slow revelation with Saren and Sovereign was a much more interesting plot unravel. Also throughout most of the game we are given the impression that we will search for the Collector's homeworld on the other side of the Omega 4 relay, which mean't to me at least and probably many others, that we would be exploring a unique location in space and would be going around to a few solar systems or clusters to search for their homeplanet. What we get instead? Compressed cutscenes, a very easy and quick final level where you can choose to cause the deaths of several or any team mate. Wow. Just wow. Amazing game, too bad the story isn't as good as ME1.

[Maria Caliban]

Ablaz3d wrote...

 How did Ashley or Kaiden survive on Horizon when Lilith and all those around here were taken?

The power of Shepard's wub!

[Hadark]

Ablaz3d wrote...

 How did Ashley or Kaiden survive on Horizon when Lilith and all those around here were taken?

Although i feal it as a poor reason, this was answered in game by TIM and a couple other missions.  The collectors know of Shepard and crew.  A good question is how do they know?  Or, Why are they toying with Shepard?
(the same ship that has been dogging Shepard the past two years)

[BaladasDemnevanni]

smudboy wrote...

1. A story that doesn't have plot holes: a well written one.

Here's a story with no plot holes:
"The king died, and then the queen died, out of grief."

2. # of plotholes = Compounds the fact a story is poorly written.

1. And yet you fail to see why your example sucks. Your story has no "plot holes". This is true. Would you call your example a well-written plot? It barely even warrants the term plot.  Try fleshing it out. Try expanding your story to the point where it encompasses an entire alternate universe, complete with many well-developed meaningful characters and emotional depth. Keep in mind you have to take into account every tiny detail because if there is a single minor inconsistency in the universe you create, it will be criticized. Then you will have proven to me that a story can contain a detailed, logical universe with no inconsistencies. Until then, your absolute statement still fails.

2. And yet if you dig enough, you can find a plot hole with anything, which applies to the plot of any game, movie, or novel. Ashley somehow escaping the Collectors is stupid/ a plot hole. But other comments like how people seem to think working with Cerberus is either a 'plot hole' or 'retcon' are often laughable.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 01 avril 2010 - 11:40 .

[scotty062295]

Well, it seems like the Horizon mission ends where Kaidan/Ashley are frozen. Perhaps the Collectors landed and came down at a point farther away, and were just reaching them when Shepard came and they needed to redirect their attention. It's unlikely, I know, but it's entirely possible. And besides, do you think people would complain more if Ash/Kaidan were killed without you getting to talk to them again, or have a short, unpleasant convo with them?

[TheLostGenius]

I actually started a thread, (a very long one) about this topic several weeks ago. There is an enormous amount of redundancy in this forum.

[MassAffected]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

smudboy wrote...

1. A story that doesn't have plot holes: a well written one.

Here's a story with no plot holes:
"The king died, and then the queen died, out of grief."

2. # of plotholes = Compounds the fact a story is poorly written.

1. And yet you fail to see why your example sucks. Your story has no "plot holes". This is true. Would you call your example a well-written plot? It barely even warrants the term plot.  Try fleshing it out. Try expanding your story to the point where it encompasses an entire alternate universe, complete with many well-developed meaningful characters and emotional depth. Keep in mind you have to take into account every tiny detail because if there is a single minor inconsistency in the universe you create, it will be criticized. Then you will have proven to me that a story can contain a detailed, logical universe with no inconsistencies. Until then, your absolute statement still fails.

2. And yet if you dig enough, you can find a plot hole with anything, which applies to the plot of any game, movie, or novel. Ashley somehow escaping the Collectors is stupid/ a plot hole. But other comments like how people seem to think working with Cerberus is either a 'plot hole' or 'retcon' are often laughable.

Well put Baladas.

[CommanderAdriel]

A few people got left behind, so I'm assuming Ash/Kaidan got lucky and were also left behind.

[MassAffected]

A few folks have already stated this and my thinking is kind of along the same lines. The Collectors didn't have time to grab everyone and it just so happens that lucky or not Kaiden/Ashley were one of the few left behind in the scramble to gtfo of there before Shep blew their ship to dust.

[redloz]

Vaenier wrote...

Dumb Luck.

A real plothole is why the Asari Councilor hasnt Vulcun mind melded with Shep to see the visions for herself.

I can't believe that's never crossed my mind. (No pun intended)

@ OP yeah I thought Horizon was a weird swarm induced dream sequence, and Shepard was going to wake up on the Collector ship.  Alas, Kaidan had his rant then wandered off, thus the game continued. Very jarring.

[smudboy]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

smudboy wrote...

1. A story that doesn't have plot holes: a well written one.

Here's a story with no plot holes:
"The king died, and then the queen died, out of grief."

2. # of plotholes = Compounds the fact a story is poorly written.

1. And yet you fail to see why your example sucks. Your story has no "plot holes". This is true. Would you call your example a well-written plot? It barely even warrants the term plot.  Try fleshing it out. Try expanding your story to the point where it encompasses an entire alternate universe, complete with many well-developed meaningful characters and emotional depth. Keep in mind you have to take into account every tiny detail because if there is a single minor inconsistency in the universe you create, it will be criticized. Then you will have proven to me that a story can contain a detailed, logical universe with no inconsistencies. Until then, your absolute statement still fails.

2. And yet if you dig enough, you can find a plot hole with anything, which applies to the plot of any game, movie, or novel. Ashley somehow escaping the Collectors is stupid/ a plot hole. But other comments like how people seem to think working with Cerberus is either a 'plot hole' or 'retcon' are often laughable.

science.jrank.org/pages/10374/Narrative-E-M-FORSTER-S-KING-QUEEN-NARRATIVE-ACROSS-DISCIPLINES.html

[TheUnusualSuspect]

When we see the opening cut-scene, the layout of the buildings suggest that this takes place right about where we pick up the collector particle beam, just before we meet Harbinger for the first time. Watch it again and pay attention to the buildings, and you'll see what I mean. When we're walking through that area, there are colonists still in stasis everywhere.



What doesn't make sense though is why we don't see Kaidan/Ashley as we're walking through that same area. I can only assume that they lost balance and fell into one of those crates that are able to survive orbital re-entry, ala the Normandy Alchera crash site, and one of the collectors forgot to punch the crate open.



I do agree on the whole plot-hole/suspension of disbelief aspect. I just completed an ME1 playthrough, and while there are a few gotchas, on the whole the story presents itself well enough that suspension of disbelief is maintained. It's not perfect, but it's good enough.



When playing ME2 though, you spend quite a number of moments saying "wtf?" to yourself over fairly glaringly obvious in-game-canon errors and/or logic flaws, such that ME2 on the whole generally fails to carry itself in a believable fashion, even when viewed from the perspective of the ME universe. That is just sloppy writing.



ME2's a good game, but ME1 was the better written story.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

smudboy wrote...

science.jrank.org/pages/10374/Narrative-E-M-FORSTER-S-KING-QUEEN-NARRATIVE-ACROSS-DISCIPLINES.html

Ah yes, your old "tactic" of including a link when you are unable to argue on your own merits. I find it hilarious that you seem to think the link itself entails a "counter-argument". I'd have more respect for you if you would actually pull out extracts which were relevant to the discussion.

What you have failed to do is

1) Provide me with a detailed universe with no plot inconsistencies.
2) Explain to me why the plot example you mentioned is "well-written" or even entertaining. I await a rebuttal next time.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 02 avril 2010 - 12:04 .

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Oh, and there are hardsuit mission recorders. We see them in action at the very start of ME1, when we're watching the hardsuit camera recordings from a PoV perspective of the soldiers on Eden Prime when the Sovereign/Geth attacks take place.



For the remainder of ME1, the fact that such things exist isn't challenged.



ME2 attempts to retcon that there's absolutely no recorded evidence of anything that took place in ME1, having ever occurred.



Oh, and as for the Asari mind-meld thing, the councillor wouldn't just be viewing Shep's visions, she'd also be viewing Shep's mission history, including the Vigil VI conversation (even if we swallowed that for some stupid reason everyone's hardsuit mission recorders were turned off for the entirety of ME1).