The game does have plot holes (some were explained in cut content), but this isn't one of them The Collectors only took half the colony
Yes, but the Collectors took Lilith, who was practically standing next to Kaidan/Ashley. Even though she ran, she didn't get far. The Collectors did not take Kaidan/Ashley, who was right there. That is where the problem is.
Exactly. I brought this up a while back in response to the 'they only took half the colony' On the crazy Quarians film the collectors are calmly carting lilith off and kaiden or ash was 20 feet away when lilith fell.
1. A story that doesn'thave plot holes: a well written one.
Here's a story with no plot holes: "The king died, and then the queen died, out of grief."
2. # of plotholes = Compounds the fact a story is poorly written.
1. And yet you fail to see why your example sucks. Your story has no "plot holes". This is true. Would you call your example a well-written plot? It barely even warrants the term plot. Try fleshing it out. Try expanding your story to the point where it encompasses an entire alternate universe, complete with many well-developed meaningful characters and emotional depth. Keep in mind you have to take into account every tiny detail because if there is a single minor inconsistency in the universe you create, it will be criticized. Then you will have proven to me that a story can contain a detailed, logical universe with no inconsistencies. Until then, your absolute statement still fails.
2. And yet if you dig enough, you can find a plot hole with anything, which applies to the plot of any game, movie, or novel. Ashley somehow escaping the Collectors is stupid/ a plot hole. But other comments like how people seem to think working with Cerberus is either a 'plot hole' or 'retcon' are often laughable.
Oh, how I expected this would happen, I still think this is a cruel comparison, and the linked text itself is somewhat of an overkill for a forum discussion about a plot of a space opera cumputer game...
Oh, and there are hardsuit mission recorders. We see them in action at the very start of ME1, when we're watching the hardsuit camera recordings from a PoV perspective of the soldiers on Eden Prime when the Sovereign/Geth attacks take place.
For the remainder of ME1, the fact that such things exist isn't challenged.
ME2 attempts to retcon that there's absolutely no recorded evidence of anything that took place in ME1, having ever occurred.
I believe we've discussed this. I'm still waiting for an explanation why Shepard didn't upload any of these video recordings directly to the Council after he encountered Sovereign on Virmire, especially since it's possible to have an entire mission/planet left to explore following. That would have been the prudent time to do so, let alone once they chose to ground his vessel. So if it is a plot hole, it is one that is carried over from the first game.
But this is exactly what I mean about people taking the term "plot holes" too far. Playing through ME1/2, were you honestly reminding yourself in the back of your head about this video recording? It's a minor detail in a minor codex entry that was over-looked which most gamers completely forget about. Plot hole? Yes. Immersion-breaking? Hardly.
I believe we've discussed this. I'm still waiting for an explanation why Shepard didn't upload any of these video recordings directly to the Council after he encountered Sovereign on Virmire, especially since it's possible to have an entire mission/planet left to explore following. That would have been the prudent time to do so, let alone once they chose to ground his vessel. So if it is a plot hole, it is one that is carried over from the first game.
As I said, I'd just finished an ME1 playthrough. At that time the Council seemed to believe Shepard's story, but they were questioning the need for Shepard to go charging off through the Terminus systems, risking it being an act of war. They mobilised forces to guard the Mass Relay entry points to the Citadel.
What was in doubt was the importance of the Conduit. At that point in time, no one really knew what it was or what it did, only that Saren was looking for it. From the Council's perspective, the Citadel was guarded and safe, and Shepard didn't need to do anything else. They also, well the Asari and the Salarian at least, were prepared to accept that Reapers existed at this point in time, although they stated that it was a rather large story to swallow.
So no, I thought that ME1 actually did pull off a plausible plot leap to keep Shepard grounded in ME1 to prevent a Terminus systems incident when they were anticipating an attack by Saren/Sovereign, and this reasoning and concern was valid even with the assumed existence of hard-suit recordings and the convo with Sovereign from Virmire.
Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 02 avril 2010 - 12:24 .
I think the Council did know about Shepard's encounter with Sovereign on Virmire, but they treated is as another one of Saren's tricks. The Council does not question the fact that Shepard believes that Reapers exist and are a threat to the entire galaxy, they just don't want to publicly acknowledge this and they definitely don't want the general public to know about the Reapers. The Council wants to believe that with Sovereign's death there is no longer an immediate threat to concern themselves with.
The Council wants to believe that with Sovereign's death there is no longer an immediate threat to concern themselves with.
This is where their reaction in ME2 doesn't make any sense though, well perhaps I'll scale that back to simply being their denial of the existence of Reapers to Shepard in person. Publically I can understand a stance of denial, but not when talking to Shepard personally. This is backed up by a quote by the Asari councillor from ME1, which I'll paraphrase as roughly being that the Council at times cannot be seen to publically acknowledge threats to galactic stability for purposes of maintaining stability and not inducing panic, and she goes on to explain that this is exactly why they created the Spectres, to deal with such threats that the Council cannot publically acknowledge. Spectres are given the freedom to deal with such threats, without the burden of paperwork and oversight that would both threaten mission integrity and/or come back to bike the Council in the butt by implicating that they were aware of such threats.
There will be hardsuit recordings of the conversation with the Vigil VI on Ilos. That the Reapers exist can never be denied by the Council when speaking to Shepard personally, and this is the most jarring plot hole from ME2. I can understand all the public back-sliding from the issue, the public down-grading of the threat of even the Geth and Saren, and downplaying it. That all makes sense. What makes no sense is the denial of the Reapers to Shepard personally, especially even after they re-instate his Spectre status (despite believing that he's aligned with Cerberus, an avowed enemy of the Council, and is a capital offense [wtf?. Jacob and Miranda are standing right there with Cerberus logos proudly on display guys...]).
Overall, the entire conversation with the Council in ME2 was one of the most ill thought out, poorly written, pieces of crap. Whichever way it gets spun, they contradict themselves and look like idiots. I can see now why the canon story removes the meeting with the Council, but that's poor comfort to Paragon ME1 save-game importers which has ME2 retcon the council as jabbering self-contradicting morons.
Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 02 avril 2010 - 01:02 .
TheUnusualSuspect wrote... Overall, the entire conversation with the Council in ME2 was one of the most ill thought out, poorly written, pieces of crap. Whichever way it gets spun, they contradict themselves and look like idiots. I can see now why the canon story removes the meeting with the Council, but that's poor comfort to Paragon ME1 save-game importers which has ME2 retcon the council as jabbering self-contradicting morons.
I didn't get such a strong impression of contradiction during that scene. For me the Council was always trying to behave like it was a public audition, even when talking to Shepard in private, so their reaction didn't stun me that much. I got the feeling that the way this whole scene plays out was meant to show you the extent to which the Reaper threat is denied by the galaxy as a whole and to make you angry about it (and I see the latter it managed to achieve ). I won't defend this plot point to the death, though. It could've been written a little better, but didn't bother me that much to be honest (I even enjoyed meeting with the Council during my first playthrough).
PS. Weren't we discussing something about seeker swarms and Kaidan/Ashley here...nevermind...
Well if Kaidan or Ashley was your favorite party member you'd be pretty mad if they just died without you having any control. Can you imagine if Tali died!? There would be a riot all over the world.
Oh, and there are hardsuit mission recorders. We see them in action at the very start of ME1, when we're watching the hardsuit camera recordings from a PoV perspective of the soldiers on Eden Prime when the Sovereign/Geth attacks take place.
For the remainder of ME1, the fact that such things exist isn't challenged.
ME2 attempts to retcon that there's absolutely no recorded evidence of anything that took place in ME1, having ever occurred.
Is it definately a recorder in the hardsuit, or is it some kind of camera placed somewhere else, in the hand for example.
It's been awhile since I played ME1, but if it's never actually explained then there is no plot-hole.
Is it definately a recorder in the hardsuit, or is it some kind of camera placed somewhere else, in the hand for example.
It's been awhile since I played ME1, but if it's never actually explained then there is no plot-hole.
Judging by the Eden Prime on-soldier footage, it would be located in the helmet, looking forwards, at about eye level. We see true point-of-view footage from a soldier looking at his colleagues, then looking at Sovereign, and so on.
ME1 codex explains that there's an on-board hardsuit computer, and even in ME2, EDI makes reference to it just after Shep boards the Collector Ship.
Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 02 avril 2010 - 02:23 .
TheUnusualSuspect wrote... Overall, the entire conversation with the Council in ME2 was one of the most ill thought out, poorly written, pieces of crap. Whichever way it gets spun, they contradict themselves and look like idiots. I can see now why the canon story removes the meeting with the Council, but that's poor comfort to Paragon ME1 save-game importers which has ME2 retcon the council as jabbering self-contradicting morons.
I didn't get such a strong impression of contradiction during that scene. For me the Council was always trying to behave like it was a public audition, even when talking to Shepard in private, so their reaction didn't stun me that much. I got the feeling that the way this whole scene plays out was meant to show you the extent to which the Reaper threat is denied by the galaxy as a whole and to make you angry about it (and I see the latter it managed to achieve ). I won't defend this plot point to the death, though. It could've been written a little better, but didn't bother me that much to be honest (I even enjoyed meeting with the Council during my first playthrough).
What I meant was, even aside from denying the existence of the Reapers to the one man that's provided them all the evidence, which ME2 retcons to not exist, and Shep being the one man who's determined to investigate this threat to galactic stability, they then go on to reinstate his Spectre status after declaring that any involvement with Cerberus is a capital offence (ie. death sentence), and send Shep out to trot about the galaxy in a Cerberus logo'd ship, with Spectre status support by the Council. If Cerberus really were such a threat, then the Cerberus logo'd Miranda and Jacob wouldn't have even gotten past the Normandy docking station before being arrested and charge with treason. ie. the council contradicts itself on this aspect, and appears stupid as a result.
PS. Weren't we discussing something about seeker swarms and Kaidan/Ashley here...nevermind...
Agreed, sorry for derailing with my pet hobby horse.
Modifié par TheUnusualSuspect, 02 avril 2010 - 02:29 .
What I meant was, even aside from denying the existence of the Reapers to the one man that's provided them all the evidence, which ME2 retcons to not exist, and Shep being the one man who's determined to investigate this threat to galactic stability, they then go on to reinstate his Spectre status after declaring that any involvement with Cerberus is a capital offence (ie. death sentence), and send Shep out to trot about the galaxy in a Cerberus logo'd ship, with Spectre status support by the Council. If Cerberus really were such a threat, then the Cerberus logo'd Miranda and Jacob wouldn't have even gotten past the Normandy docking station before being arrested and charge with treason. ie. the council contradicts itself on this aspect, and appears stupid as a result.
True that the official status of Cerberus in Citadel Space is a little confusing and you may have a point here.
TheUnusualSuspect wrote...
Agreed, sorry for derailing with my pet hobby horse.
No need to be sorry, this thread was derailed much earlier and not by you
As I said, I'd just finished an ME1 playthrough. At that time the Council seemed to believe Shepard's story, but they were questioning the need for Shepard to go charging off through the Terminus systems, risking it being an act of war. They mobilised forces to guard the Mass Relay entry points to the Citadel.
And that's fine-for the end of the game. After Virmire, the Council still thinks your crazy- that Saren is just a rogue Spectre misleading you. When you finally complete Virmire, it's actually possible to have another planet to explore (possibly Feros or Noveria). If you're calling the details of the ME2 a plot hole based on camera recordings, I'm asking you why did Shepard never send the Reaper data to the Council after it was recovered? This is a crucial element that you are over-looking and seems pretty critical to the mission parameters.
What was in doubt was the importance of the Conduit. At that point in time, no one really knew what it was or what it did, only that Saren was looking for it. From the Council's perspective, the Citadel was guarded and safe, and Shepard didn't need to do anything else. They also, well the Asari and the Salarian at least, were prepared to accept that Reapers existed at this point in time, although they stated that it was a rather large story to swallow.
No, what was in doubt was not only the conduit, but the existence of the Reapers. I have to say that you're wrong on this point. Watch this clip.
They don't just say that it's "a large story to swallow". They comment on the fact that you're the only one who believes they exist. So explain to me why Shepard did not link them the recording of Sovereign. That meeting would have been the perfect time to do so. They even imply that if the Reaper threat were real, they'd be willing to invade the Terminus Systems.
1. So no, I thought that ME1 actually did pull off a plausible plot leap to keep Shepard grounded in ME1 to prevent a Terminus systems incident when they were anticipating an attack by Saren/Sovereign,
2. and this reasoning and concern was valid even with the assumed existence of hard-suit recordings and the convo with Sovereign from Virmire.
1. Unfortunately I think differently. If you look at the clip I sent you, Shepard agrees that the Council doesn't need to sanction a full scale invasion into the Terminus Systems, which is fine since they are trying to avoid a full scale war. They could get by just sending the Normandy in to investigate, which has highly advanced stealth systems and is easily capable of getting through the Terminus Sytems un-noticed. Instead they refused because Shepard "detinated a nuke" on Virmire. That sounds like a very thin plot device in my opinion.
2. Shepard claims that a race of millenia old machines inhabiting dark space systematically wipes out all organic life every 50k years, leaving almost no traces of their existence and are also responsible for the creation of the Citadel and the mass relays. Furthermore, he is the only one who believes in their existence and this a result of visions and nightmares from the Prothean beacon and you want to tell me that it's "valid" that for whatever reason he would not want to (at any point) show them proof that this threat exists? Even by sending the video recording to the Council while in transit? That, my friend, is practically the definition of a plot hole.
You have still failed to show where they consider the possible existence of the Reapers. So no, as of now it's not a plausible plot leap in my opinion.
Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 02 avril 2010 - 01:55 .
1. Unfortunately I think differently. If you look at the clip I sent you, Shepard agrees that the Council doesn't need to sanction a full scale invasion into the Terminus Systems, which is fine since they are trying to avoid a full scale war. They could get by just sending the Normandy in to investigate, which has highly advanced stealth systems and is easily capable of getting through the Terminus Sytems un-noticed. Instead they refused because Shepard "detinated a nuke" on Virmire. That sounds like a very thin plot device in my opinion.
2. Shepard claims that a race of millenia old machines inhabiting dark space systematically wipes out all organic life every 50k years, leaving almost no traces of their existence and are also responsible for the creation of the Citadel and the mass relays. Furthermore, he is the only one who believes in their existence and this a result of visions and nightmares from the Prothean beacon and you want to tell me that it's "valid" that for whatever reason he would not want to (at any point) show them proof that this threat exists? Even by sending the video recording to the Council while in transit? That, my friend, is practically the definition of a plot hole.
You have still failed to show where they consider the possible existence of the Reapers. So no, as of now it's not a plausible plot leap in my opinion.
1. I don't think it's only about the nuke. Whereever Shepard went something spectacular happened. Destruction of the research facility on Noveria, death of Thorian and Exo-Geni scandal on Feros, and then finally the nuke on Virmire. Of course none of that was solely Shepard's fault but facts remain facts and I think that's what Council means by "your style served you well".
2. If we really can be certain that the proof existed. The whole helm recordings thing is blurry at best, it's just mentioned once in the main story and then again in a codex entry. At no point is it expalined how exactly that works, how much material is it able to record etc. Besides we don't even know what is contained in those reports Shepards sends the Council after each mission, maybe they contain the recordings (if they exist at all).
PS. Are we now dissecting ME1's plot to defend the plot of ME2, or did I miss something?
1. I don't think it's only about the nuke. Whereever Shepard went something spectacular happened. Destruction of the research facility on Noveria, death of Thorian and Exo-Geni scandal on Feros, and then finally the nuke on Virmire. Of course none of that was solely Shepard's fault but facts remain facts and I think that's what Council means by "your style served you well".
2. If we really can be certain that the proof existed. The whole helm recordings thing is blurry at best, it's just mentioned once in the main story and then again in a codex entry. At no point is it expalined how exactly that works, how much material is it able to record etc. Besides we don't even know what is contained in those reports Shepards sends the Council after each mission, maybe they contain the recordings (if they exist at all).
3. PS. Are we now dissecting ME1's plot to defend the plot of ME2, or did I miss something?
1. Noveria I can understand your point about. In the case of Feros, I don't recall there being any particular explosions or anything similar that would warrant being considered 'spectacular'. But I guess my point is that the Council is being very hypocritical in this regard. They've been responsible for actions such as genocide that I don't view a nuclear explosion as a huge issue, especially since it was the Salarians' idea.
Even if Shepard were responsible for some sort of catastrophe, it could be easily blamed on any number of anonymous causes in the Terminus Systems. Given this and how we know Saren is planning something big, it didn't make sense to me that the Council was only willing to 'block off relays'.
2. This is actually a really good point I hadn't even though about. Everything I said hinges on the idea that the evidence from the cameras are perfectly clear. This is not always the case on the field with explosions and what not. Not to mention that VIs can be made to take any form or personality, hence why I'm also unwilling to think the Council would accept anything short of first-hand experience as evidence.
3. Ah yeah, sorry about that. I've actually debated this with Unusual Suspect before about ME1's plot holes in comparison to ME2, so without actually mentioning it I kinda assumed people knew where we were going with it. Sorry again. =p
The reason why I keep mentioning ME1 is because of the example we are using (the cameras), among others. Some are assuming that this is a plot hole exclusive to ME2. By showing that ME1 is guilty of the same mistake, I'm trying to show that either they should be willing to forgive ME2 in this regard (since it's a minor detail) or have to accept that ME1 must be taken down a peg as well. It's not fair to call the sequel out on an inconsistency which is continued from the first game and say ME 2 is full of plot holes.
Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 02 avril 2010 - 04:50 .
The game does have plot holes (some were explained in cut content), but this isn't one of them The Collectors only took half the colony
The Colony is roughly taken in two halves, one half was completely stripped clean and the other was still being taken (but Shepard arrived in time to stop the Collectors).
Lilith was taken, this would mean the Collectors went up to her - picked her up and put her in the pod before dragging her off to the Collector Ship. Kaidan / Ashley were frozen not very far off from Lilith. This places them either on the fringe of the Collector's cleaned up area or in the area itself.
Now you need to look at a few things: - Swarms were still in the area, it's why you got Mordin in the first place - to make sure you weren't a victim of their freezing agent. Ashley / Kaidan couldn't have unfrozen and simply hid. - Ashley / Kaidan were frozen in the part of the colony that was picked clean. - The Collectors are not sloppy, they picked clean entire colonys. They wouldn't simply miss a human who unfroze.
This means there's no reason why they should be standing infront of you at the end of Horizon, unless it's simply because it's written in the plot.
Modifié par Dave of Canada, 02 avril 2010 - 05:07 .
I just want to know where the mercs get their heat clips from, and why can't I buy some from their supplier. And where did my party member get those clothes which is just as protective as my armor. And why did Thane lose his ability to go through vents after he joined me.
I agree with all of these. How does Thane get into secure buildings, as a delivery guy? No, he has a perfect memory and has been hacking for years, remembering it all. And he'd usually use vents. Plus he had to maintain his own ship and AVOID detection. But, hey, Tali works with scrap and broken Geth, so she must have more knowledge. It's also funny that the Quarian team after Veetor got smashed by security mechs.
And why would Mordin make new weapons before fixing heavy weapon ammo shortages, especially the Cain? They couldn't use the Normandy if it had fuel capacity of 100 instead of 1000 and had to scavenge for it.
And what does Aria actually DO in the story? Okay, she's Bill the Butcher for Omega. But really it's finishing a datapad quest and the Patriarch. Big deal! I can't make hits for her, can't disrupt her shipments, can't turn in the Salarian's info, can't challenge her with Garrus/Grunt and Samara or something, etc. Is she really tougher than Benezia and Saren?
TheUnusualSuspect wrote... Overall, the entire conversation with the Council in ME2 was one of the most ill thought out, poorly written, pieces of crap. Whichever way it gets spun, they contradict themselves and look like idiots. I can see now why the canon story removes the meeting with the Council, but that's poor comfort to Paragon ME1 save-game importers which has ME2 retcon the council as jabbering self-contradicting morons.
Why is every crew member on the shuttle when the collectors attack? Really? And they are fighting the collectors, but can't take back the ship without a suspended disbelief Joker limpfest? If we're going that way, the game should have ended with Joker being taken and the shuttle being pursued.
How come they can hold the line on the collector base but can't leave six squadmates to hold their own ship?
Oh, not really a plot hole, but why did Miranda choose the engine room? It has windows on every level, especially for Grunt. Or does she just want jealousy over her perfect body?
Why is every crew member on the shuttle when the collectors attack? Really? And they are fighting the collectors, but can't take back the ship without a suspended disbelief Joker limpfest? If we're going that way, the game should have ended with Joker being taken and the shuttle being pursued.
Well, if they actually did the whole-crew kidnap scene and only your squad mates and Joker remained - something would've been off, people would argue it would've been a bigger hole. Yet, if they were taken, gameplay wise it would've sucked because you had no more squad mates than the two you took for the rest of the missions until the suicide mission itself.
I just want to know where the mercs get their heat clips from, and why can't I buy some from their supplier. And where did my party member get those clothes which is just as protective as my armor. And why did Thane lose his ability to go through vents after he joined me.
I agree with all of these. How does Thane get into secure buildings, as a delivery guy? No, he has a perfect memory and has been hacking for years, remembering it all. And he'd usually use vents. Plus he had to maintain his own ship and AVOID detection. But, hey, Tali works with scrap and broken Geth, so she must have more knowledge. It's also funny that the Quarian team after Veetor got smashed by security mechs.
And why would Mordin make new weapons before fixing heavy weapon ammo shortages, especially the Cain? They couldn't use the Normandy if it had fuel capacity of 100 instead of 1000 and had to scavenge for it.
And what does Aria actually DO in the story? Okay, she's Bill the Butcher for Omega. But really it's finishing a datapad quest and the Patriarch. Big deal! I can't make hits for her, can't disrupt her shipments, can't turn in the Salarian's info, can't challenge her with Garrus/Grunt and Samara or something, etc. Is she really tougher than Benezia and Saren?
You do know that ME is a computer game, don't you?
Most of the things you mentioned are more connected with gameplay mechanics than the story itself (are you going to point out that characters can't jump or go anywhere they please next time?) I don't see anything funny in the fact that a quarian team was wasted by a heavy mech, especially that some of them were quite reckless in their behaviour (probably not the most skilled soldiers in the Flotilla). What's the point of antagonizing Aria, anyway? Her role in the story is that she is an NPC providing info and quests (you know like in an crpg).
Dave of Canada wrote...
This means there's no reason why they should be standing infront of you at the end of Horizon, unless it's simply because it's written in the plot.
As many of ppl before have written there exists a number of possible reasons for that, so this cannot be treated as a plot hole. You may just have trouble buying Ash/Kaidan's miraculous "escape", and there's nothing wrong with that. It's your choice/opinion.
singe_101 wrote...
Why is every crew member on the shuttle when the collectors attack? Really? And they are fighting the collectors, but can't take back the ship without a suspended disbelief Joker limpfest? If we're going that way, the game should have ended with Joker being taken and the shuttle being pursued.
It's purely a plot device used to make things more dramatic, and the fight against the collectors more personal. The fact that Shepard travels with only two companions is more of a gameplay than a plot thing, so I don't have any trouble with the fact that everyone boarded this shuttle, the Collectors took Normandy by suprise and that's why things turned out as they did. That was the whole point of the Collectors' attack.
As I said, I'd just finished an ME1 playthrough. At that time the Council seemed to believe Shepard's story, but they were questioning the need for Shepard to go charging off through the Terminus systems, risking it being an act of war. They mobilised forces to guard the Mass Relay entry points to the Citadel.
And that's fine-for the end of the game. After Virmire, the Council still thinks your crazy- that Saren is just a rogue Spectre misleading you. When you finally complete Virmire, it's actually possible to have another planet to explore (possibly Feros or Noveria). If you're calling the details of the ME2 a plot hole based on camera recordings, I'm asking you why did Shepard never send the Reaper data to the Council after it was recovered? This is a crucial element that you are over-looking and seems pretty critical to the mission parameters.
Sorry, which "Reaper Data" was it that you were expecting Shepard to upload to the Council after Virmire?
Retour en haut
Oh, how I expected this would happen, I still think this is a cruel comparison, and the linked text itself is somewhat of an overkill for a forum discussion about a plot of a space opera cumputer game...
). I won't defend this plot point to the death, though. It could've been written a little better, but didn't bother me that much to be honest (I even enjoyed meeting with the Council during my first playthrough). 
