223 réponses à ce sujet

[jklinders]

Because the collector were able read their thoughts and knew how crappy they were going to treat Shepard. Since they were being driven off by the guns anyway they decided to bet on whether they could hear Shepard's epic facepalm when they tore a strip off his back for being with Cerberus.

[Loki330]

Dreykov wrote...

Nightwriter wrote...

Chuck_Vu wrote...

I just want to know where the mercs get their heat clips from, and why can't I buy some from their supplier. And where did my party member get those clothes which is just as protective as my armor. And why did Thane lose his ability to go through vents after he joined me. Or why I couldn't go through vents to begin with. How come can Jack biotic punch when I can't. What about Samara's biotic feather fall??? And if I have to feed my fish, why don't I have to feed the space hamster?

Epic.

You forgot, why must I enter the Flotilla in full body suit when Miranda only needs a holographic mask thingy over her face?? Surely that violates contamination protocol?

Design fail on Bioware's part.

The one that stuck in my mind was the collector ship with Jack and Zaeed

Shepard (for it is he/she): Guys?
Jack+Zaeed (for it is her and him): Yes?
Shep: Those space masks you're wearing.
J+Z: What about them?
Shep: Why aren't they covering the eyes?

[Chuck_Vu]

It's not about gameplay. It's about story continuity, and the logic (within the bounds of that story, be it magic, the force, or dark matter) that follows. If you want me to suspend my disbelief then don't ruin it with plot holes. It's the "in world" logic, that we are puzzling over. Not gameplay reasoning. A great story can be ruined by a lack of continuity and glaring plot holes.



And for godsakes never render anything in a cutscene that I can't replicate in game play, because I, and others, will ask why can't we do that. Example: if my character runs up a wall and does a triple backflip shooting in twenty different directions and hitting twenty different targets in a cut scene, then I want to do that in game. And no, this did not happen in ME 1 or 2, it's just to illustrate my point. But we've seen this trope in many other games haven't we???



New Rule: Gameplay is not an exceptable answer/excuse for plot holes.

[TheUnusualSuspect]

Chuck_Vu wrote...

 And no, this did not happen in ME 1 or 2, it's just to illustrate my point. But we've seen this trope in many other games haven't we???

Done the Jack recruitment mission?  Mega-biotic insta-take-down of 3 YMIR mechs, but when you get her onto your team, she'd be pretty close to the weakest of any team-mate against YMIR's in actual gameplay.

[JazmanX]

Cutscene power FTL

[Sina84]

They explain everything else perfectly, like how Collector made scions got aboard the 37 million year old derelict Reaper that only had Husk spikes. Oh wait...

[Lucky Thirteen]

omg I have an idea.



Maybe it's not really Kaiden/Ashley! MAYBE IT'S A CLONE! Or some kind of replacement to fool Shepard.



Nahhhh......

[rhistel]

Chuck_Vu wrote...

It's not about gameplay. It's about story continuity, and the logic (within the bounds of that story, be it magic, the force, or dark matter) that follows. If you want me to suspend my disbelief then don't ruin it with plot holes. It's the "in world" logic, that we are puzzling over. Not gameplay reasoning. A great story can be ruined by a lack of continuity and glaring plot holes.

And for godsakes never render anything in a cutscene that I can't replicate in game play, because I, and others, will ask why can't we do that. Example: if my character runs up a wall and does a triple backflip shooting in twenty different directions and hitting twenty different targets in a cut scene, then I want to do that in game. And no, this did not happen in ME 1 or 2, it's just to illustrate my point. But we've seen this trope in many other games haven't we???

New Rule: Gameplay is not an exceptable answer/excuse for plot holes.

But that's what cutscenes are for...the whole purpose of a cutscene is to present something that would not be entirely possible to show in the boundaries of standard gameplay mechanics (quick time events are  different story) or the graphics engine (then we are usually dealing with pregenerated cg cutscenes). In rpgs and rpg-action hybrids (such as ME) there are usually far more limitations on what the characters can do, hence cutscenes are especially useful.
The whole idea of cutscenes mainly originated and evolved in japanese games (you haven't played a lot of those, have you?). So if you are used to more "western" style of game design you can have a problem with very cinematic cutscenes.

Oh, and speaking of japanese games, I think way back when Planescape: Torment was released, a trend of combining western and japanese crpg's elements began. A trend later developed in BG2 and the KotOR series. Especially in KotOR, which introduced the three character party (a jrpg idea). A trend now continued in ME. And finally a trend that I think is responsible for the infamous oxygen masks. It is the fixed chara appearance, which theoretically stresses their style and personality. It was already done in the above mentioned Planescape, and back then it had been criticized as well. Now they've repeated that mistake in ME2, while it doesn't bother me that much, I agree that it wasn't the smartest choice.

And thermal clips are a pure change in gameplay mechanics, done mainly because of fan complains. And because BW had already established the infinite ammo theory, they had to think of something to at least try to justify that change. Of course there was no way of coming up with a that solid of an explanation, but I guess they thought that gamers won't make such a fuss about it. They obviously underestimated the internet community...

PS. On a side note the cutscene issue you've mentioned also applies to ME1, so if you were so angry about the first game why bother with the second?

Modifié par rhistel, 03 avril 2010 - 12:30 .

[rhistel]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

Done the Jack recruitment mission?  Mega-biotic insta-take-down of 3 YMIR mechs, but when you get her onto your team, she'd be pretty close to the weakest of any team-mate against YMIR's in actual gameplay.

Saren and his geth/krogan infiltration team manage to get to the central point of the citadel, eliminating all opposition (even attacking and disabling the Citadel traffic control center), yet are stopped by Shepard and his two companions (I know it is a supprise attack and the conduit relay is close to Citadel Tower but don't exaggerate this).
I think it's better to seperate the story and gameplay mechanics, at least a little bit.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

TheUnusualSuspect wrote...

As I said, I'd just finished an ME1 playthrough.  At that time the Council seemed to believe Shepard's story, but they were questioning the need for Shepard to go charging off through the Terminus systems, risking it being an act of war.  They mobilised forces to guard the Mass Relay entry points to the Citadel.

And that's fine-for the end of the game. After Virmire, the Council still thinks your crazy- that Saren is just a rogue Spectre misleading you. When you finally complete Virmire, it's actually possible to have another planet to explore (possibly Feros or Noveria). If you're calling the details of the ME2 a plot hole based on camera recordings, I'm asking you why did Shepard never send the Reaper data to the Council after it was recovered? This is a crucial element that you are over-looking and seems pretty critical to the mission parameters.

Sorry, which "Reaper Data" was it that you were expecting Shepard to upload to the Council after Virmire?

All the Reaper data which Shepard and his team would have recorded after his conversation with Sovereign. Your point on why ME2 lacks consistency is that these "combat cameras" are entirely ignored. So I'm asking you why did Shepard not send the Council his video conversation with Sovereign immediately after it occurred? It would have been perfect given how they had refused to believe him.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Sina84 wrote...

They explain everything else perfectly, like how Collector made scions got aboard the 37 million year old derelict Reaper that only had Husk spikes. Oh wait...

Someone else mentioned this to me, which I found curious. When I asked him for evidence, all I got in response was a link to a dev video where they discussed the idea. Perhaps I'm wrong, but where in game is it actually specified that the scions/abominations are necessarily Collector made?

Chuck_Vu wrote...
And for godsakes never render anything in a cutscene that I can't replicate in game play, because I, and others, will ask why can't we do that. Example: if my character runs up a wall and does a triple backflip shooting in twenty different directions and hitting twenty different targets in a cut scene, then I want to do that in game. And no, this did not happen in ME 1 or 2, it's just to illustrate my point. But we've seen this trope in many other games haven't we???


New Rule: Gameplay is not an exceptable answer/excuse for plot holes.

But sometimes the purpose of a Cut Scene is to achieve what is not possible within the bounds of standard gameplay. ME series does this as well (moreso in ME2). Ashley leaping in the air and firing on a Geth behind her should break disbelief then. As should Jack taking out an army of Mechs/Prison guards using her hands and biotic abilities. It's going to be impossible to make gameplay = cinematics perfectly. The fact that they serve two entirely different functions within a video game demonstrates this.

[rhistel]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Someone else mentioned this to me, which I found curious. When I asked him for evidence, all I got in response was a link to a dev video where they discussed the idea. Perhaps I'm wrong, but where in game is it actually specified that the scions/abominations are necessarily Collector made?

Aren't abominations just upgraded husks? Scions also seem to use the same technology as husks, so I would say that all three are Reaper technology (which Collectors use, because they are themselves products of Reaper technology). So I don't find it odd that those creatures are aboard a Reaper. And the statement "it only had husk spikes" would mean that we had explored the entire Reaper, to be sure of that and since Reapers are quite huge I honestly doubt Shepard has explored the entire "ship".

Modifié par rhistel, 03 avril 2010 - 03:54 .

[Saint Op]

I took it as a nick of time thing.



A cut scene when you fisrt get to the defense towers that showed them dragging a pod with lilith in it and standing near /next to Ash/Kaden then running off to fight Shep would of helped alot it appears. Then another with the effect wearing off when they left.

[Sago_mulch]

Ablaz3d wrote...

 How did Ashley or Kaiden survive on Horizon when Lilith and all those around here were taken?

HEY MAN THIS VERY ORIGINAL THREAD MAN VERY ORIGINAL. I CARE ABOUT THIS STUFF DEEPLY TOO MAN

COOL STORY BRO

[singe_101]

Dave of Canada wrote...

Well, if they actually did the whole-crew kidnap scene and only your squad mates and Joker remained - something would've been off, people would argue it would've been a bigger hole. Yet, if they were taken, gameplay wise it would've sucked because you had no more squad mates than the two you took for the rest of the missions until the suicide mission itself.

I can't accept the "safety" of the shuttle. And I also reject the instant doom of collectors boarding the Normandy, rather than "holding the line" which can be done on THEIR ship.

What's ridiculous is that Joker manages to "save" the Normandy but, say, Samara, Jack, Jacob, Mordin, Miranda, and Garrus couldn't.

But this is a chronic problem for this game, just punt and file it under irregularities or wait until ME3 (rachni, Alliance, ExoGenii, weapons). There are very interesting little sideplots that were hinted at with messages, such as Toombs ambushing Shepard or Helena Blake doing anything, but the side missions were waste like moving the bot with power cells and walking on the crashed ship. That one is also funny because we get to control another character in the game, but THE character in the game is on a precarious ship to get some log, not a redshirt.

Modifié par singe_101, 03 avril 2010 - 04:38 .

[Landline]

They remained because they were paralyzed at the edge of the colony, the collectors landed in the center.

[IoCaster]

According to TIM, the Collectors were supposedly lured to the Horizon colony by the presence of Ash/Kaiden.

One question that comes to mind is, what was their purpose? Were they intending to abduct Ash/Kaiden? Were they anticipating that Shepard would show up so that they'd get an opportunity to grab him/her?

If they were going to abduct Ash/Kaiden, then why didn't they? They had enough opportunity to grab ~1/3 of the colony and Ash/Kaiden was among the first group of victims to get swarmed. They were able to grab Lilith who was in the immediate vicinity. If in fact Ash/Kaiden was the target in the first place, then it doesn't really make any sense that he/she wasn't the first victim to be hauled off.

If they were anticipating that Shepard would show up at the scene, then why weren't they better prepared to fight, kill or abduct him/her?

It's a bit of a contrived mess any way you look at it. The Collectors chose Horizon because of Ash/Kaiden, but somehow forgot to grab him/her even though they had every opportunity to do so. Huh?

As far as the question of how exactly Ash/Kaiden was able to recover from the swarm stasis effect, we're not given any explanation in the game. If the stasis effect is truly short lived then it would seem likely that Ash/Kaiden should have been accompanied by at least a couple of other colonists who'd fought off the effects in the same time frame. That didn't happen so we're left to assume that perhaps their armor has the capability of fighting off the effects given enough time. That's just pure speculation but it's plausible since we're given no other explanation. Either way you have to take it on faith that there's a reasonable explanation for it all.

[Sina84]

rhistel wrote...

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

Someone else mentioned this to me, which I found curious. When I asked him for evidence, all I got in response was a link to a dev video where they discussed the idea. Perhaps I'm wrong, but where in game is it actually specified that the scions/abominations are necessarily Collector made?

Aren't abominations just upgraded husks? Scions also seem to use the same technology as husks, so I would say that all three are Reaper technology (which Collectors use, because they are themselves products of Reaper technology). So I don't find it odd that those creatures are aboard a Reaper. And the statement "it only had husk spikes" would mean that we had explored the entire Reaper, to be sure of that and since Reapers are quite huge I honestly doubt Shepard has explored the entire "ship".

Collectors are essentially Reapers since they have no control of their own, so saying Collector made = Reaper made. Point is, Harbinger/Collectors experiemented with Husks during the last two years to make advanced versions such as scions. The tech to make scions is new, not 37 million years old, according to the writers.

The only way for this to work logically would be if Harbinger shared this information with the derelict Reaper, so that it could construct these things on its own. But that doesn't make any sense, since if the Reapers knew about the derelict's existance, they would've done something about it during one of the 50 000 year cycles in the past 37 million years. They wouldn't leave it there to be studied and copied (SR2) and have its IFF stolen.

I guess one plausable explanation would be that the derelict Reaper was so badly damaged that it couldn't transmit anything, but it could pick up transmissions, so it listened to Reapers/Collector base data and built the tech off of that. But that is also kind of unbelievable given how limited it was in its state. It seems Reapers need servants with apposable thumbs and stuff to make these things. All it seemed capable of doing was slowly mindcontrol the researchers to impale themselves.

[Rodriguer2000]

It would have been cool if they got taken and you could choose to save them at the collector base

[Rodriguer2000]

It would have been cool if they got taken and you could choose to save them at the collector base

[BaladasDemnevanni]

Sina84 wrote...

Collectors are essentially Reapers since they have no control of their own, so saying Collector made = Reaper made. Point is, Harbinger/Collectors experiemented with Husks during the last two years to make advanced versions such as scions. The tech to make scions is new, not 37 million years old, according to the writers.

The only way for this to work logically would be if Harbinger shared this information with the derelict Reaper, so that it could construct these things on its own. But that doesn't make any sense, since if the Reapers knew about the derelict's existance, they would've done something about it during one of the 50 000 year cycles in the past 37 million years. They wouldn't leave it there to be studied and copied (SR2) and have its IFF stolen.

I guess one plausable explanation would be that the derelict Reaper was so badly damaged that it couldn't transmit anything, but it could pick up transmissions, so it listened to Reapers/Collector base data and built the tech off of that. But that is also kind of unbelievable given how limited it was in its state. It seems Reapers need servants with apposable thumbs and stuff to make these things. All it seemed capable of doing was slowly mindcontrol the researchers to impale themselves.

But I'm still trying to understand where the idea that the Collectors made Abominations/Scions is coming from. Collectors clearly have the ability to create them, but I'm not seeing where this is simply their creation. The fact that scions/abominations were aboard the Derelict Reaper seemed to indicate that the technology predated the Collectors.

[DurkBakala]

Maybe you just stopped the Collectors before they took her, and the seeker swarms effects wore off. Everything doesn't have to have a super awesome explanation y'know.

Why is it that the supposed hardcore fans are the ones that primarily bash this game? Jeez, Bioware probably hate you all by now.

(I should say this post isn't aimed really at this thread individually, but most of the threads made on this board.)

Cue the hating!

Modifié par DurkBakala, 03 avril 2010 - 07:05 .

[trigger2kill1]

artistic license

[BaladasDemnevanni]

DurkBakala wrote...

Why is it that the supposed hardcore fans are the ones that primarily bash this game? Jeez, Bioware probably hate you all by now.


Cue the hating!

Well, in their defense,  it's for the same reason why most Star Wars fans hate on Episodes I and II. They look at ME2 as not representing the true "spirit" of ME and merely an effort to make money. I disagree personally, but there it is.

[Sina84]

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

But I'm still trying to understand where the idea that the Collectors made Abominations/Scions is coming from. Collectors clearly have the ability to create them, but I'm not seeing where this is simply their creation.

Well, who else would've made them? Since sovereign died, the Reapers don't really have alot of other ways to make things happen in the galaxy.

But it's not really the Collector's creation. It's Harbinger's creation, and the idea is that he's creating them by controlling the Collectors to do it. While it might be a collective formula between all Reapers of how to make new advanced husks, the Collectors/Harbinger are doing the actual labor, because, well, again, who else? As far as we know, there are no living Reapers inside the milky way, (because it wouldn't make any sense if there were) so the Collector's were the Reaper's only known physical link to the galaxy at the time these things were created.

BaladasDemnevanni wrote...

The fact that scions/abominations were aboard the Derelict Reaper seemed to indicate that the technology predated the Collectors.

That is why it's a plothole. They make it clear that these are "evolved" forms of Husks from those in ME1, both ingame and from the developers. The Reapers have been experimenting with Husk technology during the last two years to create these things, which is why they don't belong on the derelict.