223 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

Darht Jayder wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Darht Jayder wrote...

Everyone does know that the OP's post is not a plot hole......? It may be unlikely that Ash or Kaiden would survive....but not impossible and therefore not an unexplainable plot hole.

It's also unlikely, but not impossible, that the Fairy Godmother teleported from Dimension Bizarro and sprinkled Unfreezing Invisibility Emo Chest Pounding pixie dust on Ashley/Kaidan right when Shepard elbowed the Praetorian.

It's also unlikely, but not impossible, that you will respond to a contrary opinion with a lucid, well thought out, sensible argument.

I'm quite sure we're done here.

[smudboy]

RenownedRyan wrote...

You people realize that this is a video game? Not a Shakespearean tragedy. It doesn't have to have a perfect story, it doesn't have to make perfect sense. The only time you notice these things is when you search for them. So do yourselves and everyone else on the forum a favor and stop searching for them. You're spamming up the place with this trash.

Nevermind the man behind the curtain.  Nothing to see here folks.

*waves to Mac*

[smudboy]

Xaijin wrote...

Mayhaps because what occurred in this particular instance was perfectly "fixable" with just a tad more proper prior planning and some already available animation showing the Accuser: hiding, or breaking free/using biotics.

Totally agree.  Lots of expositions/showcases would've worked.

[smudboy]

rhistel wrote...
Maybe I should explain what I meant by "experimental". I didn't mean the hybrid gameplay style, but I rather BW's attempt to make a continuous story that carries your decisions from one instalment to another, this hasn't been done before (at least I haven't heard of any other projects like this), hence the term "experimental". (It is a shame however that some of the more annoying mistakes in storytelling are not connected with the potential issues caused by carrying over the player's previous decisions, hopefully BW also noticed that, and will try to make up for it).

Agreed.
To be honest the only part of your reply I really don't agree with is that ME2 failed as a sequel (I can be persuaded that it could've been better, but not that it failed). But there was a 19+ page long thread dedicated to that and I don't want to start that discussion all over again.

These two all point to the belief that ME2 is a sequel.  The only way ME2 is a sequel is with 1) random continuity (mostly from imports, some locales and characters), 2) the 2 in the title.  It should have had overarching plot continuity, and develop that as the focus, and everything else like imports, side quests, side characters be tasty side dishes amidst a beefy, succulent, juicy, delicious prime rib main course.

The plot of ME2 doesn't follow the buildup from the end of ME1.  We're suddenly thrust into a proxy war about humans disappearing.  Now this is all fine, provided it connects -- to the impending doom of the universe through the cycle of destruction from million year old machines, who view all organic life as ants -- but it doesn't.  All we know is the Collectors Must Be Stopped because they take people.  We don't know why a Reaper was being built in such a manner by the end of ME2.  By then, we're in the same situation and resolution as the end of ME1.  We don't even know how Harbinger is a Reaper.

Now ME1 had some big shoes to fill.  This is not what an ME1 sequel should've done.  It felt like one giant side quest of side quests, that literally told 10+ other awesome stories, completely unrelated to the one it was supposed to be telling.

[rhistel]

smudboy wrote...

Now ME1 had some big shoes to fill.  This
is not what an ME1 sequel should've done.  It felt like one giant side
quest of side quests, that literally told 10+ other awesome
stories, completely unrelated to the one it was supposed to be telling.

I understand your point, but I just do not agree with it.
Your opinion is that the revelations about the Reapers and Protheans' fate don't add to the overarching plot and are not enough to justify ME2 as a sequel, and at this point we just disagree (although I do respect your opinion). But like I've said this was already discussed elsewhere, I don't know if we want to revive (and to some extent plainly copy) this discussion in this thread. We have already come quite close to a nice little agreement on many matters, I think we shouldn't waste that

Modifié par rhistel, 07 avril 2010 - 11:46 .

[bdipauly]

Jeez.... a game comes along that shows some depth rather than 99% of all the other games out there that just tell you to "kill a lot of things, because that's the erm, game" and you tear it to pieces.

[kaotician]

Kaiden/Ashley survived because they're in league with the Collector's/Reapers, via the Alliance they work for. The Collector's left them for this reason.

[smudboy]

rhistel wrote...

smudboy wrote...

Now ME1 had some big shoes to fill.  This
is not what an ME1 sequel should've done.  It felt like one giant side
quest of side quests, that literally told 10+ other awesome
stories, completely unrelated to the one it was supposed to be telling.

I understand your point, but I just do not agree with it.
Your opinion is that the revelations about the Reapers and Protheans' fate don't add to the overarching plot and are not enough to justify ME2 as a sequel, and at this point we just disagree (although I do respect your opinion). But like I've said this was already discussed elsewhere, I don't know if we want to revive (and to some extent plainly copy) this discussion in this thread. We have already come quite close to a nice little agreement on many matters, I think we shouldn't waste that

It just means they took one species and experimented on them instead of...whatever they'd normally do every destructive cycle.

Look at the Collector Cruiser mission.  We find out Collectors are Protheans.  No one's contesting that as useless exposition.  But our ME2 plot is to Fight the Collectors, and toward that, it means nothing (and it should mean something.)  Did this give us an advantage?  No.  Did Shepard's Prothean cipher and visions do anything?  No.  If we ended up learning more about how the Protheans were controlled and transformed as the rest of the story went on, we might learn why this happened, what the Reapers were trying to do, if it was infact the Reapers who did this.  We did however find where the Omega-4 relay points to, but with no other data to progressing the plot of ME2, we still have no clue what our quest involves.  Which would be fine, if we're exploring, and it's a long story.  But our mission and methods are specific: stop the enemy ASAP.

Even though we've no clue on how to stop (or whatever we're going to find) the enemy past the relay, the only thing we get is camouflage (IFF) to hide ourselves/allow us to travel, and off we go.  We still use an A-Team tactic: getting a bunch of deadly people into a suped up "camouflaged" armored weapons van, and charge it straight into enemy territory.  Only this is worse, because we're in space, and we have no idea what we'll find, save exploding suns, blackholes, and potentially the Cruiser.  We're also expecting to stealthy park the ship to fight a land war in Asia, by getting everyone outside the van.  (Or else all we really needed was Garrus (or Joker) with firing control.)

If the Collectors had some repository of data that helped us understand the enemy more (the Cruiser, how many, what we're up again, what's past the relay, etc.), that data could've been nicely packaged with the revelation that they were Protheans, either from the data mine or the IFF.  Then we start the team building, getting specialists for a particular purpose, upgrading, planning an attack, etc.  This is why the plot is backwards.

[BaladasDemnevanni]

smudboy wrote...

Even though we've no clue on how to stop (or whatever we're going to find) the enemy past the relay, the only thing we get is camouflage (IFF) to hide ourselves/allow us to travel, and off we go.  We still use an A-Team tactic: getting a bunch of deadly people into a suped up "camouflaged" armored weapons van, and charge it straight into enemy territory.  Only this is worse, because we're in space, and we have no idea what we'll find, save exploding suns, blackholes, and potentially the Cruiser.  We're also expecting to stealthy park the ship to fight a land war in Asia, by getting everyone outside the van.  (Or else all we really needed was Garrus (or Joker) with firing control.)

I want to contest this one particular point because I find it more interesting than the others. Now unless I'm very much mistaken, you're very big on this "Apologists' Argument". That is to say you think that it's wrong that some of us are using the potential success of ME3 as an argument that ME2 is acceptable.

The problem with the direction of your argument is it doesn't take into account how these seemingly non-sensical details can be placed in a larger context. Even looking at our earlier thread (Did the plot of ME2 accomplish anything?), you argue why TIM is sending you after all these different specialists when you have no idea what is on the other side of the relay. Why send you through the relay, etc.
 
Hypothetically, what if we were to find out that TIM knew from the beginning what you would find beyond the Omega IV relay and happened to plan out every detail out to the last letter? Does his plan for sending you through the Relay not "work"? I would say it bloody well does. The point I'm making isn't that this is exactly how Bioware is setting up the plot to be, but to show that you seem to be judging the story before it is complete. There's any number of explanations which are possible that could turn something you hate in ME2 into something you love in ME3.

Now some of these elements really haven't been fleshed out quite yet, such as Collectors being Protheans. But are they supposed to be?

In Episode V, when Yoda answers "There is another" to Obi-Wan's "That boy is our last hope" I can easily call that an inconsequential detail. Did that serve to further the plot of the film in any way? No. Instead, it set up Luke and Leia as siblings for Episode VI. The issue I have with your approach is that every story is not self-contained. Without Episode IV, I doubt anyone would give a damn (let alone understand) what is going on in Episode V. Your argument seems to be "This detail was given now, so it has to be used at this particular moment" which is not how every good plot must function. If this were the case since every plot must "stand alone", there would be no such thing as a good sequel, since it must assume everyone is already familiar with the characters.

Modifié par BaladasDemnevanni, 08 avril 2010 - 01:23 .

[Commander_David]

The Council are a bunch of brain dead morons... rather would live in the Terminus

[rhistel]

smudboy wrote...

It just means they took one species and experimented on them instead of...whatever they'd normally do every destructive cycle.

Look at the Collector Cruiser mission.  We find out Collectors are Protheans.  No one's contesting that as useless exposition.  But our ME2 plot is to Fight the Collectors, and toward that, it means nothing (and it should mean something.)  Did this give us an advantage?  No.  Did Shepard's Prothean cipher and visions do anything?  No.  If we ended up learning more about how the Protheans were controlled and transformed as the rest of the story went on, we might learn why this happened, what the Reapers were trying to do, if it was infact the Reapers who did this.  We did however find where the Omega-4 relay points to, but with no other data to progressing the plot of ME2, we still have no clue what our quest involves.  Which would be fine, if we're exploring, and it's a long story.  But our mission and methods are specific: stop the enemy ASAP.

It is after the Collector Cruiser mission that we learn the location of the Collector Base, and we also learn that it is a base/space station and not a "homeworld"/planet, because something this big wouldn't be able to survivie with all the black holes, exploding suns etc. What's more, it's also confimed that there has to exist an IFF system, because simply flying through the relay is too unpredictable (with all the hazards waiting on the other side) to be efficient. (Actually, it's more or at least the same amount of information than we had about the Conduit before reaching Ilos). And I still don't know why solving one of the biggest mysteries in ME universe (what exactly happened to the Protheans) is completely useless. And we do know what the Reapers were probably trying to do with Protheans (construct a Reaper out of them). Yes there is the word probably in the above sentence, but it's too early for us to get any final answers on the matter. Besides I think this assumption wasn't made by EDI just to tease us, and is probably quite close to what had really happened.

smudboy wrote...

Even though we've no clue on how to stop (or whatever we're going to find) the enemy past the relay, the only thing we get is camouflage (IFF) to hide ourselves/allow us to travel, and off we go.  We still use an A-Team tactic: getting a bunch of deadly people into a suped up "camouflaged" armored weapons van, and charge it straight into enemy territory.  Only this is worse, because we're in space, and we have no idea what we'll find, save exploding suns, blackholes, and potentially the Cruiser.  We're also expecting to stealthy park the ship to fight a land war in Asia, by getting everyone outside the van.  (Or else all we really needed was Garrus (or Joker) with firing control.)

If the Collectors had some repository of data that helped us understand the enemy more (the Cruiser, how many, what we're up again, what's past the relay, etc.), that data could've been nicely packaged with the revelation that they were Protheans, either from the data mine or the IFF.  Then we start the team building, getting specialists for a particular purpose, upgrading, planning an attack, etc.  This is why the plot is backwards.

The problem is that the suicide mission was in fact a kind of recon. Yes, everyone had hoped that stopping Collectors might be possible during this mission, but most believed it to be a one way trip. TIM states at some point that even with the IFF he wasn't sure that jumping through the Omega-4 Relay is possible at all. So the mission might've as well ended before it even began. Besides there were hardly any other options, the Collectors were successful in keeping their operation under the grid, sending more than one ship through the O-4 Relay would take quite a long time (and still the ships would go in blind) and only an infamous terrorist organization cares about the abductions at all. So sending one well equipped and well staffed ship through the Relay to gather some vital data (and preferably do some damage while at it) seems at least a bit plausible.

Modifié par rhistel, 08 avril 2010 - 12:04 .

[smudboy]

rhistel wrote...
It is after the Collector Cruiser mission that we learn the location of the Collector Base, and we also learn that it is a base/space station and not a "homeworld"/planet, because something this big wouldn't be able to survivie with all the black holes, exploding suns etc. What's more, it's also confimed that there has to exist an IFF system, because simply flying through the relay is too unpredictable (with all the hazards waiting on the other side) to be efficient. (Actually, it's more or at least the same amount of information than we had about the Conduit before reaching Ilos). And I still don't know why solving one of the biggest mysteries in ME universe (what exactly happened to the Protheans) is completely useless. And we do know what the Reapers were probably trying to do with Protheans (construct a Reaper out of them). Yes there is the word probably in the above sentence, but it's too early for us to get any final answers on the matter. Besides I think this assumption wasn't made by EDI just to tease us, and is probably quite close to what had really happened.

We only learn that it's in the galactic core.  EDI and Mordin speculate that it's probably a space station, and that a small safe zone probably exists.

I never said figuring out Collectors are Protheans is useless. I would say it's useless to the ME2 plot, which is to Fight the Collectors (or at least stop them from taking humans), unless it provided some kind of tactical advantage.  Like if Mordin developed some kind of ammo type/armor or whatever.

During the discussion with TIM after the Collector Cruiser, Shepard doesn't like it that everyone nearly got killed.  So why would Shepard suddenly bullrush the Omega-4 relay without still having any intel on the plot/opposing force?

The problem is that the suicide mission was in fact a kind of recon. Yes, everyone had hoped that stopping Collectors might be possible during this mission, but most believed it to be a one way trip. TIM states at some point that even with the IFF he wasn't sure that jumping through the Omega-4 Relay is possible at all. So the mission might've as well ended before it even began. Besides there were hardly any other options, the Collectors were successful in keeping their operation under the grid, sending more than one ship through the O-4 Relay would take quite a long time (and still the ships would go in blind) and only an infamous terrorist organization cares about the abductions at all. So sending one well equipped and well staffed ship through the Relay to gather some vital data (and preferably do some damage while at it) seems at least a bit plausible.

Recon does not involve putting all your eggs in one basket, and throwing it and an experimental piece of technology into a possible safe zone surrounded by exploding suns and black holes.

Recon (in space) involve probes, scanning, setting up satellite networks, maybe hacking into enemy transmissions.  An IFF probe programmed to return would've been a pretty logical choice.

The fact that the Council and Alliance don't care is another issue entirely, on the same lines as Ashley/Kaidan.

Modifié par smudboy, 08 avril 2010 - 02:13 .

[rhistel]

smudboy wrote...

We only learn that it's in the galactic core.  EDI and Mordin speculate that it's probably a space station, and that a small safe zone probably exists.

Yes, but these speculations are based upon solid facts. Because nothing as big as a planet could exist in the galactic core (which is stated by Jacob), space station is the most probable option.

smudboy wrote...
I never said figuring out Collectors are Protheans is useless. I would say it's useless to the ME2 plot, which is to Fight the Collectors (or at least stop them from taking humans), unless it provided some kind of tactical advantage.  Like if Mordin developed some kind of ammo type/armor or whatever.

I'm not an expert in literary terms but I don't think that only elements directly impacting the plot's resolution are important.

smudboy wrote...
During the discussion with TIM after the Collector Cruiser, Shepard doesn't like it that everyone nearly got killed.  So why would Shepard suddenly bullrush the Omega-4 relay without still having any intel on the plot/opposing force?

Shepard was angry because TIM had lied to him and lured them into the Collector's trap on purpose , I don't think this can be compared to the suicide mission.  

smudboy wrote...

Recon does not involve putting all your eggs in one basket, and throwing it and an experimental piece of technology into a possible safe zone surrounded by exploding suns and black holes.
Recon (in space) involve probes, scanning, setting up satellite networks, maybe hacking into enemy transmissions.  An IFF probe programmed to return would've been a pretty logical choice.

There had to be somekind of safe zone for the Collectors to be there in the first place, So the safe zone is more than just "possible". It was challenging for Joker (the best Alliance pilot) and EDI to navigate their way past the O-4 Relay, a probe would probably be destroyed right after passing through the relay.

smudboy wrote...

The fact that the Council and Alliance don't care is another issue entirely, on the same lines as Ashley/Kaidan.

It was clearly explained why they don't take any official action. Apart from wild speculations (involving an enigmatic race and ancient machines which officially don't exist at all) there is no evidence that the abductions are anything more than random attacks. (You may buy that or not, but unlike in Ash/Kaidan's case the game provides an explanation here)

[smudboy]

rhistel wrote...
Yes, but these speculations are based upon solid facts. Because nothing as big as a planet could exist in the galactic core (which is stated by Jacob), space station is the most probable option.

What does Jacob, or anyone know of the Collectors and the Reapers, or even Shepard, about how they live or how they can exist there?  Why couldn't there be habitable planet(s) there?  Mordin speculates about a station, then Miranda says "even the Collectors don't have that", Shepard says it's the Reapers.  EDI mentions the IFF is needed for "more advanced encrypted protocols" to have a more specific location, as drift would cause distances to be over 1000 k.  That doesn't say how big the space is, or makes the deduction irrefutable; just that the Omega-4 operates differently.

Where and what are these solid facts?  Again, all we know is that we're going somewhere in the galactic core.

There could be a mass relay there, or a series of mass relays, or a fleet of Collector Ships, or an entire solar system.

I'm not an expert in literary terms but I don't think that only elements directly impacting the plot's resolution are important.

They are if you want to tell a clear, coherent story, or if you're as subtle as Hemmingway.  Which I don't think would be wise in this type of space opera.

Shepard was angry because TIM had lied to him and lured them into the Collector's trap on purpose , I don't think this can be compared to the suicide mission.  

If the end result is "dead", why not?  Shepard doesn't like risking lives.  Which is exactly what he/she does when they decide to go straight through the relay.

There had to be somekind of safe zone for the Collectors to be there in the first place, So the safe zone is more than just "possible". It was challenging for Joker (the best Alliance pilot) and EDI to navigate their way past the O-4 Relay, a probe would probably be destroyed right after passing through the relay.

How do you know that?  Probes are significantly smaller.  I'm not sure what coming out of a relay does to the inertia of an object, but it would be hell of a lot more maneuverable than the Normandy.  At least if they attempted something along these lines it wouldn't seem so bizarre.

It was clearly explained why they don't take any official action. Apart from wild speculations (involving an enigmatic race and ancient machines which officially don't exist at all) there is no evidence that the abductions are anything more than random attacks. (You may buy that or not, but unlike in Ash/Kaidan's case the game provides an explanation here)

Random attacks?  After the loss of 100k+ people?  On only human settlements?  Do you know what a serial killer is?  More than one attack is enough for the Alliance to get off their asses and do something.  But after 2 years?  It's completely insane.  There would be rioting and bombings in the streets of the Citadel from millions of humans and aliens.

Whatever their explanation is, it couldn't justify such behavior.

[Avissel]

smudboy wrote...
There could be a mass relay there, or a series of mass relays, or a fleet of Collector Ships, or an entire solar system.

Current science states that galatic core is comprised manly of a super massive black whole and ethier old stage red stars or massive stars. It is not an enviroment well suited for planet formation.

If the end result is "dead", why not?  Shepard doesn't like risking lives.  Which is exactly what he/she does when they decide to go straight through the relay.

There is a difference between going into a situation knowing what to expect and not knowing. Shepard was upset because lives were unknowingly risked

How do you know that?  Probes are significantly smaller.  I'm not sure what coming out of a relay does to the inertia of an object, but it would be hell of a lot more maneuverable than the Normandy.  At least if they attempted something along these lines it wouldn't seem so bizarre.

it was stated very clearly that without the codes the relay drifts objects coming through much worse than ones with the code. Anything coming through without the code would be hurled directly into thicker parts of the debry field.

Random attacks?  After the loss of 100k+ people?  On only human settlements?  Do you know what a serial killer is?  More than one attack is enough for the Alliance to get off their asses and do something.  But after 2 years?  It's completely insane.  There would be rioting and bombings in the streets of the Citadel from millions of humans and aliens.
Whatever their explanation is, it couldn't justify such behavior.

This entire qoute shows that you cant think in terms of the situation. All the people dissappearing where in the Terminus, which is outside Alliance and Citadel control.
If a guy in Sweden goes on a killing spree, they dont call the NYPD to fix it. Your reaction of what " would happen" is based on what YOU know, not what the characters know.

[smudboy]

Avissel wrote...
Current science states that galatic core is comprised manly of a super massive black whole and ethier old stage red stars or massive stars. It is not an enviroment well suited for planet formation.

It seems most planets that are even detectable or theorized would exist there would be "failed stars", and wouldn't be places for supporting life.

But the current understanding of the Reapers doesn't follow current science fact.  It doesn't preclude that they could not be able to build bases on such planets.  If they could create a pocket for ships to pass through, putting a base, or series of bases, or anything for that matter, in space, on a rock, or large meteors, or a "failed star" planet (provided it had heavy elements), doesn't seem impossible.  Especially when we know the Reapers are at least 37 million years old, and can create indestructible mass relays that make you travel faster than light.

Nevermind what current science tells us, even if you're up to date on your astronomy; you're still talking about an unknown part of space, with an unknown million year old race of gods doing science-defying things.

There is a difference between going into a situation knowing what to expect and not knowing. Shepard was upset because lives were unknowingly risked

Yeah.  And now Shepard's knowingly risking lives.

it was stated very clearly that without the codes the relay drifts objects coming through much worse than ones with the code. Anything coming through without the code would be hurled directly into thicker parts of the debry field.

Yes.  Use an IFF probe.

This entire qoute shows that you cant think in terms of the situation. All the people dissappearing where in the Terminus, which is outside Alliance and Citadel control.
If a guy in Sweden goes on a killing spree, they dont call the NYPD to fix it. Your reaction of what " would happen" is based on what YOU know, not what the characters know.

No, but the people of America would be pretty pissed if every time everyone traveling from New York goes to Sweden and never returns.  For two years.  And this amounts to 100k+ deaths.  The Federal government would declare war or something.

Yeah, and the creators are doing a ****** poor job of making it believable.

And yet the Alliance builds massive anti-air laser turrets on one colony (Horizon) that didn't even work, in the Terminus System.  As opposed to, I don't know, patrolling with their ships, setting up intelligence satellites, etc.  (And nevermind not giving Shepard any option to provide any evidence, or even bring up anything more than a mention about the Collectors to the Council/Anderson.)

[kaotician]

smudboy wrote...

Avissel wrote...
Current science states that galatic core is comprised manly of a super massive black whole and ethier old stage red stars or massive stars. It is not an enviroment well suited for planet formation.

It seems most planets that are even detectable or theorized would exist there would be "failed stars", and wouldn't be places for supporting life.

But the current understanding of the Reapers doesn't follow current science fact.  It doesn't preclude that they could not be able to build bases on such planets.  If they could create a pocket for ships to pass through, putting a base, or series of bases, or anything for that matter, in space, on a rock, or large meteors, or a "failed star" planet (provided it had heavy elements), doesn't seem impossible.  Especially when we know the Reapers are at least 37 million years old, and can create indestructible mass relays that make you travel faster than light.

Nevermind what current science tells us, even if you're up to date on your astronomy; you're still talking about an unknown part of space, with an unknown million year old race of gods doing science-defying things.

There is a difference between going into a situation knowing what to expect and not knowing. Shepard was upset because lives were unknowingly risked

Yeah.  And now Shepard's knowingly risking lives.

it was stated very clearly that without the codes the relay drifts objects coming through much worse than ones with the code. Anything coming through without the code would be hurled directly into thicker parts of the debry field.

Yes.  Use an IFF probe.

This entire qoute shows that you cant think in terms of the situation. All the people dissappearing where in the Terminus, which is outside Alliance and Citadel control.
If a guy in Sweden goes on a killing spree, they dont call the NYPD to fix it. Your reaction of what " would happen" is based on what YOU know, not what the characters know.

No, but the people of America would be pretty pissed if every time everyone traveling from New York goes to Sweden and never returns.  For two years.  And this amounts to 100k+ deaths.  The Federal government would declare war or something.

Yeah, and the creators are doing a ****** poor job of making it believable.

And yet the Alliance builds massive anti-air laser turrets on one colony (Horizon) that didn't even work, in the Terminus System.  As opposed to, I don't know, patrolling with their ships, setting up intelligence satellites, etc.  (And nevermind not giving Shepard any option to provide any evidence, or even bring up anything more than a mention about the Collectors to the Council/Anderson.)

That's just a 'race'centric' view, in the same way that a nationalist view circa 17th century or so currently prevails in america. In reality, it just doesn't wash - though being European, I love the idea that deep space and the terrors it holds is much like Sweden to a Yank!!!!

[rhistel]

[quote]smudboy wrote...

It seems most planets that are even detectable or theorized would exist there would be "failed stars", and wouldn't be places for supporting life.

But the current understanding of the Reapers doesn't follow current science fact.  It doesn't preclude that they could not be able to build bases on such planets.  If they could create a pocket for ships to pass through, putting a base, or series of bases, or anything for that matter, in space, on a rock, or large meteors, or a "failed star" planet (provided it had heavy elements), doesn't seem impossible.  Especially when we know the Reapers are at least 37 million years old, and can create indestructible mass relays that make you travel faster than light.

Nevermind what current science tells us, even if you're up to date on your astronomy; you're still talking about an unknown part of space, with an unknown million year old race of gods doing science-defying things.
[/quote]

I wouldn't exaggerate on this one, yes Reaper technology is advanced but not god-like, the Protheans were on the verge of duplicating the mass relays (theoretically the Reaper's greatest achievement), the Turians managed (to some extent, of course) to reproduce Sovereign's weaponry and the Alliance fleet shot down a Reaper. Not to mention that among other things the Reapers harvest the tech of conquered civilizations (what for if they're already god-like). What's more, the Reapers experience very long periods of hibernation, so we don't how much of the (let's say) 37 million years were actually spent to advance their tech. Besides Reaper tech is still focused around using the mass effect, a phenomenon which is more or less understood by Council races, so Mordin and Jacob migh actually know what they are talking about.

[quote]smudboy wrote...

Yeah.  And now Shepard's knowingly risking lives.
[/quote]

Believe it or not, there is a difference. It's purely psychological but it's there.

[quote]smudboy wrote...

Yes.  Use an IFF probe.
[/quote]

[quote]smudboy wrote...

No, but the people of America would be pretty pissed if every time everyone traveling from New York goes to Sweden and never returns.  For two years.  And this amounts to 100k+ deaths.  The Federal government would declare war or something.

Yeah, and the creators are doing a ****** poor job of making it believable.
[/quote]

The Council would never allow for a war with the Terminus Systems (and sending patrol cruisers could be seen as a provocation) even over a 100k human lives. Besides 100k may seem a large number in the perspective of one planet, but  compared the entire galactic population, it doesn't. The Terminus Systems are an unstable region by default and people settle there (at their own risk) to escape the Alliance authority (it's stated in the game) so the fact that Alliance is doing something at all for those colonies might be a proof that Alliance command is concerned about the situation.

quote]smudboy wrote...

They are if you want to tell a clear, coherent story, or if you're as
subtle as Hemmingway.  Which I don't think would be wise in this type of
space opera.
[/quote]

You know that the detail in which we are discussing and analysing this "space opera's" plot is as if it was actually written by Hemmingway...

Modifié par rhistel, 08 avril 2010 - 09:29 .

[smudboy]

rhistel wrote...
I wouldn't exaggerate on this one, yes Reaper technology is advanced but not god-like, the Protheans were on the verge of duplicating the mass relays (theoretically the Reaper's greatest achievement), the Turians managed (to some extent, of course) to reproduce Sovereign's weaponry and the Alliance fleet shot down a Reaper. Not to mention that among other things the Reapers harvest the tech of conquered civilizations (what for if they're already god-like). What's more, the Reapers experience very long periods of hibernation, so we don't how much of the (let's say) 37 million years were actually spent to advance their tech. Besides Reaper tech is still focused around using the mass effect, a phenomenon which is more or less understood by Council races, so Mordin and Jacob migh actually know what they are talking about.

I don't care if they invented it.  Unless they've been to where we're going, it's all speculation.  And this is on what might be there based on a theory of how Reapers might behave?  Not on how many enemies/bases/stations/ships/armadas there actually are, or we could be up again.   Speculation is not a basis for a "let's go there with everything" maneuver for "intel/I hope we can kill everything/have a land war in Asia after we land."

Believe it or not, there is a difference. It's purely psychological but it's there.

What matters is whether or not you've got an informed chance of not dying from any number of ways, not your personal reaction to that.  I fail to see how Shepard could've tipped off the Collectors if he knew he was walking into a trap.  And if he knew and still wanted to go in, he'd have at least some strategy of either getting out, or destroying the ship.

The Council would never allow for a war with the Terminus Systems (and sending patrol cruisers could be seen as a provocation) even over a 100k human lives. Besides 100k may seem a large number in the perspective of one planet, but  compared the entire galactic population, it doesn't. The Terminus Systems are an unstable region by default and people settle there (at their own risk) to escape the Alliance authority (it's stated in the game) so the fact that Alliance is doing something at all for those colonies might be a proof that Alliance command is concerned about the situation.

They keep talking about that.  What exactly would a war with an unpolitical area of space involve, and how would it start?  All we want to do is have Alliance ships patrol space where human colonies are located, not start randomly attacking other Terminus people places.  Even during the game, Ferris Fields and New Canton are gone, which means the Collectors haven't exactly been taking their time.  What exactly is so oppressive about the Alliance or the Council in regards to colony development?  When is the Alliance actually going to get off their asses and help their people?

The only evidence we've got is of them building laser towers and sending one soldier to Horizon, after 2 years of this going on.

You know that the detail in which we are discussing and analysing this "space opera's" plot is as if it was actually written by Hemmingway...

We'd be talking more about theme, symbolism, and characterization as opposed to "wtf is going on and why isn't anyone acting logically?"

[Avissel]

smudboy wrote...

They keep talking about that.  What exactly would a war with an unpolitical area of space involve, and how would it start?  All we want to do is have Alliance ships patrol space where human colonies are located, not start randomly attacking other Terminus people places.  Even during the game, Ferris Fields and New Canton are gone, which means the Collectors haven't exactly been taking their time.  What exactly is so oppressive about the Alliance or the Council in regards to colony development?  When is the Alliance actually going to get off their asses and help their people?

Honestly..how do you not get this? Those people ARE NOT PART OF THE ALLIANCE. They deleberatly moved to the Terminus to LEAVE. They are NOT ALLIANCE CITIZENS ANYMORE. The Terminus is not "Unpolitcal" It's all the races that didnt want to join the council, or the ones that left like the Batarians. So if a Council Race started to patrol  in the Terminus then those different races would see it as an act of war, the Council would be facinf multiple races and groups from the Terminus. It doesnt matter that it's a human Colony, it's still located in the Terminus systems.

[smudboy]

Avissel wrote...

smudboy wrote...
They keep talking about that.  What exactly would a war with an unpolitical area of space involve, and how would it start?  All we want to do is have Alliance ships patrol space where human colonies are located, not start randomly attacking other Terminus people places.  Even during the game, Ferris Fields and New Canton are gone, which means the Collectors haven't exactly been taking their time.  What exactly is so oppressive about the Alliance or the Council in regards to colony development?  When is the Alliance actually going to get off their asses and help their people?

Honestly..how do you not get this? Those people ARE NOT PART OF THE ALLIANCE. They deleberatly moved to the Terminus to LEAVE. They are NOT ALLIANCE CITIZENS ANYMORE. The Terminus is not "Unpolitcal" It's all the races that didnt want to join the council, or the ones that left like the Batarians. So if a Council Race started to patrol  in the Terminus then those different races would see it as an act of war, the Council would be facinf multiple races and groups from the Terminus. It doesnt matter that it's a human Colony, it's still located in the Terminus systems.

Yet the Alliance builds uncalibrated AA towers in the Terminus System on Horizon to "improve" relations?  How is that not seen as an act of war?  Did the Horizon colony grudgingly say yes?  Was this all a plot for one soldier to see whether or not Cerberus was involved in taking over 100k+ people?  If so, that's one hell of an inefficient means.  Did Horizon start asking the various races/other colonies or groups for assistance to stop the Alliance from building these massive weapons?  Seems no one raised concern having Alliance ships deliver and install these things either.

Yet they can't patrol, setup satellites/mass relay comm buoy's/do anything else to discover what's going on with the missing humans.

This all ties into the Council doing nothing either, since the Alliance is part of the Council.  If perhaps Shepard was granted the option to choose who to side with, then Shepard would represent that faction, instead of being part of the unambiguously evil Cerberus (Ashley/Kaidan: Grr!)

[BaladasDemnevanni]

smudboy wrote...

This all ties into the Council doing nothing either, since the Alliance is part of the Council.  If perhaps Shepard was granted the option to choose who to side with, then Shepard would represent that faction, instead of being part of the unambiguously evil Cerberus (Ashley/Kaidan: Grr!)

Let's look at the Council's track record, shall we?

1. Genocide on the Rachni.

2. Supporting use of the Genophage on the Krogans, their previous allies against the Rachni.

3. Creating an organization, consisting only of their own species, above the jurisdiction of any other authority, save their own: the Spectres 

Your loaded words do you no credit. Evil is a point of view. From quite a few positions, the Council is considered just as bad, if not worse than Cerberus. If I were a krogan, I'd probably consider the Council unambiguously evil too.  

[Avissel]

The guns were given to them as a gift. Also they aren't "Massive weapons" it's a set of defensive guns meant to make it so Pirates cant just land right in the Colony.



The Alliance offered the guns, the Colony accepted them. That's a bit different from sending in a full patrol of war ships.