166 réponses à ce sujet

[SithLordExarKun]

Kotor's story was rather cliche if you ask me... and its based on the SW universe which takes away more credit.



I enjoyed kotor for what it is, the interaction, the dialogue, the gameplay and the RPG aspects. The story isn't really award winning in my opinion.

[Onyx Jaguar]

It was overshadowed by the plot twist in my opinion. But it was a damn good plot twist. And well worth playing the game if you were not spoiled by it (which strangely playing it for the first time in 2007 I did not know about that sequence).

[MerinTB]

I'm not knocking KotOR - I loved the game.
I just like the Mass Effect games more.
And I don't like Star Wars in general (broken record, I know - I just came from my Star Wars RPG group and I'm again wondering why I keep playing...)

For those not following the action, the break down at my poll is as follows right now:

ME2 > ME1 > KotOR1 35% (18 votes)
KotOR1 > ME2 > ME1 23% (12 votes)
ME2 > KotOR1 > ME1 13% (7 votes)
ME1 > KotOR1 > ME2 12% (6 votes)
ME1 > ME2 > KotOR1 10% (5 votes)
KotOR1 > ME1 > ME 28% (4 votes)

ME1 beats KotOR1 29 votes to 23 votes. (where ME1 places before KotOR1)
ME2 beats KotOR1 30 to 22.

ME1 ranks number 1 in 11 votes
KotOR1 ranks number 1 in 16 votes
ME2 ranks number 1 in 25 votes

Do what you will with those numbers.

[JMan71]

Curunen wrote...

rumination888 wrote...

Nostalgia told me to vote for KOTOR1. And nostalgia is a hard thing to fight!

Indeed.

Story: KOTOR>ME1>ME2

Gameplay: ME2>ME1>KOTOR though this is a little unfair, what with one being turn based.

Overall: KOTOR>(ME2=ME1)

Difficult decision though, as they are all in my top ten list.

Oh, and KOTOR2, though expanding nicely on the gameplay mechanics of KOTOR1, just falls apart toward the end of the game.

Exactly this. Thanks for saving me time, rather than typing it myself.

[Kalfear]

MerinTB wrote...

I'm not knocking KotOR - I loved the game.
I just like the Mass Effect games more.
And I don't like Star Wars in general (broken record, I know - I just came from my Star Wars RPG group and I'm again wondering why I keep playing...)

For those not following the action, the break down at my poll is as follows right now:

ME2 > ME1 > KotOR1 35% (18 votes)
KotOR1 > ME2 > ME1 23% (12 votes)
ME2 > KotOR1 > ME1 13% (7 votes)
ME1 > KotOR1 > ME2 12% (6 votes)
ME1 > ME2 > KotOR1 10% (5 votes)
KotOR1 > ME1 > ME 28% (4 votes)

ME1 beats KotOR1 29 votes to 23 votes. (where ME1 places before KotOR1)
ME2 beats KotOR1 30 to 22.

ME1 ranks number 1 in 11 votes
KotOR1 ranks number 1 in 16 votes
ME2 ranks number 1 in 25 votes

Do what you will with those numbers.

WOW, what a amazing amount of imput from the people! Nice to see you got a good asmount of people playing to vote so your numbers in any kinda way accurate or reflective!

I remember a guy who ran a poll for his shooter fans that had like 80% of 40 people polled wanting more shooter mechanics and he put link in his signature as a official statement/request to Bioware regarding player feedback and desire. 
I think with your amazing number of votes, you should do the same!

(grins)

Thats what I think of those numbers
heh, you asked! 

[Atomic Space Vixen]

Storywise, they come pretty close to me. But KoTOR wins for superior gameplay.

[DukeOfNukes]

Although ME2 is popular HERE...almost everyone I talk to in person prefers both ME1 and KOTOR to ME2. They also agree that while ME2 is better TECHNICALLY...ME1 and KOTOR are both experiences that will stick with us for a lifetime. I'll never forget when I found out who you are in KOTOR, or the final few hours of ME1. ME2, by comparison, is a fairly forgettable experience, and what I ultimately remember most is...HOW MUCH I FREAKING HATED SCANNING.

[MerinTB]

Kalfear wrote...

MerinTB wrote...

I'm not knocking KotOR - I loved the game.
I just like the Mass Effect games more.
And I don't like Star Wars in general (broken record, I know - I just came from my Star Wars RPG group and I'm again wondering why I keep playing...)

For those not following the action, the break down at my poll is as follows right now:

ME2 > ME1 > KotOR1 35% (18 votes)
KotOR1 > ME2 > ME1 23% (12 votes)
ME2 > KotOR1 > ME1 13% (7 votes)
ME1 > KotOR1 > ME2 12% (6 votes)
ME1 > ME2 > KotOR1 10% (5 votes)
KotOR1 > ME1 > ME 28% (4 votes)

ME1 beats KotOR1 29 votes to 23 votes. (where ME1 places before KotOR1)
ME2 beats KotOR1 30 to 22.

ME1 ranks number 1 in 11 votes
KotOR1 ranks number 1 in 16 votes
ME2 ranks number 1 in 25 votes

Do what you will with those numbers.

WOW, what a amazing amount of imput from the people! Nice to see you got a good asmount of people playing to vote so your numbers in any kinda way accurate or reflective!

I remember a guy who ran a poll for his shooter fans that had like 80% of 40 people polled wanting more shooter mechanics and he put link in his signature as a official statement/request to Bioware regarding player feedback and desire. 
I think with your amazing number of votes, you should do the same!

(grins)

Thats what I think of those numbers
heh, you asked! 

And more poisoning of the well.

I put up the poll.  I posted a link to it in this thread.  And I voted in it once.  Outside of that, the results are landing as they will.
As I said earlier - these kinds of polls are extremely unscientific, the sample size is too small to be significant, and the sampling is too homogenous to be worth anything.  All this kind of poll proves is the opinions of the people who answered the poll and nothing else.

You can attempt special pleading by insinuating that I created the poll and then got together a bunch of people to vote the "way I wanted" - as you just did - but that doesn't make it true.  The poll is open to anyone on BSN - when created (as when any new poll is created) it is in the list of newest polls on the first page for however long it takes for enough new polls to be made for it to be shoved down off the first page of polls.

You liking KotOR1 more than ME1 or ME2 doesn't change the reality of what Darth Caine or my polls show.  Just as my prefering ME1 to KotOR1 doesn't change the fact that in my poll KotOR1 placed first more than ME1 did.

I could say you are a purple martian, and your purple martian friends are the only reason you have access to the internet.  You cannot disprove it, I cannot prove it, it's pointless to say it - but it has about as much meaning and relevance as you trying to insinuate that I'm a big shooter fan who's got all his shooter friends to flood Bioware just to prove absolutely nothing with a poll.

[SithLordExarKun]

^ Just ignore him Merin, he cannot accept the fact that there are more people that prefer ME2 over ME1.

[Terror_K]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

^ Just ignore him Merin, he cannot accept the fact that there are more people that prefer ME2 over ME1.

Of course there are. There are more people who prefer the likes of Halo, Gears of War and Modern Warfare 2 over a deep and decent RPG after all.

That, and the majority of people in the world are idiots.

[SithLordExarKun]

So are you implying anybody that prefers ME2 over ME1 is an idiot?

[Gaharia]

KOTOR II>KOTOR

ME2>ME

[Lucy Glitter]

I preferred 2 over 1... Even if the pacing was godawful.

edit: I also think Kotor 2 is better than Kotor 1.

Modifié par Lucy_Glitter, 04 avril 2010 - 09:21 .

[Terror_K]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

So are you implying anybody that prefers ME2 over ME1 is an idiot?

I'm just saying that ME2 was dumbed-down for the masses (the same masses that generally are fanboys of the aforementioned games), so of course more people are going to like it. Read from that whatever you like.

[Icinix]

Terror_K : I don't think 'Dumbed down for the masses' is a fair call. It's different, but I wouldn't call it dumbed down. Compacted yes, streamlined yes, but they took out a lot of what people complained about. That isn't dumbed down, that's listening to what fans (not masses) wanted.

Anyway, I have to say KOTOR1 was my favourite. Only because it was Star Wars and at the time it rocked my world. Although a lot has been improved in the game world since, at the time it just knocked me for six. Mass Effect did as well, but I was expecting it too. KOTOR came from nowhere.

[SithLordExarKun]

Terror_K wrote...

SithLordExarKun wrote...

So are you implying anybody that prefers ME2 over ME1 is an idiot?

I'm just saying that ME2 was dumbed-down for the masses (the same masses that generally are fanboys of the aforementioned games), so of course more people are going to like it. Read from that whatever you like.

So basically you're saying  that anybody who likes those games and likes ME2 is an idiot.

This is the kind of elitism from RPG players i am sick and tired of seeing. I don't know how playing a more "complex" game with an inventory system makes you look any more intelligent than the ones that enjoy shooter games.

For your information, i hated the games you have mentioned, Halo sucks since the first one, MW2 was a cash cow rip off of COD4 and queers of war is reletively uninteresting. I hardly enjoy FPS, in fact the only one ever worth playing is BC2 and i prefer games like DAO,Kotor over the majority of FPS.

[DustineMC]

I'd have to say Mass Effect 1. KOTOR 1 & 2 are both great games, but neither of them gave you the option of new game plus, so once you'd completed it, that was it! Mass Effect 1 gave you the option of advancing even further! Think about it, Bioware can't produce the games as fast as we can play them, so new game plus helps a lot!

[Darth_Trethon]

So he managed to get 5 people voting and he's boasting when the main poll in the OP of this thread has hundreds and shows the far superior game KotOR dominating over the mediocre crap ME by over 50 votes. It is a sad day to see gamers so vehemently defend a mediocre game over one of the greatest games of all time.



Yahtzee used to joke about Fantasy World Dizzy being the greatest game of all time but some people take the position of fighting for low quality to the next level.....obviously they'll always be wrong regardless of pointless arguments since games that have gameplay and story quality on level with fantasy world dizzy will never be close to as good as a high quality game like KotOR.

[mark29cdo]

The poll is a bit unfair as Kotor was released nearly 7 years ago, while ME and ME2 were released last year and this year!

But if Kotor was remade today with the same gameplay, engine and technology as ME, then I'm afraid that Kotor would win every time.

Saying that the amount of replayability in Kotor with all the Mods around is far superior to ME even today. ME is lacking in the modding scene of previous Bioware games!!

And yes i agree Jade Empire (another great game) should have been included in the poll but Kotor2 should not becuase its by Obsidian!!

[Terror_K]

Icinix wrote...

Terror_K : I don't think 'Dumbed down for the masses' is a fair call. It's different, but I wouldn't call it dumbed down. Compacted yes, streamlined yes, but they took out a lot of what people complained about. That isn't dumbed down, that's listening to what fans (not masses) wanted.

Its overly streamlined and overly simplified, so I think that qualifies as "dumbing down". A lot of fans would complain that while BioWare heard what was said, they failed to actually listen. Many fans wanted the broken stuff fixed in ME1, and the definition of "fixing" something isn't "scrap entirely and replace half of it with simplistic and shallow mechanics and the other half with nothing." If BioWare had actually listened to the fans, they wouldn't have binned half of ME1's stuff and called the solutions to its problems the elimination of the factors involved entirely. That's not solving the problem, that's running away from it and just ignoring it entirely and saying its no longer a problem because its no longer there at all. It's like trying to avoid getting a flat tyre by taking the wheels off your car.

And the thing is, BioWare had admitted to making the game appeal to the masses and trying to bring in the shooter crowd who generally don't play RPGs. Is this a bad thing? Well... not really, I guess, in concept. Bringing in new fans to the RPG crowd is good generally. But if you're  going to do it, do it with a fresh IP and a new game rather than hijacking an existing franchise, messing with it and dumbing it down for a new audience and then alienating half your old fans in the process.

But, I'll leave it at that... that's another topic for another thread.

[SithLordExarKun]

Terror_K wrote...
Its overly streamlined and overly simplified, so I think that qualifies as "dumbing down". A lot of fans would complain that while BioWare heard what was said, they failed to actually listen. Many fans wanted the broken stuff fixed in ME1, and the definition of "fixing" something isn't "scrap entirely and replace half of it with simplistic and shallow mechanics and the other half with nothing." If BioWare had actually listened to the fans, they wouldn't have binned half of ME1's stuff and called the solutions to its problems the elimination of the factors involved entirely. That's not solving the problem, that's running away from it and just ignoring it entirely and saying its no longer a problem because its no longer there at all. It's like trying to avoid getting a flat tyre by taking the wheels off your car.

So if i "scrap and cut off a tumor" it means i am running away from it and not fixing the problem? Yes, the inventory system from the first game IS that horrible, it felt more like a useless trash vendor than an actual inventory with hordes of useless items piling up.

They "binned" half of ME1's stuff because most of it was useless with the exception of exploration which is one thing i dislike in ME2.
In fact unlike what you're claiming, they didn't scrap everything, they did improve the AI, they did improve the shooter mechanics. ME was never meant to be a pure RPG but a RPG/TPS hybrid.

RPG fans like you should stop thinking you're entitled to everything, seriously.

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 04 avril 2010 - 11:05 .

[Terror_K]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

So basically you're saying  that anybody who likes those games and likes ME2 is an idiot.

This is the kind of elitism from RPG players i am sick and tired of seeing. I don't know how playing a more "complex" game with an inventory system makes you look any more intelligent than the ones that enjoy shooter games.

Oh, I was wondering when this annoying little buzzword would pop up again. A little slower than I expected, actually. Seems to be a favourite little piece of hypocrisy thrown at any RPG fan who dares to want some depth in their games and who would dare sneer at the mighty Mass Effect 2 for not having d20 dice rolls, novels of inventory and turn-based combat, etc., because that's apparently what all "RPG Elitist Snobs" want. Yes... we're all arrogant elitists because we speak out against the titan of games that is Mass Effect 2 with its roleplaying perfection, and that we dare decry shooters or those who would even dare look at them with anything less than utter contempt and want to burn Cliffy B at the stake. We, the Elitist Snobs, fully admit this, for this is what we are, and we're damn proud of it!

Should I keep going, or has the point been made?

For your information, i hated the games you have mentioned, Halo sucks since the first one, MW2 was a cash cow rip off of COD4 and queers of war is reletively uninteresting. I hardly enjoy FPS, in fact the only one ever worth playing is BC2 and i prefer games like DAO,Kotor over the majority of FPS.

And for your information I love to play and own the likes of Unreal Tournament, Team Fortress 2, CoD4, Half-Life 2, Quake III Arena, Battlefield 2, and, yes, even Gears of War (though I don't really LOVE it... its okay now and then, but the point is I still enjoy it on some level). So... wouldn't I therefore be insulting myself and calling myself an idiot?

Seems the point is lost, which is that Mass Effect 2 is supposed to be an RPG and not a shooter, and is also supposed to be the second part of what should essentially be considered a single game split into thirds. ME2 therefore should stick to its roots and not change so much and become a genre it wasn't originally intended to be just to merely satisfy a new audience and pander to the masses simply because BioWare smells the cash coming in from the big sellers, which are almost always shallow action games these days. That doesn't mean smart people can't enjoy them, but they should at least acknowledge and appreciate the fact that a solid BioWare RPG game (at least up until Mass Effect 2 that is...) is always going to have more complexity and depth and should rightly so. Simply put: most BioWare titles thus far have been very nerdy games made for sci-fi geeks and dice-rollers, etc. Mass Effect 2 on the other hand wasn't, being clearly geared to today's average gamer. Call me elitist (oh wait... never mind, you already have) but today's average gamer isn't quite the same as it was a decade ago.

[SithLordExarKun]

Terror_K wrote...

Oh, I was wondering when this annoying little buzzword would pop up again. A little slower than I expected, actually. Seems to be a favourite little piece of hypocrisy thrown at any RPG fan who dares to want some depth in their games and who would dare sneer at the mighty Mass Effect 2 for not having d20 dice rolls, novels of inventory and turn-based combat, etc., because that's apparently what all "RPG Elitist Snobs" want. Yes... we're all arrogant elitists because we speak out against the titan of games that is Mass Effect 2 with its roleplaying perfection, and that we dare decry shooters or those who would even dare look at them with anything less than utter contempt and want to burn Cliffy B at the stake. We, the Elitist Snobs, fully admit this, for this is what we are, and we're damn proud of it!

Should I keep going, or has the point been made?

I am not even going to bother responding to such an unecessary sarcastic rant that has no relevance to this debate.

Instead of answering my question, you just had to go on.

Terror_K wrote...
And for your information I love to play and own the likes of Unreal Tournament, Team Fortress 2, CoD4, Half-Life 2, Quake III Arena, Battlefield 2, and, yes, even Gears of War (though I don't really LOVE it... its okay now and then, but the point is I still enjoy it on some level). So... wouldn't I therefore be insulting myself and calling myself an idiot?

If what you're implying is true, yes.

Terror_K wrote...
Seems the point is lost, which is that Mass Effect 2 is supposed to be an RPG and not a shooter, and is also supposed to be the second part of what should essentially be considered a single game split into thirds. ME2 therefore should stick to its roots and not change so much and become a genre it wasn't originally intended to be just to merely satisfy a new audience and pander to the masses simply because BioWare smells the cash coming in from the big sellers, which are almost always shallow action games these days. That doesn't mean smart people can't enjoy them, but they should at least acknowledge and appreciate the fact that a solid BioWare RPG game (at least up until Mass Effect 2 that is...) is always going to have more complexity and depth and should rightly so. Simply put: most BioWare titles thus far have been very nerdy games made for sci-fi geeks and dice-rollers, etc. Mass Effect 2 on the other hand wasn't, being clearly geared to today's average gamer. Call me elitist (oh wait... never mind, you already have) but today's average gamer isn't quite the same as it was a decade ago.

You DO know Mass Effect wasn't ever intended to be a pure RPG but a hybrid of RPG/TPS?  This alone makes your entire point moot.

Then again, i would appreciate if you substantiate how ME2 is supposedly less of an RPG than ME1 is.

[Terror_K]

SithLordExarKun wrote...

So if i "scrap and cut off a tumor" it means i am running away from it and not fixing the problem? Yes, the inventory system from the first game IS that horrible, it felt more like a useless trash vendor than an actual inventory with hordes of useless items piling up.

You exaggerate. And the problem wasn't the inventory system, but the inventory itself. If the items were better integrated and better balanced, then they wouldn't be a problem. But it seems that everything is black and white when it comes to the inventory system in the eyes of those who approve of its removal: it was either the ME1 way, or the ME2 way (i.e. out the door). There's certainly no other way to do inventory. There can't be... no other game in the history of the universe has even managed to pull off an inventory system. It's a wonder they didn't die in 1986!

They "binned" half of ME1's stuff because most of it was useless with the exception of exploration which is one thing i dislike in ME2.

I disagree. Well, except for the exploration part, 'cause I miss that too. There's nothing in ME1 I didn't like the concept of, even if I thought it could have been done better. I'll even admit that I could accept the new way of handling weapons and inventory if they didn't make the inventory itself so lacking in customisation and depth. Needs more stuff... needs the ability to mod it again, and needs some friggin' visible stats. At the moment CoD4 and Hitman Blood Money have more equipment customisation options, and they aren't even RPGs, or even that new any more. I'm a Mako fan, so I don't think I need to say any more on that. The Hammerhead sucks and just proves to me BioWare have missed the point and haven't listened to several key complaints from fans, and the N7 missions, while more original, are lacking in polish and proper integration compared to the UNC equivalents.

In fact unlike what you're claiming, they didn't scrap everything, they did improve the AI, they did improve the shooter mechanics. ME was never meant to be a pure RPG but a RPG/TPS hybrid.

Yes... an RPG/TPS hybrid. Not a TPS with a few little RPG factors thrown in to attempt placate old fans.

RPG fans like you should stop thinking you're entitled to everything, seriously.

RPG fans like me simply want some depth to their RPG's and not just a shooter with some level-up options and that's pretty much it. Oh wait... I can also make my armour pretty. Forgot that one.

[SithLordExarKun]

Terror_K wrote...



You exaggerate. And the problem wasn't the inventory system, but the inventory itself. If the items were better integrated and better balanced, then they wouldn't be a problem. But it seems that everything is black and white when it comes to the inventory system in the eyes of those who approve of its removal: it was either the ME1 way, or the ME2 way (i.e. out the door). There's certainly no other way to do inventory. There can't be... no other game in the history of the universe has even managed to pull off an inventory system. It's a wonder they didn't die in 1986!

How exactly is it better intergrated with tons of useless items that you need to keep converting to omnigel or dispose off everytime it clogs your inventory?

Terror_K wrote...

I disagree. Well, except for the exploration part, 'cause I miss that too. There's nothing in ME1 I didn't like the concept of, even if I thought it could have been done better. I'll even admit that I could accept the new way of handling weapons and inventory if they didn't make the inventory itself so lacking in customisation and depth.

Wait a minute. So modifying a piece of armor with a mod that hardly makes any difference equates to it having great custamisation and depth?

Face it, armour in ME1 sucked. You had 10 tiers with each level only slightly better than the one before it. Phoenix III, IV, V, etc. And 2 slots for generic passive bonuses that don't much difference the game the game. AND your inventory quickly fills up with useless trash that you need to get rid off(especially when your level is higher and all the lower tier materials remain).



How is that a good gameplay mechanic? I'm glad the dropped it in favour of a research system, where you pick up gun schematics and replicate the guns in your armoury. It was an annoyance to constantly sell stuff in
the
old game or convert them to omnigel which then again gets useless when you reac the 999 limit.

Terror_K wrote...
Needs more stuff... needs the ability to mod it again, and needs some friggin' visible stats.

See the above. Quality > Quantity.

Terror_K wrote...
At the moment CoD4 and Hitman Blood Money have more equipment customisation options, and they aren't even RPGs, or even that new any more.

Yet unlike ME1(or2), these customisation actually DO make a big difference as opposed to barely any difference in the useless customisation in ME1.

Terror_K wrote...
  the N7 missions, while more original, are lacking in polish and proper integration compared to the UNC equivalents.

The original UNC missions also lacked in polish with their lazy cut and paste generic pirate bases. Better intergrated? Yes, but it is far from superior to the N7 missions.

The N7 missions are better varied unlike entering the same old generic pirate bases shooting the same retarded AI that charges towards you like a zombie.

Still, the best of both would be better.

Terror_K wrote...
Yes... an RPG/TPS hybrid. Not a TPS with a few little RPG factors thrown in to attempt placate old fans.

Again, how is ME2 less of an RPG than ME1?

Terror_K wrote...
RPG fans like me simply want some depth to their RPG's and not just a shooter with some level-up options and that's pretty much it. Oh wait... I can also make my armour pretty. Forgot that one.

Once again i don't know how does collecting hundreds of non essential useless mods and items that barely makes any difference adds depth to a game.

Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 04 avril 2010 - 11:41 .