369 réponses à ce sujet

[Kalak]

Okay, so whoever raised the point earlier that Liara is basically the only ME squad member (1 or 2) who cannot die is on to something.....especially factoring in her uber-creepy personality shift in the second game.



I see it as possibly being a conditional betrayal, kind of like [SPOILER ALERT] what can happen with Wrex on Virmire (only significantly more epic this time around). For instance what if Liara gets intel on where the Shadow Broker is, and when you go to take him out, he reveals that he has some extremely helpful info on how to stop the Reapers, but he'll only share it with you if you don't turn his face into hamburger meat with your shotgun. Given Liara's disturbing new fixation with vengeance, if you agree to spare Shadow Broker, she may totally lose it, leading to a crazy fight against your own teammate.



Only speculation, of course, but it sounds more believable than the Garrus-as-traitor talk.

[Kalak]

Sturmwulfe wrote...

For anyone thinking our krogan, I'm inclined to think of them as potentially the MOST loyal. Wrex (provided he survives ME1) is able to become one of, if not the most, powerful krogan warlord and is working at united the various tribes to build their strength. Shepard's done more for Wrex than anyone else alive, and I have no doubt in my mind Wrex would have dropped everything to go with Shepard in ME2 if he didn't feel what he was doing was so important.

Grunt is loyal to Shepard, going so far as saying, "Shepard is my Battlemaster. He has no equal.". Shepard gave Grunt a purpose for living, and a clan to return to. For all intents and purposes, Shepard gave Grunt a life.

A very good point......the krogan sense of honor, combined with what Shep does for Grunt and Wrex on a personal level, makes them among the most loyal squaddies you can have in the game.

[Kalak]

Whoever it is, the Biotic God will wreak a just revenge upon their people

[Lethias]

Hmm i like the OP's point about Garrus. I feel like he tried to be like Shepard but he wasn't really succesfull, and he is a good friend to Shepard, and also a good man, so a betrayal from him would be very surprising. But the fact that he can die during ME2 can question this ofc...

[Sturmwulfe]

Kalak wrote...

Sturmwulfe wrote...

For anyone thinking our krogan, I'm inclined to think of them as potentially the MOST loyal. Wrex (provided he survives ME1) is able to become one of, if not the most, powerful krogan warlord and is working at united the various tribes to build their strength. Shepard's done more for Wrex than anyone else alive, and I have no doubt in my mind Wrex would have dropped everything to go with Shepard in ME2 if he didn't feel what he was doing was so important.

Grunt is loyal to Shepard, going so far as saying, "Shepard is my Battlemaster. He has no equal.". Shepard gave Grunt a purpose for living, and a clan to return to. For all intents and purposes, Shepard gave Grunt a life.

A very good point......the krogan sense of honor, combined with what Shep does for Grunt and Wrex on a personal level, makes them among the most loyal squaddies you can have in the game.

I think a lot of people take krogan at face value as violent, remoseless brutes. The codec (which was written by concil races, I might add) even states, to paraphrase "Krogans are neither surprised nor offended by treachery" and other vast assumptions. I think Wrex proved that incorrect as a blanket statement, unless you convince him otherwise, his reaction to Shepard blowing up the Genophage cure is pretty emotion driven.

I think, like the geth, krogan aren't well understood. Sure, they're hostile to outsiders, but you would be too if the people who brought your people to the intergalactic community used you for a massive war against the Rachni, and then sterilized the entire species when they tried to colonize other worlds, even inhabited ones. Keep in mind, it's exactly what Mordin said; the species just wasn't ready to leave their planet yet. They weren't 'mature' enough, for a lack of better term.

I think the reason krogans act the way they do now is because a lot of them have given up hope of their species long term survival. Much like Thane talking about the fate of the Drell, even an advanced species can turn to unspeakable acts of cruelty out of desparation. Just look at our own human history, when times were desparate enough or we were spurred into doing horrible acts, we've been an unbelievably destructive species. Someone may point out the krogans destroyed their planet by nuclear war. Don't forget how close we were to doing that during the Cold War.  One incident resolved the wrong way, and we'd be exactly like the krogan are.

On my visit to Tuchanka, I enjoyed listening to the various krogan talk, especially the one wanting to see the Citadel and his friend telling him he's a hopeless dreamer, and the other two celebrating the one having a son. I think Wrex has proven that they aren't all what they seem. Grunt's only irrationally violent because a huge portion of his time in the tube, Okeer showed him images of war and cruelty. He's still trying to make sense of everything, and violence is something tangable he can make sense of.

It would not surprise me at all, with a paragon path in ME3 that if you told Mordin to save the Genophage modification data, he'd develop the cure and with the krogan help defeating the Reapers, they're given representation back on the Citadel with Wrex and like-minded krogan keeping the species in line. By the time it would take for them to recover their population numbers, I think they'd understand how the galactic community works.

[darknoon5]

The only possible traitor could be the virmire survivor for me. I cannot imagine Garrus getting jealous
of Shepard and ratting him out (plus it'd be Sidonis-esque), Jack going pyscho etc. Liara wouldn't have spend so much time helping Shepard to betray him. Samara could be a viable option, but only for an extreme renegade, which often kill her anyway.

A betrayal would be lame, anyways.

Modifié par darknoon5, 02 avril 2010 - 09:18 .

[Kalak]

Sturmwulfe wrote...

Kalak wrote...

Sturmwulfe wrote...

For anyone thinking our krogan, I'm inclined to think of them as potentially the MOST loyal. Wrex (provided he survives ME1) is able to become one of, if not the most, powerful krogan warlord and is working at united the various tribes to build their strength. Shepard's done more for Wrex than anyone else alive, and I have no doubt in my mind Wrex would have dropped everything to go with Shepard in ME2 if he didn't feel what he was doing was so important.

Grunt is loyal to Shepard, going so far as saying, "Shepard is my Battlemaster. He has no equal.". Shepard gave Grunt a purpose for living, and a clan to return to. For all intents and purposes, Shepard gave Grunt a life.

A very good point......the krogan sense of honor, combined with what Shep does for Grunt and Wrex on a personal level, makes them among the most loyal squaddies you can have in the game.

I think a lot of people take krogan at face value as violent, remoseless brutes. The codec (which was written by concil races, I might add) even states, to paraphrase "Krogans are neither surprised nor offended by treachery" and other vast assumptions. I think Wrex proved that incorrect as a blanket statement, unless you convince him otherwise, his reaction to Shepard blowing up the Genophage cure is pretty emotion driven.

I think, like the geth, krogan aren't well understood. Sure, they're hostile to outsiders, but you would be too if the people who brought your people to the intergalactic community used you for a massive war against the Rachni, and then sterilized the entire species when they tried to colonize other worlds, even inhabited ones. Keep in mind, it's exactly what Mordin said; the species just wasn't ready to leave their planet yet. They weren't 'mature' enough, for a lack of better term.

I think the reason krogans act the way they do now is because a lot of them have given up hope of their species long term survival. Much like Thane talking about the fate of the Drell, even an advanced species can turn to unspeakable acts of cruelty out of desparation. Just look at our own human history, when times were desparate enough or we were spurred into doing horrible acts, we've been an unbelievably destructive species. Someone may point out the krogans destroyed their planet by nuclear war. Don't forget how close we were to doing that during the Cold War.  One incident resolved the wrong way, and we'd be exactly like the krogan are.

On my visit to Tuchanka, I enjoyed listening to the various krogan talk, especially the one wanting to see the Citadel and his friend telling him he's a hopeless dreamer, and the other two celebrating the one having a son. I think Wrex has proven that they aren't all what they seem. Grunt's only irrationally violent because a huge portion of his time in the tube, Okeer showed him images of war and cruelty. He's still trying to make sense of everything, and violence is something tangable he can make sense of.

It would not surprise me at all, with a paragon path in ME3 that if you told Mordin to save the Genophage modification data, he'd develop the cure and with the krogan help defeating the Reapers, they're given representation back on the Citadel with Wrex and like-minded krogan keeping the species in line. By the time it would take for them to recover their population numbers, I think they'd understand how the galactic community works.

Damn, Sturmwulfe, that's perhaps the best summary of the krogan I've seen on these forums....and you're absolutely right about krogan behavior being dictated (in part) because of the species' apparent lack of a future.  Wrex says as much in one of his shipboard covnersations with Shepard, if I recall correctly.

Come to think of it, the Council's codex entry about krogan never being surprised by treachery is completely wrong....Wrex proves it not only on Virmire, but also when his followers get annihilated by Jarrod's forces during the Crush.

Man, I would love to see Bioware come up with a storyline where Mordin and Wrex work together to undo the genophage....they were two of the best-written characters in the franchise, IMO, and the genophage's effects on the krogan was absolutely central to each of their plots.

[TAK The Voyager]

Honestly, I can't see Garrus a Traitor, but I can see someone like Miranda.

TAK

Modifié par TAK The Voyager, 02 avril 2010 - 09:29 .

[Kalak]

slimgrin wrote...

darknoon5 wrote...

The only possible traitor could be the virmire survivor for me. I cannot imagine Garrus getting jealous
of Shepard and ratting him out (plus it'd be Sidonis-esque), Jack going pyscho etc. Liara wouldn't have spend so much time helping Shepard to betray him. Samara could be a viable option, but only for an extreme renegade, which often kill her anyway.

A betrayal would be lame, anyways.

A betrayal could be a great story element for ME3. And I see Samara as a potential conflict, but not a betrayer. Her code would prevent that type of action. Liara on the other hand has changed. She has no code, only a creepy mother...

Yeah, Samara might have issues with Shep, but I doubt she'd try to pop a cap in his ass as soon as his back was turned, a la Saren and Nihlus......her code would probably dictate that she give him advance warning of her intentions, or at least a sporting chance.  

[Sensei Wuzi]

Major Truth wrote...

Most Likely:

* Liara - For me something just isn't right with her. From historian to information dealer their seems to be a huge change in her character from ME1 to ME2. Also the fact that she is a "pure blood" leaves the door open for an Ardat - Yakshi storyline

I strongly disagree with this. If you have read the Mass Effect: Redemption you will know she is one of the most loyal squad mates in the game.

[JazmanX]

Shepard has the magical power of charisma! Those he charms won't betray him. He's like a reaper except less tentacles and genocide (unless your renegade).

[Peppard]

I could see a betrayal that occurs b/c of indoctrination or b/c you cross someone (changing LI's), but speculating about a betrayal b/c of default personality is pointless, b/c the characters can change a lot based on the choices the player makes. First, some characters may not be alive. Second, some may hate your Shepard,but be in love with someone else's. So your character "logic" doesn't work as easily if you forget how that figures in.

[bcraig3]

My thoughts are that maybe one character will be indoctrined and you will be forced to kill them. This would remove the need for BioWare to worry about which characters survived the suicide mission and which did not, it could simply be one member of your Shepard's squad. All I know is that being forced to kill a friend under the control of the Reapers would add much more drama to the experience than gunning down someone who betrays you under their own power.

Modifié par bcraig3, 02 avril 2010 - 11:53 .

[Sturmwulfe]

Kalak wrote...

Damn, Sturmwulfe, that's perhaps the best summary of the krogan I've seen on these forums....and you're absolutely right about krogan behavior being dictated (in part) because of the species' apparent lack of a future.  Wrex says as much in one of his shipboard covnersations with Shepard, if I recall correctly.

Come to think of it, the Council's codex entry about krogan never being surprised by treachery is completely wrong....Wrex proves it not only on Virmire, but also when his followers get annihilated by Jarrod's forces during the Crush.

Man, I would love to see Bioware come up with a storyline where Mordin and Wrex work together to undo the genophage....they were two of the best-written characters in the franchise, IMO, and the genophage's effects on the krogan was absolutely central to each of their plots.

That is a perfect example, Kalak. The Crush is supposed to be as close to a sacred thing for krogans, and Wrex's own father trying to kill him, well that's just the cream of the crop. And Wrex does tell Shepard that he didn't go back to Tuchanka and the reason he took up being a mercenary, along with many other krogan leaving the krogan DMZ, is that they don't see a future because of the genophage.

I'd love to see that too. I think it would go a long way in starting to build a path of trust and recovery between the salarians and krogan if Mordin agreed to help Wrex. I really have to agree, the writing for both of those characters was fantastic. They really had some depth. I think this will be the case, as I think Mass Effect 3 will revolve around trying to get the different races to join together to fight the reapers as a unified galaxy, which is something the Reapers never encountered before.

[Mr. Sniper Rifle]

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that save games keep track of who you use in missions. I hope the loyalty of characters is not based on whether I took them with me on a side mission.

Look at it this way:

[sounds of gunfire/biotics/tech attack]
[Cut to Shepard, propped up against a crate in the Normandy's cargo bay, hands clamped over a bloody wound in his/her N7 armor, blood streaming from a more then likely fatal gut wound.  (Insert character name here) has a pistol/biotic attack/blunt object aimed at the commander's head]
Sheppard: "Why (insert character name here)? Why would you betray me? You trusted me, I even helped you (work out your father issues/dealt with your deep phycosis/blow up that thing)."
ICNH: "Remember that mission where you went to that foggy planet with the fire breathing insects and the vorcha?"
Shepard: "Y-yeah bu-"
ICNH:"I wanted to go on that mission. Not taking me filled me with
rage/sadness that drove me to betray you to the Reapers! Die!
[ICNH shoots/biotic blasts/ bludgeons Shepard to death.

Modifié par Mr. Sniper Rifle, 03 avril 2010 - 05:27 .

[thedoncarnage]

I would love to see a massive betrayal in Mass Effect 3, and as the OP mentioned there are lots of potential reasons to exploit. Even some of the "least likely" candidates have their own reasons. Tali, for example, could find herself in a situation where she has to choose between supporting a Quarian war with the Geth or helping the Geth in the name of greater galactic stability.



Or, any squaddie could potentially become indoctrinated over time given all the exposure they've had to Reaper tech over the last few games.



But alas, I doubt there will be any betrayals in ME3 because Bioware is afraid of alienating players. Some members of the fan base have become so entirely devoted to certain characters (especially love interests) that if one of those characters were portrayed in a bad light they would go berserk.

[Darth Drago]

Read through this and have to say there certainly are a lot of interesting ideas.

IF there is a betrayer it will likely be someone you least expect, well hopefully if its written right. It also has to be someone who survives both ME1 and ME2. With just that variable alone that gets rid of everyone on the Normandy 2 completely except Joker and EDI since everyone else can die on the mission.

The only choices left are:
Ashley/Kaiden, Liara, Joker, EDI, The Illusive Man, Anderson or Udina.

Anderson, Udina, The Illusive Man and Joker are out mainly because of their hard line beliefs. Anderson and Udina while at each others throats are like minded in the belief that the Reapers must be stopped. The Illusive Man invested to much money and time in Shepard’s quest to throw it all away even if you went against his wishes at the end of ME2. Deep down he probably will realize that your decision was the right one. Joker just isn’t the type to go turncoat either. EDI is considered by some but is also not likely. I believe the blocked secret programs are just Cerberus backdoors to track the Normandy, its crew and to kill EDI itself if it turned into a rogue AI.

That leaves 3, well 2 actually. Liara is possible but I don’t see it since she has her own agenda to get the Shadow Broker and find out about or rescue her friend. She also has intimate knowledge about the Reapers from sharing your visions.

This will be tough to explain with out Spoilers…
That only leaves Ashley/Kaiden. The whole thing I believe, will likely come down to what we didn’t see on Horizon. Was it really luck that they got left behind? The colonist Lilith who was talking to them was captured and she was stunned not to far away. If you went to the final battle location shortly after your suggested to go, you know what happens to her. Also keep in mind why the bad guys hit that planet in the first place and what Harbinger can do and does so often.

Anyone remember what happened to Bastila Shan in Knight of the Old Republic? I could see something similar happening.

Modifié par Darth Drago, 03 avril 2010 - 06:23 .

[petipas1414]

I could see characters LEAVING (they do that in DA right?) , but as people already pointed out... outside of indoctrination, I don't see this to be feasible



Afterthought: If the persons not loyal, they wont follow you... but then again... they know what's at stake. I really just couldn't see anyone who could possibly make a difference betray shepard. Unless TiM pulls a fast one... uses reaper tech to indoctrinate a la Meryl via Psycho mantis in MGS1!!! But you'd save the character in this case as well ))

[binaryemperor]

 The only possible betrayal I could see would be if somebody got indoctrinated, which would be a LOT more emotionally impacting than some stupid forced betrayal scene.

Commander Shepard: Essentially the only hope for the survival of every sentient race in the galaxy and the end of the Reaper cycle.

His Betrayer: A total invalid incapable of cause-effect thinking, "If I kill this guy, he won't be able to stop the Reapers. If the Reapers are not stopped, everyone -including me- is fracked."

Yeah, no.

Indoctrination. It's a perfect stand-in for betrayal, and completely relevant to the story.

[petipas1414]

If someone gets indoctrinated i really want to be able to save them though



having a potential LI die while others dont is just lame to me

[RyrineaNara]

I'll agree with the people that says the only betrayer I could actually see, and believe is somebody being indoctrinated somehow by the reapers It would feel stupid, if someone would betray you, because there jealous of you.

Modifié par RyrineaNara, 03 avril 2010 - 06:41 .

[Dougdh]

Those thinking squad mates won't betray because it'd be a "gut punch": That is exactly why bioware would make them betray you. Because it would hurt. Emotional involvement. "Why would you do this to me Tali?! I loved you!" <------That's what I'm talkin' bout.