369 réponses à ce sujet

[smudboy]

Majinfefnir13 wrote...

Nizzemancer wrote...

Dick Delaware wrote...

Why the hell would there be a betrayal arc in the first place? Unless there's some sort of basis for it, adding in a betrayal arc just for the sake of an OMGplottwist moment is stupid.

I am so happy The Illusive Man didn't turn out to be some sort of Reaper agent. God, that would have been retarded.

This...What is with all the tragedy-junkies on here?

"Bioware you need to make the final mission self-sacrificing"
"Bioware you need to kill off the LI in ME3"
"Bioware you need to have someone betray Shepard"
"Bioware you need to make the last mission impossible to beat so the entire galaxy is killed"

Stop it already...Some people here are on a bad emo-trip and should stop posting.

Tragedy makes the story interesting I guess...

Also some people made a good points about the possibilty of betrayal from Tali and it would make things interesting to those who romanced her(me included:whistle:).

Anyways, I think the Alliance(with Kaiden/Ashley) along with some of humanity will betray me because they would believe I'm just a insane rogue soldier who going to ruin everything that humanity has accomplished for themselves.

As for the bolded:
-Sacrificing myself to kill the reaper armada sound cool for a Paragon ending...imo... :innocent:
-killing LIs...depends...
-as mentioned above, it makes things interesting

You know what also makes a story interesting?  Believable, non-contrived plot twists.  And just about any kind of good writing makes a story "interesting" (God, that's the most generic descriptor.)

Betrayal is one of the most obvious and cliched character behaviors...in almost all types of stories.  Why would anyone betray Cyber Jesus, the saviour of the galaxy, Citadel, and now humanity?  The guy is still risking his entire life to save the galaxy.  Anyone who meets Shepard sees them as some kind of walking alturistic legend, either a caring, mediation guru or a terrifying badass.  In either light, this is not someone you want to screw over.

ME is not a spy novel, not some legal drama, not some zero-sum war where allegiances may be bought or sold because the enemy has a better offer.  The enemy's goal is to wipe out all life.  Everyone on board knows this (Or at least the Collectors) and trusts Shepard for various personal reasons.

Also keep in mind, ME is not structured with main characters to constitute betrayal.  It would be like Bilbo Baggins betraying Frodo, or Han Solo betraying Princess Leia.  Even Tali, with overly protective and personal motives toward her people and reclaiming her homeworld, wouldn't risk the entire universe when given the choice of trusting the one person she belives the strongest in.  1) She would never desire such an act, 2) She knows what happens to Shepard's enemies, 3) What could possibly be worth it considering the alternative?, and most importantly, 4) It's not part of her character.  Even Zaeed, the massive jerk he is, wouldn't dream of going up against Shepard.  He'd go separate ways after his contract is done, but he damn well wouldn't try to attack Shepard in another contract for whatever reason.

[trigger2kill1]

Grunt, Wrex ... Not likely they seem to have that old school samurai type loyalty They would likely shoot you in the face but never in the back.



Miranda, Jacob ... Too obvious. Same goes for the rest of Cerberus. It all is simply too easy.



Goto ... Not enough information about her to make sense.



Thane ... Again not likely he is to logical for that sort of thing.



Ashley, Kaiden ... If ordered I could see it but doubtful. Alliance and council are ignorant but not stupid.



Jack ... Once again would much rather shoot you in the face than shoot you in the back so not likely too obvious.



Liara ... Possible but I still think that we are missing some info here. She seems to have an agenda I'll grant you still...



Mordin, Joker/EDI ... They could certainly pull it off though I don't see a motive.



Legion ... That would ... no, not likely. I think that he has the power to do that sort of thing but I figure it has more to gain by sticking to the plan of bringing them all toGETHer.



Garrus ... I can see how he could think that Shep is betteer at being "him" than he is. Though I think that he is a genuine friend to Shep and the cause.



Tali ... I can see it happen she gets brain washed as a sleeper implanted in the crew as a last resort. The bad guys rarely ever play fair. Though to be honest this plot device could be used on any and/or all of the crew members.

[Major Truth]

I find it astounding at how many people are working their way up onto ther high horses claiming that a betrayel would be impossible due to x,y and z - and then using logic, the galaxys well being etc as an argument



Just a couple of points:



If you look at what happens Shephard in the first 10 minutes of ME2, can you tell me thats logical? If someone came onto forums after ME1 and said that was what would happen they would have been laughed out of it



Secondly saying that it is illogical to betray Shephard as he is trying to save the galaxy is riddiculous. Since when are all humans (or living brething people) logical? Are people saying that these characters are unable to make mistakes due to emotional trauma? - Logic actually dictates otherwise - human history is littered with betrayals and trechery

[Massadonious1]

Happy endings are more contrived than any with a hint of tragedy in them.



Face it, people don't want their LI's to die because they are concerned about the story. People want to see a epilogue blurb or cutscene showing Shep and their LI getting married on the Citadel.



No thanks. I'd prefer any of my romance options to take rockets to the face before I take any cheesy Disney ending.

[Vardel]

Collider wrote...

Vardel wrote...

Collider wrote...

There is NO way to make the hostile Geth stronger in Mass Effect 2. There's no reason why Tali would betray Shepard unless there is a way to help hostile Geth in ME3. When Samara says that she will go after Shepard if Shepard is renegade, saying that Tali is the most likely to betray is incredibly laughable.

Tali gets mad when you rewrite the geth. She says so once her argument with Legion is triggered. At that point you can lose her loyalty. If the Quarians go to war with the geth, who are now more numerous since the rewrite of the Heretics, the Quarians will get wiped out. Who do you think Tali will blame?

That doesn't even make sense, Vardel. Shepard did not make the heretics hostile in the first place. The geth would not be MORE numerous BECAUSE of the rewrite. The rewrite doesn't strengthen the Heretic geth ffs, rofl. All it does is put a virus in the system that influences the Heretic Geth towards peace with organics.  This is HELPING the Quarians AGAINST the Geth. It's not very hard to understand.

You also seem to ignore my point about Samara, who literally says she will go after Shepard if he acts in ways she doesn't like. Do you STILL think that Tali is most likely? Honestly. Thinking Tali would betray Shepard because he rewrote the Geth is RETARDED.

Sigh. Shepard did not turn the Heretics into peaceful Geth. The rewrite made them stop following the Reapers and rejoin the rest of the Geth collective. I never once said Shepard made the Geth more aggressive. But the Quarians don't seem to want peace for the most part. They just want their homeworld back and they see the Geth as their enemies. If the Quarians attempt to retake their homeworld through war, they will be fighting a larger force if Shepard rewrote the Heretic Geth. Tali says so herself after you choose to rewrite them. In fact, I believe she specifically says that Shepard made it harder to retake their homeworld.

I find it amusing that you choose to insult me and claim that this situation isn't hard to understand, when you yourself do not understand what rewriting the Heretics did. If retort includes any all CAP insults I will ignore it and report you. No reason to have a flame war because we have a difference of opinion.

As for Samara, you are right. She does say that she may have to come after Renegade Shepard. That means, she can't betray you because she clearly states her intentions. Betrayal comes from someone you truly thought was loyal to you. And even if you gain Samara's loyalty, it only last until the mission is over. And that mission is attacking the Collector base. Once that mission is done Samara's oath is fulfilled and there is no reason to believe that she would stay on the team with Renegade Shepard. Betrayal comes from someone close to you and without warning. Samara gave clear warning, so even if she went against Renegade Shepard in ME 3, I wouldn't see it as a betrayal.

[screwoffreg]

Massadonious1 wrote...

Happy endings are more contrived than any with a hint of tragedy in them.

Face it, people don't want their LI's to die because they are concerned about the story. People want to see a epilogue blurb or cutscene showing Shep and their LI getting married on the Citadel.

No thanks. I'd prefer any of my romance options to take rockets to the face before I take any cheesy Disney ending.

Bioware has never done Disney endings, but there are always options for a "sweet" ending based on the characters personality.  I can see Liara and Tali getting sweetness endings, for example.  The others may depend on choices you make.

In Baldurs Gate II you could turn the dark elf Viconia into a good character, but even at the end you have a child but she is murdered anyway...and you and your son go into the Underdark and murder hordes of drow in her name.  Not a Disney ending 

[Xaijin]

No cliches, please.

[Massadonious1]

screwoffreg wrote...

Massadonious1 wrote...

Happy endings are more contrived than any with a hint of tragedy in them.

Face it, people don't want their LI's to die because they are concerned about the story. People want to see a epilogue blurb or cutscene showing Shep and their LI getting married on the Citadel.

No thanks. I'd prefer any of my romance options to take rockets to the face before I take any cheesy Disney ending.

Bioware has never done Disney endings, but there are always options for a "sweet" ending based on the characters personality.  I can see Liara and Tali getting sweetness endings, for example.  The others may depend on choices you make.

In Baldurs Gate II you could turn the dark elf Viconia into a good character, but even at the end you have a child but she is murdered anyway...and you and your son go into the Underdark and murder hordes of drow in her name.  Not a Disney ending 

Yeah, I remember that. Heartbreaking.

I just get this nagging feeling people have less than alturistic motives when it comes to things like this. If they can make a compelling end to ME3 without the drama, then so be it. I'm just worried BioWare will kotow to fanservice to spite the story.

[Collider]

Vardel wrote...
Sigh. Shepard did not turn the Heretics into peaceful Geth. The rewrite made them stop following the Reapers and rejoin the rest of the Geth collective.

I did not say it made them peaceful. I said it influences them towards peace, by making them join the main geth and

I never once said Shepard made the Geth more aggressive. But the Quarians don't seem to want peace for the most part. They just want their homeworld back and they see the Geth as their enemies. If the Quarians attempt to retake their homeworld through war, they will be fighting a larger force if Shepard rewrote the Heretic Geth. Tali says so herself after you choose to rewrite them. In fact, I believe she specifically says that Shepard made it harder to retake their homeworld.

The problem is how that equates to Tali being the most likely to betray you. Nothing will be gained from betraying Shepard because he rewrote the Heretics. Tali does not have the means to do so as the other squad mates have, she is not a fighter nor does she have any true pool over the Admiralty Board, especially after how much they have used her for their own political  agendas.

Not only this, but betrayal hinging upon this single choice is even less fathomable to equate to most likely.

I find it amusing that you choose to insult me

I never insulted you, and if I did, I didn't mean to. I disagree with your argument, but I don't have any hard feelings towards you. If that was the impression you had of me, I apologize.

As for Samara, you are right. She does say that she may have to come after Renegade Shepard. That means, she can't betray you because she clearly states her intentions. Betrayal comes from someone you truly thought was loyal to you.

This is quite false. You may have had that definition of betrayal in mind when you wrote what you wrote, but betrayal does not need to hinge upon the suspicision of the person who is being betrayed. Literally.
The very fact that Samara once had his loyalty and then would break it and attack or act against Shepard is betrayal.

You can add all kinds of unneeded conditionals to the word betrayal all you want, but they are as I said unneeded. You should have defined your interpretation of betrayal because it simply does not add up to what is in the dictionary.

Modifié par Collider, 06 avril 2010 - 07:11 .

[jkflipflopDAO]

I don't think it's even possible. The "import" for ME3 for total suicide is to have no save game. Hence, the "default" beginning for ME3 would talk about Shep's heroic suicide mission where he gave his own life and that of his crew to stop the collectors. Your Shepard, and everyone on his team is dead.

[pointtech86]

 Let's get back on topic people.  Theories on whether the Geth rewrite made them more or less peaceful belong in their own topic.


Okay, let's go through each character and assess the likelihood of their betrayal story plot.


This doesn't include the possibility of indoctrination, which anybody could be subject to.


Starting with ME1 characters:  Ashley, Kaiden, Liara, Garrus, Wrex, and Tali


Wrex:  This would be the most unlikely, and likely betrayal because if you saved the genophage the consequences are clear and would result in him being your biggest ally.  However if you destroyed it and he found out...  I guarantee he'll be after your head especially after Virmire.  Odds:  5/10


Liara:  To me this is one of the most unlikely betrayals.  It would simply make no sense if she were to betray you, even with the suggested Shadow Broker situation which would likely be resolved like on Virmire with Wrex.  Personally I love the Shadow Broker, so if she does betray me over not killing the Shadow Broker, I'll gladly blow a shotgun shell through her face, for the chaos it would bring if he/she/they got taken down, but again it's very unlikely you're not going to be able to work something out between them.  Odds:  1/10.


Ashley/Kaiden:  Basically an interchangeable faceplate/voiceplate story line.  The way both reacted on Horizon this is the perfect choice for a betraying character, not as loved by the fans as Tali or Garrus, but essential to the plot and being one of the first characters introduced.  More-so with Ashley because of her Alliance background than with Kaiden but the devs obviously made them both have the same storyline leading up to ME3.  Odds:  9.5/10


Tali:  This is difficult because there are so many different outcomes this character is given in ME2.  Logically it should be around 6/10, but the amount of storylines she's given makes it very unlikely they'll spend that much time differentiating between the story plot of the character you chose and the main story.  Odds:  .5/10


Garrus:  I LOVE this idea.  Too me this would make a very interesting betrayal if Shepard is given the heroics for defeating the Collectors again after the Citadel battle, makes him jealous of the spotlight he's wanted since leaving C-Sec.  That's what he wanted when he took on the mercs on Omega.  Really all it depends on is Bioware's willingness to put in this gut-wrencher.  Odds:  7/10


Mass Effect 2 characters:  Jacob, Miranda, Mordin, Jack, Grunt, Thane, Tali, Samara, Morinth, Legion, Zaeed, and Kasumi


Jacob:  There's not enough story here to pull off a betrayal that doesn't feel tacked on.  Too little relation to Shepard, just too bland to be a reliable "*gasp*, JACOB betrayed me?  But why?!?!".  Odds 2/10 (due to chance of entire Cerberus crew betraying you, sweeping Jacob into the mix.)


Miranda:  This is difficult.  On one hand I can see how she would betray you but it wouldn't make sense.  Either choice you choose at the end she follows you, and would need your help to rescue her sister (again) if you choose to make her betray TIM.  No reasonable emotional or logical motive to betray you.  Odds:  1/10


Mordin:  Does anybody think a 50 year old Salarian would even be alive by the time the betrayal comes, let alone himself being the traitor?  Guilt from destroying the genophage cure could make things strained, but I believe he's too logical for that to let it get to him.  Odds:  .5/10


Jack:  I don't think you can really call it a betrayal if you sided with Miranda.  It would be more like payback getting in the way of the mission.  If you romanced her she'd be too vulnerable to consider doing anything against Shepard.  She'll probably sulk, but I doubt she'd be so stupid with no ulterior motive, unless her desire to wreck Cerberus from the inside out makes her crazy enough to do something like that.  Odds:  3/10


Grunt:  Same as Wrex, maybe more emotional if Wrex dies in the first game.  All depends on if you saved the genophage cure.  Odds"  4/10 (because there's less emotional attachment to the Krogans than with Wrex).


Thane:  Thane is too ethical to consider doing something like this even if it means he'll be cured of Keplar's disease.  I think he'd prefer to die passively rather than get killed in a fight against Shepard.  Odds:  .5/10


Samara:  I wouldn't put anything past this code of hers.  Destroying the base could be viewed as killing innocent civilians, and saving the base could mean that Shepard is allowing evil too spread by not destroying it.  This code is messing everything up, making her irrational and unpredictable.  Odds: (hell if I know) 50/50.


Morinth is another toss-up.  If she decides to try and seduce Shepard again that could be viewed as betrayal, but I think she'd rather go into the shadows as quickly as possible after the Collector mission.  Odds:  6/10


Legion: This would be interesting.  If you find out he was lying the entire time and instead destroyed or rewrote the last holdouts of the normal Geth to being heretics.  They are sapient, and I don't think machines are incapable of lying.  Odds:  7/10


Zaeed:  To everyone who thinks he'd betray Shepard if the price was big enough by the Reapers, let me remind you.  He's been a very successful Mercenary for now 20 years.  To survive that long in the Terminus systems you have to be smart and have some common sense.  If he accepts this 'contract' who exactly will he cash his check into if the entire galaxy is destroyed?  What will his now useless credits buy?  He may leave the group but there's no way he'd be so stupid as to accept a contract to hunt Shepard down.  Odds:  .5/10  (in case you didn't gain his loyalty and he wants revenge, BEFORE the end battle with the Reapers)


Kasumi:  The DLC hasn't even come out and people are talking about her being the traitor?

Modifié par pointtech86, 06 avril 2010 - 10:08 .

[Unit-Alpha]

@OP: Another Tali fan claiming that Liara will betray Shepard. Moving on here; it's nothing new.

Modifié par Unit-Alpha, 06 avril 2010 - 12:03 .

[varel1]

My opinion, for what it is worth:



Most likely traitor - Liara, I believe she is the "Aribeth" of the ME series, i.e. starts "good", then becomes twisted by thoughts of vengeance to "evil". This would also explain her total personality change from the ME1 to ME2 versions.



Alternative traitor - Grunt - he does have collector/reaper technology in his make-up.



Least likely traitors: Tali, Miranda, Thane and Mordin, not necessarily in that order.

[VampireCommando]

I think that maybe miranda would do it un willingly, even though shes my shepards LI and loyal to him i'm just thinking at the end of my game, she quit cerberus, and they have control of her sister, i'm thinking maybe they could use that to make her get into the catch 22 situation, or make it so she doesnt have a choice, but there will be a way shepard can over come this, like rescue her sister from cerberus with Miri. Also Jack, i mean, yeah shes loyal, but to what end, shes dangerous and unpredictable, she has her eyes set on the normandy and pirating, she is also a criminal, so my money would lie on her but i dont know. People that wouldnt betray shepard, Garus and Wrex, they seem like shepards best friends, as garus says 'ive got your back, regardless' and also joker, he and shepard seem to be great friends, having been through alot together. Samara wouldnt betray shepard, i mean look at the other and her dialouge on how she trusts you. All in all i think the most likely will be cerberus using Miri's sister against her, its the most obvious IMO.

[PARAGON87]

To tell you the truth, I can't see a traitor emerge because ME doesn't have a DA:O loyalty system, possibly if you don't do a loyalty mission in ME3 and you keep treating the character like garbage, I can see them betraying you. If it's someone like Zevran who you can be nice to, but still can betray you unless you are near or are a love interest, then that's just bull.

[SkullandBonesmember]

Major Truth wrote...

I could live with that - out of all the characters I never really cared for Thane. I'd happily shoot him in the head and leave him for dead - and his punk son

Thane was boring but I wouldn't go THAT far! 

ImperialOperative wrote...

Then what was the point of using ME2's resurrection plot device?  What the hell makes Shepard so important to so many people in the fight against the Reapers?  Why was Liara, the Shadow Broker, and Cerberus looking for his remains?

A potential betrayal wouldn't necessarily end with Shepard's death, and it could also happen at the ending too.

Zalocx wrote...

Has to be non-LI, or else that will just be a gut-punch for alot of people.

I can see ME3 ending with Tali betraying my Shepard and the final scene being Tali standing over my Shepard's dead body laughing maniacally.

[nikki191]

kelly - i dont trust her



garrus - undercover spectre operative .. he said he didnt join the spectres, but maybe he actually did

[OverlordNexas]

I imagine any sort of betrayal would be similiar to DA, where characters would give you the finger depending on your choices. For example Tali and Legion will probably play a part the Quarian/Geth conflict in ME3. If you choose one side over the other than they will act accordingly, Tali betraying you if you side with the Geth, and Legion betraying you if you side with the Quarians.

[padaE]

I can hardly imagine Miranda betraying Shepard, even if you pick Jack over her she will always break with Cerberus at the collector base...

.

only if it is all a play by the Illusive Man... but it don't make much sense.

[The Governator]

Any of you ever see The Venture Brothers? If you have, you know the character Brock Samson and that twitchy eye thing he does before he wigs out. I can totally see Liara doing that.



I would love for Liara to betray you because, well, it would be epic. I would feel badly for her fans, but...I still want it to happen.



I do not see Tali or Garrus ever betraying Shepard. The caveat is that if Shepard ever did anything to endanger the Quarians I do believe she would, but it would break her heart to do so.

[Barquiel]

I think a betrayel is very unlikely. Why should anyone side with the reapers? (except indoctrination, of course). I suppose even Morinth wants to stop them



Liara? She couldn't let you go and betrays Shepard...makes no sense imo.

[Collider]

I agree Barquiel about Liara. Considering how far she went to save Shepard, betrayal seems very unlikely. Plus she knows the most about the Reapers other than Sheapard. I have to laugh at the idea that Legion/Tali is most likely though, I'm afraid

[Saaen]

Most Likely: Kaiden and Ashley. They both react badly to Cerberus.

Least Likely: Tali, Wrex, Garrus, Joker, and Legion. (None of them gain anything by doing it)

[Barquiel]

Collider wrote...

 I have to laugh at the idea that Legion/Tali is most likely though, I'm afraid

Well, if the quarians decide to attack the geth and you have to choose one side...I think Legion or Tali wouldn't accept Shepards decision. That's the only scenario I can think of where a "betrayel" makes sense.