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[Gill Kaiser]

The supernatural exists in Thedas, but all of it is a result of the Fade, the Veil, and spirit/demon influence. I am willing to believe in the elements of the supernatural that have evidence supporting them, such as the aforementioned. I see no evidence in Thedas of any kind of divine power. Saying that the Fade's brand of supernatural proves the religious version of the supernatural is a fallacy.

However, I acknowledge that as it is a fictional setting, it's quite possible that the Maker exists.

[Andorfiend]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

The supernatural exists in Thedas, but all of it is a result of the Fade, the Veil, and spirit/demon influence. I am willing to believe in the elements of the supernatural that have evidence supporting them, such as the aforementioned. I see no evidence in Thedas of any kind of divine power. Saying that the Fade's brand of supernatural proves the religious version of the supernatural is a fallacy.
However, I acknowledge that as it is a fictional setting, it's quite possible that the Maker exists.

Heh. That reminds me of Terry Pratchett's discussion of how hard it is to be an atheist in a world where the Gods are fond of going about throwing rocks through atheists windows.

[Mlai00]

@ Fate Elixir:

You are mixing up different scientific disciplines and attributing them ALL to evolution. Like saying Einstein is a crock because he didn't cure AIDS.

(1) Evolution does not exclude God(s).

(2) Evolution is not abiogenesis, and has nothing to do with astrophysics.

(3) The Laws of Thermodynamics break down with respect to the Big Bang. It wasn't meant to address the beginning of the universe. Just like Newtonian physics can't explain Relativity.

(4) But #3 has nothing to do with Evolution so I don't even know why we're bringing it up, considering #1 and #2.

(5) Evolution is a science. Just because people decide to make it political/religious/philosophical, does not make it less of a science. What you are advocating, is the same as the Catholic Church imprisoning Gallileo and suppressing his works.

(6) ID is not a science.



@ Andorfiend:

Yup, people (and even the Chantry itself) are projecting onto The Maker. After reading this thread, do you wonder why? It's human nature to want a mommy.

[Gill Kaiser]

Andorfiend wrote...

Gill Kaiser wrote...

The supernatural exists in Thedas, but all of it is a result of the Fade, the Veil, and spirit/demon influence. I am willing to believe in the elements of the supernatural that have evidence supporting them, such as the aforementioned. I see no evidence in Thedas of any kind of divine power. Saying that the Fade's brand of supernatural proves the religious version of the supernatural is a fallacy.
However, I acknowledge that as it is a fictional setting, it's quite possible that the Maker exists.

Heh. That reminds me of Terry Pratchett's discussion of how hard it is to be an atheist in a world where the Gods are fond of going about throwing rocks through atheists windows.

On the Discworld, gods only exist because people believe in them, so it's not quite the same. I see your point though

[Grovermancer]

monkeycamoran wrote...

Grovermancer wrote...

I assume since DA is largely based on 'Western' archetype (a'la Judeo/Christian/Islamic and thus, Tolkien themes) it's a purely cultural one.

In an Eastern view, there doesn't seem to be such stark examples of separation, "the fall," the need for punishment and retribution, and other motifs that always recur in Western myths and religions.

I'm sorry but I'm not sure if I was being clear. Basically, what I'm saying is the Chantry creation myth true, not true, or contains elements where are some are true? I've somewhat answered my own question by the plurality of religious opinion in Thedas mimicking our own religious pluraity and the views of spirits coming from the Fade. But, it's not enough of an answer because I'm wondering if there are a cosmological constants that is reflected in Thedas that underlies a greater truth, even when the Chasind, the Elves, or the Qunari differ.

I'm not sure what the "word of God" canon (ie, creator/writer of DA) is on this topic, as I was curious myself.  TBH, I'll bet thus far they're being intentionally vague, so as to not have to deal with it, as well as allowing for decent characterization of the cultures' differering beliefs; ie, as of now, no one is "right" as far as we know. 

Hell, they're still vague on exactly what the 'old gods' were; dragons, dragon-like beings, higher-level Fade entities that manifested physically to appear like dragons, etc.  Which is it exactly?  (more than likely sounds like actual dragons according to some codex entries)

...

I don't know if I'm making sense.

(ps.  BTW, too tired to go into it, but there's an inherent flaw w/ the DA creation myth; if the Fade spirits were w/o self-consciousness (thus the Maker's need to create humans/elves/qunari as the 'second children'), then how did they become aware, much less jealous, of the 'second' children?  -- there's no Lucifer/Morgoth figure to corrupt the spirits w/ self-conscious drives)

Self-consciousness? I'm not sure if the spirits of the Fade are automatons, but merely lack the capability to understand human imagination.

Since it seems what DA is largely based on a 'western mythological view,' I guess I was using the standard of "angelic entities" as an example of how "self-consciousness" functions with Fade spirits.  Within that paradigm, angels (or 'spirits,' the Maker's "First Children") that exist in the higher 'heavens' and astral realms (ie, the Fade) are "holyspiritual," not self-conscious like us.  Thus their contentment just "to simply be" and to "simply exist," having no passion to grow, evolve, etc., and hence the Maker's need to then create self-conscious beings.  (I know, it's full of paradoxes, cause this makes the Maker itself to be an almighty ego -- welcome to the western mindset)

Angels in Western mysticm (thus Fade spirits in DA shouldn't) don't have drives, desires, needs, motivations, etc.  All of that is inherent to self-consciousness, a trait given/acquired by man (and elves, quanari). 

The DA mythology hasn't properly explained this.


IMO, if they're gonna have the Fade spirits somehow 'acquire' self-consciousness w/o a "super spirit" corrupting them (Lucifer, Morgoth), then they should've played it thus:

-- humans' minds left their bodies and entered the Fade as they slept
-- the humans' minds reflected upon the empty vessels that were the Fade spirits
-- the Fade spirits became those thoughts and emotions, both good and bad
-- thus those good and bad Fade spirits became self-aware... and acted accordingly...


Though that wouldn't explain the 'Old Gods' though.  And it would still allow for the Maker to appear very fallible, unless it was all part of the 'master plan.'

At least that's my interpretation thus far.

Modifié par Grovermancer, 03 avril 2010 - 03:54 .

[TheComfyCat]

Wicked 702 wrote...

I'm afraid I'm not ready to give evolution such a wide berth as to acknowledge the reality that it somehow extends back to simple life form changing into complex ones. That extrapolation never was a part of Darwin's work and is not related to his theories of natural selection. This addition to his theory is something that has been added by modern man and I fail to see the correlation.
I suppose anything is possible. But that just doesn't make logical sense to me. By the way, I have a BS in Chemistry so I do have some idea of what I'm talking about....maybe not much but some.

Well, it couldn't have been, considering he didn't even know about DNA... but anyway, this was all was nice to chat about, even if we don't really agree.

@ Fate Elixir: "hidden atheist activists" ?

The only thing tying atheists together is a lack of a belief in "god(s)." They don't necessarily hold any other similar view, politically or otherwise. Teaching evolution is part of teaching science, but atheism need not necessarily be involved.

But I'd rather not really get into it with you... your arguments are largely non sequitur, and I wouldn't really know where to begin.

[Desmod19]

Does anyone else notice the chaotic warp from the original discussion of sexing up a demon to who created the world?

[AlanC9]

Grovermancer wrote...
Since it seems what DA is largely based on a 'western mythological view,' I guess I was using the standard of "angelic entities" as an example of how "self-consciousness" functions with Fade spirits.  Within that paradigm, angels (or 'spirits,' the Maker's "First Children") that exist in the higher 'heavens' and astral realms (ie, the Fade) are "holyspiritual," not self-conscious like us.  Thus their contentment just "to simply be" and to "simply exist," having no passion to grow, evolve, etc., and hence the Maker's need to then create self-conscious beings.  (I know, it's full of paradoxes, cause this makes the Maker itself to be an almighty ego -- welcome to the western mindset)

Angels in Western mysticm (thus Fade spirits in DA shouldn't) don't have drives, desires, needs, motivations, etc.  All of that is inherent to self-consciousness, a trait given/acquired by man (and elves, quanari). 

I'm not sure there's any good reason to equate western mythology with the actual truth in Thedas. They can base the lore on these beliefs without those beliefs being based on the setting's reality. If anything, they've got an incentive to make the reality something far different, so we have a stunning reveal at the end of Dragon Age VI. You want to bet that we won't actually end up in the Black City at some point before this is all done?

[AlanC9]

Gill Kaiser wrote...
 I am willing to believe in the elements of the supernatural that have evidence supporting them, such as the aforementioned. I see no evidence in Thedas of any kind of divine power. Saying that the Fade's brand of supernatural proves the religious version of the supernatural is a fallacy.

How should we define "divine" in this context, though? As mentioned a bit earlier, most polytheistic gods are just super-powered beings who demand worship (why they want that isn't quite clear). Or would Zeus et al. not count as divine for current purposes?

[Faohlun]

Oh god a religon debate here it comes please shut it down

[Gill Kaiser]

Aye, I mean divine as the Chantry believes the Maker to be. I expect that if you posited the theory that the Maker is just a strong Fade spirit, the Chantry would consider it heresy. In Chantry dogma, the Maker is an all-powerful creator god akin to Yahweh. Compared to the Chantry's beliefs, the idea of the Maker as an entity of the Fade would seem mundane, as the Fade is demonstrably real.

[Wicked 702]

Faohlun wrote...

Oh god a religon debate here it comes please shut it down

If you don't like it don't read it. So far, we've been able to have a pretty good discussion without rattling too many feathers. Even though I know I'm a jerk sometimes. I've found the whole thing quite interesting and engaging.

[redhead1979]

For interesting information on what possibly happened before/during/and shortly after the Big Bang do a YouTube search for Neil Turok, then prepare to have your brain beaten like a redheaded stepchild.



I like the idea of Andraste being "possessed" by a good fade spirit. It makes sense, considering the information we are given within DA. It might also be possible that there is more of a struggle going on in the Fade than we know about. If anyone has ever read any of Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion series, you could apply the idea of "balance" to what occurs in the Fade. If the struggle between the "good" and "bad" spirits gets tipped too far in one direction, there must be a counterbalance. Could the Blights be the counterbalance which occurs as a direct result of happenings within the Fade? An Archdemon/Old God breaks into the physical world to correct an imbalance? If so, did the Grey Warden keep that balance from being achieved by being victorious?

[CptPatch]

Inevitably, any kind of "does God exist?" debate must address ONE foundation question: From whence came all the matter in the Universe?  You can argue until we're all dust and never conclusively ascertain if it was Evolution or Creation that created humanity.  But in the final analysis, does it even matter?  Sometime, a lllloooonnnnggggg time ago, ****** sapiens started to take shape.  The why and the how really, really does NOT matter.  Humanity exists, which is entirely self-evident.  (Unless you want to get into one of those surreal, "Last night I dreamt I was a butterfly; could it be that today I am in reality a butterfly dreaming of being a man?" discussions.)

It's VERY evident that DA:O's religious environment is a mirror of Earth's Real Life theologies.  The Humans, the Elves, and even the Dwarves have Creation lore that are nearly congruent with some Earth sects, cults, movements, or -- at a stretch if necessary -- some fiction writer's religious speculations.  (Check out some of Edgar Rice Burroughs constructs in the John Carter series to see what I mean.  In particular the reation stories of the Black Men of Mars.]

Now, if one takes the stance that there are NO gods, or that God was just a Watchmaker (made His piece and then moved on, never to return), then that's END OF STORY.  Theology is then just theorizing with no practical application.  _BUT_, if people latch onto the idea that God is still involved and remains in the picture, then what results is what transpired on Earth in the Real World.  That is, a near continuous clash between beliefs and ideas about the nature of God(s), frequently resulting in bloodshed and mayhem.  Even "peaceful" religions become overbearing in their dictates about what is Right and what is Wrong.

And when all is said and done, ALL religions fall back on _one_ argument: "We're right because you can NOT prove irrefutably that we're wrong!"  And, oh btw, because _we_ are Right, anyone who thinks differently will be spending eternity roasting in Hell.  (Not universal, but VERY common.)  And since you _are_ Wrong, you are an affront to God, and we must speed you on your way to your appropriate divine punishment.

Whenever I hear a religious zealot beseeching, "Have faith, brethren!", I can't help but picture a used car salesman saying, "Trust me!"

Of course, on Thedas they have access to the Fade, which sort of lends more credence.  Not as much as if the Maker put in an undeniable, seen by all appearance.  But if He _did_ do that, why would faith be necessary at all?

[Nukenin]

Desmod19 wrote...

Does anyone else notice the chaotic warp from the original discussion of sexing up a demon to who created the world?

I'm too a'feared to read it all.  I still want to believe this is all "HOW TO" discussion presented by and targeted to randy apprentices. 

[AlanC9]

It occurs to me that the DA:O cosmology is the exact opposite of the traditional AD&D system. Instead of a highly structured system of outer planes arranged on a neat grid of ethical principles, we've got a sort of spiritual chaos underlying everything, which bubbles up into the physical world in ways that are essentially random.

I'm still not quite clear where the Tevinter gods figure into anything. Or for that matter, the elven gods, which don't seem to map all that well onto the Tevinter pantheon. Though the elven religion could be complete fiction, I guess.

Is there any explanation of how they determine which Tevinter god has been dug up for a Blight?

[Sigma Tauri]

AlanC9 wrote...
It occurs to me that the DA:O cosmology is the exact opposite of the traditional AD&D system.

Dragon Age has a cosmology?

[CptPatch]

AlanC9 wrote...
Is there any explanation of how they determine which Tevinter god has been dug up for a Blight?

http://dragonage.wik...m/wiki/Old_Gods

The Old Gods (which become archdemons once they become tainted) were all imprisoned underground by the Maker, according to the Chantry.  One assumes they were scattered as well as hidden.  The darkspawn between Blights essentially conduct a treasure hunt, casting hither and yon until they finally locate one of the Old Gods.  Which specific Old God gets found is a random occurrence. 

As of the end of the most recent Blight, only two of the original 7 Old Gods remains.  One can only speculate as to what happens after those last two are also permanently eliminated?  What will be left to drive the darkspawn if there is no longer a possibility of finding a new arrchdemon to lead them?

Modifié par CptPatch, 03 avril 2010 - 07:59 .

[Shady314]

I think the Grey wardens can sense which one it is.

[Grovermancer]

AlanC9 wrote...

Grovermancer wrote...
Since it seems what DA is largely based on a 'western mythological view,' I guess I was using the standard of "angelic entities" as an example of how "self-consciousness" functions with Fade spirits.  Within that paradigm, angels (or 'spirits,' the Maker's "First Children") that exist in the higher 'heavens' and astral realms (ie, the Fade) are "holyspiritual," not self-conscious like us.  Thus their contentment just "to simply be" and to "simply exist," having no passion to grow, evolve, etc., and hence the Maker's need to then create self-conscious beings.  (I know, it's full of paradoxes, cause this makes the Maker itself to be an almighty ego -- welcome to the western mindset)

Angels in Western mysticm (thus Fade spirits in DA shouldn't) don't have drives, desires, needs, motivations, etc.  All of that is inherent to self-consciousness, a trait given/acquired by man (and elves, quanari). 

I'm not sure there's any good reason to equate western mythology with the actual truth in Thedas. They can base the lore on these beliefs without those beliefs being based on the setting's reality. If anything, they've got an incentive to make the reality something far different, so we have a stunning reveal at the end of Dragon Age VI. You want to bet that we won't actually end up in the Black City at some point before this is all done?

You're right.  I was using the 'western' worldview as a loose template, but it obviously doesn't fit exactly.

Though in the DA mythos, "the Maker" is very, very fallible, IF he is as the Chantry says; an "almighty ego" that made a mistake in creating spirits that then needed isolated to the Fade, and which almost spontanteously became 'evil' demons, etc.

Also that the Maker "turns away" from man/elves/qunari because of "dragon worship."  (the so-called "first sin")

One could go on and on, but just seems like a lot of errors and human-like behavior for something that should be, by definition, perfect beyond comprehension.

*** One could say that's another projection on my part of putting our definitions of 'god' onto the Maker, but I'd argue that must be the definition of any ultimate Maker, even if put in a fictional universe.


Maybe the Dragon Age universe is like "Berserk," where god really aint G-d.  (ie, I'd argue the mythos is inherently flawed and cheats)



Meh, this is too damn time consuming for a video game whose creators probably doesn't even care themselves.

[Grovermancer]

Gill Kaiser wrote...

Aye, I mean divine as the Chantry believes the Maker to be. I expect that if you posited the theory that the Maker is just a strong Fade spirit, the Chantry would consider it heresy. In Chantry dogma, the Maker is an all-powerful creator god akin to Yahweh. Compared to the Chantry's beliefs, the idea of the Maker as an entity of the Fade would seem mundane, as the Fade is demonstrably real.

Yes...  I've thought this all along.


Either the Chantry is waaaay off in it's interpretations and beliefs regarding "the Maker" (especially in their creation myths presented in the codex entries), or else this "Maker" is really just further up the Fade spirit hierarchy.

The Maker makes too many mistakes and behaves like a typical fallible self-conscious entity to be omniscient and perfect beyond perfect as it should be by definition.  As it is (according to the Chantry), the Maker basically acts like people...  if people were all powerful.  

[Grovermancer]

Luc0s wrote...

Fate Elixir wrote...

I don't have enough faith to be an atheist personally.

Since when does it take faith to be an atheist? I thought being an atheist means a LACK of faith in a god/deity/maker?

As for me, I'm an agnostic-atheist (meaning I simply just don't care about the whole does or doesn't god exist).


As for my DA:O character (Arcane Warrior - Blood Mage), everytime I get the change to make fun of the Chantry, I do so. The Chantry is even worse than every religion on earth together, they deserve a good smack in their faces.

I'm assuming someone said that because, as it seems to be nowadays, atheism is just another belief system, and some of it's followers react and behave like fundamentalists.

The religious believe, and the atheists believe (though at least their beliefs are much closer based on rational conclusions on what seems to be observable reality).  Both believe, neither know.


I'd submit that legit mystics, masters, saviors, and awakened ones are the only ones who truly "know" ...but that's a whole other can of worms!!!

 

[redhead1979]

Gover, out of curiosity, what is the difference between an atheist, an atheist fundamentalist, or a militant atheist? I've been labled as all three, though I can't for the life of me discern what actions I took (other than speaking my mind) which earned me each unique label. If an atheist doesn't believe in the existance of gods, does a fundamental atheist really, really not believe in the existance of gods? Does a militant atheist carry a gun while not believing in the existance of gods? What are the specific criteria for each?



The Chantry, in my opinion, does mirror the Big 3 Judeo-Christian faiths to the extent that they use the explanation as a justification for their lot in life. If they were robbed it was the Makers will. If they found a sovereign laying on the ground it was the Makers will. If they were infected by Darkspawn and became a mass-murdering monster who eats babies, it was the Makers will. So in essence, they give the Maker credit for things that were going to happen anyway. It is just a way to shift responsibility from the person to a vague entity which truly has their best interests at heart, as long you realize that those severed limbs gaping hole in your head left by that axe are part of some divine plan the Maker has for you.