Malak, definitely. BioWare have yet to top him, or indeed, KotOR itself.
Saren you barely get time to care about him (since ME is such a short game) and feeling any badness towards him is difficult. Ditto for any "foe" in ME2.
The Architect, again, not enough time to build any sort of emotion towards him. It's just like "meh". I felt more animosity for Arl Howe than him, and he isn't even a major character! (Bare in mind my main is a human)
Loghain is definitely a respectable foe, however, and an all-round great character. He doesn't touch Malak for pure evil-ness and performance, but he does show how BioWare can make genuinely interesting characters from time-to-time.
So yeah, Malak is the best villain.
Who is the better villain: The Architect, Loghain, Malak, or Saren?
Débuté par
Maria Caliban
, avril 01 2010 08:15
Retour en haut
#27
Posté 01 avril 2010 - 10:35
Giltspur
-
- Members
- 1 117 messages
It would be Irenicus, but he's not listed. So, Saren it is. It's true that he's not the most evil or powerful thing out there, but he is the most believable and compelling on your list. There's some initial mystery about where his power comes from. The game for awhile seems to revolve around pursuing him. And later you find that he's sort of given in psychologically and is willing to compromise himself and others for some shallow half victory. And you can even convice him he's made a mistake. I'm fine with a character being evil out of narrowmindedness. Not everyone has to be Sauron. It's fine for a villain to be Saruman if he's a) believable and 
interesting in the story. Saren wins.
Loghain seems like a good creation that didn't come across well for much of the game. I think his paranoia in the game doesn't come across as well as it should in the right places. During his speech or at camp or in Return to Ostagar or in the books, you see a little of what's going on with Loghain. But the books shouldn't be needed for the game--so I don't count them. The other stuff comes too late. Late revelations are fine and all if the early mystery is intriguing. But, I didn't find Loghain's betrayal all that puzzling or intriguing. There was no hook given to the player (that I picked up on at least) that gave you much reason to feel sorry for his mistake. He mostly just seemed like a big, brooding doofus until the very end.
interesting in the story. Saren wins.Loghain seems like a good creation that didn't come across well for much of the game. I think his paranoia in the game doesn't come across as well as it should in the right places. During his speech or at camp or in Return to Ostagar or in the books, you see a little of what's going on with Loghain. But the books shouldn't be needed for the game--so I don't count them. The other stuff comes too late. Late revelations are fine and all if the early mystery is intriguing. But, I didn't find Loghain's betrayal all that puzzling or intriguing. There was no hook given to the player (that I picked up on at least) that gave you much reason to feel sorry for his mistake. He mostly just seemed like a big, brooding doofus until the very end.
Modifié par Giltspur, 01 avril 2010 - 10:37 .
#28
Posté 01 avril 2010 - 10:42
HoonDing
-
- Members
- 3 012 messages
Malak is the most interesting villain for me, considering the personal connexion with Revan. Not to mention, the boss fight was quite interesting and multiphase, unlike any of the mentioned other bosses.
But Saren gets bonus points for being able to use a dialogue check to do him in.
But Saren gets bonus points for being able to use a dialogue check to do him in.
Modifié par virumor, 01 avril 2010 - 10:42 .
#29
Posté 01 avril 2010 - 10:46
Epona222
-
- Members
- 158 messages
Saren isn't sure of himself when you charm/intimidate him
I charmed/intimidated him out of the epic showdown that I felt was my right at the end of ME. I was really quite put out. Therefore he doesn't have the cojones to make a truly unforgettable villain - ie. one that I have to fight to the death! I didn't think he had enough motive to go through with it, and clearly neither did he when it came down to it. And he was just a pawn in someone else's game anyway.
Modifié par Epona222, 01 avril 2010 - 10:48 .
#30
Posté 01 avril 2010 - 10:50
Rive Caedo
-
- Members
- 814 messages
Also giving it up for Malak here. For being the most classically villainous villain in the mix.
#31
Posté 01 avril 2010 - 10:53
Ponce de Leon
-
- Members
- 4 030 messages
Actually... I think I have to say Malak too... at least from the list. Although I like him rather than hate him. Damn, he took that jedi lady, turned her darkside and gave me a chance to kill her. No one else deserves more respect. May he do the same to Morrigan. I love head-cutting... and yes, I actually hate every first and most loved women in every BioWare game. Jaheira, Aribeth, Bastila, that chick from Mass Effect (didn't play long enough for the sure vote though, the human one) and Morrigan. At least, you can blast off 3 out of 5... maybe 4, don't know. Morrigan, alas, cannot die...
#32
Posté 01 avril 2010 - 11:02
Epona222
-
- Members
- 158 messages
that chick from Mass Effect (didn't play long enough for the sure vote though, the human one)
Ashley? Couldn't stand her. When it came down to "The Choice" she was always my sacrifice, easy decision. Loved Kaiden though, wasn't he voiced by the same actor who did Carth in kotor?
#33
Posté 01 avril 2010 - 11:07
Ponce de Leon
-
- Members
- 4 030 messages
Epona222 wrote...
that chick from Mass Effect (didn't play long enough for the sure vote though, the human one)
Ashley? Couldn't stand her. When it came down to "The Choice" she was always my sacrifice, easy decision. Loved Kaiden though, wasn't he voiced by the same actor who did Carth in kotor?
Yes he did : http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0768620/
Also, the chick is killable? I'm one step closer at buying the game. I may actually not need to play it forever on my friend's PC!
Also, is there a coverchick from Jade Empire which is killable?
#34
Posté 01 avril 2010 - 11:22
Vicious
-
- Members
- 3 221 messages
Malak, his relationship with the main character is a big decider.
Also,
The Archdemon was lame in comparison to the Reapers we've met in ME/ME2.
Also,
The Archdemon was lame in comparison to the Reapers we've met in ME/ME2.
#35
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 12:03
MelRedux
-
- Members
- 2 641 messages
DaerogTheDhampir wrote...
I would actually say from what I've played from KotOR to DA:OA, Master Li may actually be the best villian. Connection to hero, very inteligent, embraced and understands his nature, and great at manipulating. Then again, he wasn't that unique. Haven't played BG 1 or 2.
Oh! I forgot about Master Li! He was a good one too. I think he's a close second to Malak, who is still #1 for me.
And thanks, CalJones, for the kotor refresher. So it was Bastila you ahve the conversation with, not Malak. Meh, Malak is still the awesomesauce of villainy.
#36
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 12:12
MelRedux
-
- Members
- 2 641 messages
Sorry for the double post, but I just thought of something else....
It seems like everyone is picking Malak because of his ties to the PC. I think that's what is missing with DA and ME, you don't get that same emotional connection. My first playthrough with a HNF, I kept waiting for Fergus to appear as the mastermind behind Howe murdering your family and the whole poltical upheaval as a push for the throne. Talk about a betrayal! Needless to say, I was disappointed and pissed when I found out he was just lost that whole time...haha.
It seems like everyone is picking Malak because of his ties to the PC. I think that's what is missing with DA and ME, you don't get that same emotional connection. My first playthrough with a HNF, I kept waiting for Fergus to appear as the mastermind behind Howe murdering your family and the whole poltical upheaval as a push for the throne. Talk about a betrayal! Needless to say, I was disappointed and pissed when I found out he was just lost that whole time...haha.
#37
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 04:43
Vicious
-
- Members
- 3 221 messages
It seems like everyone is picking Malak because of his ties to the PC.
Of course. I had zero ties to Loghain and Alistair was the one who really seemed to have issue with the guy.
The Architect? Same deal, I knew nothing about him, so hard to build up 'hate.'
Saren? The fact that he was not actually evil, but being mind-controlled and actually willing to kill himself to prevent further death removes him from the 'villain' list IMO. He was not the villain. Sovereign was.
The Archdemon doesn't get to be on this list because he was the most epic yawn of a Bioware 'villain' I've ever seen. It's no wonder people treat Loghain like he was the big bad of Dragon Age - The Archdemon is just that lame.
Modifié par Vicious, 02 avril 2010 - 04:46 .
#38
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 08:22
fanman72
-
- Members
- 609 messages
Loghain. His character is far more complex than any of the others, at least from reading the book.
Malak, Sarevok, and Irenicus kind of seemed pretty cliched to be honest. Sarevok was somewhat redeemed as a teammate in TOB, however.
Ravel Puzzlewell, and the three KOTOR II villains top them all IMO, but tha'ts not really bioware
Malak, Sarevok, and Irenicus kind of seemed pretty cliched to be honest. Sarevok was somewhat redeemed as a teammate in TOB, however.
Ravel Puzzlewell, and the three KOTOR II villains top them all IMO, but tha'ts not really bioware
Modifié par fanman72, 02 avril 2010 - 09:50 .
#39
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 08:43
CalJones
-
- Members
- 3 205 messages
Master Li was a great creation. I must admit I didn't see the twist coming in that game - he really was a bastard.
Of the four characters in the thread, then yes, Loghain is easily my favourite but, like I said, I don't see him as a villain. Likewise Saren. Haven't met the Architect yet (I have Awakening sat on my shelf but I'm not installing it until Bioware patches the damn thing), but he sounds like another grey character. So really, I suppose Malak really is the only obvious villain.
It would make more sense to have Malak vs Sarevok. After all, Sarevok had the huge bald, tattoo-headed guy thing nailed way before Malak came along.
Of the four characters in the thread, then yes, Loghain is easily my favourite but, like I said, I don't see him as a villain. Likewise Saren. Haven't met the Architect yet (I have Awakening sat on my shelf but I'm not installing it until Bioware patches the damn thing), but he sounds like another grey character. So really, I suppose Malak really is the only obvious villain.
It would make more sense to have Malak vs Sarevok. After all, Sarevok had the huge bald, tattoo-headed guy thing nailed way before Malak came along.
#40
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 08:51
HaloKT
-
- Members
- 188 messages
Strange, it's the contrary for me. Realising that Saren wasn't even the villain in ME1, and that - even while indoctrinated - still had a shred of the old Turian in him.... it made him much more than another mindless drone in Sovereign's scheme. Made me feel sad for him.Epona222 wrote...
Saren isn't sure of himself when you charm/intimidate him
I charmed/intimidated him out of the epic showdown that I felt was my right at the end of ME. I was really quite put out. Therefore he doesn't have the cojones to make a truly unforgettable villain - ie. one that I have to fight to the death! I didn't think he had enough motive to go through with it, and clearly neither did he when it came down to it. And he was just a pawn in someone else's game anyway.
#41
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 08:59
CalJones
-
- Members
- 3 205 messages
Yes, Bioware did a good job of making you despise Saren and then flipping that on its head when you realise what's happened to him.
#42
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 09:01
Massadonious1
-
- Members
- 2 792 messages
Loghain is as much of a cliche as Malak. They both acquired their power the same way.
#43
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 09:14
Frumyfrenzy
-
- Members
- 242 messages
The Architect and Loghain. They are booth good "villains", because they are not evil (as I perceive them).
Loghain had something I would call psychological credibility. His intentions and beliefs all became obvious through his biography with the Orlais and his disbelief of the abilities Gray Wardens have. He grew bitter and narrowed his view until he thought he had to make a terrible decision (Ostagar) in order to save Ferelden from greater harm. He failed as a human.
(SPOILER WARNING, copied this from my mini review)
The Architect, as I perceive him, is not evil either, he just took some harsh measures in pursuing a goal the Grey Wardens share: stopping the Blights. Two of his plans failed, the first started a Blight he didn't want and the second outcome is the crazy Mother, who wants to hear the call of the old gods again. I can see him having a great future in the Dragon Age franchise, maybe even stepping back from his extreme plans as he is reasonable and thus able to accept the results as failures. I can see him working (secretely) with Grey Wardens searching for a agreeable solution of the situation, after he accepts his failures. The Architect a good guy? No, certainly. But a grey guy who made debatable choices in his past. Seeing the whole conflict between the Darkspawn and the rest of Ferelden (or Thedas) from his perspective (in my opinion) really is enrichening the game's universe. I'm always for characters doing questionable stuff with honorable intentions or from misguided perspectives (like Teyrn Loghain). It achieves both: credibility of character's motivations and actions by avoiding the black/white morality villains and heroes usually are burdened with. Little details like his rejection of being the father or the ruler to his kind, very interesting. I'm a clearly a fan of the Architect, the most interesting character.
Loghain had something I would call psychological credibility. His intentions and beliefs all became obvious through his biography with the Orlais and his disbelief of the abilities Gray Wardens have. He grew bitter and narrowed his view until he thought he had to make a terrible decision (Ostagar) in order to save Ferelden from greater harm. He failed as a human.
(SPOILER WARNING, copied this from my mini review)
The Architect, as I perceive him, is not evil either, he just took some harsh measures in pursuing a goal the Grey Wardens share: stopping the Blights. Two of his plans failed, the first started a Blight he didn't want and the second outcome is the crazy Mother, who wants to hear the call of the old gods again. I can see him having a great future in the Dragon Age franchise, maybe even stepping back from his extreme plans as he is reasonable and thus able to accept the results as failures. I can see him working (secretely) with Grey Wardens searching for a agreeable solution of the situation, after he accepts his failures. The Architect a good guy? No, certainly. But a grey guy who made debatable choices in his past. Seeing the whole conflict between the Darkspawn and the rest of Ferelden (or Thedas) from his perspective (in my opinion) really is enrichening the game's universe. I'm always for characters doing questionable stuff with honorable intentions or from misguided perspectives (like Teyrn Loghain). It achieves both: credibility of character's motivations and actions by avoiding the black/white morality villains and heroes usually are burdened with. Little details like his rejection of being the father or the ruler to his kind, very interesting. I'm a clearly a fan of the Architect, the most interesting character.
Modifié par Frumyfrenzy, 02 avril 2010 - 09:15 .
#45
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 10:48
AndreaDraco
-
- Members
- 962 messages
Of the ones listed I'd say Darth Malak, but my vote would go to Master Li from Jade Empire, because his clever and subtly manipulating, because he's cold and appropriately mellifluous. Also, the twist involved with his character, albeit not entirely original (see Revan), was still unexpected and powerful.
Modifié par AndreaDraco, 02 avril 2010 - 12:08 .
#46
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 10:53
sylvanaerie
-
- Members
- 9 436 messages
I only know two of the ones you list (the Dragon Age ones). Of the two Loghain would have to be my pick as fave villian. He was completely looney toons over Orlesians and kind of over the top...I mean HONESTLY he thinks the last known surviving Cousland is an Orlesian? All the other nobles recognize her/him. The Couslands fought against Orlais too or he conveniently forgets that. His behavior in the Landsmeet (Pointing the finger of blame at Howe and offering up lame excuses for his behavior) just makes me actually ENJOY killing him. That isn't even necessary since once I finish with Caladrius and the other Tevinters I am already hating on him. Whatever he was 30 years ago, there is nothing left of that in the man I see in the game.
The only regret I have in that situation is executing him in front of his daughter. I wish the game had an option to remove her from the room prior to doing it. No child should have to witness that (Parent killed).
The Architect was frankly...boring. I simply killed him. We didn't get enough time to really get to know him (and I never read the books on DA).
I will put in though I enjoyed Irenicus far more than any of the DA villians so far. He (and to a lesser extent his sister, Bohdi) were interesting opponents because they were so honestly vile in their motives. Loghain just wanted my PC dead (because somehow the Joining makes all Wardens Orlesian) Irenicus wants my PC's soul. Besides that the whole betrayal by Yoshimo, the subsequent race to get back what Irenicus stole from my PC and the backdrop of your romantic interest (possibly kidnapped and made into a semi-vampire by Bohdi) makes for wonderful story. Plus he's voiced by David Warner.
Damn now I wanna play BG2 again...
The only regret I have in that situation is executing him in front of his daughter. I wish the game had an option to remove her from the room prior to doing it. No child should have to witness that (Parent killed).
The Architect was frankly...boring. I simply killed him. We didn't get enough time to really get to know him (and I never read the books on DA).
I will put in though I enjoyed Irenicus far more than any of the DA villians so far. He (and to a lesser extent his sister, Bohdi) were interesting opponents because they were so honestly vile in their motives. Loghain just wanted my PC dead (because somehow the Joining makes all Wardens Orlesian) Irenicus wants my PC's soul. Besides that the whole betrayal by Yoshimo, the subsequent race to get back what Irenicus stole from my PC and the backdrop of your romantic interest (possibly kidnapped and made into a semi-vampire by Bohdi) makes for wonderful story. Plus he's voiced by David Warner.
Damn now I wanna play BG2 again...
Modifié par sylvanaerie, 02 avril 2010 - 10:55 .
#47
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 11:26
Ulicus
-
- Members
- 2 233 messages
Malak was the best archetypal, over the top and melodramatic villain, for sure... and while there wasn't as much as I'd have liked, you got enough of a sense of his history to realise that his fall was the true tragedy. I mean, I think KotOR is as awesome as it is because it tells an inverted version of the Star Wars Saga. Basically, it relates a story where Darth Sidious gets his mind wiped, joins the rebellion and then destroys Darth Vader. It's absolutely ****ed up and I love it.
#48
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 12:08
JakePT
-
- Members
- 477 messages
Never played KOTOR, but of that list I have to say Loghain. He was just so well written and performed (the Landsmeet has to be one of my favourite gaming moments ever thanks to him).
Saren is an interesting character, but wasn't as fleshed out as Loghain, primarily due to the structure of the story, which didn't allow for much time to learn about him and his motives.
Saren is an interesting character, but wasn't as fleshed out as Loghain, primarily due to the structure of the story, which didn't allow for much time to learn about him and his motives.
#49
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 12:20
SithLordExarKun
-
- Members
- 2 071 messages
Malak is probably the most brutal and tyrannical of all those mentioned. He was willing to bombard an entire planet just to kill one person.
Saren wasn't exactly the epitome of evil, the architect, though with nobel intentions but brutal methods isn't really evil along with Loghain who was over paranoid and went to extreme measures to complete his objectives.
Malaks evilness gets dwarfed by Sovereign and Harbinger though...
Saren wasn't exactly the epitome of evil, the architect, though with nobel intentions but brutal methods isn't really evil along with Loghain who was over paranoid and went to extreme measures to complete his objectives.
Malaks evilness gets dwarfed by Sovereign and Harbinger though...
Modifié par SithLordExarKun, 02 avril 2010 - 12:22 .
#50
Posté 02 avril 2010 - 12:51
Volourn
-
- Members
- 1 110 messages
"Because they fight for revenge and survival but also because they are complex individuals."
No, they aren't. They're awesome villains but theya ren't complex.
And, Kreia is very overrated. She's a solid villain but ultimiately boring and obvious from the moment you meet her. No depth to the character despite her babbling.
Anyways... to the list:
Architect: He's not really a villain. At best, he could be considered an atagonist.
Malak: At first glance, he's shallow but there is some depth there due to his relationship wit Revan., Not my favorite villain though his fight is cheesy as hell.
Loghain: Almost a cartoon in his villainy. This guy could have been awesome; but ultimaitely is alright.
Saren: A villain who is delusional. He'll make any excuse to make himself feel better aboput what he does. Ultimiately more pathetic than anything.
Out of the four chocies, I'd give the edge to Loghain as even though Architect is the better character he's not neccessarily the better villain in the truest definition of the word.
No, they aren't. They're awesome villains but theya ren't complex.
And, Kreia is very overrated. She's a solid villain but ultimiately boring and obvious from the moment you meet her. No depth to the character despite her babbling.
Anyways... to the list:
Architect: He's not really a villain. At best, he could be considered an atagonist.
Malak: At first glance, he's shallow but there is some depth there due to his relationship wit Revan., Not my favorite villain though his fight is cheesy as hell.
Loghain: Almost a cartoon in his villainy. This guy could have been awesome; but ultimaitely is alright.
Saren: A villain who is delusional. He'll make any excuse to make himself feel better aboput what he does. Ultimiately more pathetic than anything.
Out of the four chocies, I'd give the edge to Loghain as even though Architect is the better character he's not neccessarily the better villain in the truest definition of the word.
