139 réponses à ce sujet

[Sarah1281]

aaniadyen wrote...

Sarah1281 wrote...

Well, if you spare his life and he joins you you learn a lot more about him.

Sure, but at that point is he a villain/antagonist anymore? =P

That would depend on how fond you were of poor exiled/executed/married-to-Anora Alistair.

[orpheus333]

Jon Irenicus



/thread

[Kacynski]

From the listed I'd go with Malak because he's your antagonist throughout the whole game. I support the "endboss theory". Although he's sterotypical it was a great pleasure to fight the last battle against him.



But in general I do also support Jon Irenicus as the best villain ever portrayed by BioWare. He is so far out of reach in terms of power and knowledge in the beginning, first you have to fear him. Then you get the bytes on his story delivered in such a good pace and timing as you start growing in power yor fear is turning into hate towards him. Just before the final battle you've learned most, if not all, of his motivations and all the evil things he had done in his life it did really, really build up the stage very well for the final battle.

And, as has been mentioned above, he was an equally believable antagonist for a good oriented PC as an evil oriented PC.

[devilsgrin]

naturally Jon Irenicus is far and away the greatest villain BioWare has ever created... but then... Baldur's Gate II is the greatest game they've ever crafted. Even Bodhi is a great villain (i love vampires, so she is great in my eyes, she took the easy way of regaining the long life and power of the elves... she went undead).

Master Li is also an exceptionally well made villain. And his malevolence is truly sinister... its a twist you NEVER see coming. He'd be my No# 2 on the BioWare villain list.

Although not technically BioWare, Kreia is perhaps my absolute favourite villain, with a tie BioWare. She's utterly grey. both evil, and also filled with redeeming qualities. I love the final showdown where you can choose to spare her, (which is perhaps actually the less merciful option), and she says how much she had hoped you would, and that the Exile was her greatest student afterall (or something to that effect )

Of the four options originally listed... Malak is particularly villainous, being the most archetypal villain of the bunch. so he gets my vote.

I find Loghain despicable, and personally can't stand characters like him. Ones who are so blind to reality, or for whom reality has become so warped, that they actually become what they opposed. That coupled with his supreme arrogance in expecting the Bannorn to simply sit up and take orders from a jumped up farmer...

The Architect is another grey character, however, having not read The Calling, i can't truly judge him. The Mother... now her i like. She's irredeemably evil. And spider-like... how much a reference to BioWare's Forgotten Realms work...
Saren was a character i liked aswell. And though initially presented as The Big-Bad... when we finally confront him, he is just one man, with a few upgrades... he ultimately felt weak. Benezia was tougher (though considering she's a 1000 year old Asari matriarch with Epic level Biotics, she should be i suppose).

Modifié par devilsgrin, 30 mai 2010 - 05:23 .

[Templ]

Malak? You can't be serious. I wanted to hang myself every time he opened his mouth. Absolutely terrible writing. Whoever wrote him shouldn't be allowed to write anything ever again (OK, maybe a cringeworthy comic book ). HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!

Anyway, out of the games I played, the only villainous characters that I consider to be worthy of mention are Kreia (not really a villain, which is part of what makes her so great), The Transcended One, and mybe Master Li and Loghain (not quite worthy of respect, but they are farily well written).

Modifié par SpaceAlex, 30 mai 2010 - 12:44 .

[Group Theory]

I find almost all of Bioware's villains lacking. This is a problem with most games, though. The only villains in any game that I can think of off the top of my head that are at at least decent are Solidus and Ocelot.

A lot of people are saying Malak, but he never really stood out to me as a villain at all. In fact, the only things I remember about him is he blew up Taris and then I killed him at the end. I've been wanting to replay KotOR, so maybe I'll be able to appreciate him more as a villain. But as of right now, he's a pretty mediocre villain to me.

I didn't like Saren as a villain either. Mass Effect is more fresh in my mind than KotOR, but nothing Saren did or said really stands out to me.

Loghain is better than Saren and Malak, but still not that great of a villain. He does come off a bit crazy too, since his fears of Orlais are complelty unfounded in the game. Yes, Orlais did control Fereldan at one point, but there were really no clues at all in the game that Orlais were going to invade again. So it was dumb when Loghain was like "LOL BUT ORLAIS!!!"

Architect was also lame, but that may be because he had such little screen time.

Modifié par Group Theory, 30 mai 2010 - 06:49 .

[Sarah1281]

Loghain is better than Saren and Malak, but still not that great of a villain. He does come off a bit crazy too, since his fears of Orlais are complelty unfounded in the game. Yes, Orlais did control Fereldan at one point, but there were really no clues at all in the game that Orlais were going to invade again. So it was dumb when Loghain was like "LOL BUT ORLAIS!!!"

To be fair...they DID try to bring four legions of above-the-law peasant-raping chevaliers into the country and there is a precedent of countries coming in to help a lesser nation deal with a Blight and then not leaving.

[shoulderfish]

Definitely not the Architect. I dunno, I just kind of wanted to give him a hug and tell him everything's okay. He's too sad and tries so hard to do something good that it's just difficult to think of him as a villain. Sort of the same for Loghain, I guess -- he's a good tragic character, and you don't often see a war-hero-turned-villain.

I'd have to say Saren. (Sorry, haven't played KOTOR) He was teetering on the ruthless hero-villain line before he finally turns all bad in ME1. He then tries to "save" everyone by forging an alliance with the Reapers. He's a badass who's just cowardly enough to make you hate him, as instead of fighting against the Reapers, he joins them.

[Sarah1281]

I, too, can't see the Architect as much of a villain if only because he seems like the Jowan of darkspawn.

[Tirigon]

Loghain, because he is a hero and a criminal at once.

[MikeFL25]

I haven't played KOTOR (yet) so I can't accurately vote for that villain.

I don't really think of Loghain as a villain. He loves his country and his hatred of Orlais drove him to disregard the Darkspawn threat and mistakenly believe that Orlais wanted to invade again. Obviously this is bad because he declares the player character an enemy and divides Ferelden at a time when it needs to be united to fight the Darkspawn...but I don't think he himself was bad. He was just doing what he thought was right, even though it turned out to be wrong.

So I would say Saren, just because he could have warned the Council about Sovereign and helped them/Shepard avoid the attack on the Citadel. Instead, he willingly tried to usher in a mass genocide of all intelligent life in the false hope that the Reapers would let him - and future life - live.

Modifié par MikeFL25, 31 mai 2010 - 12:06 .

[Foolsfolly]

I really liked Saren a lot. I loved how he was turned and didn't realize it despite fearing it. I felt sorry for him and I really liked fighting him.



But BioWare villains are a little weak or really really campy. The only one that I thought had a great plan, was villainous, and properly motivated was Master Li. But he's not one of the listed.



Of the listed four....Saren.



Malak was too campy and ultimately he wasn't Revan who WAS the universe's big bad (and could still be). He was always in the player's shadow despite his rants otherwise.



Loghain...didn't care for him. He was well intended, sure, but he wasn't all that villainous and his threat wasn't that great. He was regent of the kingdom and no gate guard ever even pulled me aside and asked a question. He was a powerless whiny paranoid man who was once heroic.And for being such a great military mind none of his plans in the game worked.



So Saren wins my vote.

[aaniadyen]

Did ANYONE seriously vote for the architect in this thread? lol

[Vicious]

lol ya

[Kanner]

Saren for the badass factor.



Loghain was just a bit TOO cheesy ("Yes Cailan, a glorious day for us all. <<INSERT MANAICIAL LAUGHTER HERE>>). Awesome when you redeem him however. Could easily have been the best villian with a few tweaks.



Malak had some great lines and a nice final battle. Somewhat two dimensional however, and prone to "not winning" around the protagonist. That's never sexy.



I do not even acknowledge the Architect's existance, or any other bad guy who just has a title, for that matter. DA2 could ship without even referring sideways to Awakening and I would be happy.

[Behindyounow]

Malak, because you are actually given reason to hate him. The others are wussy "I'm doing this for the greater good villains." He also looks the coolest.



However, one of my favourite bioware villains is the Glorious Strategist, and I'd vote him if I had the choice.

[KnightofPhoenix]

I personally do not qualify anyone as a "villain". So I qualify all of the listed as "antagonists". So who do I think is better? Well it depends on how you define what a good antagonist is. Is the good antagonist supposed to make me sympathise with him? Or supposed to make me dislike him? Or is it just the badass factor? Or the amount of destruction and harm they caused to you and / or others?

In light of this, I think all four of them are great antagonists in their own right. So I'll give my opinion about each one of them.

- The Architect:



The Architect had very little screen time, appearing only in two scenes, one of which had no dialogue, plus one cutscene. And yet he still managed to steal the show in Awakening. So in that regard, he was definately a good antagonist / potential ally and the voice actor was phenomenal. The Architect seems to me to be the Darkspawn Messiah, the one who is going to deliver them, but at the same time the Architect is ignorant (or fakes ignorance) when it comes to dealing with others hence making him emotionally detached. I believe he cannot be blamed, as he was on his own as a pariah and had no society to live in and learn from. But there is no doubt that increases his danger factor and he did cause destruction whether deliberately or not. While I do not think the Architect is morally responsable for awakening Urthemiel, as the dragon was going to be tainted anyhow and the Blight would have started regardless, it's clear he is willing to risk everything in his experiments.
But I think a large part of his appeal is that he is mysterious and alien and yet at the same time relatable. We still don't know much about him, even he doesn't know why he is that way. But he appears to be the Darkspawn Warden in a sense. Willing to do whatever it takes to defeat the Blight.

- Darth Malak:



This highly depends on you RPing it well. Malak's interesting factor quadrupled once you learn that you are Revan. That makes Malak your old best friend and possible lover if you were a female. So Malak is the antagonist that can have the strongest emotional link with the player. But this necessitates good RPing, as we never really get to see Revan and Malak that much together and only hear about their close friendship. In addition to that, he's a badass like all Sith and sure as hell intimidating. Plus, he's got his own theme, which makes him even more badass. Plus, out of all antagonists, he does something personal to you. Although that can only work if you RP a remergent Sith Revan or a not so Light Revan, if you want revenge. The downside is that he isn't very relatable. He sacrificed an entire planet to get one person (and yes he would have won the war had he succeeded but it doesn't seem to be worth the cost). And we know from KOTOR 2 that he used this tactic quite often while Darth Revan spared as much planets and infrastructure as possible. So while there is an emotional link with Malak and what he says about the council trying to enslave us does ring true to my ears, I did not relate to him that much.

- Saren:



Saren is tragic. I think the best comparision is Boromir from LOTR. Both thought they could control or protect themselves from an unknown force in order to save others. And both were subtly influenced, their good motives twisted, by Sovereign / The One Ring, without them knowing it or wanting to admit it. Both were considered as heroes. Saren was the best Specter of his generation, albeit rutheless, and Boromir was the Captain of Gondor. And both can be redeemed at the very end. Not to mention that Saren had a great "plan" exposition (al of Virmire was just fantastic) and was very badass (I love his voice). And I sympathised with him and did feel sorry about him. His logic seems coherent and cohesive, but it was based on an assumption that I do not agree with, that the Reapers are simply machines who think like machines and as we see in ME2 they are not. And that's tragic. Saren was not wrong, he was ignorant and it was an ignorance used by Sovereign to manipulate him. Saren was not a fool, he knew very well what could happen to him hence the facility in Virmire, but he overestimated his worth to Sovereign. And the scene where he could potential redeem himself was a powerful scene. Out of all of Saren's great quotes, "Goodbye Shepard, Thank you" before killing himself is one of his best. Definately a great antagonist.

- Loghain:



Out of all these antagonists, he is the one I sympathise with the most. After reading the Stolen Throne, I found that in many ways, the Warden in Origins is the second Loghain. He is the most relatable, especially since I played a human noble who saw Loghain as the Hero who freed his country. Depending on what origins, he can have an emotional impact on the player. He is similar to Saren in that while his intentions were to save Ferelden, his logic was based on an ignorance vis a vis the Wardens and why they are necessary (something I don't blame him for as even I didn't know why the Wardens are necessary). But unlike Saren, Loghain is not manipulated by a higher power, though influenced by the snake Howe. Loghain's contrast with the others is that he is reacting to percieved threats and not acting. He is reacting to a percieved Orlesian invasion, to Cailan's idiocy, to a darkspawn incursion and to a disunited nobility. And while he does a poor job, I could not but sympathise. Of course many would say "It's all Loghain's fault", but I dislike oversimplifications as they ruin the complexity of characters and of the story. The way I saw Loghain was as a reactive force that was trying to save his beloved nation and failing at it, partially due to his ignorance vis a vis the Wardens. But his distrust towards Orlais (which I do not dissmiss as simple paranoia) is understandable to me. Out of all antagonists, Loghain is the one I sympathise with the most both emotionally and rationally. And his voice actor was excellent and Loghain is a badass.      


So if you define the best antagonist as being the one that draws the most sympathy, then it's Loghain Mac Tir for me. Saren Arterius comes second. 

EDIT: added pics, just because I can.
    

Modifié par KnightofPhoenix, 31 mai 2010 - 04:13 .

[Sleepy Somnus]

Nice post phoenix.

[Liliandra Nadiar]

Sarah1281 wrote...

I, too, can't see the Architect as much of a villain if only because he seems like the Jowan of darkspawn.

Ohh... harsh.

Of the listed choices, I'd have to go with Saren first. He may have been a loyal 'hero' type once. But his blind hatred of humans was ultimatly what allowed him to fall. Though he was more a puppet to the reapers by the time Shepard encounters him.

Loghain next since he's a villain who dones't think he is. Though wrong, he honestly bleieved he was doing the right thing for his country.

Malak was a bit too much of a typical Star Wars Sith Lord to pull off anything but giving the apperence of a bada**. Which he managed to pull off rather well, but still.

Architect... had potential, but since I hven't read the Calling, all I know is from Awakening where he came off to me like a bit of a mad scientits putz.

Off the list... I've not actually beaten BG2  so I can't say anything about Irenecus, but Master Li holds top for me. I honestly did not see it coming, the twist was very well writen and executed, more so using the cut scene movies that each told just enough of the whole story to make you think one way when it was actually the other.

[Elhanan]

Loghain. Best villain I have seen since Charlton Heston played Cardinal R in the Three Musketeers.

[Morrigans God son]

Who's Malek and Saren?

[Liliandra Nadiar]

As being referenced in the thread so far.



Loghain: Dragon Age: Origins.

Architect: Dragon Age: Origins: Awakening

Saren: Mass Effect

Malak: Knight of the Old Republic



Jon Ireneicus: Balder's Gate 2

Master Li: Jade Empire

Ravel Puzzelwell: Planescape: Torment

[FellowerOfOdin]

Morrigan because she deceived so many players thinking that she was a good person.

[Sarah1281]

FellowerOfOdin wrote...

Morrigan because she deceived so many players thinking that she was a good person.

In addition to her not even being on the list, we have yet to have any confirmation that she wasn't.

[Trenrade]

Malak since KotOR holds a very special place in my heart as being my first BioWare game. I love that no chin bastard