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[Elhanan]

I could not spare the female Blood mage in the Tower, as I had given my word to rid the Circle of any 'miscreants', and she certainly qualified. Plus, she only surrendered as we had bested her gang.



Jowan chose to accept the role of assassin, whether or not it succeeded. How many chances and choices to do the right thing does he get? When asked for my opinion, it was for death each time though not by my hand.

[sylvanaerie]

Lady Jess wrote...

senorfuzzylips wrote...

...and it's especially hard to like Irving after reading his journal (in his office during Broken Circle).

But even when I went along with him in one play through, I got the distinct impression that he was as willing to throw my mage under the bus to play politics...

But still, as Ejoslin said, at least Wynne wasn't your mentor *shudder*

It took until my 3rd mage origin to figure this out. If you help him when he asks, he mentions you'll be rewarded well. And you are, Duncan recruits you and you are now free of the chantry. Duncan didn't just happen to be there at that door...I have a feeling THAT was Irving's doing. A reward for his prized pupil (which Uldred calls you in the Broken Circle test, and other snotty mage apprentices whine about you impressing Cullen, and Irving, etc)

Yes it was.  Duncan even says when you see them with Gregoir at the beginning "This is she?" meaning Irving either sent for him or when Duncan came to the tower Irving suggests the PC mage as a recruit. 
I don't really care for the choices in the Origin. You are either a backstabbing snitch or a complete moron for trusting Jowan.  I wish there had been an option C.  In lieu of that I choose the backstabbing snitch option because it offers more drama.  And later when Jowan asks about her I just lie and tell him Lily was fine.  Boy has been through enough no sense raking him over the coals any more than he has already done to himself.
And I like Irving.  He plays the game with the hand he is dealt and plays it (mostly) well.  His journal was a huge mistake considering what it led to but for the most part he is fun to watch.  (Esp the relationship he has with Gregoir like an old married couple).

[Huojin]

Elhanan wrote...

Jowan chose to accept the role of assassin, whether or not it succeeded. How many chances and choices to do the right thing does he get? When asked for my opinion, it was for death each time though not by my hand.

Oh that. Yeah, I don't blame him for that. All he wanted was to go back to the Circle,which is what Loghain promised him in return for helping get rid of the 'threat' Eamon.

Loghain is a well-known hero of Ferelden & strategist. I can't really fault Jowan for believing his word.

sylvanaerie wrote...
 (Esp the relationship he has with Gregoir like an old married couple).

haha so I'm not alone in seeing this XD

Modifié par Huojin, 02 avril 2010 - 01:04 .

[Elhanan]

sylvanaerie wrote...

Yes it was.  Duncan even says when you see them with Gregoir at the beginning "This is she?" meaning Irving either sent for him or when Duncan came to the tower Irving suggests the PC mage as a recruit. 
I don't really care for the choices in the Origin. You are either a backstabbing snitch or a complete moron for trusting Jowan.  I wish there had been an option C.  In lieu of that I choose the backstabbing snitch option because it offers more drama.  And later when Jowan asks about her I just lie and tell him Lily was fine.  Boy has been through enough no sense raking him over the coals any more than he has already done to himself.
And I like Irving.  He plays the game with the hand he is dealt and plays it (mostly) well.  His journal was a huge mistake considering what it led to but for the most part he is fun to watch.  (Esp the relationship he has with Gregoir like an old married couple).

I must disagree, at least to being restricted in responces. I recently decided to start an evil mage, but this does not mean I have to be honest about my motives. I do not see anything thus far that penalizes me for giving the Good dialogue choices. In fact, such duplicity often seems to yield rewards. As far as I can tell, the only mistake I made was lying to keep the loot obtained during the trumped up escape.
And now that I have seen Blood magic lay out the First Enchanter and three Templars, I may follow that path when it becomes available. But I do not have to be obvious about it.

[Zalbaar]

I actually never liked Irving I thought his voice was very annoying.

[CalJones]

Maybe that's because Irving has the same VA as Oghren.

[nranola]

CalJones wrote...

Maybe that's because Irving has the same VA as Oghren.

...You're kidding me, right? o.o;

But to go right back into topic, I was... disappointed at how Irving wanted to handle that situation with Jowan and Lily. I never pegged him for the type that would resort to such a thing. Reloaded and went for a different path the moment that conversation was over.

[Sarah1281]

Maybe that's because Irving has the same VA as Oghren.

That can't be it; he does Gorim, too, and I  his voice.

[sylvanaerie]

Sarah1281 wrote...

Maybe that's because Irving has the same VA as Oghren.

That can't be it; he does Gorim, too, and I  his voice.

Gorim is AWESOME!  He was the best thing in the DN origin! (well IMO anyway he was)

[sylvanaerie]

Caladhiel wrote...

rak72 wrote...

So I started playing a Mage today (only my 2nd time).  I told Irving that Jowan was planning to escape, and he told me to help throw Lilly under the bus.  Who knew he was such a rat bastard.  I'll never look at him the same again.

On my very first playthrough as a mage, I seriously got the impression that Irving was the Pride demon you face in your Harrowing.   Just before you enter the Fade, he tells you to 'keep your wits about you'. Couple o' fights later, the Pride demon you should have been fighting (why don't you, by the way..?) says exactly the same thing before disappearing. Have been suspicious of Irving ever since.   

That's kinda odd...because thats the impression I got with Uldred's possession, that they hadn't gotten rid of it and the Pride demon had taken its opportunity to possess the ambitious blood mage.  Like it had been hanging around waiting for something better to come along.

I understand the fight, simple killing is a warrior's job.  Mages have to fight with wit instead of brute force.  The test isn't killing the demon its overcoming its temptations which are far more sinister and compelling.

Besides considering the PC Mage beat the demon and (possibly) Uldred didn't...kinda makes me giggle when i think about it.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 03 avril 2010 - 10:47 .

[sylvanaerie]

Caladhiel wrote...

sylvanaerie wrote...

Caladhiel wrote...

rak72 wrote...

So I started playing a Mage today (only my 2nd time).  I told Irving that Jowan was planning to escape, and he told me to help throw Lilly under the bus.  Who knew he was such a rat bastard.  I'll never look at him the same again.

On my very first playthrough as a mage, I seriously got the impression that Irving was the Pride demon you face in your Harrowing.   Just before you enter the Fade, he tells you to 'keep your wits about you'. Couple o' fights later, the Pride demon you should have been fighting (why don't you, by the way..?) says exactly the same thing before disappearing. Have been suspicious of Irving ever since.   

That's kinda odd...because thats the impression I got with Uldred's possession, that they hadn't gotten rid of it and the Pride demon had taken its opportunity to possess the ambitious blood mage.  Like it had been hanging around waiting for something better to come along.

Yes, I always wondered where Uldred picked up his demon...^^

I understand the fight, simple killing is a warrior's job.  Mages have to fight with wit instead of brute force.  The test isn't killing the demon its overcoming its temptations which are far more sinister and compelling.

Thing is, the demon didn't tempt me - or it wasn't very good at it, at least.^^ It wasn't offering ME gold, or freedom, or anything, all it wanted was for me to take Mouse back - not a very great temptation in my eyes. And being a mage, you'd have to be abysmally stupid to be that trustworthy, especially towards beings encountered in the Fade. So I didn't really get the point of the whole thing, and could genuinely show off later about the Harrowing being a cakewalk 

Ahh the temptation isn't in what you want.  Its in calling you a "True mage" one of the few the finest.  The first in a long time that he felt was worthy of the title. (Those others would never have been true mages). You will be an "Enchanter without equal".  He presents himself as a mouse, something tiny and insignificant compared to the magnificence of your PC Mage.  He even tells you he failed his Harrowing to illicit sympathy/pity.  Perhaps even some contempt on PC's part depending on how prideful you play it.  (OH I won't fail I'm too good to fail. I'm Irving's star pupil).  Perhaps the PC even thinks at the time "This is a cakewalk" which is what the Pride Demon is going for.

He isn't a desire demon (who would use temptations like gold, power, sex whatever) to tempt you. His temptations feed your ego into thinking you are sooooo very superior to everyone else.  His expertise is pride and he tries his best to do it (he doesn't succeed but thats the whole point to the test is he shouldn't or it would be game over).  His temptation is all the more insidious than a desire demon who is rather overt in her attempts because they really seem like something someone would think themselves.

Uldred's behavior in the Harrowing chamber sort of mirror those attitudes (they died in service of their betters, better than living with the terrible responsibilities of independence, you are all tools to me kind of mentality).  Or of course it could just be a trait of Pride demons I just thought it rather odd that the pride demon was your test IN the Harrowing chamber and now Uldred was possessed by one.

Modifié par sylvanaerie, 04 avril 2010 - 02:26 .

[nubbers666]

ether way you look at it both sides would get you hanged if duncan didnt show up lol i went with Jowan on mine then executed him and had all the survieing mages on the second mage tower part arrested im gona try to make my self frist enchanter

[Sarah1281]

There should have been the option to say you didn't want to get involved and then just ignore the situationl. Granted, then that Origin probably wouldn't have become a Warden but I don't see why you HAD to either help Jowan or tattle on him only to still help him.

[asaiasai]

I think the real depth of the game comes from the duplicity of some of the main characters, Irving is shrewd and probably in his long life at the tower has seen first hand the unbalanced Chantry justice. In my 5 mage plays i always get Irving to sign the req for the rod you need. See even a novice mage like myself knows how to play the game of politics. I have always considered that my get out of jail free card in case Greagor gets to zealous as the religious types are prone to do. I have never asked Irving to go into the fade, i have tried on several occasions to use Jowan but as he does not have access to party inventory he is pretty weak. I have had to reload a save to just prior to that moment only once, after that i just make sure either Morrigan or Wynne is in my party before i send either into the fade. Morrigan and Wynne, who even specced as heal bots (thank you respec mod) does the fade simply where Jowan just plain blows because of the lack of access to the party inventory. I have never sided with the Templars in my 13 passes so far it just seems so unnatural to me considering how i feel about any organized religion, so if i can thumb my nose at it, even an imaginary one, i will at every turn.



Asai

[sylvanaerie]

asaiasai wrote...

I think the real depth of the game comes from the duplicity of some of the main characters, Irving is shrewd and probably in his long life at the tower has seen first hand the unbalanced Chantry justice. In my 5 mage plays i always get Irving to sign the req for the rod you need. See even a novice mage like myself knows how to play the game of politics. I have always considered that my get out of jail free card in case Greagor gets to zealous as the religious types are prone to do. I have never asked Irving to go into the fade, i have tried on several occasions to use Jowan but as he does not have access to party inventory he is pretty weak. I have had to reload a save to just prior to that moment only once, after that i just make sure either Morrigan or Wynne is in my party before i send either into the fade. Morrigan and Wynne, who even specced as heal bots (thank you respec mod) does the fade simply where Jowan just plain blows because of the lack of access to the party inventory. I have never sided with the Templars in my 13 passes so far it just seems so unnatural to me considering how i feel about any organized religion, so if i can thumb my nose at it, even an imaginary one, i will at every turn.

Asai

You can also get Sweeney to sign it too really easily which leads to a funny conversation with him about the pranks mages play on each other (and the templars).  I always get Leorah to let me clear the spiders in exchange for her signing but I never get her to do it.  I prefer getting a couple minor balms/potions from her and doing the spiders for extra XP prior to leaving for Ostagar.

[Sabriana]

That's not a bad idea Asai, it never even occured to me that Irving could sign the form. Both my mages help Jowan and Lily, and I figured if he signs it, my PCmage is giving them away.

In my first and unspoiled playthrough, my mage went to Irving, but simply because he had this thingie over his head, and she had no clue why. Of course, she was locked into ratting out the lovers, and after hearing Irving in regards to Lily, I reloaded and felt perfectly justified. My mage only spoke to him because of the game mechanic. The way I RPed my mage would not have her give the pair away. Especially after finding out about being made tranquil, and what that entails.

*Shudders* Dead women/men walking - a thoroughly horrid practice.



My liking for Irving took a nose-dive after reading the journal. He's very lucky that my mages had some residual good-will toward him, plus, they didn't want the other mages to suffer or die. Strangely enough, all the mages in the room sort of auto-die after Uldred is defeated. I still find that odd and silly. In my first play-through I thought it was because of something I had my PC do/not do, and reloaded the whole sodding fight with Uldred and his abominations.



I agree with you Sylvanaerie. The demon's temptation is directed at the mage's ego, not in gold and silver. What use would that be for a mage. Well, other than having the means to insert themselves into Godwin's lyrium-pushing scheme

[Sabriana]

Well, the mages really don't have a lot of self-esteem, seeing as how they are treated by the 'mundanes' the templars, the chantry, and everyone in between. I do believe that the chantry actually tries to keep the mages docile and self-loathing/conscious. It worked admirably with poor Keili after all.

Of course, great game that DA:O is, it allows for a myriad of explanations. To me, personally, stroking the life-long oppressed mage's ego, could be terribly tempting.