100 réponses à ce sujet

[macage]

 As the title implies, I'm running a CEF Rogue romancing Alistair.

He's been hardened to the cruelty of Ferelden life and I thought I had him convinced marrying Anora was in our best interest and nothing would change between us.

After that, I offered to save Loghain, Alistair took the crown as planned, but said our relationship was over.

Did I screw up the dialogue choices with Alistair?  I could have sworn that the above scenario was possible.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Nope, if you spare Loghain, any love between you is over, regardless. At the end, if you make Loghain sacrifice himself to the archdemon, Alistair gets over being mad, but your relationship is still over.

[macage]

You'd think by now he'd realize that she knows what's best for him and to get with the program.



Thanks for the answer!

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

Heh. Not entirely true. Loghain is Alistair's Achilles heel. His weakness. It isn't a matter of what's best, it's a matter of a burning hatred for the man who robbed Alistair of the first "family" that accepted him for who he was. He is about as willing to put aside his hatred for Loghain as a human noble would for Howe, or a city elf for Vaughn.

[RBCharger]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

Heh. Not entirely true. Loghain is Alistair's Achilles heel. His weakness. It isn't a matter of what's best, it's a matter of a burning hatred for the man who robbed Alistair of the first "family" that accepted him for who he was. He is about as willing to put aside his hatred for Loghain as a human noble would for Howe, or a city elf for Vaughn.

Good point, Skadi.  I always thought of him as being childish about the Logain thing but when you put it that way I will have a little more understanding of Alistair.  Even when I am not a noble or a city elf, I still can't tolerate Howe or Vaughn living after what they did to my PCs from earlier incarnations. 

[Merilsell]

At that point - especially when your PC is in a relationship with Alistair-- she is his most important person and he trust her more than anything that she would support him in this case. If you choose Loghain to join the order, it's utter, unforgivable betrayal for him -- in everything he believed in and YOU (the player) are the one doing this to him. The one person alas the PC he loves and trust chooses the side with his enemy...Loghain, the only person he can't ever forgive what he had done, who robbed him off his father-figure and people who were family to him. Honestly, could you still love such a "betrayer" afterwards?



Being able to continue your relationship after what you have done to Alistair at Landsmeet would be just plain wrong itself and would make his character unbelievable. Easy as.



Ps: I did this once out of curiosity and his sentence "I had these dreams, but they don't matter anymore..." with big sad puppy eyes staring at my PC before storming off as a broken man let me reloading instantly...



It's like kicking a puppy. Horrible.

[errant_knight]

Merilsell wrote...

At that point - especially when your PC is in a relationship with Alistair-- she is his most important person and he trust her more than anything that she would support him in this case. If you choose Loghain to join the order, it's utter, unforgivable betrayal for him -- in everything he believed in and YOU (the player) are the one doing this to him. The one person alas the PC he loves and trust chooses the side with his enemy...Loghain, the only person he can't ever forgive what he had done, who robbed him off his father-figure and people who were family to him. Honestly, could you still love such a "betrayer" afterwards?

Being able to continue your relationship after what you have done to Alistair at Landsmeet would be just plain wrong itself and would make his character unbelievable. Easy as.

Ps: I did this once out of curiosity and his sentence "I had these dreams, but they don't matter anymore..." with big sad puppy eyes staring at my PC before storming off as a broken man let me reloading instantly...

It's like kicking a puppy. Horrible.

Apparently if you have him executed when he's in love he says 'I should have realized I didn't deserve to be that happy. Ow.... That's one I'll never, ever see in person.... I had my PC say "I don't think we should see each other anymore' out of the same kind of curiosity, and that was bad enough!

[Raiil]

It didn't surprise me to learn that Alistair would essentially storm off if you saved Loghain. I've never been able to do it- I despise the man more than I want the achievement for having recruited all potential team mates. (Sign of good writing! )



I agree with Merilsell completely; the PC- even if he hates them- is their only fellow. It would be twice as bad if he's in love with the PC because that's essentially betrayal on every level. Luckily for my PC's Alistair, she hates Loghain in a way that a Cousland hates a Howe. And she lets him decapitate the bastard every single time.

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

I've only spared Loghain once for the achievement, and with a PC that was simply too much of a **** to romance Alistair. Made him marry Anora. That in itself was unbelievably cruel for me. But I had to do it for full play experience, to see what having Loggy around was like, as well as getting to know him better. As enlightening as that was, it made me only more willing to execute him in later playthroughs. He just seemed to stubbornly set and dangerously delusional to want to let live.

[sylvanaerie]

Skadi_the_Evil_Elf wrote...

I've only spared Loghain once for the achievement, and with a PC that was simply too much of a **** to romance Alistair. Made him marry Anora. That in itself was unbelievably cruel for me. But I had to do it for full play experience, to see what having Loggy around was like, as well as getting to know him better. As enlightening as that was, it made me only more willing to execute him in later playthroughs. He just seemed to stubbornly set and dangerously delusional to want to let live.

I wondered about that.  Loghain never lives in my playthroughs but once I wanted to see what was in his head and let him be recruited (got an achievement I didn't know I would) and really hated that I lost Alistair.  Then talking to Loghain in camp made me wonder why I ever tried.  The only answers that gave me approval were those that pandered to his delusions and said basically "ya you were right."  Well, fortuneately for Alistair I hate Loghain almost as much as I hate Vaughan or Howe so I Queen of Hearts him every time.

[nos_astra]

Yes, talking to Loghain made me hate him even more. I just couldn't go for the nice, soothing answers because I actually agree with Alistair that Loghain has to pay - I just wanted to stick to the rules that say "until one party yields". I told Loghain to shut up and that I expected him to die in the Joining and that I don't expect him to live through the Blight.

If you go for that ending (when Alistair leaves) Loghain and Arl Eamon are the only ones who ackowledge what you have done. When you tell Loghain that he cost you Alistair, he says: "You can thank me later for that." I wanted to shred him to pieces for his arrogance. Arl Eamon seemed almost genuinely sad. He told me that he does understand Alistair and that he hopes that he'll be able to contact him when he has calmed down.

My PC was in a romance with Alistair and it was really painful to see him go but I wanted to import that ending to Awakening for continuity's sake (worked like a charm, a lot of dialogue took on a double meaning).

If they ever meet again, well, I think letting him go would do more for their emotions than force him to marry Anora.

Edit: How many spelling mistakes can I possibly make in such a short text? More than you'd imagine.

Modifié par klarabella, 02 avril 2010 - 12:25 .

[nos_astra]

double

Modifié par klarabella, 02 avril 2010 - 12:18 .

[JakePT]

This is what I love about this game. Characters aren't just playthings you can manipulate to do what you want, and it's possible to make decisions they won't like, even if they're rational. Not every person is purely rational and not everyone is going to agree with your every decision, so why should every character be?
I also personally think that complaining (not that the OP was) about how other characters react and being unable to manipulate events to your liking is completely missing the point. I think players should 'live' with the consequences of their decision and play on.
In my playthrough I romanced Morrigan, and that doesn't end happily, no matter what, and obviously while I'd kind of prefer it to end happily, I love that the game plays with your emotions that way and doesn't always give you what you want and, just like in the real world, events aren't always under your control.
Part of the potential of the interactivity of games when it comes to storytelling isn't how the player can control events, it's how despite the players best efforts they can't necessarily control events, I think that mixture of control and helplessness has extraordinary dramatic potential.
But that's just me.

Modifié par JakePT, 02 avril 2010 - 12:21 .

[CalJones]

@ klarabella - that's the thing, two people's character experiences will differ vastly depending on how they speak to them. I've always been nice and understanding to Loghain and thus he's one of my favourite characters and I look forward to the part of the game where I can recruit him. Likewise, I could never understand the Anora hate because I'd never given her any reason to betray me, so she's always been pleasant (if rather business-like).



Alistair, on the other hand, is definitely an appealing character in game where you are nice to him. In games where I've made decisions he didn't like (eg sacrificing Isolde), he became a jerk. In those games I have no problem allowing Anora to execute him.

[SurelyForth]

klarabella wrote...


If you go for that ending (when Alistair leaves) Loghain and Arl Eamon are the only ones who ackowledge what you have done. When you tell Loghain that he cost you Alistair, he says: "You can thank me later for that." I wanted to shred him to pieces for his arrogance. Arl Eamon seemed almost genuinely sad. He told me that he does understand Alistair and that he hopes that he'll be able to contact him when he has calmed down.

My PC was in a romance with Alistair and it was really painful to see him go but I wanted to import that ending to Awakening for continuity's sake (worked like a charm, a lot of dialogue took on a double meaning).

If they ever meet again, well, I think letting him go would do more for their emotions than force him to marry Anora.

The thing I hate most about sparing Loghain (and there are a lot of things, yet I'll probably do it again because sometimes I love to feel terrible) is how glib he is when you first speak to him at camp. My PC had destroyed the man she loved, and married him off to another woman, and he's making jokes about how I must think he's a monster.

I chose to pair Alistair/Anora up both times I took Loghain, if only to save Alistair from throwing away his potential. I also like that you can talk to him after the Landsmeet and see exactly what you've done to him and, again, after the coronation he still has such an aversion to you. It elicits a lot of complex emotions in me, more than any other ending.

[AOPotter]

I usually spare Loghain. As a Warden you have to set aside your personal feelings. Loghain has still many supporters. Kill him and they will work against you or at the very least not support you with all their might. Let him live and you have all of Ferelden united against the Blight. Alistair in this scene clearly shows that he is not Warden material and I am quite frankly surprised that you do not get the option to chop of his head yourself. After all: no one leaves the Wardens. He might feel I betray him but he (by walking away) betrays our cause. Our sole reason for existence. 

Loghain might be a ******, but he does not know that the Wardens are the only ones that can kill an Archdemon. Which is bad writing. Revealing that information would have made the Wardens position in society absolutely secure. The orders of the medieval world (Templars etc) would have killed for a boon like that. And the Wardens are just that - a military order. So it would have been in their self-interest to get that information out.
It would not even have reduced the amount of recruits since there are always idio...ehm good people who are willing to sacrifice themselves on behalf of their politicians, priests or crazy ideas. 

But again, this is just bad writing. It becomes quite obvious with the "We can sense Darkspawn"-bit. Having per lore an ability like that and then getting ambushed left and right by darkspawn is just plain silly. Good writing would have given the Wardens an ability that would not have to be sacrificed for the sake of game mechanics. Like "When you become a grey Warden your butt glows purple under the full moon."

[CalJones]

Elps - you summed up how I feel about Alistair pretty well there.



AOPotter - Yes, I can understand the Wardens wanting to keep much of the information secret - the mortality rate of the ritual, the shortened life expectancy, nightmares and decline in fertility. Not great selling points. A few might consider it a worthwhile sacrifice during a Blight, but I don't think you'd get many takers in between Blights which is, let's be honest, most of the time.

On the other hand, the archdemon sacrifice is something that happens only every few hundred years, to one person. Many would view such a death as a tremendous honour. It adds romance to the order and as such can only increase their mythic status.

[nos_astra]

AOPotter wrote...
I usually spare Loghain. As a Warden you have to set aside your personal feelings. Loghain has still many supporters. Kill him and they will work against you or at the very least not support you with all their might. Let him live and you have all of Ferelden united against the Blight. Alistair in this scene clearly shows that he is not Warden material and I am quite frankly surprised that you do not get the option to chop of his head yourself. After all: no one leaves the Wardens. He might feel I betray him but he (by walking away) betrays our cause. Our sole reason for existence.

That works if you want to play a fully committed Grey Warden who is even willing to let others pay. But just like Alistair none of my PCs go down the route "whatever it takes", what they want is to save the people and not just end the Blight. Big difference that in my book elevates them above the average Warden, who is supposed to be rather narrow-minded.

That's why my F!Cousland was very rude to Loghain. She doesn't switch off her emotions. She's confused and broken after the Landsmeet. And if she ever meets Alistair again it's not quite sure if she'll kiss or kill him. Both is equally possible. ;-)

Modifié par klarabella, 02 avril 2010 - 02:09 .

[MutantSpleen]

If my dwarf noble can get over what Bhelen did to her for the good of Orzammar, then Alistair should be able to as well. 

Besides we learn from Elric in RtO the only thing that would have happened if Loghain had committed his forces to the battle would have been the death of all his forces. Cailan, Duncan and the rest of the Grey Wardens still would have died.  Which if you save Loghain he makes that point, should he have sacrificed all of his men to follow Cailan's idiocy, leaving the country totally defenseless?

Alistair should be mad a Cailan. It was his delusions of grandeur that made him not wait for the Orlesians.

So no Loghain did not kill Duncan and the rest of the Wardens.  Alistair seems oblivious to that fact though, so I won't romance him anymore.  Plus he also really pisses me off becasue if you do save Loghain, he actually throws a temper tantrum and will not do his duty as a Grey Warden, thats nearly unforgivable itself.

Maybe I am just mad Alistair dumped me. <_<

[AOPotter]

klarabella wrote...

That works if you want to play a fully committed Grey Warden who is even willing to let others pay. But just like Alistair none of my PCs go down the route "whatever it takes", what they want is to save the people and not just end the Blight. Big difference that in my book elevates them above the average Warden, who is supposed to be rather narrow-minded. 

It is actually the other way around. Because I do NOT want to let others pay I have to act this way. The sooner and the more forceful the army can act (the sooner our internal conflict ends) the better. Alistairs feelings are of no concern to me when I can stop a second Lothering. Those kids that loose their fathers and mothers to the darkspawn or over some useless dispute between nobles of the two factions have feelings to. As have the women who get dragged underground to become broodmothers. Getting Loghain on my side immediately roots out any opposition I might have among the nobles and clears the way to fight the Blight with full strength. 

Alistair knows what is at stake and still he throws a hissy fit. With Loghain we have only 4 people in Ferelden who can slay the archdemon - and one of those walks away. Alistair puts his personal feelings above the well-being of every other creature (even spiders become corrupted by the Blight) in Ferelden. What if Rhiordan, Loghain and I fail? Alistair, even if he grows on you through the adventure, is at that point a traitor to every living thing. He runs away from his duty and the responsibility that only he and 2 other guys can bear. (At that time we do not know whether Loghain will survive the Joining.) And one must really ask: if he is bad Grey Warden material - how can he be good king material? If he is only thinking about himself when the lives of everyone are at stake - how much more likely is it that he thinks only about himself when nothing is at stake? Do I really want a human Bhelen on the throne?

[SurelyForth]

MutantSpleen wrote...

If my dwarf noble can get over what Bhelen did to her for the good of Orzammar, then Alistair should be able to as well. 

Besides we learn from Elric in RtO the only thing that would have happened if Loghain had committed his forces to the battle would have been the death of all his forces. Cailan, Duncan and the rest of the Grey Wardens still would have died.  Which if you save Loghain he makes that point, should he have sacrificed all of his men to follow Cailan's idiocy, leaving the country totally defenseless?

Alistair should be mad a Cailan. It was his delusions of grandeur that made him not wait for the Orlesians.

So no Loghain did not kill Duncan and the rest of the Wardens.  Alistair seems oblivious to that fact though, so I won't romance him anymore.  Plus he also really pisses me off becasue if you do save Loghain, he actually throws a temper tantrum and will not do his duty as a Grey Warden, thats nearly unforgivable itself.

Maybe I am just mad Alistair dumped me. <_<

I've mentioned it before but I find it so difficult to see Alistair's behavior as "throwing a temper tantrum". He is making logical points in a slightly louder voice than he normally uses. Loghain had just been throwing out lies and blatant over-exagerations (never mind his whole break when he loses the Landsmeet) in a similar tone, yet I would not call what he is doing a temper tantrum and I hate the man. Heck, I've heard people get angrier waiting in line at the store.

Alistair has no way of knowing that the battle was lost. The events of RTO are never acknowledged outside of Ostagar, and it's entirely possible to not even do that until after that Landsmeet. As far as he knows the plan was for Loghain to lead his troops in when the beacon was lit and, instead, Loghain turned. I think the fact that Loghain then blames the Wardens for Cailan's death (Alistair would recognize that as a blatant smear campaign) AND tries to kill the remaining Wardens makes his actions at Ostagar seem exactly as deliberate and villainous as the original cutscenes wants us to think they are. He also poisoned Eamon (Alistair's other father figure) and indirectly caused the whole catastrophe in Redcliffe.

Also, Alistair does not know that Wardens are needed to slay the Archdemon. That is not something you can throw at him. All he knows is that Wardens are best equipped to deal with the Blight and, as such, adding one to that number isn't going to make an appreciable difference in the outcome. As far as he is concerned, nothing Loghain has done indicates that he would be willing to apply his military genius to his efforts with the Wardens (this is a man who managed to forget all about the enemy that defeated him at Ostagar, after all) and the Wardens would be better off without him.

I don't think what Loghain did could be compared to what Bhelen does, but I say this because my DN was actually a bit impressed by him. I think Loghain is best compared to Howe, who my HN's would never serve beside in a million years. Screw "tantrums", they would stab him in the heart before Riordan even got a second syllable out.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 02 avril 2010 - 03:04 .

[nos_astra]

AOPotter wrote...
Alistair knows what is at stake and still he throws a hissy fit.

No, he doesn't know anything besides you'll have to end the Blight without him.
He doesn't know that you don't have time to wait for reinforcements from the other Grey Wardens. That is revealed at Redcliffe. He doesn't exactly know why a Grey Warden is needed. When he leaves there are at least two Grey Wardens in Ferelden to fight the Blight. And if there are only two of them then this is your doing since you wouldn't see reason and kill Loghain at the Landsmeet. You chose a man of dubious loyalty who still has to survive the Joining over him. If that's how much he's worth to your PC then there is obviously no loss to your cause if he's leaving.

Technically your PC's arrogance and self-rightousness is to blame if you fail without him. ;-)

And that's still no worse than you have been since Ostagar plus - either way, Loghain is - hopefully - out of the way now (if you're right). So Alistair leaving is a bad decision he'll regret deeply later. But it's nothing compared to what your love nugget Loghain has done to help the Blight spread unchecked.

As you see, I'm on Alistair's side even if I let my PC spare Loghain. It's major betrayal to Alistair and this one time he doesn't put duty over anything else. You can treat him as bad as you want to, he'll stay but not this time.

I love him to pieces for that - even if my PC is left heartbroken. And when the Blight is over she isn't happy at all that her choice seemed to work. Little does she know what would have happened otherwise. Oh, it's such a tragic ending to the romance.

Modifié par klarabella, 02 avril 2010 - 03:41 .

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

Yeah when i first played i got the end game codex that made me freak out.



Somthing like Alistar was true to his word and never returned to ferelden after taking a ship out years later a man saw a drunk man at a tavern claiming he once was a heir to the throne.



That endiing was messed up as all hell.

[OrlesianWardenCommander]

But anyway back to the point who would want to spair loghain he might as well allied with the darkspawn as he single handedly almost destroyed ferelden made us criminals and to add icying to the cake he killed duncan! Poor Duncan he didn't deserve such a death from the cause of the betrail. But aside of all the facts i hate loghains guts i felt like garbage spairing him i instantly had to replay to get everything right.