100 réponses à ce sujet

[AOPotter]

Ok - I admit, Alistair might not have known that Wardens are needed to kill the Archdemon. (Which leaves us with the question: what exactly he learned from the Wardens during his time with them - apart from drinking.) Still my original point stands: a united Ferelden is better than a divided one (some Nobles decide to side with Loghain no matter what - bald guy being the prime example.)



And Loghain is not my love nugget - he is just the thing that I must accept to get all of the troops with the best possible morale. And without some noble holding back because he still has a score to settle. If I kill him I make him a martyr, then I have to get his sympathizers in line, then I have to fight the lies he told about us etc. If I keep him I do not have to fight these battles and can fully concentrate on the blight.

[daheidi]

I feel bad after typing all this stuff that people probably don't want to read especially if they are Alistair fans... but I've already spent some time on this so I would rather post than delete it forever, especially since AOPotter seems to be trying to make a point and getting rammed for it. So, if you love Alistair, please don't read what I wrote and just skip to the very bottom for the summarized version of what happens. I'm not really bashing the heck out of him or anything, but I can never be sure what people would take offense at. I know we all have our differing opinions here, and for me it's like being stabbed whenever I hear the "Alistair is great and Loghain should die a million deaths" thing, so I would rather spare the pain for somebody who holds Alistair dearly. If you don't really care, then you can read ahead anyway. I just don't want to start an argument or e-rage that will spiral out of control after the first 47 pages of angry banter... just because you don't agree with me... I'm just worried that this is where the thread is going, that's all.





It seems if Alistair leaves your party, you just automatically go to "Neutral"? Or 0 approval rating -- whatever it is when the person is no longer there... (Like Oghren in Awakening.) At least, it seemed that way to me.



The strange thing is, even when my evil character had Alistair at -100 approval (Alistair said all sorts of bad things about my guy at this point, haha) he gave PC the whole speech about ultimate betrayal and not expecting HIM (PC) of all people of making a move like saving Loghain... I thought that was pretty funny -- I know it's the writing, etc., but I couldn't help but laugh at that one...I mean, c'mon... -100, guy.



In any case, the only time I allowed Loghain to die in Landsmeet was my first playthrough where my mage dude was best buddies with Alistair and he -reluctantly- allowed Alistair to do the deed... Thought it was an uncomfortable decision to make (my PC was not one to kill anybody who had surrendered previous to this), but hey, they are best friends who stick together, right?? That really bugged me... I mean, what OF the duty as a Warden that he spoke so highly of? Isn't it unfair that he forces you to choose between his friendship and ... well, everything else?? I understand getting angry in the moment, then maybe coming back afterwards and going, "Oh hey.. sorry about that; I was really mad that you wanted to save the dude that was hounding us this whole time, but now that I think about it... Duncan probably would have done the same thing. Let's get on with this Grey Warden thing!" etc...



Why am I dismayed by Alistair's reaction? More than anything, I trust Riordan, the Senior Grey Warden who was imprisoned by Howe and probably tortured, who had his brothers, other Grey Wardens, barred from the border and killed... This man stops you and gives you a sound choice that makes SENSE as a Grey Warden... And if he says there is a reason that this should be done, then I believe him! The PC would do right to listen to Riordan when he tells you he has a plan for Loghain. Why wouldn't you?? The fact that Alistair does not do the same seems a bit ridiculous to me. Does he think Riordan is stupid, or something? Or that he is secretly harboring some plot to let Loghain live so that we can all go to Duncan's body and defile his beard? Riordan's suggestion is obviously not meant to be a personal insult, but Alistair takes it as some offense against him. Alistair goes on about being a Warden and how we're cheapening the Wardens, etc... Well, maybe he forgot what being a Warden was all about -- but easier said than done, right? Instead, you get guilt tripped into letting him get his revenge, which sickens me to think about... I don't get why we can't have Loghain taken away to be executed instead of being stabbed in front of everybody... I thought that was in very bad taste, but that's probably a personal thing. To each their own... (Loghain himself tells you later that it would have been the best option anyway, so maybe you are doing him a favor by stabbing him in the kidneys. :-P)



In any case, my next character, female elf, started a romance with Alistair that slowly went into a horrible downward spiral (long story, but I'm sure anybody who has had an elven female romance with Alistair might get my drift). I made him marry Anora out of spite and recruited Loghain. Long rambling paragraphs to answer your question, my character in that playthrough let Loghain do the US and when she came back to speak with Alistair afterwards, he seemed to be full of remorse and said something to the likes of "Oh well maybe you were right/Loghain wasn't SO bad?? BTW I'm still not joining you, @#$&" I forgot what the exact words were, of course, but it made me want to slap him. Oh, so NOW you agree with the PC! And you still hate her anyway! Ha hahaha.ahahaha!! (That's crazed laughter, by the way.) When my PC asked why Alistair hated her so much (again, forgot the wording), he said he didn't. But... what? You're still not talking to me? Really?? I mean, we're all friends and jokes when things are easy, but when it comes to growing up and making a difficult decision I'm a big walking 'kick me' sign, right?



I don't understand. So, you agree in the end that the PC made the right choice, but you still think that the PC should have gone with your plan, Alistair?? I don't get it! What does this mean?? Why is Alistair like a woman? (By the way, I'm a woman) Why are you doing this, Alistair?? I get the point that he set aside his duty this once to fight for what he believes is right in the end. BUT -- if he does agree with you afterwards that you were right, then that means he thinks he made the bad choice but he STILL punishes you for it. IS that bad writing?? Or is Alistair "throwing a tantrum"? It's not just the Landsmeet, but the fact that he's had all this time to think about it and still goes on until the end of time that doesn't make any sense to me! I would understand if he said to your PC, "Hey, I STILL think you are an ultimate jerk for letting Loghain live at the Landsmeet." but clearly this is not the case.



Anyway... The rest, is history -- nine playthroughs later, I just cannot kill Loghain after those first two games. Just as some people cannot stand to ever let Loghain live, I cannot stand to ever let him die -- I am missing two achivements (Alistair US and All Endings) because of it but it's just not worth it for me. People say they are convinced Loghain should die after talking to him, but for me, after talking to him, I just cannot kill this man. But that is a rant for another day. I think I managed to answer your question somewhere in there! Sorry for taking up space.







For people who don't want to read my verbal garbage, here is the summary (since I feel we are getting kind of off topic from the original poster's question):



-100 APPROVAL --> SAVE LOGHAIN --> ALISTAIR BOO HOO --> ALISTAIR MANTRUM

+100 APPROVAL --> SAVE LOGHAIN --> ALISTAIR BOO HOO --> ALISTAIR MANTRUM

+100 LOVE --> SAVE LOGHAIN --> ALISTAIR BOO HOO --> LOGHAIN US --> ALISTAIR AGREES WITH YOU (RELUCTANTLY) --> ALISTAIR MANTRUM ULTIMATE VERSION

[Taritu]

CalJones wrote...

@ klarabella - that's the thing, two people's character experiences will differ vastly depending on how they speak to them. I've always been nice and understanding to Loghain and thus he's one of my favourite characters and I look forward to the part of the game where I can recruit him. Likewise, I could never understand the Anora hate because I'd never given her any reason to betray me, so she's always been pleasant (if rather business-like).

Alistair, on the other hand, is definitely an appealing character in game where you are nice to him. In games where I've made decisions he didn't like (eg sacrificing Isolde), he became a jerk. In those games I have no problem allowing Anora to execute him.

On the playthrough where I did the blood ritual, I wound up really disliking Alistair.  Of course, that was before I knew that there were no consequences for spending a couple weeks running off to the mage's tower to save Eamon's wife, a person whose selfishness had cost a ton of lives.

But I've never let Loghain live.  I think I will on my male noble run through.  I figure he's hard hearted enough to make the calculation that if he's marrying Anora letting her father be killed is a bad idea, whatever he thinks of the man.

Modifié par Taritu, 02 avril 2010 - 04:42 .

[nos_astra]

AOPotter wrote...
Ok - I admit, Alistair might not have known that Wardens are needed to kill the Archdemon. (Which leaves us with the question: what exactly he learned from the Wardens during his time with them - apart from drinking.)

[smilie]../../../images/forum/emoticons/lol.png[/smilie] I heard he does a good impression of Warden Gregor (or what's his name?) after a few years outside of Ferelden.

We don't know how much knew recruits are supposed to know. Outside of a Blight there's no use for that knowledge and that Alistair and the PC are the only Wardens left is a unique situation. I have no idea why he doesn't know but he doesn't.

And Loghain is not my love nugget - he is just the thing that I must accept to get all of the troops with the best possible morale. And without some noble holding back because he still has a score to settle. If I kill him I make him a martyr, then I have to get his sympathizers in line, then I have to fight the lies he told about us etc. If I keep him I do not have to fight these battles and can fully concentrate on the blight.

You can roleplay that, of course. Only from metagaming do we know that it is unneccessary and that chopping his head off will do.

Edit: The best roleplaying reason I ever heard for sparing Loghain was because your HNM wants to marry Anora. If he's a calculating power-grabbing dick he'll feed Loghain to the Archdemon and have Alistair executed.

Modifié par klarabella, 02 avril 2010 - 04:42 .

[daheidi]

Taritu -- do you mean Arl Eamon? I don't remember having to go to the mage's tower to save Anora so now I am confused.



By the way, spoilers, etc. for the HMN but you have a very good idea there if you plan on marrying Anora.

[Taritu]

Killing Loghain is nothing but justice. The man has committed awful crimes. This is most clear if you're a noble or city elf, but every warden knows it. Everything Howe did he did with Loghain's permission. There may be reasons to let him live, but it is an injustice, and Alistair is right about that.



As for RTO, I don't buy the henchman's line about how Cailan knew it would be a loss. That requires me to believe that Cailan is a complete moron, since it wasn't a battle he had to fight. He could have simply waited behind the walls for reinforcements--either from Orlais, or from Eamon.

[Taritu]

daheidi wrote...

Taritu -- do you mean Arl Eamon? I don't remember having to go to the mage's tower to save Anora so now I am confused.

By the way, spoilers, etc. for the HMN but you have a very good idea there if you plan on marrying Anora.

Oops, Eamon's wife (whose name escapes me), editing.  Thanks.

Modifié par Taritu, 02 avril 2010 - 04:43 .

[MutantSpleen]

Taritu wrote...

CalJones wrote...

@ klarabella - that's the thing, two people's character experiences will differ vastly depending on how they speak to them. I've always been nice and understanding to Loghain and thus he's one of my favourite characters and I look forward to the part of the game where I can recruit him. Likewise, I could never understand the Anora hate because I'd never given her any reason to betray me, so she's always been pleasant (if rather business-like).

Alistair, on the other hand, is definitely an appealing character in game where you are nice to him. In games where I've made decisions he didn't like (eg sacrificing Isolde), he became a jerk. In those games I have no problem allowing Anora to execute him.

On the playthrough where I did the blood ritual, I wound up really disliking Alistair.  Of course, that was before I knew that there were no consequences for spending a couple weeks running off to the mage's tower to save Anora, a person whose selfishness had cost a ton of lives.

But I've never let Loghain live.  I think I will on my male noble run through.  I figure he's hard hearted enough to make the calculation that if he's marrying Anora letting her father be killed is a bad idea, whatever he thinks of the man.

Ack stupiest thing in Origins, that happy feel-good ending to the Conner problem should not be there, it makes absolutely no sense.  Oh let me spend a few days running there and back, I am sure demon Conner will just sit idly by.  <_<

He has only spent every other night raising hordes of zombies but sure he will sit it out for a few days. If you go to the mages tower, when you get back everyone in the castle excpet Conner and Isolde should be dead.  Zombie Teagan!

I won't even allow myself to pick that option now so I always lose points with Alistair.

Modifié par MutantSpleen, 02 avril 2010 - 05:08 .

[daheidi]

what you guys are saying make sense (about the whole Arl Eamon) thing... I guess going to the mage's tower is a bit of meta gaming... though even on my first run I gave it a try... I always presumed doing the blood mage ritual was the "evil" choice and tried to avoid it. Getting yelled at by Alistair doesn't help, either... But considering even Teagan thinks there is no other way (and his other option of just killing Connor, which if I recall correctly, Alistair even comments that is what should be done??)... I guess evil is just relative here.



See, this is what I like about DA -- I think any choice you make in the game would make sense from your PC's point of view... It's very grey and I love that aspect of the game.

[MutantSpleen]

Taritu wrote...

Killing Loghain is nothing but justice. The man has committed awful crimes. This is most clear if you're a noble or city elf, but every warden knows it. Everything Howe did he did with Loghain's permission. There may be reasons to let him live, but it is an injustice, and Alistair is right about that.

As for RTO, I don't buy the henchman's line about how Cailan knew it would be a loss. That requires me to believe that Cailan is a complete moron, since it wasn't a battle he had to fight. He could have simply waited behind the walls for reinforcements--either from Orlais, or from Eamon.

Sorry Cailan was a complete moron. Talk to Duncan prior to the battle. Duncan does NOT want to fight that battle at that time, he thinks its foolish and they should wait for the Orlesians. Duncan knows they are outnumbered and there are not enough Wardens.  Calian would not listen to Duncan's advice and wait.

[goofygoff]

Even if there was an option to "make up" with Alistair and continue the relationship, I wouldn't take it at that point. I honestly like his character up until the Landsmeet, but for my PC, the break up is mutual. From her point of view, the betrayal was a two-way street. She never promised him Loghain's head on a platter, and does not believe it is the Wardens' duty to "bring him to justice". Being forced into the position to either kill a man who has yielded (in front of his daughter, no less), or lose a friend/lover and fellow GW, didn't sit too well with her.

His objections are understandable, and I don't hold -that- against him. It's when he takes his ball and goes home that the line between reasonable argument and temper tantrum is crossed, IMO.


EDIT:  Just wanted to add that this is somehing I actually like about the game.  The fact that I could sour on a relationship, and not because of bad writing or poor character development, but rather the opposite.

Modifié par goofygoff, 02 avril 2010 - 05:10 .

[CalJones]

Yes, I agree about the Redcliffe quest - maybe the bunnies and rainbow ending was added later, much like some films get their endings changed if a test audience doesn't approve of the first cut.

What annoys me about Alistair (if you don't go to the Circle tower) is that if you ask him about killing Connor, he says, more or less, yeah, it's really awful but he's an abomination so I can't see another way around it. Or something to that effect. Then, back at camp, he goes bananas at you for it. Likewise, if you sacrifice Isolde instead, he goes bananas at you for letting her die. (Yes, I'm aware there's away to avoid the approval hit if you choose "I thought that turned out rather well, don't you?" but, I think that's a cheap way out).



daheidi - Mantrum, lol! Great word. I killed Loghain myself in my first game and it made me feel absolutely *awful*. That whole cut scene, what he says to Anora and then her getting splattered with blood is just...brutal. Couldn't do it again.

I let Alistair handle it when I was going for the Warden Commander achievement - it's not quite as emotional when you do it that way, but it still didn't sit well with me.

I believe in redemption where possible - Sten and Zevran get a second chance, so why not Loghain? Riordan's argument is compelling and I'd rather trust the judgement of a senior Warden - one who is willing to forgive despite what he's been through - than some idiot man-child who is screaming "kill him already!"

(It was that line that destroyed any warm fuzzy feelings I had for Alistair and made me re-evalutate him as a character. I had liked him a lot up until that point. Aftewards...not so much).

[nos_astra]

CalJones wrote...
Yes, I agree about the Redcliffe quest - maybe the bunnies and rainbow ending was added later, much like some films get their endings changed if a test audience doesn't approve of the first cut.
What annoys me about Alistair (if you don't go to the Circle tower) is that if you ask him about killing Connor, he says, more or less, yeah, it's really awful but he's an abomination so I can't see another way around it. Or something to that effect. Then, back at camp, he goes bananas at you for it. Likewise, if you sacrifice Isolde instead, he goes bananas at you for letting her die. (Yes, I'm aware there's away to avoid the approval hit if you choose "I thought that turned out rather well, don't you?" but, I think that's a cheap way out).

I'm probably one of the few people who were completely unprepared on their first playthrough and STILL looked frantically for another way to save Connor and his mother and Redcliffe. When Alistair said we might have to kill Connor if he's an abomination I thought something like: Oh sure. That's your templar training speaking, you'll hate me and yourself for doing it!

I asked for another option and it was Alistair who pointed out we could go to the tower.
I spend a few minutes trying to make up my mind if I should take this option or if the village or the castle would be in any danger then. I decided that 2 or 3 days would be ok and that there weren't that many corpses left to be re-animated, so it was unlikely that there would be a new attack. That was my way of thinking. When I made my choice I thought: Screw it, if they are doomed to die because I tried to do the right thing so be it but I won't kill a child or go for blood magic (I played a mage who believed Jowan and tried to help him).

I was relieved to learn that my choice did actually work. I wasn't sure of it but I didn't want to go the easy route.

Yes well, sometimes I wonder if someone looked into my head and found a blueprint of Alistair there.

Modifié par klarabella, 02 avril 2010 - 05:29 .

[Ezio Faraglia]

AOPotter wrote...

I usually spare Loghain. As a Warden you have to set aside your personal feelings. Loghain has still many supporters. Kill him and they will work against you or at the very least not support you with all their might. Let him live and you have all of Ferelden united against the Blight. Alistair in this scene clearly shows that he is not Warden material and I am quite frankly surprised that you do not get the option to chop of his head yourself. After all: no one leaves the Wardens. He might feel I betray him but he (by walking away) betrays our cause. Our sole reason for existence. 

Loghain might be a ******, but he does not know that the Wardens are the only ones that can kill an Archdemon. Which is bad writing. Revealing that information would have made the Wardens position in society absolutely secure. The orders of the medieval world (Templars etc) would have killed for a boon like that. And the Wardens are just that - a military order. So it would have been in their self-interest to get that information out.
It would not even have reduced the amount of recruits since there are always idio...ehm good people who are willing to sacrifice themselves on behalf of their politicians, priests or crazy ideas. 

But again, this is just bad writing. It becomes quite obvious with the "We can sense Darkspawn"-bit. Having per lore an ability like that and then getting ambushed left and right by darkspawn is just plain silly. Good writing would have given the Wardens an ability that would not have to be sacrificed for the sake of game mechanics. Like "When you become a grey Warden your butt glows purple under the full moon."

Less recruits is a possibility, man. If it was a commonly known fact, then it would be helluva lot harder to recruit.
Besides, if it was commonly known, at the end of the joining we would be told "Oh yeah, and you die if you kill the archdemon"

[daheidi]

LOL CalJones -- This is a bug I'm sure, but the funny part was, when I went with the blood ritual route with my evil mage, Alistair wasn't in my party but still managed to disapprove (as in, ghost Alistair disapproves just when you make the decision)... then I got yelled at later so he disapproved twice about it. Craziness!



I agree with you about the Sten and Zevran thing -- I know some would argue that it was the "scale of their crimes" etc... and maybe it wasn't so personal, but I am not about to start that one up. I'm just saying, if your PC is all about that, then... he's all about that, you know?

[AOPotter]

Ezio Faraglia wrote...

Less recruits is a possibility, man. If it was a commonly known fact, then it would be helluva lot harder to recruit.
Besides, if it was commonly known, at the end of the joining we would be told "Oh yeah, and you die if you kill the archdemon"

Really? Especially at this time and age we should be aware that there is no shortage of people willing to die for whatever cause they deem important. (Hint: Moscow in recent news) And that has never been any different:

"Forward, the Light Brigade!"
Was there a man dismay'd?
Not tho' the soldier knew
Someone had blunder'd:
Theirs not to make reply,
Theirs not to reason why,
Theirs but to do and die:
Into the valley of Death
Rode the six hundred.

(The Charge of the Light Brigade, Tennyson)

[LadyZaria]

I happily kill Loghain every time. I will keep him alive once for the achievements, but other than that, he dies.

Loghain is guilty of treason, and whether he surrenders or not, the price for being a traitor is death.

He betrayed the king. He supported the murder of the only other Teryn in Ferelden. Then, for no reason other than to secure his place as regent, he blamed the Grey Wardens. He supports the capture and torture of nobles and others who were loyal to the king. He orchestrated the attempted murder of Arl Eamon.

Everything he did was for himself, and to support his "regency".

As far as Alistair's reaction if you keep him alive, you have to see the situation through Alistair's eyes. In his mind, the Grey Wardens were his family. Being one was the greatest honor one could achieve in his eyes. When you accept Loghain into the Wardens, you are asking him to forget Loghain's crimes. Alistair doesn't waffle his beliefs on the serious issues. And when you try to convince him that the man that killed his brother, tried to kill the only father Alistair ever knew, and then tarnished the Grey Warden reputation by claiming it was the Wardens who betrayed the king, should then JOIN the honorable ranks and be hailed as a hero, of course he's not going to accept it.

If you talk enough with Alistair, you see how deep his hatred for Loghain goes. Asking him to serve next to Loghain is too much. And if you're in romance, of course he's going to take it harder. His beloved is telling him that all the sacrifices they have had to make to reach the Landsmeet is for nothing, and the betrayal hurts him all the more.

As far as trying to say it's politically wise to keep him alive... Not really. First, you've sent a message to the people that being a traitor is ok, because you can just surrender and join the Grey Wardens, which is a dangerous precedent. Second, if you perform all quests for the Landsmeet, making the vote 5-1, the only Loghain hold out is nothing more than a boot-licking lackey that attaches himself to the coattails of whoever is in the best position to make him a profit. Turning men like that is fairly easy.

[Clendyx]

Think about it this way: you spend more time cleaning up after Loghain then you do actually fighting the Darkspawn. He kills the Grey Wardens, and the King, so you have to recruit dwarves, elves, and mages. He gets Jowan to poison Arl Eamon, which causes Connor to go ape**** and summon a demon. He sends Zevran and the crows after you to assassinate you, he starts a civil war, and he lets the Darkspawn invasion spin out of control, as well as kidnapping city elves, letting Arl Howe destroy the Cousland family, letting Arl Howe torture innocents...and after all that is thrown at his face, he swipes it aside and starts a brawl at the Landsmeet. And then you get an option to duel him? I was never so happy as I was at the point when I could just stab that bastard in the ribs with my dual-swords. You spend more time fighting him politically then you do actually killing the Archdemon! I mean, really! The game was trying to tell you pretty freaking clearly that Loghain is a bigger antagonist than the Darkspawn, because you can kill the Darkspawn. You have to practically go out of your way to castrate Loghain, and once you do, he finally says, "Oh, I was wrong, you're not an **** for being a Grey Warden, and now you can either kill me, or let me live and have major consequences." He's a douchebag to the end, and I think Alistair's reaction is clear evidence that the game developers wanted you to see that they had made one of the most ruthless bastards known to man. Period. I hate Loghain with a passion, especially because he claims to have been doing the right thing all along. Which is why he let hundreds of able-bodied men die, while he played chess with the Arls. I rather liked Cailen, too, which is why I would gladly have seen Loghain die and Cailen live. Cailen had more honor in his pinky than Loghain would ever have, regardless of how Loghain drove out the Orlesians. On the flip side, I like Alistair because he's relatable. If you've played through a romance with him, you'll find out that behind his armor and weapons, he's just a nerd, like many of us playing the game are. He's witty, funny, and has a few issues that need ironing out, and he's always nice to you if you actually have a sense of humor. I think he makes a great king, regardless of how he doesn't want to be one. If you've seen his speeches to the troops before attacking the Archdemon, after the deluge if you take Morrigan's way out, or at the funeral if you kill the Archdemon and die, he cuts a stunning figure as King. He may not know politics, but he's as good of a king as Cailen would have been, or even better. He kinda makes me think of King Arthur, though I may be mixing a bit of the Monty Python version of King Arthur in that image. Regardless, the game tried to make it crystal clear that Loghain is an **** and should die, and Alistair is right in throwing a tantrum if you DON'T kill Loghain.

[Sarah1281]

Yes, talking to Loghain made me hate him even more. I just couldn't go for the nice, soothing answers because I actually agree with Alistair that Loghain has to pay - I just wanted to stick to the rules that say "until one party yields". I told Loghain to shut up and that I expected him to die in the Joining and that I don't expect him to live through the Blight.

I never go for the nice, soothing answers (except when I was exploring the dialogue options and he doesn't even eleve you if you say that you don't think he's a monster). We ha a nice conversation plotting his death and he gives helpful suggestions, I asked him what he wanted which seems a reasonable question since you don't have much reason to trust him, I said we were going to have to work together, and said I was glad to have him along because I did think he would be useful and that was why I recruited him. +32 approval, right there. I don't understand recruiing him hoping he would die in the Joining because if you didn't want a recruit then there's no point in not killing him although having Loghain put is life on the line instead of the future King of Ferelden and not expecting him to make it through makes sense.

If they ever meet again, well, I think letting him go would do more for their emotions than force him to marry Anora.

I always make him marry Anora if I spare Loghain and I'm really not sure how I'll manage to spare Loghain with a HNM prince-consort because once he leaves the Wardens...he already left the Templars so he really has nothing else to do or nowhere else to go. I don't want to betray him (in his eyes), choose Loghain over him when he forces the issue, AND send him out in the world with no purpose.

The thing I hate most about sparing Loghain (and there are a lot of things, yet I'll probably do it again because sometimes I love to feel terrible) is how glib he is when you first speak to him at camp. My PC had destroyed the man she loved, and married him off to another woman, and he's making jokes about how I must think he's a monster.

Does Loghain even know that you two were together? He only ever saw you together when he confronted Eamon when you got to Denerim - in which case he barely noticed you much less Alistair - and at the Landsmeet which was hardly a romantic setting. Maybe if you don't make him King (which hasn't happened in my games yet) he says something, but he doesn't bring it up if you marry him to Anora. I thought his first statement about not having the decency to die was more of a challenge and if you suggest magic it turns into a joke. I do wonder how he was supposed to respond, though. He doesn't like Alistair and thinks he is unfit to rule and that Eamon was just using him to try and desose his daughter (which he was). Alistair made the choice to leave the Wardens and turn his back on his duty so you can't expect Loghain to really feel badly about it.

Alistair in this scene clearly shows that he is not Warden material and I am quite frankly surprised that you do not get the option to chop of his head yourself.

Well you either can let Anora kill him if you feel that strongly or he's going to be King and you would be putting your personal feelings over the good of Ferelden just like you think he did if you tried to go after him then. Not to mention the political repercussions...

If my dwarf noble can get over what Bhelen did to her for the good of Orzammar, then Alistair should be able to as well.

This. My DN always has the least sympathy for him of all of my characters because she doesn't just have to put herself in Alistair's shoes, she's been there. If she put Harrowmont on the throne out of veneance than she has no place to condemn Alistair for doing the same and in those games Loghain dies. If she put Orzammar first - and dwarves have more of an opportunity than elves or humans to see that Bhelen is best for Orzammar's survival -  then she can absolutely expect him to put his feelings aside. That said, she thinks Alistair would make a good ruler with Anora there to help him along and she doesn't really want to see him die (but couldn't just let him go because of the rebellion factor) so she always insists on him being King. Since she knew that Alistair would never serve with Loghain, if he's King keeping Loghain around is the only way she could ensure that Alistair lived long enough to be King and Anora wasn't ruling on her own.

(Which leaves us with the question: what exactly he learned from the Wardens during his time with them - apart from drinking.)

There has got to be some year-long adjustment period the Wardens have before telling them any of the other reasons why Joining was a bad idea or else Alistair didn't listen to anything anybody said, which seems unlikely since he does seem to take being a Warden seriously...until you ruin it for him.

Modifié par Sarah1281, 02 avril 2010 - 06:15 .

[ejoslin]

Well, no one said Loghain did GOOD things in DAO. But he was a hero, he saved Ferelden before -- if it weren't for Loghain, the blight would have been Orlais' problem of course.



I'm in the camp that killing him in front of his daughter that way is pretty bad, and it's a plot device.

[Clendyx]

ejoslin wrote...

I'm in the camp that killing him in front of his daughter that way is pretty bad, and it's a plot device.

Oh, sure. Being the Wicked B!tch of the East, she shouldn't have to see the biggest **** in the game get killed. Especially not after she watched him turn into that ****, and supported him at the Landsmeet. I just hate Loghain with a vengence, and after cleaning up after his mess for 62 hours on my first playthrough, I don't wonder why.

<----Sunglasses, 'cause I'm da bomb.

[Efesell]

I'm in the camp that killing him in front of his daughter that way is pretty bad, and it's a plot device.

It does make that scene incredibly uncomfortable.

And I don't even like Anora.

[Addai]

I don't understand the opinion that sparing Loghain is "putting Ferelden first." Ferelden is nearly in ashes largely because of Loghain, and by sparing him you are (metagame aside) pretty much ensuring that the civil war continues, perhaps with an interruption forced on the country by the archdemon. There is plenty of rationale to lop Loghain's head off that has nothing to do with Alistair. In fact, as I played my HNF character, she was ready to spare Loghain out of being starstruck by the Hero of River Dane legend, and considers that Alistair's objections brought her to her senses and led to a more rational decision.

[ejoslin]

Anora never betrays my warden. I know it can happen, but it doesn't have to. And cutting his head off in front of her, no matter what, is pretty awful.

[SurelyForth]

ejoslin wrote...

Anora never betrays my warden. I know it can happen, but it doesn't have to. And cutting his head off in front of her, no matter what, is pretty awful.

It is, but loved ones (still) regularly witness executions. The way it plays out though, with the wave of blood, strikes me as being one of those things (like being able to sleep with Cammen) that some sadist at BW put in for some mean-spirited laughs.

Modifié par SurelyForth, 02 avril 2010 - 06:55 .