100 réponses à ce sujet

[LadyZaria]

Efesell wrote...

I'm in the camp that killing him in front of his daughter that way is pretty bad, and it's a plot device.

It does make that scene incredibly uncomfortable.
And I don't even like Anora.

Yes, but she is queen, and therefore has to preside over any public execution regardless.

It is regrettable, but she's a grown woman, queen, and was just held captive by Loghain when she became a threat to his power. She'll get by.

[Efesell]

It's not that she's there exactly..

It's more that she's standing like a few feet away and is in fact showered with his blood. So it's like.. really Bioware was that strictly necessary?

[Clendyx]

Sure it was, Efesell. They're both jerks.

[LadyZaria]

Efesell wrote...

It's not that she's there exactly..
It's more that she's standing like a few feet away and is in fact showered with his blood. So it's like.. really Bioware was that strictly necessary?

Your reaction is the answer: Absolutley.

They wanted you to feel a little uncomfortable with the execution. They wanted you to question your decision, and no matter how much you hate Anora, feel pity for her.

The scene was done this way not for gratuitous imagery, but to spark an emotional response in the player. Combined with Loghain's farewell to his daughter, it was actually a fairly moving scene, and put together to spark the right kind of emotional response from the player.

If the blood spatter was removed, you wouldn't get that extra emotional kick, and that would have made the scene less engaging.

[Efesell]

I dunno I think the blood splatter just kind of shifts a little close to over the top silliness. Prior to that we get the farewell and Anora pleading and it's a good scene and I swing that sword like a bat and I'm just kind of going "Oh come on now."

[Sarah1281]

I don't understand the opinion that sparing Loghain is "putting Ferelden first." Ferelden is nearly in ashes largely because of Loghain, and by sparing him you are (metagame aside) pretty much ensuring that the civil war continues, perhaps with an interruption forced on the country by the archdemon.

I don't see how sparing him would prolong the civil war. The war started on the issue of succession because there was no clear heir but rather than calling for a Landsmeet, Loghain installed himself as regent, and he demanded that the bannorn follow him even though they had questions about Ostagar. Once the Landsmeet is called, the bannorn agree to accept the outcome of the Loghain duel. Once you win and Alistair and/or Anora is on the throne then the issue of succession is decided.



I don't trust Anora to rule alone. She's too much a politician to deal with things like the Alienage and doesn't have the best track record as 'strong leader' by letting her father run the show. She needs either the PC or Alistair and since in most cases the PC cannot be Anora's King (by virtue of gender and/or origin) then it has to be Alistair, although he could rule alone. Bottom line is, Anora should not rule alone. If the PC has a decent understanding of Alistair, they'll realize that he won't let be King stop him from working to end the Blight and there's a good chance he'll get killed. Hello, solo Anora rule. If, however, they see how Alistair has basically built Loghain up to be this figure of ultimate evil who is responsible for everything that's gone wrong since Ostagar (however valid that interpretation is) then they'll know that he won't accept Loghain as a GW and even if it doesn't occur to them to make Loghain a Warden before Riordan suggests it, it's the only non-metagaming way to make sure that Alistair lives to be King.

[AOPotter]

Addai67 wrote...

I don't understand the opinion that sparing Loghain is "putting Ferelden first." Ferelden is nearly in ashes largely because of Loghain, and by sparing him you are (metagame aside) pretty much ensuring that the civil war continues, perhaps with an interruption forced on the country by the archdemon. There is plenty of rationale to lop Loghain's head off that has nothing to do with Alistair. In fact, as I played my HNF character, she was ready to spare Loghain out of being starstruck by the Hero of River Dane legend, and considers that Alistair's objections brought her to her senses and led to a more rational decision.

What is rational about killing Loghain? 
If you kill him the nobles who supported you will want to take revenge on the nobles who supported him. And all the nobles who supported him will want to cover their behinds and keep their best men close in their castles. Instead of getting all the troops to the frontline we loose men to infighting. He also becomes a martyr. If you think that going against the hero of River Dane is bad, fighting the dead hero of River Dane would be a PR-nightmare. And since you and Alistair are the ones gaining the most from his death the lies he spread about you will be even harder to dispel. Anora will never forgive you her fathers death and you will have a fierce enemy who is skilled enough in politics and (as Queen) close enough to the throne to make constant trouble.

If you spare him all his nobles instantly become your allies. They follow him and he follows you. And Eamons Allies follow you anyway. You have a queen that is thankful. All lies that Loghain told about you are dispelled by the very fact that he himself has become a Warden and rides to battle beside the very Wardens he was fighting.

If there was no Blight - I would agree, off with the head (though not at the Landsmeet and only after a trial). But at the state the country is in the Wardens can not afford to loose potential allies. Yes, that decision might cost you Alistair but in return you (probably) get hundreds of additional troops and volunteers.

[Gilsa]

I shared AOPotter's logic in sparing Loghain. My first game was with my dwarf noble, who also fell into the Alistair (unhardened) romance along the way. He didn't want the crown and I didn't have any intention of putting him in that role. I assured Anora my cooperation and defeated Loghain so we could just move on already, but the game changed drastically at that point. I thought it was a great idea to make Loghain do the joining because in my mind, he was a general of renown and I thought gaining him would also mean I'd get his soldiers to fight against the Blight (along with the other three groups). I thought there'd be a time and place later to deal with Loghain, but Alistair wasn't having any of it. Most people get their heartbreak with the dumping scene -- I had a brother-in-arms walk out in disgust with me, which was a hard pill to swallow. I understood his anger, but I hated how it played out. I was not able to even talk with Alistair nor did I get any closure. At least when he breaks up with the character as a king, he talks it over with them and explains his reasons.

Some people don't understand why this was Alistair's big moment of weakness and they get disgusted with him as a result, but I thought that David Gaider explained it well with (bold is by me for emphasis):

And from where I'm coming from, I say there's some things you shouldn't be able to convince a character to do no matter what your approval rating is. In fact, I would say that from Alistair's perspective your high approval means you should be backing him up -- after all the things you've done, couldn't you see it his way just this once? Making characters too malleable, in my opinion, makes them not human.

Though, once again, Alistair feeling the way he does shouldn't necessarily mean you won't be angry or disappointed in him -- or even want him dead. But I would disagree that, in this case, he would ever back down. Stupid as you think his reasons might be, they're his.

The fact that an Alistair doesn't come back later once it becomes apparent that the confrontation in Denerim is going to happen right away before the Orlesian Wardens can arrive -- that's where I personally think Alistair did the clearly wrong thing. In my mind, it would be his foolish pride getting in the way at that point. As someone else said, he let his thirst for vengeance corrupt him in much the way that Loghain had been corrupted -- absolutely true. And intentional.

Perhaps someone might think it was poorly conveyed, I don't know. I'm all too familiar with the inability to control the narrative completely in such a large game, but that was the intent.

http://social.biowar...435&lf=8#667030

@daheidi -- I read your post. Thanks for sharing. I'm enclosing a link in which the writer discusses how Alistair was written, especially with Landsmeet, in case it answers some of your questions about Alistair's motivations. It might not. His answers made me feel better about standing by my decision to spare Loghain at Landsmeet, that I wasn't actually this horrible, evil person, but that Alistair let his pride get in the way.

http://social.biowar...dex/650435&lf=8

Modifié par Gilsa, 02 avril 2010 - 07:16 .

[Efesell]

He apparently only ever has the one ally in my games, the squirrely noble who will always vote for him.

[Efesell]

Then again I never really treat this decision in a very serious light.

Loghain always dies because I like Alistair far more.

[daheidi]

Hey Gilsa, thanks for sharing! Makes perfect sense to me. My personal pain is when people say that ABC is obviously the right choice and you are wrong and horrible for doing ABZ instead... Alistair is a character and a human being, just like anybody else, and he is bound to make mistakes... but so is 'everybody else'. Issue of pride (and corruption in a sense) seems logical. Your link helped confirm some things for me, but didn't really change my view either way... Alistair and my PCs can agree to disagree, I think, and if we stand in awkward silence at the end and he refuses to budge, then that is his choice too. Never asked him to like me!



It's not that I hate Alistair or anything, really (apologies if I came off as such in my warning above?) -- I don't hate any character in DA, yes, even Arl Howe -- I just do not like the concept of feeling so 'shackled' with Alistair until the Landsmeet portion. That, of course, can be remedied by keeping him in camp for all time, but I think that is a game-mechanic frustration more than anything. As for all DA characters in general, I think they are all fantastic and the layers the writers put into them is astounding. To be able to get this strong of a reaction from the players for these characters shows you how skilled they (the artists/writers) are, even with a game of this scale.



I for one, like looking into the deeper side of things, and there are so many false "surfaces" that you can look under to realize there is still something else underneath this story... Most people love Alistair for their reasons, which I am sure they will be happy to share, while I think Loghain is often overlooked for being "wow this really nasty dude that tries to kill you and stuff and junk". It is a shame to me, really... Even after multiple playthroughs I discover things about this character that make me stop and think. It's tragic to think a man who rose up to fight for his country could fall so hard for what he perceived was the same cause. I think that is the makings of a classical hero by definition -- a hero whose own shortcomings be his ultimate downfall... But as I've said before, that discussion is for another time and place.



To reiterate, this is what I love about the game -- there isn't a 'right way' to do things, in my opinion. What you did for yourself in your game is the correct ending for your character. Things aren't black and white in this game, no babysteps or hand holding, but a lot left unsaid that always leaves you wondering. As our Duncan narrator says at the end no matter which path you choose, you've come this far and made your choice, "but at what cost?"... and I think we can leave it at that.



(And yes, I know -- I really take a video game much more seriously than I should, but... that's my problem!)

[Addai]

AOPotter wrote...

Addai67 wrote...

I don't understand the opinion that sparing Loghain is "putting Ferelden first." Ferelden is nearly in ashes largely because of Loghain, and by sparing him you are (metagame aside) pretty much ensuring that the civil war continues, perhaps with an interruption forced on the country by the archdemon. There is plenty of rationale to lop Loghain's head off that has nothing to do with Alistair. In fact, as I played my HNF character, she was ready to spare Loghain out of being starstruck by the Hero of River Dane legend, and considers that Alistair's objections brought her to her senses and led to a more rational decision.

What is rational about killing Loghain? 
If you kill him the nobles who supported you will want to take revenge on the nobles who supported him.

And if he lives, he can continue to stir up opposition to you, particularly if you dethrone Anora.  Much as Bhelen is an ass, he is right to execute Harrowmont rather than allowing the head of the rival faction to live on to rebel another day.

If you spare him all his nobles instantly become your allies. They follow him and he follows you. And Eamons Allies follow you anyway. You have a queen that is thankful. All lies that Loghain told about you are dispelled by the very fact that he himself has become a Warden and rides to battle beside the very Wardens he was fighting.

IF he bends the knee to you.  Without metagame knowledge, what about your PC's interaction with Loghain leads you to believe that he will suddenly become a loyal footsoldier of the "Orlesians," as he sees the Grey Wardens?

Keeping in mind that he once bent the knee and swore oaths to Cailan, too.

And how it is a good PR move for you to suddenly recruit the man that you just spent the entire Landsmeet proving is a traitor and criminal?  You undermine your own case and make it look like you were just trying to gain favor for the crown.

If there was no Blight - I would agree, off with the head (though not at the Landsmeet and only after a trial). But at the state the country is in the Wardens can not afford to loose potential allies. Yes, that decision might cost you Alistair but in return you (probably) get hundreds of additional troops and volunteers.

The Blight makes it all the more important to have the country united, to be sure.  However, as I pointed out above, trusting Loghain to suddenly turn around and become your patsy is far from the obvious leadership decision to accomplish that.

It's become conventional wisdom that Alistair's reaction is a purely emotional one with no sound basis, and IMO that is not the case.  What Loghain did to Duncan adds vehemence to Alistair's opinion, but that doesn't invalidate it.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 avril 2010 - 08:38 .

[Skadi_the_Evil_Elf]

AOPotter wrote...

What is rational about killing Loghain? 
If you kill him the nobles who supported you will want to take revenge on the nobles who supported him. And all the nobles who supported him will want to cover their behinds and keep their best men close in their castles. Instead of getting all the troops to the frontline we loose men to infighting. He also becomes a martyr. If you think that going against the hero of River Dane is bad, fighting the dead hero of River Dane would be a PR-nightmare. And since you and Alistair are the ones gaining the most from his death the lies he spread about you will be even harder to dispel. Anora will never forgive you her fathers death and you will have a fierce enemy who is skilled enough in politics and (as Queen) close enough to the throne to make constant trouble.

If you spare him all his nobles instantly become your allies. They follow him and he follows you. And Eamons Allies follow you anyway. You have a queen that is thankful. All lies that Loghain told about you are dispelled by the very fact that he himself has become a Warden and rides to battle beside the very Wardens he was fighting.

If there was no Blight - I would agree, off with the head (though not at the Landsmeet and only after a trial). But at the state the country is in the Wardens can not afford to loose potential allies. Yes, that decision might cost you Alistair but in return you (probably) get hundreds of additional troops and volunteers.

Kill or spare Loghain, the country is STILL in turmoil. Sparing him doesn't give you anything more than killing him does. Remember, there are alot of nobles who are heavily pissed off at Loghain, and simply are not going to get behind you simply because Eamon accepts it. Loghain was pretty brutal in trying to surpress the civil war, and alot of people, noble and commoner alike, have lost a great deal because of him. You lose as much as you gain.

The story is set that no matter who you save or kill, who you put on the throne, Ferelden will remain in a heavy state of unrest for quite some time, and will be far from unified. The justifications for sparing Loghain as opposed to turning him into worm food are equal and just as valid as each other. It all comes down to how you roleplay, and how your character views such things.

For someone trying to play uber-Warden:

-Sparing Loghain is a very pragmatic descision. He could potentially be a useful asset. Another meat shield, another warden, ect
-Killing Loghain is also pragmatic. Since Ostagar, he has done nothing but impede your efforts while making the Blight spread faster. He has gone beyond being a nuisance, a sworn enemy of your Order. Since the Joining doesn't enforce loyalty to you, you have no guarantees he might pull something at the last miniute. Killing him is removing a major threat to you.

For someone playing a "good" character: 

-Sparing Loghain because you do not wish to kill an opponent who surrendered. Or, you want to give him a chance to redeem himself
-Killing Loghain is also a "good" act. He has committed so many horrible crimes, has ripped the country apart, furthered the Blight through incompetance. You wish to bring justice for his multitude of victims. Letting him become a Grey Warden would allow him to become a Hero in the eyes of many, making his crimes get swept aside, and sends a bad message to people with similar aspirations.

For an "evil" playthrough:

-Sparing Loghain because you like everything he did, you only wish he hadn't ****ed up so much and got the job done better. You like his style. Maybe now you can give him a few pointers.
-Killing Loghain because you like killing anyone who opposes you for any reason. or people who just look at your wrong.

Justifications can exist, no matter how you look at it.

[CalJones]

Thanks for the quote, Gilsa. Glad to see I am not reading Alistair's character wrong.



Addai - the issue is that Alistair's view of Loghain is as skewed as Loghain's view of the Wardens. It absolutely is an emotional reaction. We have absolutely no proof that Loghain could have saved Cailan and the Wardens had he charged, since we have no view of the battlefield. The beacon was late, so it's conceivable that the battle was already lost at that point...although it may not have been. Loghain thinks so (see his RtO dialogues) though what he perceived may not have been accurate. We just don't know.

Alistair, however, just assumes it's all Loghain's fault. He is basically suffering from survivor's guilt (evidenced by his conversation with the Guardian in the Gauntlet) and is looking for someone to blame. Loghain is an easy target.

True enough, Loghain does some very questionable stuff during the course of the game (poisoning Eamon, selling the elves, and picking the worst possible allies in Uldred and Howe) but Alistair is mostly upset with the loss of Duncan, and Ostagar itself is a grey area. If you try to use it at the Landsmeet, it doesn't go down well with the banns, precisely for that reason.

As for trusting Loghain, he has absolutely nothing to gain from turning on you at that point. Anora's place on the throne is assured (I'm pretty sure you can't spare Loghain without having Anora rule alone or with Alistair/male Cousland) and Fereldan is united. You've done what he wanted to do, but couldn't and he does respect you for it. Whether you want to trust him or not is your own decision but I've never felt that I couldn't trust him. Hell, you can be a complete ass to him and he'll still follow you and throw himself on the archdemon if you ask him to. That's more integrity than Alistair has, if things don't go his way.

[Raiil]

I didn't particularly care that she got covered in her dad's blood. She could have turned away. Pretty stupid to be that close to a man swinging a sword (since I always allow Alistair to execute him) in the first place.





I don't doubt that Loghain was once a good person, but I see him as being rabid. He's gone too far. And he's gone power mad- he had a crown made for himself, for pity's sake. There's no way for the PC to know that Loghain will understand the severity of the situation if he undergoes the Joining and survives. He's shown himself to be beyond reason.





I just think that he's beyond redemption, from the POV of a character who can't know how he's going to react or even survive the Joining. It's because of him that Ferelden's chance of surviving the Blight is slim. It's because of him that the country is disunited at a time when it needs to stand together more than anything. And it's because of Loghain that they spent the last year sleeping on dirt as a wanted fugitive around the country. I would find it insulting not to kill the bastard.

[Addai]

CalJones wrote...

Alistair, however, just assumes it's all Loghain's fault.

Who else is there to blame?  While Cailan was ultimately in charge, the battle plan at Ostagar was Loghain's and he pronounced it sufficient, his only objection being that Cailan risked too much by taking the van.  All of this is beside the fact of Loghain's other actions before and after Ostagar- poisoning Eamon being a huge indicator that Loghain was treasonous even apart from his retreat at Ostagar.

Whether you consider Ostagar a grey area or not is entirely up to your RP perspective.

As for trusting Loghain, he has absolutely nothing to gain from turning on you at that point.

You just said that Loghain's mistrust of the Wardens is irrational- and I agree with you there.  So how do you see him suddenly turn "reasonable" and pliable?

Anora's place on the throne is assured (I'm pretty sure you can't spare Loghain without having Anora rule alone or with Alistair/male Cousland) and Fereldan is united. You've done what he wanted to do, but couldn't and he does respect you for it. Whether you want to trust him or not is your own decision but I've never felt that I couldn't trust him. Hell, you can be a complete ass to him and he'll still follow you and throw himself on the archdemon if you ask him to. That's more integrity than Alistair has, if things don't go his way.

Once again, that is metagame + player subjectivity.  All of which is understandable, but doesn't make a case that the opinion to execute Loghain (whether your PC shares Alistair's view or not) is a priori an irrational one.

Modifié par Addai67, 02 avril 2010 - 09:23 .

[HoonDing]

My only female character who had 'romanced' Alistair didn't feel much incentive to keep the relationship when the latter showed his 'true colours' after taking the deal with Loghain.



In fact, she was relieved that she could then immediately burn this unfortunate fling from memory by having said subject executed. At least the lad didn't die as a virgin.

[Walina]

Compnions more humans ? I don't agree because humans can forgive or try to understand each other.

For me, how Alistair react at Landmeet when you spare Loghain is the same thing when Velanna never felt any regret toward killing innocents humans, so that's just made her a ulter b**** like Morrigan who disapppear with the baby : total selfiness unecessary trait of human that I want to se in the a game since real life is enough ****ty.

Modifié par Walina, 02 avril 2010 - 09:43 .

[nos_astra]

virumor wrote...

My only female character who had 'romanced' Alistair didn't feel much incentive to keep the relationship when the latter showed his 'true colours' after taking the deal with Loghain.

In fact, she was relieved that she could then immediately burn this unfortunate fling from memory by having said subject executed. At least the lad didn't die as a virgin.

Does the word insane mean anything to you?

[AOPotter]

Addai67 wrote...
IF he bends the knee to you.  Without metagame knowledge, what about your PC's interaction with Loghain leads you to believe that he will suddenly become a loyal footsoldier of the "Orlesians," as he sees the Grey Wardens?

Keeping in mind that he once bent the knee and swore oaths to Cailan, too.

And how it is a good PR move for you to suddenly recruit the man that you just spent the entire Landsmeet proving is a traitor and criminal?  You undermine your own case and make it look like you were just trying to gain favor for the crown.

His speech when he yields in front of all the nobles leads me to believe he will follow me. And after that he can not betray me any more. It would prove to the people that followed him because he was a hero that he is indeed a traitor.
And it is good PR because i come out as a honorable, just and forgiving man/woman/elf instead of a vengeful regent-killer. First the Grey Wardens kill the King (per Loghain propaganda) and then they kill the Regent - wonder how that goes with the populace. There is no time to have a big "It was all Loghains fault!"-campaign in all the papers. (Most of the peasants can not read anyway.)

Riordan says at the landsmeet that there are compelling reasons to have more than 3 Wardens. (I mean, that guy was tortured - if he can forget his treatment and accept Loghain these reasons must be quite compelling. So it would make sense to spare Loghain just by request of a senior Grey Warden.) 

And lets be honest: Cailan was a fool. (Only a fool would hope for the appearance of an Archdemon.) And so is Alistair. Handing the a country over to a guy who would rather follow than lead and only wants to be king to see someone killed is not really a good idea. For kingdoms and tyrannies stupidity and weakness in leadership is the worst possible thing. Worse than cruelty, a foot fetish or flatulence.

Modifié par AOPotter, 02 avril 2010 - 09:57 .

[Addai]

AOPotter wrote...

His speech when he yields in front of all the nobles leads me to believe he will follow me.

It would be reasonable to question your judgement if one speech by a man you've just convicted as a traitor makes it all better.

And it is good PR because i come out as a honorable, just and forgiving man/woman/elf instead of a vengeful regent-killer.

The king's justice is not revenge, it is good leadership.  What does Loghain announce about you, Alistair and Eamon if you lose the Landsmeet?  If he was your advisor, he would no doubt tell you to do just what Alistair tells you to do.

First the Grey Wardens kill the King (per Loghain propaganda) and then they kill the Regent - wonder how that goes with the populace. There is no time to have a big "It was all Loghains fault!"-campaign in all the papers. (Most of the peasants can not read anyway.)

Judging by how things are going even before the Landsmeet, it was Loghain's and Howe's propaganda campaign that was not going well.  Riots in Gwaren and Highever, outright rebellion in the Bannorn, Anora herself tells you that Denerim has been in turmoil since Ostagar and per Kylon that is more pro-GW than anti.

Riordan says at the landsmeet that there are compelling reasons to have more than 3 Wardens. (I mean, that guy was tortured - if he can forget his treatment and accept Loghain these reasons must be quite compelling. So it would make sense to spare Loghain just by request of a senior Grey Warden.)

There's no reason why that 3rd or 4th or 5th Warden has to be Loghain, the man who would have wiped the country clean of all Grey Wardens if he had been able to get away with it.  As he nearly did.

And lets be honest: Cailan was a fool. (Only a fool would hope for the appearance of an Archdemon.) And so is Alistair. Handing the a country over to a guy who would rather follow than lead and only wants to be king to see someone killed is not really a good idea. For kingdoms and tyrannies stupidity and weakness in leadership is the worst possible thing. Worse than cruelty, a foot fetish or flatulence.

Ferelden under Anora has been such a grand place to live...  Besides, as above, it is the Warden who is showing weakness by sparing Loghain, and Alistair who is showing backbone.

[Vegielamb]

daheidi wrote...

Alistair goes on about being a Warden and how we're cheapening the Wardens, etc... Well, maybe he forgot what being a Warden was all about -- but easier said than done, right? Instead, you get guilt tripped into letting him get his revenge, which sickens me to think about... I don't get why we can't have Loghain taken away to be executed instead of being stabbed in front of everybody... I thought that was in very bad taste, but that's probably a personal thing.

^ I totally agree with this logic. This is how I ened up saving him on my first play through without meaning to. Killing him in front of everyone...even those who agreed with him is a really bad PR nightmare. Drag him off to prison, yes. Execute him later, yes. But killing him like that really isn't smart when you've already been made suspect in the minds of many of the nobles.

Once Alistair started his tantrum in front of everyone, there was no way I could side with him becoming king. He just destroyed his credibility in front of the people who would be his peers. He ended up running off and getting drunk in the ending I got.

daheidi wrote...

I don't understand. So, you agree in the end that the PC made the right
choice, but you still think that the PC should have gone with your plan,
Alistair?? I don't get it! What does this mean?? Why is Alistair like a
woman? (By the way, I'm a woman) Why are you doing this, Alistair?? I
get the point that he set aside his duty this once to fight for what he
believes is right in the end. BUT -- if he does agree with you
afterwards that you were right, then that means he thinks he made the
bad choice but he STILL punishes you for it. IS that bad writing?? Or is
Alistair "throwing a tantrum"? It's not just the Landsmeet, but the
fact that he's had all this time to think about it and still goes on
until the end of time that doesn't make any sense to me! I would
understand if he said to your PC, "Hey, I STILL think you are an
ultimate jerk for letting Loghain live at the Landsmeet." but clearly
this is not the case.

It became clear to me that Alistair had been spoiled by his childhood in Redcliffe. He's a lonely, sad, spoiled kid who has lived a sheltered life and doesn't understand just how good he's had it. I don't hate him, but he isn't ready to be a king anywhere.

Sarah1281 wrote...
I don't trust Anora to rule alone. She's too much a politician to deal
with things like the Alienage and doesn't have the best track record as
'strong leader' by letting her father run the show.

I don't think anyone trusts Anora, but Alistair venting his emotions in a childish tantrum in front of every noble in Ferelden smacks of epic level stupid. Anora may be a politician, but Alistair is a fool. Anora is strong, and she can take care of herself, so having her as an ally is a smart move as long as you keep a close eye on her. Alistair would have a hard time winning respect from the nobles after that....

Modifié par Vegielamb, 02 avril 2010 - 10:21 .

[Vegielamb]

AOPotter wrote...

Addai67 wrote...
IF he bends the knee to you.  Without metagame knowledge, what about your PC's interaction with Loghain leads you to believe that he will suddenly become a loyal footsoldier of the "Orlesians," as he sees the Grey Wardens?

Keeping in mind that he once bent the knee and swore oaths to Cailan, too.

And how it is a good PR move for you to suddenly recruit the man that you just spent the entire Landsmeet proving is a traitor and criminal?  You undermine your own case and make it look like you were just trying to gain favor for the crown.

His speech when he yields in front of all the nobles leads me to believe he will follow me. And after that he can not betray me any more. It would prove to the people that followed him because he was a hero that he is indeed a traitor.
And it is good PR because i come out as a honorable, just and forgiving man/woman/elf instead of a vengeful regent-killer. First the Grey Wardens kill the King (per Loghain propaganda) and then they kill the Regent - wonder how that goes with the populace. There is no time to have a big "It was all Loghains fault!"-campaign in all the papers. (Most of the peasants can not read anyway.)

Riordan says at the landsmeet that there are compelling reasons to have more than 3 Wardens. (I mean, that guy was tortured - if he can forget his treatment and accept Loghain these reasons must be quite compelling. So it would make sense to spare Loghain just by request of a senior Grey Warden.) 

And lets be honest: Cailan was a fool. (Only a fool would hope for the appearance of an Archdemon.) And so is Alistair. Handing the a country over to a guy who would rather follow than lead and only wants to be king to see someone killed is not really a good idea. For kingdoms and tyrannies stupidity and weakness in leadership is the worst possible thing. Worse than cruelty, a foot fetish or flatulence.

Also, becoming a Gray Warden prevents Loghain from being able to object to the Gray Wardens doing their job. That means future good PR

What did Alistair expect anyway? We already have an assasin, a murderer, and a totally unethical witch in the party. City elf Wardens are criminals. Cheapen the Wardens? What?

[LadyZaria]

AOPotter wrote...

His speech when he yields in front of all the nobles leads me to believe he will follow me. And after that he can not betray me any more. It would prove to the people that followed him because he was a hero that he is indeed a traitor.

He has two supporters: Arl Howe and Bann Ceorlic.

Arl Howe gets killed prior to the Landsmeet, and his Arldom given to the Wardens, regardless of outcome.

This leaves only Bann Ceorlic as his only true follower. Ceorlic is the son of the man that murdered Moira (Maric's mother) so clearly, treason is not a major concern for him.

And it is good PR because i come out as a honorable, just and forgiving man/woman/elf instead of a vengeful regent-killer. First the Grey Wardens kill the King (per Loghain propaganda) and then they kill the Regent - wonder how that goes with the populace. There is no time to have a big "It was all Loghains fault!"-campaign in all the papers. (Most of the peasants can not read anyway.)

Or, you come off looking like an idiot that can be turned with a few pretty words, causing the nobles that supported you in the Landsmeet to question your judgement, and possibly completely lose faith in you and withdraw their forces to protect their own lands only.

As far as the peasantry, assuming you've been playing as a "good guy" and have helped others out, then word of your quests to help the common man will have spread, and you've already been turned into a Robin Hood kind of character, and peasants eat that kind of stuff up.

Riordan says at the landsmeet that there are compelling reasons to have more than 3 Wardens. (I mean, that guy was tortured - if he can forget his treatment and accept Loghain these reasons must be quite compelling. So it would make sense to spare Loghain just by request of a senior Grey Warden.)

Because trusting a man that has already run away in battle to stick around again is a great idea.... Riordan's logic makes sense, but there is no reason why you should believe that Loghain would be willing to make that sacrifice.

And lets be honest: Cailan was a fool. (Only a fool would hope for the appearance of an Archdemon.)

Cailan may have been a bit of a fool, he was not stupid. He was perfectly willing to wait for reinforcements. Loghain's pride and plan to depose his king (considering Howe murdered the Cousland family a couple days *prior* to the Battle of Ostagar, Loghain quite clearly knew Cailan would not be around long. Howe was Loghain's toady. And as shown in your dialogue with Cailan, if the King had pulled out of Ostagar prior to facing the horde, Howe would have been dealt with swiftly. It is obvious Howe (and by extension, Loghain) knew that Cailan wasn't coming back.

And considering Cailan left the tactics up to Loghain, it is obvious this betrayal was lined up well in advance.

And so is Alistair. Handing the a country over to a guy who would rather follow than lead and only wants to be king to see someone killed is not really a good idea.

Alistair is not a fool. As Eamon says, he has all the training, and is not too proud to seek advice when he needs it. As for his lack of desire to lead, um... duh? To lead requires a certain amount of ambition. And an ambitious bastard quickly leads to being a dead bastard. If he had tried to develop strong leadership capabilities during his trainings, he would have been dealt with rather than risk him coming to take the throne from his brother.

And he steps up to see justice done, not just to "kill someone". Yes, he was angry and there was a selfish angle there, but the fact of the matter is that Loghain was a traitor to the crown (twice, considering he not only as much as murdered Cailan, but he then turned around and acted against his own daughter as soon as she became a threat to *his* power. He never intended to be a regent. He was just used the word to keep the nobles from getting stirred up. Make no mistake, he saw himself as King), destroyed the Couslands, attempted to murder Eamon, engaged in illegal slave trade, etc, etc, etc. Letting him live is a dereliction of duty.

For kingdoms and tyrannies stupidity and weakness in leadership is the worst possible thing. Worse than cruelty, a foot fetish or flatulence.

As I said, Alistair is not stupid. He is willing to lead, and can do so. He's just always had to quash his leadership skills to avoid being "taken care of". Now that he is king, his heart is in the right place, he knows quite a bit (if you really pay attention to the dialogue throughout the game, he does his best to ensure the fairest end to any conflict is reached. He simply left the final decision to you.).

[Addai]

Vegielamb wrote...

What did Alistair expect anyway? We already have an assasin, a murderer, and a totally unethical witch in the party. City elf Wardens are criminals. Cheapen the Wardens? What?

Nothing any of those people have done comes close to the scale of Loghain's crimes and treachery... as you have just spent the entire Landsmeet convincing everyone.  The only reason you are forced to cobble together a ragtag band of fighters is because Loghain had scapegoated your order for Cailan's death and forced you to live as criminals.

Ironically, forced you to live just the way the Orlesians forced him and Maric to operate once upon a time.