100 réponses à ce sujet

[Mikka-chan]

It's strange how many different opinions there are on this.



My 'good' characters almost always spare Loghain (save for my dwarf noble who was romancing Ali, but, well, she put Harrowmont on the throne), as did my childish amoral mage. My 'I am a Warden that is all' colder characters do not. Alistair makes it very clear in the dialog if you question it that he is not going to tolerate Loghain's presence. It's a choice between them, and Alistair is more valuable.



He's actually simply more valuable because he's already a Gray Warden. You still have to put Loghain though the joining: in your experience, that's a 2/3 chance he won't make it. What happens if he chokes and dies? Ali's gone, Rioden scratches the back of the head, and it's just the two of you then: great work, hero. And even if Loghain does survive: Alistair has, during the last year or two, helped kill two high dragons, tumbled through the deep roads while sorting out succession crisis-es, survived encounters with werewolves and dalish and walked away a hero, been trapped in the Fade...



And Loghain has basically had everything he did fall apart on him. We can go 'oh, no, it was (howe, the player characters) fault', but seriously- everything crashes around him, and all he does is brood and then finally break out and call all the nobles at the Landsmeet traitors. At that point, to my Warden's that are all up about being Warden's, he needs to prove to my character that he will be more useful to her then Alistair is. And, unfortunately, he doesn't.



That doesn't mean I don't like Loghain: he's one of my favorites, if only because I find him quite the interesting character. And, for the record: I have nothing against Alistair storming out of the Landsmeet if you spare Loghain- in fact, I would think lesser of him if he didn't. It's when he doesn't show up, say, on the roof as an uncontrollable ally like the Teagan or the Archmage that I see him as having betrayed himself far more neatly then the PC could betray him by choosing Loghain. And I think that's the saddest part.

[AOPotter]

Addai67 wrote...



a) It would be reasonable to question your judgement if one speech by a man you've just convicted as a traitor makes it all better.

The king's justice is not revenge, it is good leadership.  What does Loghain announce about you, Alistair and Eamon if you lose the Landsmeet?  If he was your advisor, he would no doubt tell you to do just what Alistair tells you to do.

c) Judging by how things are going even before the Landsmeet, it was Loghain's and Howe's propaganda campaign that was not going well.  Riots in Gwaren and Highever, outright rebellion in the Bannorn, Anora herself tells you that Denerim has been in turmoil since Ostagar and per Kylon that is more pro-GW than anti.

d) There's no reason why that 3rd or 4th or 5th Warden has to be Loghain, the man who would have wiped the country clean of all Grey Wardens if he had been able to get away with it.  As he nearly did.

e) Ferelden under Anora has been such a grand place to live...  Besides, as above, it is the Warden who is showing weakness by sparing Loghain, and Alistair who is showing backbone.

a) I have convicted no one. I have merely presented evidence. The conviction is what this thread is about. 
At that point of the story we do not have a king. We just have the justice of the "man who wants to be king". Alistair has not been crowned yet.
c) We actually do not know what the people think. Some of the people we meet believe Loghain, some the Wardens. The nobles do not rebel against Loghain because they believe the Grey Wardens are innocent but because he is a commoner who wants to be king.
d) If it was that easy Riordan could have grabbed some guys from the street. But he wanted Loghain.
e) Metagaming. We do not know at that point what kind of Queen Anora would make. From the info we get beforehand however she was quite efficient while Cailan was hunting Dragons, Fairies and the Unicorn. We do know however that Alistair would make a horrible king. He even tells us so.

[nos_astra]

Mikka-chan wrote...
That doesn't mean I don't like Loghain: he's one of my favorites, if only because I find him quite the interesting character. And, for the record: I have nothing against Alistair storming out of the Landsmeet if you spare Loghain- in fact, I would think lesser of him if he didn't. It's when he doesn't show up, say, on the roof as an uncontrollable ally like the Teagan or the Archmage that I see him as having betrayed himself far more neatly then the PC could betray him by choosing Loghain. And I think that's the saddest part.

Even if he wanted to he could not have known that the fight is going to take place when it does.

[Addai]

AOPotter wrote...
a) I have convicted no one. I have merely presented evidence. The conviction is what this thread is about. 

You have presented evidence and then decided to trivialize it all?  Don't quit your day job and become a prosecutor.

At that point of the story we do not have a king.

I use this as a general term for feudal justice.

c) We actually do not know what the people think. Some of the people we meet believe Loghain, some the Wardens. The nobles do not rebel against Loghain because they believe the Grey Wardens are innocent but because he is a commoner who wants to be king.

It doesn't really matter why they are rebelling, the point is that they are.

e) Metagaming. We do not know at that point what kind of Queen Anora would make.

Actually, yes we do.  Because... she is queen.  And as she likes to remind everyone, she has been the one in charge all along since Maric's death.  While the country descended into civil war and is nearly destroyed by a Blight.

We do know however that Alistair would make a horrible king. He even tells us so.

Oh, so you do take Alistair's word on something?  LOL

Modifié par Addai67, 02 avril 2010 - 10:44 .

[AOPotter]

Addai67 wrote...

You have presented evidence and then decided to trivialize it all?  Don't quit your day job and become a prosecutor.

Its one thing to kill someone in battle. Its another to slaughter someone who has yielded. It is not trivializing to accept the surrender of someone who has been soundly defeated.

c) We actually do not know what the people think. Some of the people we meet believe Loghain, some the Wardens. The nobles do not rebel against Loghain because they believe the Grey Wardens are innocent but because he is a commoner who wants to be king.

It doesn't really matter why they are rebelling, the point is that they are.

It matters a lot. Someone who is rebelling against a regent is quite likely also prone to rebel against prowlers and bastards. So unless they are fighting for me i can not be sure that they will not also be fighting against me.

e) Metagaming. We do not know at that point what kind of Queen Anora would make.

Actually, yes we do.  Because... she is queen.  And as she likes to remind everyone, she has been the one in charge all along since Maric's death.  While the country descended into civil war and is nearly destroyed by a Blight.

Yah. My bad - should have written "sole ruler" instead of queen.

We do know however that Alistair would make a horrible king. He even tells us so.

Oh, so you do take Alistair's word on something?  LOL

His words and his actions. The way he lets me guide his every step during the whole game. (Morrigan insults him with that in Lothering I think.) 

[LadyZaria]

[quote]AOPotter wrote...

Its one thing to kill someone in battle. Its another to slaughter someone who has yielded. It is not trivializing to accept the surrender of someone who has been soundly defeated.[/quote]

And it's another to leave a traitor and criminal go unpunished. He has commited many, many crimes. The Landsmeet, by supporting you, has shown they believe his guilt (and for nobles, the Landsmeet would have been the jury for him anyways).

[quote][quote]
c) We actually do not know what the people think. Some of the people we meet believe Loghain, some the Wardens. The nobles do not rebel against Loghain because they believe the Grey Wardens are innocent but because he is a commoner who wants to be king.[/quote]
It doesn't really matter why they are rebelling, the point is that they are.
[/quote]
It matters a lot. Someone who is rebelling against a regent is quite likely also prone to rebel against prowlers and bastards. So unless they are fighting for me i can not be sure that they will not also be fighting against me.[/quote]

And the forces that supported you against Loghain (which if you did all the vote related quests is 5 out of 6) aren't going to turn against you after, what they will percieve as a terrible lack of judgement, you let Loghain live?

You have no more guarantees there. If anything, it is more likely they will turn against you than Loghain's stalwart supporters, as his supporters keep their eyes on what will be most profitable to them, not true loyalties.

[quote][quote]
e) Metagaming. We do not know at that point what kind of Queen Anora would make. [/quote]
Actually, yes we do.  Because... she is queen.  And as she likes to remind everyone, she has been the one in charge all along since Maric's death.  While the country descended into civil war and is nearly destroyed by a Blight.[/quote]
Yah. My bad - should have written "sole ruler" instead of queen.
[quote][quote]
We do know however that Alistair would make a horrible king. He even tells us so.[/quote]
Oh, so you do take Alistair's word on something?  LOL
[/quote]
His words and his actions. The way he lets me guide his every step during the whole game. (Morrigan insults him with that in Lothering I think.)
[/quote]

As I've said, he's probably been raised to avoid leadership roles because it could make him appear as a threat to Cailan's rule if word of his birthright got out.

Yes, he allows you to make the final decisions, but he makes his own stance perfectly clear, and consistently pushes to see each of the 4 crises you encounter prior to the Landsmeet are dealt with as righteously as possible. He is perfectly capable of making these decisions on his own. He simply allows you to be the mouthpiece of the group.

[AOPotter]

LadyZaria wrote...

a) And it's another to leave a traitor and criminal go unpunished. He has commited many, many crimes. The Landsmeet, by supporting you, has shown they believe his guilt (and for nobles, the Landsmeet would have been the jury for him anyways).

And the forces that supported you against Loghain (which if you did all the vote related quests is 5 out of 6) aren't going to turn against you after, what they will percieve as a terrible lack of judgement, you let Loghain live? 

You have no more guarantees there. If anything, it is more likely they will turn against you than Loghain's stalwart supporters, as his supporters keep their eyes on what will be most profitable to them, not true loyalties.

c) As I've said, he's probably been raised to avoid leadership roles because it could make him appear as a threat to Cailan's rule if word of his birthright got out.

Yes, he allows you to make the final decisions, but he makes his own stance perfectly clear, and consistently pushes to see each of the 4 crises you encounter prior to the Landsmeet are dealt with as righteously as possible. He is perfectly capable of making these decisions on his own. He simply allows you to be the mouthpiece of the group.

a) I do net let him go unpunished. He can still die during the Joining or in the coming battle. I am merely turning him into a useful asset as opposed to a dead liability. You do not agree on that point - but that is just personal preference. No need to argue further about that.

Exactly. 5 out of 6. With Loghain its 6 out of 6. Since every guy who has a vote will have power comparable to that of Eamon that one vote is a lot of men. 

c) He has been raised to avoid leadership. He is the senior Warden and he avoids making decisions. Unlike Sten  (a real leader and thus not entirely liked by the players) Alistair never stands up to me. He never pulls rank. I am not his mouthpiece - I am his brain from the beginning in Lothering to the end. So how exactly is he a good leader and king? Does someone wave a magic wand and says: "And now you have mad skillz at ruling!"? The only time he wants to have his way is to get revenge. He does not want to become king because he wants to make Ferelden a better place or because as a king he can command all the resources to fight the blight - he only wants to become king to see Loghain die. Wrong person and wrong reasons.

[Clendyx]

How come I never got any replies? T-T

[CalJones]

Mikka-chan - that's the most rational argument I've seen for choosing Alistair over Loghain. Thank you for adding a sensible voice to the discussion.

Clendyx - it was the scary wall of text you put up. Try paragraphs next time.

AOPotter - yes, Alistair's lack of leadership skill is also the reason he never gets to be sole king in any of my games. Perhaps in time he could, but time's a commodity we don't have after the Landsmeet. He compliments Anora rather well, though, since each has the qualities the other one lacks. (I can't comment on female Couslands since everyone plays theirs differently).
Of course, it's also perfectly legitiamate for a power-hungry PC to put a weak Alistair on the throne and then insist on being his wife or chancellor. But let's face it, we're not doing that because he's a strong leader.
I do agree with AOPotter that an Alistair who doesn't want to be king out of duty or any desire to lead Fereldan out of its troubles, but only in order to have revenge, is not a man I want to put on the throne.

Modifié par CalJones, 03 avril 2010 - 07:15 .

[nos_astra]

CalJones wrote...
AOPotter - yes, Alistair's lack of leadership skill is also the reason he never gets to be sole king in any of my games. Perhaps in time he could, but time's a commodity we don't have after the Landsmeet. He compliments Anora rather well, though, since each has the qualities the other one lacks. (I can't comment on female Couslands since everyone plays theirs differently).
Of course, it's also perfectly legitiamate for a power-hungry PC to put a weak Alistair on the throne and then insist on being his wife or chancellor. But let's face it, we're not doing that because he's a strong leader.

His leadership skill is heavily depending on how you play your PC. Like everything else it is up to you how you play your PC.

You think your PC is full of awesome and any kind of criticism at his/her decisions is sacrilege? Have it your way then.
You play your PC as a reluctant leader out of circumstances who is merely the voice of the group while often looking to Alistair for advice? Also possible to roleplay.

The latter would have a different opinion on his leadership skills, even though Alistair himself doesn't see that he is in fact leading the leader. Not to mention the PCs influence can bring Alistair to recognize his abilities and be a great King without anyone's further assistance.

CalJones wrote...
I do agree with AOPotter that an Alistair who doesn't want to be king out of duty or any desire to lead Fereldan out of its troubles, but only in order to have revenge, is not a man I want to put on the throne.

Yes, when I chose to spare Loghain I still had to side with Anora in the end. That he was demanding to be King in order to kill Loghain was the only reason why I could go through with it. Naturally I think he's a better ruler than Anora but grabbing the crown like that is still not a good idea.

Modifié par klarabella, 03 avril 2010 - 07:41 .

[LadyZaria]

klarabella wrote...

CalJones wrote...
AOPotter - yes, Alistair's lack of leadership skill is also the reason he never gets to be sole king in any of my games. Perhaps in time he could, but time's a commodity we don't have after the Landsmeet. He compliments Anora rather well, though, since each has the qualities the other one lacks. (I can't comment on female Couslands since everyone plays theirs differently).
Of course, it's also perfectly legitiamate for a power-hungry PC to put a weak Alistair on the throne and then insist on being his wife or chancellor. But let's face it, we're not doing that because he's a strong leader.

His leadership skill is heavily depending on how you play your PC. Like everything else it is up to you how you play your PC.

You think your PC is full of awesome and any kind of criticism at his/her decisions is sacrilege? Have it your way then.
You play your PC as a reluctant leader out of circumstances who is merely the voice of the group while often looking to Alistair for advice? Also possible to roleplay.

The latter would have a different opinion on his leadership skills, even though Alistair himself doesn't see that he is in fact leading the leader. Not to mention the PCs influence can bring Alistair to recognize his abilities and be a great King without anyone's further assistance.

CalJones wrote...
I do agree with AOPotter that an Alistair who doesn't want to be king out of duty or any desire to lead Fereldan out of its troubles, but only in order to have revenge, is not a man I want to put on the throne.

Yes, when I chose to spare Loghain I still had to side with Anora in the end. That he was demanding to be King in order to kill Loghain was the only reason why I could go through with it. Naturally I think he's a better ruler than Anora but grabbing the crown like that is still not a good idea.

I agree, it really depends on how you play your character.

Alistair's Leadership: As said, depends on if your PC leapt at the leadership role, or if they relied heavily on Alistair and other members' input.

Alistair's Outburst: Purely the desire for revenge, with no thought to anything else, or did his desire for revenge simply give his pure desire for justice an unseemly vehemence and cause him to make an error in approach.

Loghain's Redepmtion: Depends on how much stock you put in his comments about the Grey Wardens at Ostragar (Cailan calls them "conspiracy theories") and weighing whether he was trying to act in the best interests of Fereleden and it just didn't work out as he hoped, or was he making his own power grab.

[sylvanaerie]

MutantSpleen wrote...

Taritu wrote...

Killing Loghain is nothing but justice. The man has committed awful crimes. This is most clear if you're a noble or city elf, but every warden knows it. Everything Howe did he did with Loghain's permission. There may be reasons to let him live, but it is an injustice, and Alistair is right about that.

As for RTO, I don't buy the henchman's line about how Cailan knew it would be a loss. That requires me to believe that Cailan is a complete moron, since it wasn't a battle he had to fight. He could have simply waited behind the walls for reinforcements--either from Orlais, or from Eamon.

Sorry Cailan was a complete moron. Talk to Duncan prior to the battle. Duncan does NOT want to fight that battle at that time, he thinks its foolish and they should wait for the Orlesians. Duncan knows they are outnumbered and there are not enough Wardens.  Calian would not listen to Duncan's advice and wait.

At the war council prior to the battle Cailan must have come around or was starting to. It is Cailan who suggests waiting for the Orlesians to get additional numbers but Loghain shoots that down. 

[Clendyx]

What's wrong with a scary wall of text? I can't monologue once in a while?

[CalJones]

I think Cailan brought up the Orlesians there to get a rise out of Loghain, that's all.

[sylvanaerie]

CalJones wrote...

I think Cailan brought up the Orlesians there to get a rise out of Loghain, that's all.

Not I. Considering he was in correspondence with Orlais and had called for them to come I think he was serious.  Plus admittedly it had the added benefit of tweaking Loghain's melon for Cailan to mention them I am sure.  Really they understood how to push each other's buttons intimately Loghain being an "Uncle" figure to Cailan.  

[SurelyForth]

Alistair's Outburst: Purely the desire for revenge, with no thought to anything else, or did his desire for revenge simply give his pure desire for justice an unseemly vehemence and cause him to make an error in approach.

It's a combination of wanting justice done, a personal need to see Duncan's death avenged and the opinion that Loghain cannot be trusted to not turn on the Wardens again the moment there is no longer a sword at his throat. Alistair is absolutely not in the wrong to demand Loghain's death: it is the default sentence for any one of the crimes Loghain committed.

[Sarah1281]

What's wrong with a scary wall of text? I can't monologue once in a while?

Monologuing's fine but scary walls of text are difficult to read so paragraphs would be more effectve.

It's a combination of wanting justice done, a personal need to see Duncan's death avenged and the opinion that Loghain cannot be trusted to not turn on the Wardens again the moment there is no longer a sword at his throat. Alistair is absolutely not in the wrong to demand Loghain's death: it is the default sentence for any one of the crimes Loghain committed.

I have to admit: Anora did a great job of painting Alistair wanting her father dead as being selfish and against Ferelden's best interest when we know that she only wants to keep him alive because he's her father so she is probably being more selfish in the situation (and yet enough of a politician to carry on if she loses with no difference except refusing to marry the man who murdered her father and splattered her with his blood, which I don't think anyone can blame her for).

[MutantSpleen]

sylvanaerie wrote...

MutantSpleen wrote...

Taritu wrote...

Killing Loghain is nothing but justice. The man has committed awful crimes. This is most clear if you're a noble or city elf, but every warden knows it. Everything Howe did he did with Loghain's permission. There may be reasons to let him live, but it is an injustice, and Alistair is right about that.

As for RTO, I don't buy the henchman's line about how Cailan knew it would be a loss. That requires me to believe that Cailan is a complete moron, since it wasn't a battle he had to fight. He could have simply waited behind the walls for reinforcements--either from Orlais, or from Eamon.

Sorry Cailan was a complete moron. Talk to Duncan prior to the battle. Duncan does NOT want to fight that battle at that time, he thinks its foolish and they should wait for the Orlesians. Duncan knows they are outnumbered and there are not enough Wardens.  Calian would not listen to Duncan's advice and wait.

At the war council prior to the battle Cailan must have come around or was starting to. It is Cailan who suggests waiting for the Orlesians to get additional numbers but Loghain shoots that down. 

Well of course Loghain shoots it down, he has an intense hatred of Orlais, with good reason. It would be out of character for him not to. Cailan was just egging on Loghain in my opinion, he knew Loghain would protest but he did not have any intention of waiting, it would diminish his glory.  As Loghain said later; Calian's vanity caused his death. Loghain told him NOT to fight on the front lines. Cailan had to be the hero, he wanted a grand tale sung about him by the bards.  He was a vainglorious fool.  A likeable fool but a fool none the less.

[Addai]

SurelyForth wrote...

Alistair's Outburst: Purely the desire for revenge, with no thought to anything else, or did his desire for revenge simply give his pure desire for justice an unseemly vehemence and cause him to make an error in approach.

It's a combination of wanting justice done, a personal need to see Duncan's death avenged and the opinion that Loghain cannot be trusted to not turn on the Wardens again the moment there is no longer a sword at his throat. Alistair is absolutely not in the wrong to demand Loghain's death: it is the default sentence for any one of the crimes Loghain committed.

Absolutely.  Is Loghain's sentencing Eamon, Alistair and the Warden to execution after you lose the Landsmeet "purely the desire for revenge" or "unseemly vehemence"?  From whichever perspective you look at it, the other faction has committed treason and represents an existential threat to the country.  When quashing a rebellion, you do not leave its leaders alive.  The underlings, certainly- accept their surrender and give them a chance to swear fealty and earn back trust.  But leaving the leaders alive is suicidal, and when the nation is under such grave threat, irresponsible.

As to Alistair's emotions towards Loghain:  He displays no more of a "tantrum" than Anora does regarding Loghain's fate.  People want to feel sympathy for Anora, but Loghain's actions led to the death of all the family Alistair has ever known.  If you arrange for Anora and Alistair to marry, she will refuse if Alistair is the one who carries out Loghain's execution, even though her own ambition may have led to Loghain's defeat.  Her refusal to swear fealty to Alistair even after the Landsmeet has decided for him is nothing but pure spite.  Fault Alistair for zeal where Loghain is concerned, but Anora's power-hungry manipulations don't exactly speak well for her character.

[MutantSpleen]

The thing is Loghain didn't start the civil war the petty Ferelden nobles did. Loghain declared him self regent, not king.



Regent: One who rules during the minority, absence, or disability of a monarch.



(Which implies a temporary position until the crisis is over.)



Bann Teagan was the rabble rouser immediately started to stir up the other nobles. Loghain was trying to bring order to the realm in the wake of Cailan's death to quickly rebuild the troops lost at Ostagar to face the darkspawn. The other petty nobles wouldn't hear of it, they still for some unknown reason considered Loghain a commoner. Even though Maric had made him a Teryn, highest noble in the land. Just because he was a new noble does not mean he is not a noble.



Say Cailan had died and Loghain had not stepped in. What would have happened? Arl Eamon would be King? Would everyone accept that? I doubt it. He was only brother to the deceased Queen, I don't see his claim any more legitimate than the father of the current Queen, who only declared himself regent. Alistair? Would anyone have accepted him as King, a bastard, without the Grey Warden's endorsement? Also what of Anora? Shouldn't she by right remain the Queen, why did there need to be a King? Should she not have continued to rule? Weren't all the nobles who rebelled against the rightful Queen committing treason? It was all bull****, those nobles would still have torn the country apart with or without Loghain's involvement.

[Sarah1281]

Anora wasn't the rightful Queen. She was the wife of the previous King and, more specifically, the Princess-consort. Cailan caused all of the problems about succession by not naming anyone his heir. Had he said Anora was his heir and that was approved then there wouldn't have been all those problems after he died (but Loghain may have taken him out earlier).



Regardless of how silly it may seem, Loghain explains the situation about his nobility. He may have been a Teyrn but all of his ancestors were farmers. He was seen as an upstart that they tolerated because Maric insisted on it and because he was a great general who helped free them from the Orlesians. They could even accep his daughter joining that of the royal line for a new heir...which never happened. Queen in her own right, though? And with the rumors that she was barren? The Landsmeet needed to be called. If she, as Cailan's widow, was the rightful Queen then Alistair would NOT have a stronger claim to the throne then Anora because she was already on it. If Rowan and Maric had had another child that was kidnapped and presumed dead but he came back to Ferelden after the Blight, he would not have a stronger claim than Alistair and/or Anora even though he was legitimate because someone else was already in charge. If Anora was the legal ruler, why would she need a regent? Anora was of age, not absent, and not disabled. Loghain had to take over the regency so Anora wouldn't be deposed.



I don't believe that Teagan started the Civil War. He may have been the first to denounce Loghain, but there were plenty of questoins about Ostagar even then and he was just upset about his nephew. He left the politics to Eamon, remember? There were many reasons the nobles fought the Civil War. Some may have believed Loghain killed Cailan, some might not have liked commoners on the throne, and some might not have liked the way Loghain appeared to gain power afterwards and what he did with his regency. Yes, some nobles sensed an opportunity to secure more power but if Anora were really the rightful Queen there would be no opportunities. Sure she had A claim to it but she needed to be confirmed by the Landsmeet. When you talk to her she says she wants your support for the bid she intends to make to be a ruler in her own right, not that she wants your support to stop people from trying to take her throne away.

[MutantSpleen]

So basically it comes down to the other nobles didn't think the MacTirs were good enough for the Throne. So Cailan didn't declare Anora his heir? Where was this stated? I never heard her called a princess-consort, they always called her Queen. If that were the case then how come the Grey Warden can be married to her and she is Queen and he is the prince-consort? I guess the Landsmeet changed the arrangement. I always assumed she made Loghain regent because she felt he would serve best as regent during the Blight being a military genius and hero, as regent he could more easily rally the country together to put up a decent defense. In theory, of course the nobles didn't want that they'd rather start a civil war in the middle of a Blight.



Once again, more problems caused by Cailan's idiocy. "Let me go fight a darkspawn Horde on the front lines without declaring an heir, even though I know I am going into a losing battle."

[Sarah1281]

Eamon kept bringing up the no heir thing. If Anora were his heir, Eamon would probably still freak but for different reasons and Cailan's deah would not plunge the country into chaos. Both the ruling monarch and their spouse are called King and Queen but the spouse is the prince or princess-consort. Alistair never calls the HNF that but if the HNM seems too power-hungry, Anora keeps reminding him of that. Anora was Cailan's princess-consort because it was not her throne but his, like if Alistair gets engaged to the HNF but sacrifices himself, Anora becomes Queen instead. In order for it to be her throne, the Landsmeet needs to confirm it or Alistair - who was confirmed - needs to declare her his heir which, if hardened, he tells her before locking her up.



At the Landsmeet either Anora or Alistair is declared ruling monarch but if they marry then it's a somewhat unusual situation where they are both ruling monarchs. This whole situation could have been avoided if there was a Landsmeet called while the Couslands were dead, Teagan wanted nothing to do with politics, an Eamon was poisoned but clearly Anora and/or Loghain didn't trust that she would be confirmed Queen. And Loghain didn't need to be regent to defend the country, Anora could have just named him commander of her armies and stayed out of it.

[CalJones]

Not quite true re: the titles - (cos I'm English I know this) - if the heir to the throne is male, he becomes king, and any woman he marries is called queen. If he dies, then the heir (and not his wife the queen) inherits. When George VI died, his wife became the Queen Mother and his daughter, Elizabeth II, inherited the throne.

Now if the heir is female, as Elizabeth II is, then the man she marries becomes Prince (even if he is a noble). Hence Prince Phillip. I don't know why it is thus, but there it is.

So yes, Anora is queen - but she is not Queen. If she and Cailan had a child, then the child would inherit the throne and a regent would be declared (possibly Anora, though it could equally be Eamon or Loghain) until the child was of age. However, since there is no child, an no obvious heir, then we have the whole problem of who will inherit.



Anyway, MutantSpleen - you're not wrong about Cailan. Given he was intent on charging off into battle, he could have at least declared an heir.Perhaps he thought he was indestructible. Whoops.

[Addai]

MutantSpleen wrote...

The thing is Loghain didn't start the civil war the petty Ferelden nobles did. Loghain declared him self regent, not king.

He had no authority to do that, and certainly not to then proceed to act as tyrant across the land.