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Dear Bioware, A Comment on Military Protocol


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#1
Roelandtstorme

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Mass Effect 2 is a great game.  I did want to mention something for future reference though.

In a certain character's introductory conversation with Shepard in the AI Core, which is excellent by the way, there is a guard on Shepard's right.  And there is a problem.

Please note that I am a serviceman, and our rules and regulations are strict, clear, and inborn into all of us in every branch of the military.

First of all, the Guard in this scene calls, "Ten Hut" when Shepard starts to speak.  "Attention" is a command, and there is no one for the Guard to be addressing.  Calling HIMSELF to Attention is like getting up from your couch to walk to the kitchen and screaming FORWARD HARCH!  You don't need to command yourself with marching orders when you're alone.  An entering officer may wonder why you are calling him to attention and, glancing over his shoulder, you better hope he sees another officer that outranks him.  Standing immediately to attention in this case, however, would be appropriate.
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Second, and far more serious, the Guard salutes with the wrong hand!  That's MAJOR bad mojo in the military.  If Shepard were real, the poor guard would receive an immediate, loud, and quite severe reprimand.  Such things are so intensly trained into us that there is litereally no way that any active serviceman would make such an error accidentally, no more than you would sit down and accidentally start writing with the wrong hand.
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Finally, in many cases in the game, civilians are seen saluting.  It is considered inappropriate, and in some places (like my squadron in Okinawa) it's considered rude.  It could be argued that, being the far future, military protocol may well have changed, which is unlikely since military protocol, at least in the matters we have discussed, haven't changed at all in the last hundred years.  A theoretical merging of nations into deep space (the Salute is different in many nations than the US for example) may have resulted in minor variations, but the fundamental basics, some of which we've discussed, would very likely not change.  Since militar protocol isn't consistent in ME2, that is therefore not a solid explanation. 
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I bring this to your attention with no condemnation at all since civilian game programmers aren't any more trained or adept in military protocol than they are at dancing...which is why dancing in almost every modern game is incredibly, incredibly bad (hehe).  Research, however is a choice.  It's clear when the research is ignored.
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Civilian's are likely going to respond to this post with various levels of "Dude, it's no big deal," or "Get over it...it's just a game," because they don't understand how important military courtesy is to us grunts.  But we military personnel notice such things like nails on a chalk board.  We grit our teeth every time a TV or movie serviceman enters a building with their hat on.  We can't help it.  It's how we were trained. That's why all the good military shows have "Miltary Advisors" in the credits.  You guys should get one in time for ME3.  I'll happily volunteer if you can't find anyone.
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Just wanted to bring it to your attention in the event that no one else has bothered.


Regards,

Roelandt
Retired Serviceman

Modifié par Roelandtstorme, 01 avril 2010 - 11:26 .


#2
Shockwave81

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I'm a civvie, but I really appreciate the information you've provided. Very interesting.



It'd be good if the devs did pay attention to this kind of detail. Hopefully your suggestions will be noted.

#3
Benji1306

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Hopefully the devs will take a notice of this post. I didn't know this myself, since I haven't been in the military, but it was good insight anyway.

Modifié par Benji1306, 01 avril 2010 - 11:35 .


#4
MoonChildTheUnholy

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I can see your points as i was in the military once too, but one that stands out because its like this in my country is the salute with no hat on, that is very bad, civilian salutes are even worse, but of course this game isn´t perfect and we know it.

We can also try and think that everything changed over the years, and everyone can do what they want :D.

#5
xI extremist Ix

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This ship and crew is Cerberus. They are a private military, couldn't they have their own protocol?

#6
Darth_Trethon

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Darn glitches. 175 years in the future everythign you know today is long expited and iffelevant just the way that things from 175 years ago are expired and irrelevant.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 01 avril 2010 - 11:51 .


#7
Haiyato

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It's no big deal.Image IPB  I only kid of course....

I agree with you. No matter how small the detail, if it is done incorrectly someone from a military background will pick up on the the little things that may not seem important in the civilian world such as the incorrect salute and the call to attention being said as "Ten Hut" .
 
You sir have a great eye in catching that Image IPB

What branch were you in btw? I was a Bubblehead a long time ago, U.S.N Submarine Squadron 7 Fast Attack all the way.

#8
Darth Drago

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Interesting information. Since I was in the Navy years ago I should have spotted these right away.



-Just to be sure, what civilians are you referring to?

#9
Darth_Trethon

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"military protocol" differs from branch to branch and from country to country. The "Alliance Navy" in ME is NOT the US Navy of today nor is it the UK Navy or whatever other navy you have out there nor does bioware have to give a s___ about today's standards of any particular branch or country's protocol.

#10
AphoticCosmos

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Interesting, but it's not a military sim, and I think such concerns over minor military details are fairly irrelevant.

Besides, it's 170 years in the future, things have changed . . . this is not the US military in 2010. The Systems Alliance is independent of the traditions of any of Earth's national militaries.

Modifié par AphoticCosmos, 01 avril 2010 - 11:51 .


#11
Darth_Trethon

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AphoticCosmos wrote...

Interesting, but it's not a military sim, and I think such concerns over minor military details are fairly irrelevant.

Besides, it's 170 years in the future, things have changed . . . this is not the US military in 2010. The Systems Alliance is independent of the traditions of any of Earth's national militaries.


Why don't we go around correcting today's standards because they differ from cavemen military protocol. That's a brilliant idea.

#12
Roelandtstorme

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xI extremist Ix wrote...

This ship and crew is Cerberus. They are a private military, couldn't they have their own protocol?




Yes, extremist, but since their protocol is both not established, and inconsistent then that is not a logical explanation as I said. "The Guard" in the AI Core is the only entity in the game that salutes with the wrong hand. Therefore, no, they don't have their own protocol. Even more importantly, if you talked to crew members ingame (not the companions, the crew), most of them (all?) are former Alliance. Once learned, it's unreasonable for a military person to suggest it's been casually unlearned.



However, I understand that, as a civilian this is a trivial matter to you, and I think that's perfectly okay. Most of us understand that civilians don't care about such things. That's what civilians are for! Hehe.



They outnumber us too...hehe.

#13
Don Moar

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Hey,



Thanks for the information, Roelandt.



As you said, making those kinds of mistakes probably doesn't even register for most people, but for those who do they really stand out.



For example, the original line for Joker's mayday call during the game's opening sequence did not conform to international protocol and, being a bit of an aviation enthusiast, it really grated on me every time I heard it. As a result, I filed a bug and even though the line still doesn't conform 100%, it's a lot closer than the original. Now, I doubt anyone without an interest in aviation would have even noticed the problem, but hopefully those with such an interest appreciate that it's a close approximation.



I can't say we'll get it all right in ME3, but I'll pass your comments along.





Don M

#14
Darth_Trethon

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Roelandtstorme wrote...

xI extremist Ix wrote...
This ship and crew is Cerberus. They are a private military, couldn't they have their own protocol?


Yes, extremist, but since their protocol is both not established, and inconsistent then that is not a logical explanation as I said. "The Guard" in the AI Core is the only entity in the game that salutes with the wrong hand. Therefore, no, they don't have their own protocol. Even more importantly, if you talked to crew members ingame (not the companions, the crew), most of them (all?) are former Alliance. Once learned, it's unreasonable for a military person to suggest it's been casually unlearned.

However, I understand that, as a civilian this is a trivial matter to you, and I think that's perfectly okay. Most of us understand that civilians don't care about such things. That's what civilians are for! Hehe.

They outnumber us too...hehe.


Wrong hand??? Are you that stuck in ONE way to refuse to realize that 175 years in the future we are nothing but an expired past. Are you so blind as to REFUSE to uderstand that diferent nations salute differently and that 175 years in the future they are not representing any specific nation.

I have to break it to you but protocol CHANGES and you cannot expect or even make a remote argument that an unrelated military service should follow YOUR protoclos of today 175 years in the future.

You have NO argument.

#15
llinsane1ll

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Good thread. Devs should take it into consideration. Unless maybe this is how the Canadian military does it?

#16
Darth_Trethon

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Don Moar wrote...

Hey,

Thanks for the information, Roelandt.

As you said, making those kinds of mistakes probably doesn't even register for most people, but for those who do they really stand out.

For example, the original line for Joker's mayday call during the game's opening sequence did not conform to international protocol and, being a bit of an aviation enthusiast, it really grated on me every time I heard it. As a result, I filed a bug and even though the line still doesn't conform 100%, it's a lot closer than the original. Now, I doubt anyone without an interest in aviation would have even noticed the problem, but hopefully those with such an interest appreciate that it's a close approximation.

I can't say we'll get it all right in ME3, but I'll pass your comments along.


Don M


Hey technically they're all wrong because Napoleon had different protocols, best adapt to those. Or even better cavemen military protocols, I hear they saluted with their feet.

Are you trying to say the US conquered the world and forced their protocols on humanity's Navy? I am absolutely INSULTED and offended.

Modifié par Darth_Trethon, 02 avril 2010 - 12:06 .


#17
Roelandtstorme

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Darth_Trethon wrote...

"military protocol" differs from branch to branch...


I expected a civilian to go nuts over this.  I didn't realize just how Nuts!  That's some serious spam, Darth!  He's so unreasonably irked he ripped into Bioware posters polite response!  

Respectfully, you are mistaken Darth.  The only variations in, say Navy from Army, would be cosmetic elements like "protocol on a ship," or "protocol while armed and armored."  Everything we've discussed is identical.  They have to be.  Various branches frequently share bases and battlefields.   I don't begrudge that of you, however.  You have no way of knowing any more than I can tell you how a model should properly walk down a runway wearing spiked heels.  It's not my area of expertice.  hehe.  You should however avoid arguing points you know nothing about.  It's like running your windshield wipers on a sunny day:  Everyone can see you're a dummy.

You do seem a bit angry about this though.  The line, "Lighten up, Francis" from Stripes comes to mind.

Your point (editing out your pointless ire) that Bioware doesn't seem to care, is the reason for my post.  Thank you for reiterating that.

Modifié par Roelandtstorme, 02 avril 2010 - 12:09 .


#18
Darth_Trethon

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Roelandtstorme wrote...

Darth_Trethon wrote...

"military protocol" differs from branch to branch...


I expected a civilian to go nuts over this.  I didn't realize just how Nuts!  That's some serious spam, Darth! 

Respectfully, you are mistaken Darth.  The only variations in, say Navy from Army, would be cosmetic elements like "protocol on a ship," or "protocol while armed and armored."  Everything we've discussed is identical.  They have to be.  Various branches frequently share bases and battlefields.   I don't begrudge that of you, however.  You have no way of knowing any more than I can tell you how a model should properly walk down a runway wearing spiked heels.  It's not my area of expertice.  hehe.  You should however avoid arguing points you know nothing about.  It's like running your windshield wipers on a sunny day:  Everyone can see you're a dummy.

You do seem a bit angry about this though.  The line, "Lighten up, Francis" from Stripes comes to mind.

Your point (editing out your pointless ire) that Bioware doesn't seem to care, is the reason for my post.  Thank you for reiterating that.


Oh cut the BS I was 5 years in the US Marines and I can tell you that our protocol was vastly different from unit to unit and place to place. No tot mention that that is NOT the US Navy in ME nor is it the British navy nor is it in any way tied to the ways the US military does things at any point oin time.

#19
LKR79

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@  Roelandt
I understand how you feel. My husband is in the millitary and if he had played the game he would have been much more harsh about it than you. Image IPB

Modifié par LKR79, 02 avril 2010 - 12:16 .


#20
Don Moar

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@Darth_Trethon



Actually, I don't think Napolean or cavemen had protocols for making a "Mayday" call on their radios while in flight.



Also, the protocol for "Mayday" is international, so by definition Brits, Yanks, Canucks, etc. should be following the same format, providing similar information in roughly the same order.





Don M

#21
Darth Drago

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Congrats, Roelandtstorme you got the attention of the developers with this one!

Yes it is just a game but I’m sure most developers will try and make an effort to get things accurate.

-Lets see, in just the US military, I’m sure basic military protocols have been the same since they were first formed back in 1775. I’m sure the British military is just the same, set in the same standard protocols. It not likely that military basics would just change in about 200 years in the future. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Salute

Modifié par Darth Drago, 02 avril 2010 - 12:15 .


#22
Roelandtstorme

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Really, Darth? YOU were a marine?



What was your unit? What was your rank? Five years? In what ways was YOUR unit's protocal VASTLY different from any other Corp unit? We really want to know! Why only five years? Did you get dishonorably discharged because of your flagrant disregard for military proceedure?



Sorry to everyone. This troll is a buckethead. I've said my case. Rant on Darth. You'll keep the thread bumped, and since you're a troll, you won't influence public opinon. Good luck...uh...marine.

#23
Darth_Trethon

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LKR79 wrote...

@  Roelandt
I understand how you feel. My husband is in the millitary and if he had played the game he would have been much harsh about it than you. Image IPB


Except none of it bears relevance on the future on a completely different military faction not representing just one country and in fiction of all things. I served 5 years in the US Marines with very strict protocols but one of the things we are taught are NOT to expect the same of other military branches or of military organizations of different nations. Things are EXTREMELY different between nations and the only thing that is completely off the wall wrong here is criticizing them by standards that will have long expired by then due to the drastic change in fighting style, culture and enemy culture.

#24
Darth_Trethon

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Roelandtstorme wrote...

Really, Darth? YOU were a marine?

What was your unit? What was your rank? Five years? In what ways was YOUR unit's protocal VASTLY different from any other Corp unit? We really want to know! Why only five years? Did you get dishonorably discharged because of your flagrant disregard for military proceedure?

Sorry to everyone. This troll is a buckethead. I've said my case. Rant on Darth. You'll keep the thread bumped, and since you're a troll, you won't influence public opinon. Good luck...uh...marine.


My contract is expired and I did my service honorably with plenty of decorationtion both personal(NAM) and unit(PUC, CAR. etc.) The rest isn't your business. I no longer answer to any rank structure as my IRR time is over and as a citizen I am fully entitled to my first ammendament rights.

#25
Roelandtstorme

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Now back to talking to a Reasonable Person.

Don Moar wrote...

Hey,

Thanks for the information, Roelandt.

I can't say we'll get it all right in ME3, but I'll pass your comments along.

Don M


Ultimately, it's not really important to get "everything right."  Who among us is without flaw?  It would honor me, and I believe most servicemen that you would even give it consideration.

Thank you.